For Chris'sakes, it's not a drafting job, show me where it says CAD Drafter? What drafting job do you know of where the following are requirements; multi-tasking, strong verbal and written skills, communicating with clients and contractors, Photoshop skills and 3D modeling?? Please, read the ad again, this is not a drafting position but a weak attempt at getting a starving architect-y type.
We outsource stupid crap to the Philippines, but there is just some things you would never outsource, which means you will be drafting. If you outsource everything...what is left to do?
Anyone defending this $10/hr job for essentially an intern architect has to have a screw loose... 5 years ago I made more than that as a part-time intern while going to school - at 20 years old. It boggles my mind how submissive architects can be and so defensive about poor pay...
I'm an unemployed intern architect and will be walking around for 4 hours going door to door in the hopes of selling windows... what does it pay?
- what you'd expect a high school diploma job to pay... $12/hr plus incentives. This is part time, and each meeting I set up for an in-house meeting will give me anywhere from $40 to $80 more... so at a min. the part time gig is suppose to pay me around $128 per 4 hours enjoying the outdoor, canvassing job.
The company is also hiring a full-time position doing the same thing, but pays a 30k base + incentives + benefits.... M-R (that's monday thru thursday)... from 4pm to 8pm...with either a saturday or sunday thrown in of 4 hrs.
That's 20 hours a week for >30k a year. We all have arch friends working 50 hrs a week for 36k...
"Anyone defending this $10/hr job for essentially an intern architect has to have a screw loose."
I don't think many, if any, here are defending this job. Rather, I think my own efforts are to restrain those comments that would vilify a job seeker who - out of necessity - might find these terms to be acceptable.
If you don't care to pursue the job, that's fine. But, that's no reason to denigrate someone who would rather have a low paying job instead of no job at all.
Coming out of this recession, it's already clear that many on this board are worried about gaps in their resumes. While I don't think anyone would seriously consider the positions advertised as "career positons" I do know some people who would consider temporary positions like this rather than sit at home doing nothing at all related their chosen profession.
To some, the old saying "any old port in a storm" still has meaning.
Well it’s an interesting topic. Some people think it’s a drafting job. Others think it’s a career with a poor salary. And some think it’s an internship. Ken Koense doesn’t think it’s a drafting job. Just look at these requirements:
Multitasking: I’ve seen several people multitasking several projects and duties. But the term is left loosely to be interpreted by the applicant.
Communication with Clients and contractors: sometimes you may need to contact engineers or consultants and ask them a quick question if the project manager is not around. Probably take a moment or two. It’s not like you are actually in meeting doing coordination or going down to the building and safety and pull out permits. It’s too risky for someone that’s getting paid 10 dollars to go to those meetings and comes back with doodles and smiley faces on a sheet rather than important information.
Strong verbal and written skills: if you can pick up the phone or talk to someone without saying “ummmmm” or “like” every other sentence, than that’s good enough.
This is the kind of stuff that makes me really pessimistic about sticking with my career choice. I've been laid off since May, and I'm currently making 3x as much as this ad is offering as a bartender. Sure, I love design and I'd happily devote my life to doing something I'm passionate about... but I'm also passionate about beer, and at the end of the day I still gotta pay the bills.
Some offices run like an assembly line(the bigger offices that is), where you have a small team of designers who just design from concept through schematics. Then they pass it along to another production team that deals with just the design construction phase and then passes it along to another team for deal with the construction documents through the end. So some people are only designing while others are drafting, in which there are several degrees of drafting. Drafting details? Drafting simple plans? who knows? But the designers get the existing projects whether it be architecture, a product design, or a simple that doesn’t relate to architecture. Not everyone drafts. Some are more tried to the project in which they deal with just meetings and very little drafting.
so, is it "basic" drafting duties or is it something more? this position suggests more. i would think, and know, that larger offices don't typically send "drafters" to meetings or meet with clients. the drafters i worked with, and having worked across many sizes of firms, put in their day and go home, they are not bogged down in the minutiae.
