Calatrava told me that it wasn’t his job to monitor the budget. “It is very difficult,” he said. “I have never estimated anything in this project, because there was a whole team, maybe 25 people, working the whole time on cost estimation and cost control. But I kept looking at those fellows and telling them this is like geology: You only know what you have under your feet when you excavate.” — nymag.com
80 Comments
If there's a God, and I'm pretty convinced there is, I wish for Her to unleash Godzilla on the Gleaming Mothra in Manhattan, and rip its wings off and throw them into the Hudson.
This project is such a disappointment.
+++b3
davvid, you are a ruiner. You have the most shallow understanding of architecture and yet you have the loudest mouth.
New persona Miles? a rebrand? Is this part of your public relations strategy?
+++d[-_-]b
Sorry haters this is beautiful and worth every penny. Not enough great architecture around like this.
actually that's quite the structure and it's pretty damn exiting to walk by while in construction.....if you do architecture that's never really been done before the geology metaphor is on point.
I appreciate the architecture but the cost seems extravagant at a time when infrastructure is deteriorating. I don't think other architects like Hadid, Koolhaas or Gehry could get away with this and on the heals of a fiasco like the one in Valencia.
Funny how davvid picks and chooses.
Hadid, Koolhaas and Gehry have all had buildings with significant failures equal to Valencia or worse. And their buildings aren't cheap, either. Nor were they politically manipulated transportation hubs built at an accelerated pace - including complex underground rail - in one of the densest urban centers on the planet.
If this is too expensive for you I can't imagine what that Google B.S is gonna cost. But then again that one is all hype and Google/BIG PR, so....
"Hadid, Koolhaas and Gehry have all had buildings with significant failures equal to Valencia or worse."
Miles, What projects are you referring to?
You are aware that the station will cost nearly $4 Billion, according to the NY times?
Lightperson, There is a major difference, IMO, between a privately funded extravagance and a publicly funded one. Especially at a time when infrastructure is deteriorating.
ne! ne! ne! ne! ne!
everything thuuuuccks!
ne! ne! zaha, rem gehry ne! ne! ne!
hand crafted long island chimneys are the best ne!
I haven't finished reading *this* article, but didn't the last article on this project note that the lion's share of the expense is the underground work, the moving of utilities, keeping the trains running during construction, creating a new underground hub, etc?
That soaring white bird thingmajig up there didn't cost four billion dollars. Four billion dollars was spent on actual infrastructure.
here we go, found it in this article, too:
The oculus draws the eye and the barbs, but it accounted for only $319 million of the original budget, while elements like mechanical systems and foundational work made up the difference. It is the hidden costs, buried in the corridors that underpin the entire site, that have truly ballooned. In 2010, a federal monitor found that the project had absorbed $1.2 billion in shared infrastructure costs, only some of which was to be reimbursed.
^ True, thats a very good fact to consider.
I love that Graves quote though “Cala-fucking-trava! My God, what a waste”
architecture is in the weirdest position of all creative pursuits. It has to serve needs, wants, soul, site, budget.....its too hard to ever get everything right and because of that all works always make some people mad for one reason or another. In that way buildings are like people...and like people, if they live long enough, we learn to overlook with their flaws.
I'm still hoping this is chrysalis, and that Mothra rises, so Godzilla can come and save NYC.
funny how Piles picks and chooses.
There's this, too:
Plate (Director of WTC construction) noted that a decree that construction of the memorial plaza be finished for the tenth anniversary of September 11 caused the station to be constructed from the roof down. “It was counterintuitive to how you usually build buildings,” he said. When we heard the rumble of the 1 train, Plate explained how a suspension system was necessary to keep it running to South Ferry for Staten Island commuters. That reportedly cost at least $355 million, several times what was originally estimated.
Bolding is mine. So they built the plaza, then excavated under it to build the station. You know all those threads here on Archinect where people ask if it makes sense to dig under their house to build a basketball court or a garage and we all laugh and say "That's a really dumb way to build a big open space!"? Yep, that's how the Port Authority chose to build this. it was not the architect's decision.
And keeping the trains running so hundreds of thousands of people can do their daily commute despite a new station being built around them: that's expensive, but for those hundreds of thousands of people and the jobs that rely on them, it's a necessary expense.
haters gonna hate, but they sure as hell aren't going to design a building as well as calatrava.
Haters gonna hate, Dallas.0.
[calatrava sucks]
My money is still on Godzilla.
i'm not saying calatrava doesn't suck, i'm saying he sucks less that the people criticizing him.
I really like a lot of Calatrava's work. What does suck is the way his Milwaukee Museum just slams *thud* into Saarinen's existing building with, as I recall, a big honkin' caulk joint. Not a well-resolved detail, at. all.
But the interior is transcendent, and the parking garage the best parking garage I've ever experienced.
Donna, do you think thats calatravas fault or the AOR? He is technically the "designer" on these projects. Its probably difficult to control a project fully with the system we have in the US where AOR essentially takes over the project after DD phase.
"...proposing to save $200 million by making the hub more 'quotidian in design,' for instance, by raising the floor of the oculus and turning the PATH Hall into a two-level space with a food court."
Wait a minute... they passed up an opportunity to, make it more "Quotidian", SAVE $200 million - AND! get a Food Court! Hello WIN-WIN-WIN !
I would have paid the extra $200 mil to GET a food court. I mean, what we really need in the aorta of one of America's great metropolises is a Food Court. I mean, just think how much better the project (and life - let's face it) would be with a nice round of Golden Arches and Stuffed Crust Pizzas there in place of all that open space. Maybe some kiosks where I can buy some gold jewelry?
