For the location and required skills set, I'd say it's beyond terrible...

Now come on guys. I'm sure this is for a 100+ hour a week job, so at $10 an hour you are easily clearning $52k a year before taxes.

That's what we pay the babysiter...

I made more than that fresh out of undergrad almost 10 years ago... and I didn't even know ACAD yet.

...or a dishwasher in any New England restaurant...

that's disgusting ...no wonder why they are anonymous

shit.

and they even want multi-tasking! wtf?! multi-tasking!! they pay more at mcdonalds for doing 1 task!!

I caught that add today too... I get more than that on unemployment! Can someone send him an email virus or something...

If it was an experimental design firm..maybe. just maybe the pay would make some sense. but the firm is providing full architectural services. Can we start a union? a real one.

Hey, at least they're not offering an unpaid internship. Seems like those were much more common last year, dare I say things are getting better?

Kidding aside, why not write to them and share your feelings about this insult to the profession.

^^^^^ Done

Terrible indeed..very demanding but giving only a little in return.

we pay our cleaning lady $20/hour (in LA)

click on the ad and flag it for removal!

http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/egr/1733788878.html

This is embarrassing. Somebody should reply and find out what firm this is and bombard them and their clients!!!

What I also wonder is how many people applied to that job...

wow ... this sort of feels like the last seven project interviews our firm has attended ... lots of downward pressure on fees ... resulting in lots of downward pressure on compensation.

I "applied," I'll post the firm name if I get a response.

Yeah post the firm name lits4formZ.We're waiting here with our torches. Lol.

FormZ,
Can you tell us your reasons why you would apply there? Is it lack of experience? Desperate situation?

I "applied" with a fake resume and email, I just want to find out the name of f*cks running the ad.

To be honest, I'm not sure I really understand the vitriol the flows through this thread. I receive employment inquiries every day from recent graduates literally begging me to give them employment. While I don't have any interest whatsoever in employing unpaid labor or in hiring people in at wages significantly lower than the competitive wages we pay the small staff we've been able to keep, I know for a fact that many of the people who approach our firm would take far less than what's being offered above just to keep working and to keep their skills intact.

While I agree that these are hard times and perhaps some firms might try to take advantage, I'm inclined to think the more vociferous posts here fail to recognize just how much desparaton is out there are and how even a $10/hour job might make a lot of sense for some. I think it counterproductive and unfair to suggest that anyone who might want to pursue this position should be treated as a pariah. At least they're not working for free.

I think we all know the situation is despearte and that there are probably plenty of people who, as you say, would be eager and willing to take this job if only so they can work and maintain some degree of skill.

But honestly $10 an hour is so paltry it's more insulting than not getting paid. At least not getting paid the office is being clear that it simply does not have the funds (or desire depending on the office) to pay you. You know exactly where you stand, it's probably temporary and it's likely that the position was taken with the intent for some type of intrinsic "compensation" (starchitect experience). Not that I am condoning the practice of unpaid interns or anything.

With this office, the message being sent is "We want someone with experience but we only think you are worth $10. We have the projects and money but we either too stingy or are unable to accurately budget, so you get the burden of our mistakes and misjudgment."

By the time you factor out taxes, you are lucky if this job manages $8 an hour take home, just over 16,500 a year. You are looking at maybe 1400 a month. In New York no less. Those are pretty hard numbers to work with unless you are living at home/rent free.

^desperate. Not sure what Google was thinking there.

But taking advantage of the economic situation and paying people less is fucking ridiculous! Whoever is doing that is a worhless piece od shit!

Predatory hiring of young or desperate candidates is never ethically sound.

Although I understand the situations recent graduates go through I'm not really sure if anybody should fall for the trap these 'employers' are setting.

One of my former principals (used to be a firm of 20+ people and now its down to him and another guy) calls me whenever they need help with a project they think they can get. He knows that they don't know how to do some things and he needs help. He flat out says that he can't pay me, but he needs help getting a project or two with my skills, but if they end up getting the project, he pays me for the time and effort put into it.

If the employer above knows he needs help then he should pay for it, pay for the intellect, skills etc., something he obviously lacks....if he didn't need anything then he wouldn't be looking for extra people.

I worked at a coffee shop through undergrad...after years of working there I was up to $8/hr base wage plus tips, which were $2-2.50/hr (they were more, as high as $3/hr some weeks, but then the store manager started taking a cut and they dropped down).

I just find it odd that someone without even a high school diploma (some of our stores hired current HS students) can make more money than I could at a job that I would need a Masters degree for.

I think its terrible how some (many?) companies treat their lowest level employees, simply because they can.

Does anyone else think this is an epidemic in America right now? Company owners and managers trying to maximize their own personal profits instead of trying to maximize the profits of everyone in the company?

I've been addicted to craigslist since you posted that ad on here....This is a position here in Chicago and they pay 10/hr....but the responsibilities are a little bit different...


Entry level CAD Designer

Job responsibilities include, but are not limited to creating drawing layouts, apply dimensioning and tolerances
and creating bills of materials.

Must be efficient with AutoCad and Pro-Engineering / Wildfire.

Internship is available from now until the end of September, 2010.

To qualify:
1) applicant must be a parent of a minor child OR
be 18-21 years old.
2) be unemployed

* Location: 119th Street and I-57
* Compensation: $10 per hour
* This is an internship job
* Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster.
* Please, no phone calls about this job!
* Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests.

Come on folks - lighten up.

Last time I looked, we're still a free market economy. If this company is offering an absurdly low wage for the skills and experience required, they won't get any takers. If not, someone who needs work and thinks the conditions are acceptable will have a paying job.

Nobody's forcing anybody to take this job. To me this is way less objectionable than firms that employ unpaid interns. The idea that having a few months with a 'starchitect' firm on your resume is a load of crap.