What if it is a drafting job?? It should STILL be more than 10 bucks for a drafting job because drafting requires some technical expertise besides these guys want 2 years of experience.I say with 2 years of experience they should at least pay 20$ p/h.Has anybody googled drafter salaries?? Since drafting is "kinda" harder than making coffees 10$ is not enough for that position and since 20$ is the appropriate amount for a mere drafting job I won't even get into how much a junior architect should make...
apparently it’s not that hard if this company is only willing to offer $10. Maybe it’s something mundane that they can put them in the corner and wait until they blossom and then later decides to quit and then the cycle continue. Maybe the office outsources the drafting and needs someone to fine tune or make minor adjustments. Or maybe it’s one of those “any monkey can do it” type of job that a one year student from a technical school can do.
I'm choosing the monkey path. Less resistance that way. If I just diligently work hard over in the corner, someday, just maybe I'll be monkey supreme. Fingers crossed!!!
: So ... let me be sure I understand this. An employer should pay you more because you have $40k in student loans? Does that mean an employer should pay someone who managed to graduate without student loans less? And, does that mean an employer should pay someone with ... say ... $100k in student loans even more than you get paid?
Jobs are worth what jobs are worth and what the individual can contribute to the mission of the organization. Just because an individual has greater needs doesn't mean he/she should be paid more ... or less.
babs, I have a hard time imagining ANY job in architecture being worth $10 an hour, let alone one that requires experience.
I will agree that student loans should not be used as a primary factor in determining compensation. What I will say though is that offices should be able to pay their employees to at least satisfy a minimum cost of living... to at least be able to afford to pay the rent, buy groceries, etc. I don't think $10 an hour is going to do that.
student loans are not going to be any kind of factor in my decision making. your standard of what is a 'minimal' cost of living may be very different than mine, and from fred in accounting, etc.
reading through this discussion is almost comical because it's so one sided. anyone not putting together bids for a project right now has no idea how cutthroat most project fees are right now. for example, we bid on a 500k university library renovation. they were going to 'qualify' firms and take the low bid from those jumped through the hoop. the spread of final bids was as follows:
high - 56K
low - 16.5K
we were the fourth lowest and i felt like we were just giving it away (btw, we were about double the low bid).
yes, there are firms making this a race to the bottom fee wise. the low bid guy, at the pre-bid, was making a big show about slow things were for him and he's a one person show running out of their house. so what are even 'small' firms like us supposed to do (much less any larger ones)? you want us to hire you for some grand wage, but there are almost no clients willing to do the same. squaring up those two is impossible right now - no one's asking for less service, just to pay less money.
I think the emphasis here is on the part-time - somebody who has some time to spare and skills and wants to moonlight. I would not put the emphasis on the "Intermediate Architect" bit of the ad, which is probably just an offer on the part of hirer to do some title inflation. We do some outsourcing work to very good professionals at around $20.00 per hour. $10.00 seems incredibly low for me, and they might not get any takers, but realistically, does anyone know what architectural temp time should be valued at?
Requirements:
- 2 years minimum experience in AutoCAD
- Strong verbal and written communication skills
- Knowledge of construction documentation
- Ability to multitask on various projects
- Communicate well with clients, contractors and consultants
- Ability to generate drawings and details based on sketches.
- Ability to prepare accurate drawings from field measurements.
Ideal candidates will also possess the following:
- 3D Modeling (AutoCAD, Sketch Up, Form-Z or Architectural Desktop)
- Photoshop skills
- Knowledge of light-frame wood construction
Clearly we are talking about someone who has worked before and probably has some degree of education (at least someone who is in an undergraduate program, maybe not yet graduated). Additionally this job requires the person to meet with clients and consultants and possibly go out to construction sites for field measurements or to meet with contractors. The ad is even looking for someone with specific knowledge of software and construction type. All in all, this is a job that, based on description, is looking for a professional applicant.
This isn't a position in the model shop where you might get away with your Metallica concert-T, baggy jeans and flip flops. It's also not a first-job position where appearance might be ignored because it's unlikely you will ever deal with anyone but other employees. This is a position where it's probably expected the person comes to work reasonable presentable on a daily basis. This could be mean jeans and a collared shirt or it could mean a shirt and tie. Either way it starts to define some characteristics of said applicants expenses.
______
Now, Let's play the numbers game:
$10/hour. Assuming no overtime pay and 20% loss with taxes (and also assuming an office paying this little probably doesn't offer benefits) means we are looking at $1387 a month net.
