High-Cost Condos, Low-Cost Labor—and Threats of Violence to Union Organizers.
In this age of housing gluttony, high-rise builders sink to new lows. All the while lone "Condo Mayor" becomes a commandment for the city's elite: Michael Bloomberg—live like him!
By Tom Robbins. Village Voice
So what - we are supposed to feel bad because a few developers want to play hard ball against union slimeballs? For years the unions used the same tactics to destroy, extort and punish honest businessmen. Go ask my grandpa whos winning bid for a strain station in Chicago was anounced in the paper in under his name in the obituaries.
Dont think this union shit is cute or progressive. its mob. M-O-B. Its a cancer that destroys everything it touches.
P.S. what makes you think you should be making more as an architectural intern working pt than a steel worker putting together beams and floors on a 50 story building with very dangerous conditions and getting paid only $17 ph where he should be getting $38 ph if not exploited?
you guys go on and on about low wages here all the time but quick to attack somebody who gets exploited.
Steel erectors in NYC dont get just $17/ Hr. Steel erector laborers might, but theirs is a rather grunt work position. That article is misinformative and out to push a business = bad, workers of the world unite = good agenda. Non-Union fair wage companies actually pay their employees more if they work year round. many union construction workers suffer long bouts of unemployment. They dont tell you that either.
ep,
i also thought the article was a cat fight. but it was worth of reading nevertheless. just from the point of view that there is this labor element involved behind all those shiny projects and architectural triumphs we like to champion .
my uncle, a socialist union organizer in istanbul, was prisoned and tortured by the military government in 1980. unions are not mobs in my background.
folks, let's think about this consciously for a moment although most of the times, things happen without explanations. thinking black and white only leads to one outcome. there are shades of gray and also all kinds of colors outside that linear scale of degree. so i am just going to give you counter arguments.
architects are not exactly secure professionals either, and there are always possibilities to be placed out of the game. thinking about immigrant poverty, it is true that they are much better off in the u.s. than most other underdeveolped countries in a sense that they can own stuffs which are not available in poor countries. farmers in the u.s. are not exactly having more fun, and we all are exposed to the magic of urban lives with fancy objects of desire. if you ask anyone making minimum wages in the cities to move out to the farm lands, i wonder how many of them would make that move. but at the same time, if an employer use that ultimatum to control, it is not difficult to imagine that violent confrontations can occur on wider scale, but more than that, as prof. koolhaas pointed out, we might be heading toward unsustainable future, which i think is more important issue and am in opposition to destructive developments out of fear without having answers to apparent deadends.
i am not talking about it from any particular religion's point of view, but devils seem to exist everywhere while god cannot be seen anywhere. since this forum is for architects, instead of us getting involved too much with politics yet although architecture is a very political business, maybe we should continue to focus more on knowledge aspect of it for the time being instead of jumping on the divisive debates.
i like some of the projects going up. specially denari's, et al, from architectural point of view...
but certainly, there is this gap between who can afford them, who builds them, who develops them and who talk about them.
i really would question selling a condo with maximum profits and paying off minimally to people who build them. if we talk about dubai in the extreme, we should also talk about our own back yard. making 15 dollars per hour working in a risky situation and feeding a family in a place like new york is not too far of a comperasant to dubai.
"my uncle, a socialist union organizer in istanbul, was prisoned and tortured by the military government in 1980. unions are not mobs in my background."
Orhan thats insane. If we are talking America the lowest of the wages are still great compared to international standards. But certainly the laborers in istanbuul or China or heaven help them in India and such, need some sort of organizing.
Unions in America were needed and conditions were deplorable third world like 100 years ago - but labor morphed into a monster in the 1940s and 50's. Its like apples and Oranges.
I know its not funny but I have to ask - " So, have you ever been in a Turkish prison Billy?"
I could care less about the smelly people who builds my luxurious high rise uber-fashionable starchitect authored condo. If I can pay 2-3-4% less, I say go for it. If the welder don't like it, let him go on welfare.
That's why I'm willing to pay a premium for living on a higher floor: I don't care who carts my Whole Foods take out leftovers away, just as long as it disappears. It is simply Not. My. Problem.
Same goes for living wage.