Everybody's whippin' on ol' Santiago... but where's the ire for the fucking food court idea-genius? A FOOD COURT? There's a nice big open space with light pouring in... and some clown thinks "What we really need is a food court."
Mercifully, the food court didn't make it... but where oh where are people going to find anything to eat now... in New York CIty? If Calatrava thinks the criticism is bad now, just wait until the Federal Senate Oversight Committee sits him down in front of the cameras and microphones and and says, "So. Mr. Kaller-Travers... you mean to tell me & this committee AND the great people of these United States... that we gave you 4 billion dollars and you couldn't even design a Food Court? Under Article 1776 , Subsection 7.4 of the Patriot Act - I'm sentencing you to 4 Billion years in Fort Leavenworth. To give you time to think about what you've done."
jla-x, my guess is that Calatrava wanted the long corridor to end smoothly into the abutting wall. My sense is that the long corridor should have terminated into something that made a distinction between the two forms, either something taller or shorter than what is on either side. A wide reveal, or a mini-parilion.
The flashing and caulk is likely the AOR, but with that kind of blunt smashing together how else can you detail a flashing joint?
Also, LOL Menona, nice one.
The Aroma of Cinnabun is the ultimate architectural buzzkill. Cinnabun could make the Pantheon a shitty experiance.
It's not the "caulk" joint that is the problem, it's the complete, and udder unsophisticated nature of the joint. No celebration of the connection. It's like a Winnebago backed up to a ranch house, oh, wait, that would've been a better solution. The detail alone, left me being a hater.
Has Calatrava developed an architectural theory or guiding principle behind his work?
Conch shells.
Food courts are essential to the 'murican way of life, but them damn New Yorkers, PBS watching liberals, they want an Occulus, sounds like an Occult...
the only way to deal with a Cala-fucking trava is to put a giant caulk joint over presumably em-seal or something. That's the only way - the buck stops there.
--------------------------------------
by the way those are Union prices, what every blue collar hard working American should get paid, and we're bitching about it! It's easier to justify a real fee when real wages are paid.
Calatrava needs to work on his PR campaign....until davvid likes Calatrava I will keep saying this...
can't davvid just have bad taste? isn't that a thing anymore?
maybe instead of 'orange is the new black,' for 2015, 'bad taste is the new black.' people just want to criticize the good stuff and pretend to like the bad stuff. that's actually kind of an ayn rand theme right? folks like that shit now don't they?
Haha. At least I'm not calling Calatrava a clown or suggesting that his building be torn down. I'm just wondering if there are brains behind the beauty and if the extravagance is justified.
98% of everything built is shit. Somebody has to like it.
davvid you can't be serious? brains? really, you are wondering if Calatrava has brains?
some students paper on Calatrava
davvid - BIG and Heatherwick will have to hire Calatrava to build the Google project.
but yeah, he really needs to work on PR....even though I don't like PR, you have to do it to keep the record straight, since there are architects who only concentrate on PR and only those in the profession know the difference.
Olaf, No. I'm not really wondering if Calatrava has brains. "Brains" was a euphemism. Did you see my earlier question? : Has Calatrava developed an architectural theory or guiding principle behind his work?
davvid, did you ever bother clicking on the link I gave you?
Olaf, I did click on the link. I read through some of the student writing. I'll read more later. Thank you.
Guiding Principles are all bullshit. Architects like to post rationalize their happenings. thats all guiding principles are. anyone who really designs things will know that a neat orthodox process is counter productive.
"fuck you pay me" seems to be his motto though.
Guiding Principles are all bullshit.
Depends.
Satisfy the program, protect the client's interest, see the project through to successful completion, etc. are all good guiding principles.
Complexity and contradiction and Patrik Shumacher's parasitic manifesto are not.
Louis Sullivan was another engineering-inclined architect. He developed "form follows function" and aesthetics that reconcile the problem of the steel frame and the tall building. I'm trying to figure out what Calatrava's intellectual contributions to the profession are. I haven't heard him speak about program or spatial organization. I don't hear him articulating ideas about sustainability or civic values. I'm just wondering if its all about this sort of skeletal aesthetic.
davvid what you're looking for I don't think Calatrava has to offer...he is very much "form follows function" but in the sense of 'nature' and 'engineering', so in general very little to do with 'political' and 'social' architecture....my guess that is what you tend to 'prefer'.
That students paper, kind of sums that bit up....I was looking for ETH (Zurich) dissertation and found that, if you can get your hands on his dissertation I think it pretty much outlines his "guiding principles"....which again are not the principles you are looking for...
Ken Koense actually kind of addressed on the podcast I think...while Frei Otto was very much "engineering" and "nature" he also gave a fuck about society....Not sure Calatrava does, or if he does he should get a PR campaign going to express this....
anyway, through various sources of the past, I can tell you he is worth no less than 8 digits...
I'm trying to figure out what Calatrava's intellectual contributions to the profession are.
he contributes buildings, and sometimes bridges. that is also a valid path for an architect to choose.
also, jla, what's wrong with 'fuck you pay me?' should architects not ask to be paid for their services because then they're not the tormented starving artist you envision?
curtkram,
Sure its valid in its own way. Many things are valid in their own way. And many firms can contribute bridges and buildings. I'm just trying to figure out how much value it has. Is it that I don't know enough about Calatrava to appreciate his work? Or is it that there isn't all that much depth to it and I know everything I need to know by simply looking at and walking through a Calatrava building.
nothings wrong with that curtkram...I never said there was anythjng wrong with it.
Also, by "guiding principles" I thought you were talking about formal principles....isms...yes I agree that ethical and professional principles can be a positive thing. Shiguru Ban is probably a good example of that...Calatrava is more about expressing structures...which is cool but sometimes the spaces are a little dull in some of his projects.
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