This job, being in Manhattan, means cost of living is already prohibitive. Given we need a professional applicant, I doubt that the $150 a month 8 roommate "dorm" with keg parties until 4am and a rotating cast of drug-fueled roommates is going to be acceptable, I would imagine that at the very least $500-$700 for rent.
Add to that about $100 for transportation (considering applicant is now living about 2 hours from Manhattan), $300 for food (which is only $10 a day), another $250 for household expenses (toiletry, laundry, etc.) and already the budget is blown. This doesn't include ANY bill payments (utilities, credit, student loans, cell-phone, insurance) let alone any room for emergency or error. Let's also not forget we were looking for a professional candidate, so it's easily foreseeable that there would need to be budget room for clothing expenses from time to time. And forget any social activities or recreation. No nights out, no gym, no movies. This guy can't even afford netflix.
I realize that someone will argue contrary, but this budget doesn't seem exceptionally lavish. All it's looking for is to cover the very basic costs of living, related to the city/market in question, that would be reasonable given someone working in a professional environment. Were not video store employees after all (who are probably making more than $10/hour already). This really is an unacceptable living wage for a professional.
I know times are tough but that is no excuse for paying someone less than an adequate living wage. I'm not asking for this employer to pay this applicant $60k because with this level of experience, that is probably not an accurate wage. But $20k? This guy is going to have buy groceries on credit (and isn't that part of the reason we are in this mess?)
I realize this pays more than the poverty threshold, but have we really sunk so low as a profession that we can congratulate ourselves on being able to pay an experienced employee more than the poverty threshold?
______
Finally as much as employers, etc are tired of the "student loan" excuse or this being a one-sided discussion, we applicants are also tired of you using the economy to low-ball salaries. I get that times are tough and some offices are bending over and taking it any way they can from clients if only to stay busy. Well guess what? Joining on them on the race to bottom is only hurting everyone and continuing to drive down the quality and esteem of the profession. Let them get screwed on low-bids. It won't take too long before they either go under when they can't afford to pay anyone or they get stuck doing Walgreen buildings for the rest of their careers. Be proactive with clients, community, finance boards, etc and work to establish acceptable practices for fees (which P.S. I have worked in offices that did just that.)
As much as I have seen on this forum that unemployed architects need to work harder, sell their skills, diversify, innovate, blah blah blah I look and see offices that have just given in and settled for whatever has happened. It's called conviction and it would be a good thing to learn.
strawbeary - right now, they absolutely are in some situations. we've really seen three scenarios: one, they do a low bid of qualified firms. two, they just list the fee upfront in the rfq. that has some wiggle room for negotiation afterwards, but not a lot. most of these are between 6-7% in terms of total construction cost, unless it's a very specialized building type. third is that there is a quals based selection with no fee stated up front. in those cases, no matter what the architect submits, they are basically tightening the screws down to that 6-7% level, more towards the former in the last few months. point being, they are as strapped for cash as anyone else and need their money to stretch as far as possible.
cherith - i'm not even going to try and defend a 10/hr salary. no one here is saying it's appropriate or is going to defend it. certainly i'm not.
that said, the naiveté in your last paragraph is somewhat stunning. everyone in the owner's side of things knows that fees can be pushed down right now, same as the construction fields. our firm actually fits your profile quite well. yet, we've still lost 6-8 jobs that we were shortlisted for in the last 4 months all because the owners (municipalities, universities, and private institutional clients) ended up taking a lower bid than what we submitted. in a few instances, our fee took us from being on the shortlist (qualifications wise) to down in the middle of the pack. and our fees are still about 20% lower than they were a couple of years ago for the same work. so, who makes up that 20% difference? our overhead is extremely low, so there's no real 'fluff' there. so, are we supposed to simply hold out for 'full fee' work? how long should that last if our revenue drops to the point where either i don't take home a check or have to lay someone off? we have plenty of conviction and blah, blah, blah....
cherith - in the end, we pay everyone here what used to be 'market rate'. we haven't cut anyone's salary (except mine) and i wouldn't hire someone at that low a rate. all i'm trying to point out is that your 'blah blah blah' would carry more weight if this were an under performing firm in moderate to good times. right now, that's not where this profession is as a whole. some firms - sure, they're doing great. most, though, are not where they once were.