... besides, neither ad suggests a professional degree is required to do these jobs. Seems to me a tech school diploma in drafting might be sufficient.

Can an job advertisement specifically limit to 18-21 years of age? Not that 'ageism' doesn't happen during interviews, etc. but I didn't think companies could outright say it in their ad.

It's clearly designated as an internship - they're trying to give some young person- or disadvantaged person - some experience.

No it is not, because you don't really know WHY they need that specific age.You can hire a specific age if it is necessary to do a specific task or duty, like a child actor to do a child part in a movie etc. They did not say why they need that age group but it is not against the ADEA.

jabber,
but an intern can be 35 or 45....so that would be age discrimination, especially if you are over the age of 40.

No, they can't.

They should even say "recent graduates," "students currently in high school or college or "recent or current retirees."

As all of those reference age given the context of the general situations around them. One could say "recent college graduate, age unimportant."

Technically, an employer can't also used gender specifics words or words the infer gender. There are some specific instances where they can but those are usually never relevant to a professional position.

There are "Internships" and there are "Architectural Internships" - there's no reason to think the second ad is about the latter - it's a drafting job.

Plus, they describe two other alternate criteria that are not age related.

A well-worded (and legal) ad could read: "Internship for recent college graduate, individual seeking entry-level employment or individual looking for a career change."

TRIPLE POST:

I absolutely despise the word seasoned when used in an employment ad for the same reason.

Seasoned to me means "old enough to have accumulated a decorative patina," "salt-and-pepper," "nonstick from the accumulation of oxidized grease," or simply just "aged."

"well worded ad" - this is craigslist folks, not the Wall Street Journal. Can we bring just a smidge of common sense to this thread, please?

This is true. Half the ads on Craigslist do not provide an office name or email yet clearly expect you to email them something larger than the 150kb limit (or whatever it is) that the job-something@craigslist email will allow.

I've actually never once been successful with a Craigslist job post. The few times I have responded I have either not gotten a response OR I went to an interview only to find out that the job advertised was not even remotely close to what they were hiring for. Still I can't help but look and see what has been posted.

The ad says 2 years autocad experience.

Which could be an internship i guess, but with all the other requirements listed it sounds like theyre trying to ask for 2 years experience overall.

imagine if an ad came out asking for 10 years experience, paying $15/hr, very possible..

I got paid more at my first job in an office.

When I was still a student.

And hadn't learned AutoCad yet.

And was living in a city with a MUCH lower cost of living.

Just sayin'

Same here Cherith Cutestory... and I make more than that now on unemployment.

this individual/firm is full of ass-clowns. you get what you pay for and here's hoping they get Bartleby the Scrivener.

aside from all that the ad, and for what it's worth, uses the phrase intermediate architect. probably some kind construction company or real estate idiots, thinking they can get by without permitting.

I don’t know what the big deal is? It’s a drafting job. Do you really want to be doing some basic drafting duties or be involve more with the project or exciting projects?

Doesn't everybody want to do fun stuff, design and have meetings? Fact is most people do drafting only...

@poop876, And if you draft... you can always outsource to hard-worker Indian and Chinese. That's very easy in architecture.

Obviously they cannot do flashy concepts but for constructive details (I am talking about complex buildings) or design development they are simply fantastic. Same for renders. Trust me you could not differentiate a Western of an Asian 3D that is 20% of the cost.

We do that in our office (I work in SE Asia now) and I am extremely surprised on how good the results are. And I was very reluctant at the beginning. And how cheap, up to 1/4 of the cost of Europe/US. including trips to visit and check what they do in place.

Whoever says that the quality is not equal to US/EU, simply is lying, just have prejudices or punctual bad experiences with some Asian firms. They know REVIT, 3dsMax, Rhino... and they can get/learn any Building Code (in case they don't have it) very quickly.

Anyway with the rising costs of the labour in those countries and the current salaries in the Western world, probably in the near future we will outsource to Europe or the US since it is going to be cheaper than China (China is already a bit pricey). :)

I honestly think we will never see +$50k salaries for junior architects aka drafters again.

Welcome to the present and the globalization.

^ mmmm not quite Hawkin.

Dan Pink talks about this current situation of outsourcing in his newest book A Whole New Mind. It's a good quick read that will give you some new ways of thinking about the profession (although not discussed specifically). The really cliff notes summary is that right-brain thinkers will eventually dominate the workplace as we move from the "Information Age" to the "Conceptual Age"

He references 3 conditions that have already started to influence changes in the marketplace: Abundance, Asia and Automation. Asia - which discuss about the situation you described with outsourcing of renderings, etc. - will very likely assume more of the work you have described. There is a vast labor market willing (and capable) of working for a lower cost than someone in the US (regardless of nationality) that can easily perform routine tasks. Things like rendering, which don't require design input (for the most part) can be shipped to someone remotely without much trouble.

What this means for those of us here on the other end is that we have to figure out those areas of the profession that can not be outsourced because that is where the jobs (and money) will be. What this potentially means is seeing more positions in design and also more positions dealing with people (clients, consultants, etc.). Clients will gradually demand projects with a higher degree of design as they become more accustomed to design being a part of their life (with things like iPhones and flat-screen TV's). He goes on to innumerate a few other things that we will begin to see in the workplace, but the basic idea is that creative, design-oriented people will begin to take over the workplace.

I'll admit that at times it is a little lofty. It's hard to imagine many offices suddenly turning into studio-oriented environments that have long operated under the designer vs. drafter model. However with clients driving prices down and more work being sent overseas, it's going to be important to be flexible to a potentially changing workplace that may not have as many of the entry-level, intern positions.

I do think we will continue to see $50k and up salaries, but it's probably not going to be doing the same work that we would have done in 2008 or 2004.