Global warming: baby, I can buy your carbon credits. Drive your own fem hybrid. I am not giving the BMW 7 away. V8 baby!
And so on...
Is a less ambiguous class system really all that bad?
Oh, and Neil Denari's make over? Love it, love it, LOVE IT!
hey if it wasnt for unions. there would be no forty hour workweek. oh wait we're architects. never mind the forty hour week part. i'll find something we can relate to and check back with you.
a few days ago, in south korea, there was an agreement between unions and commitees to raise the minimum wage 6.1% which is not bad at all if inflation can be kept to a reasonable rate, although the wage is still reletively low and comes out to be 4,000 won, about $3.84. although the inflation rate according to the census shows that it is fairly stable and has been kept around 3% during the last several years, after i came back to korea, i was suprised that the commodity costs are higher than those of the u.s. in general. the only thing that might offset this gravity is the housing/family structure. most families don't necessarily have to pay high rents as the folks in the u.s do because you have an option of living with parents after marriage, or one person can obtain a minimum dwelling of one room with about 200 s.f. in the city areas for $100-300 and so forth. the major issue is really that of quality of living including luxuries, good foods, social networks, leisure activities, even freedom in daily lives. a problem with living with parents or in a minimum dwelling is that you can never have a dinner party with friends comfortably in daily basis. that sort of everyday pleasure is taken away if a young person is not well off enough to own a nice apartment, which is a rather elitist idea because owning an apartment is not cheap. in nice areas in seoul, it costs as much as new york or tokyo in millions of dollars. in local cities, it is not as expensive as in seoul, but cuturally, it is much weaker than seoul and hence not as attractive to young professionals. you can pretty much assume that all the elites are in seoul. where does this trend leads to? environments. not well thought out designs but rather quick prototype apartment highrisers popping up everywhere in premium sites. even worse, destructive developments on the precious natural environments simply because you have to choose between sustaining market i.e. the increase in equity vs. sustaining environment, between urban ecology and natural ecology. i can assure you that balancing things in developing countries is much more dangerous art, and i have to continue to emphasize that in the process of globalization, market is not the only thing that counts.
Jun 29, 08 5:12 pm ·
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So what - we are supposed to feel bad because a few developers want to play hard ball against union slimeballs? For years the unions used the same tactics to destroy, extort and punish honest businessmen. Go ask my grandpa whos winning bid for a strain station in Chicago was anounced in the paper in under his name in the obituaries.
Dont think this union shit is cute or progressive. its mob. M-O-B. Its a cancer that destroys everything it touches.
And the village Voice is about as relevant as the hairs on my taint
"built with laborers from mexico and beyond working for less than $17 an hour."
WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!
HA, we paid our mexican slaves $10 an hour and we were just doing renovations!
P.S. I was also paid $10 an hour as an intern working for the construction company. Now I make $15 working part-time as an intern for an arch firm.
P.S. what makes you think you should be making more as an architectural intern working pt than a steel worker putting together beams and floors on a 50 story building with very dangerous conditions and getting paid only $17 ph where he should be getting $38 ph if not exploited?
you guys go on and on about low wages here all the time but quick to attack somebody who gets exploited.
Steel erectors in NYC dont get just $17/ Hr. Steel erector laborers might, but theirs is a rather grunt work position. That article is misinformative and out to push a business = bad, workers of the world unite = good agenda. Non-Union fair wage companies actually pay their employees more if they work year round. many union construction workers suffer long bouts of unemployment. They dont tell you that either.
ep,
i also thought the article was a cat fight. but it was worth of reading nevertheless. just from the point of view that there is this labor element involved behind all those shiny projects and architectural triumphs we like to champion .
my uncle, a socialist union organizer in istanbul, was prisoned and tortured by the military government in 1980. unions are not mobs in my background.
folks, let's think about this consciously for a moment although most of the times, things happen without explanations. thinking black and white only leads to one outcome. there are shades of gray and also all kinds of colors outside that linear scale of degree. so i am just going to give you counter arguments.