Honestly outed I think we are on the same page on this one. My discussion is aimed at offices who are really not making the effort at all and who clearly have no business sense what-so-ever. I know that architects are being given the run-around on fees and honestly I have worked at offices that just let clients, consultants, etc push them around and offices that held their ground (to some degree). So I am not saying it's an us-vs.them but that in some cases, some offices need to, as they say, grow a pair. This may or may not be the case with this office but it does seem plausible.
I think that is really what is coming into question here is the lack of business skills that some offices are displaying today. It's likely these are the offices that have always been poor businessmen but in today's market they come into focus more (as we become more desperate to take these jobs). It's not about forming a union as some people have suggested, but putting more education about business practices. I can fully say the 1 professional practice course I had between grad and undergrad was 100% useless and had nothing to do with actual practice. There is always this argument that academia is disconnected from practice and in general I think that is a good thing. I don't think we need academic design studios working on LEED-platinum developer-friendly condos. Outside of design studio though, there really needs to be more education on the business side of architecture. As we have seen in the last 2 years, bad business can break an office real quick.
Maybe what would be more helpful is to determine what this job SHOULD be paying on an hourly/monthly rate. I know that is dependent on clients, project fees, amount of work, etc. But let's say given the job description and related requirements, what would be fair pay?
Cherith: well, I do have an MBA from an Ivy, plus 30 years of experience running firms. I'm pretty sure I've got a decent grip on what it takes to run a successful design firm.
Having said that, I'm with outed on this one. Standing up to abusive clients is one thing. But, in a buyers market, firms face the difficult choice between a) holding out for what we consider an appropriate fee (thereby, putting more people's jobs at risk) vs. b) hanging in there in the midst of brutal price competition in order to preserve as much employment as possible.
I don't expect any medals or praise here, but I'm going to opt for the choice that preserves employment whenever possible.
employment at what cost though? Is paying someone less than what they would make on unemployment really worth it? Personally I would rather sit on unemployment if it means banking more than what an office is "able" to pay me.
the firm I work at had the following response to the recession, in order:
1. froze new hires
2. released outsourcers and in-building subcontractors/consultants
3. froze salaries/no raises (but did not cut them)
4. layoffs, but in a sensible and targeted way
We did not slash salaries.
Contracted reductions in profitability (bidding things at or near breakeven multipliers) have definitely happened, although I disagree with some in our management who have pushed this strategy to excess, in my opinion.
...sadly they didn't respond. Changed the name and email but everything else on my resume was current and accurate. I guess they wouldn't want to pay someone $10/hr with a bachelors from a well respected school, acceptance to a recognizable masters program for the fall, over 6 months of int'l experience in addition to another year of intern work exp. in the US at well known firms all with stellar recommendations.
cherith - i think the problem is that even great business skills are taking a back seat to back room fee deals.
to answer your question about what an entry level position is worth? honestly, we haven't hired anyone since the crash started, so i just don't know. we were paying low 40's for really solid entry level (meaning maybe a summer or two of experience during school). my sense is that that number has been shaved a bit. and, honestly, if we had to hire right now, i think the best bet (at least for us) would be to get someone with 4-6 years experience. not 'too' expensive, but worth the extra to have them be able to generate a higher level of productivity quickly. because, the only way we can navigate the fees right now is to do things better, quicker. paying someone to have to learn 'too much', for a firm our size, is very, very tough. not ideal, but we can only play the hand we're dealt.
I noticed the ad has since changed (although only to become more vague):
Architecture/Design Build firm seeks part time summer intern for our South Street Seaport Architectural office.
Requirements:
- AutoCAD
- Strong verbal and written communication skills
- Knowledge of construction documentation
- Ability to multitask
- Ability to generate drawings and details based on sketches.
- Ability to prepare accurate drawings from field measurements.
Ideal candidates will also possess the following:
- 3D Modeling (Sketch Up)
- Photoshop skills
cherith: "Personally I would rather sit on unemployment if it means banking more than what an office is "able" to pay me."
Well, that is of course a personal decision. However, I can tell you that the members of our firm that we've been able to retain are in much better shape, and much happier, than those we were forced to lay off back in late 2008. Our current staff go out of their way to let us know how much they appreciate the fact that they still have jobs. Those who are sitting at home, unable to find work, are bored out of thier skulls and tremendously worried about the erosion of their professional skills.
The thrust of my earlier post was not to defend the $10 wage rate ... I think that sucks. Rather, I was endeavoring more to say that even the presence of strong business skills does not make one immune from the pressures of extreme price competition.
Quizzical, that's wishful thinking. I can say that losing my job over a year ago was one of the best things to happen to my career and I can't think of anyone who I know lost their job sitting at home bored out of their skulls or allowing their skills to erode.
I work temp jobs(BIM modeling+drafting) at various offices in the Bay Area - maybe I work for 1 month or only 2 weeks - it counts as recent experience and enables me to get the next gig easier. One of my former co-workers takes a different view. "It Messes with my EDD"(California Unemployment dole) and he has not worked in 5 months and is in pretty bad shape now(pysically, mentally, and motivationally). Sure I don't collect EDD - but at least I have recent experience and that’s what gets interviews and ultimately work.
The difference is how you approach it rethinkit. While I may be sitting on unemployment for the reasons your friend is (and also because there isn't even temp. work where I am located and I am not moving somewhere for a 3 month gig) I have used my time away from the profession to actual improve my quality of life. I joined a running group last summer and have run several half-marathons and am training to run a full. I go to the gym twice a week. I biked 2 metric century rides last year. I'm going though and reading all the books I wanted to read during school but just didn't have time. I'm learning new software and reworking old projects that didn't get the time and attention I wished they had gotten. I'm catching up on years of movies I missed and making my way through the classics. I've never been in better shape mentally and physically.
I'm not saying that unemployment is the greatest... I have deferred loans that are not getting any cheaper and I do get concerned that it will be harder to acclimate to office life again, but I'm also not letting it ruin my life either. All I have to do is talk to the few people in my graduating class who are working to realize that so far I am getting the better end of the deal. They are all routinely working 7 days a week, 14 hours a day and desperately looking for a way out. Sure they have a job, but that is all they have. Personally I am not interested in that. I've come to appreciate that there is more to life than work.
$10/hour
$10 an hour won't even pay for a lap dance
For Chris'sakes, it's not a drafting job, show me where it says CAD Drafter? What drafting job do you know of where the following are requirements; multi-tasking, strong verbal and written skills, communicating with clients and contractors, Photoshop skills and 3D modeling?? Please, read the ad again, this is not a drafting position but a weak attempt at getting a starving architect-y type.
We outsource stupid crap to the Philippines, but there is just some things you would never outsource, which means you will be drafting. If you outsource everything...what is left to do?
bathe in the afterglow of Rem's forehead after coitus?
Anyone defending this $10/hr job for essentially an intern architect has to have a screw loose... 5 years ago I made more than that as a part-time intern while going to school - at 20 years old. It boggles my mind how submissive architects can be and so defensive about poor pay...
I'm an unemployed intern architect and will be walking around for 4 hours going door to door in the hopes of selling windows... what does it pay?
- what you'd expect a high school diploma job to pay... $12/hr plus incentives. This is part time, and each meeting I set up for an in-house meeting will give me anywhere from $40 to $80 more... so at a min. the part time gig is suppose to pay me around $128 per 4 hours enjoying the outdoor, canvassing job.
The company is also hiring a full-time position doing the same thing, but pays a 30k base + incentives + benefits.... M-R (that's monday thru thursday)... from 4pm to 8pm...with either a saturday or sunday thrown in of 4 hrs.
That's 20 hours a week for >30k a year. We all have arch friends working 50 hrs a week for 36k...
i wonder what type of projects this office gets and the size of the office...
I don't think many, if any, here are defending this job. Rather, I think my own efforts are to restrain those comments that would vilify a job seeker who - out of necessity - might find these terms to be acceptable.
If you don't care to pursue the job, that's fine. But, that's no reason to denigrate someone who would rather have a low paying job instead of no job at all.
Coming out of this recession, it's already clear that many on this board are worried about gaps in their resumes. While I don't think anyone would seriously consider the positions advertised as "career positons" I do know some people who would consider temporary positions like this rather than sit at home doing nothing at all related their chosen profession.
To some, the old saying "any old port in a storm" still has meaning.