architects are not exactly secure professionals either, and there are always possibilities to be placed out of the game. thinking about immigrant poverty, it is true that they are much better off in the u.s. than most other underdeveolped countries in a sense that they can own stuffs which are not available in poor countries. farmers in the u.s. are not exactly having more fun, and we all are exposed to the magic of urban lives with fancy objects of desire. if you ask anyone making minimum wages in the cities to move out to the farm lands, i wonder how many of them would make that move. but at the same time, if an employer use that ultimatum to control, it is not difficult to imagine that violent confrontations can occur on wider scale, but more than that, as prof. koolhaas pointed out, we might be heading toward unsustainable future, which i think is more important issue and am in opposition to destructive developments out of fear without having answers to apparent deadends.
i am not talking about it from any particular religion's point of view, but devils seem to exist everywhere while god cannot be seen anywhere. since this forum is for architects, instead of us getting involved too much with politics yet although architecture is a very political business, maybe we should continue to focus more on knowledge aspect of it for the time being instead of jumping on the divisive debates.
i like some of the projects going up. specially denari's, et al, from architectural point of view...
but certainly, there is this gap between who can afford them, who builds them, who develops them and who talk about them.
i really would question selling a condo with maximum profits and paying off minimally to people who build them. if we talk about dubai in the extreme, we should also talk about our own back yard. making 15 dollars per hour working in a risky situation and feeding a family in a place like new york is not too far of a comperasant to dubai.
"my uncle, a socialist union organizer in istanbul, was prisoned and tortured by the military government in 1980. unions are not mobs in my background."
Orhan thats insane. If we are talking America the lowest of the wages are still great compared to international standards. But certainly the laborers in istanbuul or China or heaven help them in India and such, need some sort of organizing.
Unions in America were needed and conditions were deplorable third world like 100 years ago - but labor morphed into a monster in the 1940s and 50's. Its like apples and Oranges.
I know its not funny but I have to ask - " So, have you ever been in a Turkish prison Billy?"
Finally, some sanity in the comments.
I could care less about the smelly people who builds my luxurious high rise uber-fashionable starchitect authored condo. If I can pay 2-3-4% less, I say go for it. If the welder don't like it, let him go on welfare.
That's why I'm willing to pay a premium for living on a higher floor: I don't care who carts my Whole Foods take out leftovers away, just as long as it disappears. It is simply Not. My. Problem.
Same goes for living wage.
Global warming: baby, I can buy your carbon credits. Drive your own fem hybrid. I am not giving the BMW 7 away. V8 baby!
And so on...
Is a less ambiguous class system really all that bad?
Oh, and Neil Denari's make over? Love it, love it, LOVE IT!
hey if it wasnt for unions. there would be no forty hour workweek. oh wait we're architects. never mind the forty hour week part. i'll find something we can relate to and check back with you.
a few days ago, in south korea, there was an agreement between unions and commitees to raise the minimum wage 6.1% which is not bad at all if inflation can be kept to a reasonable rate, although the wage is still reletively low and comes out to be 4,000 won, about $3.84. although the inflation rate according to the census shows that it is fairly stable and has been kept around 3% during the last several years, after i came back to korea, i was suprised that the commodity costs are higher than those of the u.s. in general. the only thing that might offset this gravity is the housing/family structure. most families don't necessarily have to pay high rents as the folks in the u.s do because you have an option of living with parents after marriage, or one person can obtain a minimum dwelling of one room with about 200 s.f. in the city areas for $100-300 and so forth. the major issue is really that of quality of living including luxuries, good foods, social networks, leisure activities, even freedom in daily lives. a problem with living with parents or in a minimum dwelling is that you can never have a dinner party with friends comfortably in daily basis. that sort of everyday pleasure is taken away if a young person is not well off enough to own a nice apartment, which is a rather elitist idea because owning an apartment is not cheap. in nice areas in seoul, it costs as much as new york or tokyo in millions of dollars. in local cities, it is not as expensive as in seoul, but cuturally, it is much weaker than seoul and hence not as attractive to young professionals. you can pretty much assume that all the elites are in seoul. where does this trend leads to? environments. not well thought out designs but rather quick prototype apartment highrisers popping up everywhere in premium sites. even worse, destructive developments on the precious natural environments simply because you have to choose between sustaining market i.e. the increase in equity vs. sustaining environment, between urban ecology and natural ecology. i can assure you that balancing things in developing countries is much more dangerous art, and i have to continue to emphasize that in the process of globalization, market is not the only thing that counts.
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