Well it’s an interesting topic. Some people think it’s a drafting job. Others think it’s a career with a poor salary. And some think it’s an internship. Ken Koense doesn’t think it’s a drafting job. Just look at these requirements:
Multitasking: I’ve seen several people multitasking several projects and duties. But the term is left loosely to be interpreted by the applicant.
Communication with Clients and contractors: sometimes you may need to contact engineers or consultants and ask them a quick question if the project manager is not around. Probably take a moment or two. It’s not like you are actually in meeting doing coordination or going down to the building and safety and pull out permits. It’s too risky for someone that’s getting paid 10 dollars to go to those meetings and comes back with doodles and smiley faces on a sheet rather than important information.
Strong verbal and written skills: if you can pick up the phone or talk to someone without saying “ummmmm” or “like” every other sentence, than that’s good enough.
This is the kind of stuff that makes me really pessimistic about sticking with my career choice. I've been laid off since May, and I'm currently making 3x as much as this ad is offering as a bartender. Sure, I love design and I'd happily devote my life to doing something I'm passionate about... but I'm also passionate about beer, and at the end of the day I still gotta pay the bills.
Some offices run like an assembly line(the bigger offices that is), where you have a small team of designers who just design from concept through schematics. Then they pass it along to another production team that deals with just the design construction phase and then passes it along to another team for deal with the construction documents through the end. So some people are only designing while others are drafting, in which there are several degrees of drafting. Drafting details? Drafting simple plans? who knows? But the designers get the existing projects whether it be architecture, a product design, or a simple that doesn’t relate to architecture. Not everyone drafts. Some are more tried to the project in which they deal with just meetings and very little drafting.
so, is it "basic" drafting duties or is it something more? this position suggests more. i would think, and know, that larger offices don't typically send "drafters" to meetings or meet with clients. the drafters i worked with, and having worked across many sizes of firms, put in their day and go home, they are not bogged down in the minutiae.
What if it is a drafting job?? It should STILL be more than 10 bucks for a drafting job because drafting requires some technical expertise besides these guys want 2 years of experience.I say with 2 years of experience they should at least pay 20$ p/h.Has anybody googled drafter salaries?? Since drafting is "kinda" harder than making coffees 10$ is not enough for that position and since 20$ is the appropriate amount for a mere drafting job I won't even get into how much a junior architect should make...
apparently it’s not that hard if this company is only willing to offer $10. Maybe it’s something mundane that they can put them in the corner and wait until they blossom and then later decides to quit and then the cycle continue. Maybe the office outsources the drafting and needs someone to fine tune or make minor adjustments. Or maybe it’s one of those “any monkey can do it” type of job that a one year student from a technical school can do.
Any monkey can run an architecture firm too, in fact, many do. It's not rocket science.
Yeah ... but not many monkeys can run one well!
True dat!
monkies were the first to explore outter space.
I'm choosing the monkey path. Less resistance that way. If I just diligently work hard over in the corner, someday, just maybe I'll be monkey supreme. Fingers crossed!!!
Evolution starts with monkeys.
Yeah, but Nesmith's mom invented White Out.
So I just sent him a nasty email!!! I think that we should flood his inbox!!!
My email:
I made more than that 10 years ago working for a famous architect buddy. WHAT AN INSULT TO THE PROFESSION!!!
Hmmm 10 dollars and hour... well I am sure that will help with my 40,000 student loan.
Since when did everyone stop respecting architects!
: So ... let me be sure I understand this. An employer should pay you more because you have $40k in student loans? Does that mean an employer should pay someone who managed to graduate without student loans less? And, does that mean an employer should pay someone with ... say ... $100k in student loans even more than you get paid?
Jobs are worth what jobs are worth and what the individual can contribute to the mission of the organization. Just because an individual has greater needs doesn't mean he/she should be paid more ... or less.
so about that union..... ?!?!?!
$10/HOUR!
ARCHITECTURE SUCKS!
babs, I have a hard time imagining ANY job in architecture being worth $10 an hour, let alone one that requires experience.
I will agree that student loans should not be used as a primary factor in determining compensation. What I will say though is that offices should be able to pay their employees to at least satisfy a minimum cost of living... to at least be able to afford to pay the rent, buy groceries, etc. I don't think $10 an hour is going to do that.
somebody should copy this whole thread and send it to them!
cherith -
student loans are not going to be any kind of factor in my decision making. your standard of what is a 'minimal' cost of living may be very different than mine, and from fred in accounting, etc.
reading through this discussion is almost comical because it's so one sided. anyone not putting together bids for a project right now has no idea how cutthroat most project fees are right now. for example, we bid on a 500k university library renovation. they were going to 'qualify' firms and take the low bid from those jumped through the hoop. the spread of final bids was as follows:
high - 56K
low - 16.5K
we were the fourth lowest and i felt like we were just giving it away (btw, we were about double the low bid).
yes, there are firms making this a race to the bottom fee wise. the low bid guy, at the pre-bid, was making a big show about slow things were for him and he's a one person show running out of their house. so what are even 'small' firms like us supposed to do (much less any larger ones)? you want us to hire you for some grand wage, but there are almost no clients willing to do the same. squaring up those two is impossible right now - no one's asking for less service, just to pay less money.
I think the emphasis here is on the part-time - somebody who has some time to spare and skills and wants to moonlight. I would not put the emphasis on the "Intermediate Architect" bit of the ad, which is probably just an offer on the part of hirer to do some title inflation. We do some outsourcing work to very good professionals at around $20.00 per hour. $10.00 seems incredibly low for me, and they might not get any takers, but realistically, does anyone know what architectural temp time should be valued at?
outed, universities don't generally take the low bid though, do they?
First, let's revisit the original ad in question:
Requirements:
- 2 years minimum experience in AutoCAD
- Strong verbal and written communication skills
- Knowledge of construction documentation
- Ability to multitask on various projects
- Communicate well with clients, contractors and consultants
- Ability to generate drawings and details based on sketches.
- Ability to prepare accurate drawings from field measurements.
Ideal candidates will also possess the following:
- 3D Modeling (AutoCAD, Sketch Up, Form-Z or Architectural Desktop)
- Photoshop skills
- Knowledge of light-frame wood construction
Clearly we are talking about someone who has worked before and probably has some degree of education (at least someone who is in an undergraduate program, maybe not yet graduated). Additionally this job requires the person to meet with clients and consultants and possibly go out to construction sites for field measurements or to meet with contractors. The ad is even looking for someone with specific knowledge of software and construction type. All in all, this is a job that, based on description, is looking for a professional applicant.
This isn't a position in the model shop where you might get away with your Metallica concert-T, baggy jeans and flip flops. It's also not a first-job position where appearance might be ignored because it's unlikely you will ever deal with anyone but other employees. This is a position where it's probably expected the person comes to work reasonable presentable on a daily basis. This could be mean jeans and a collared shirt or it could mean a shirt and tie. Either way it starts to define some characteristics of said applicants expenses.
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Now, Let's play the numbers game:
$10/hour. Assuming no overtime pay and 20% loss with taxes (and also assuming an office paying this little probably doesn't offer benefits) means we are looking at $1387 a month net.
This job, being in Manhattan, means cost of living is already prohibitive. Given we need a professional applicant, I doubt that the $150 a month 8 roommate "dorm" with keg parties until 4am and a rotating cast of drug-fueled roommates is going to be acceptable, I would imagine that at the very least $500-$700 for rent.
Add to that about $100 for transportation (considering applicant is now living about 2 hours from Manhattan), $300 for food (which is only $10 a day), another $250 for household expenses (toiletry, laundry, etc.) and already the budget is blown. This doesn't include ANY bill payments (utilities, credit, student loans, cell-phone, insurance) let alone any room for emergency or error. Let's also not forget we were looking for a professional candidate, so it's easily foreseeable that there would need to be budget room for clothing expenses from time to time. And forget any social activities or recreation. No nights out, no gym, no movies. This guy can't even afford netflix.
I realize that someone will argue contrary, but this budget doesn't seem exceptionally lavish. All it's looking for is to cover the very basic costs of living, related to the city/market in question, that would be reasonable given someone working in a professional environment. Were not video store employees after all (who are probably making more than $10/hour already). This really is an unacceptable living wage for a professional.
I know times are tough but that is no excuse for paying someone less than an adequate living wage. I'm not asking for this employer to pay this applicant $60k because with this level of experience, that is probably not an accurate wage. But $20k? This guy is going to have buy groceries on credit (and isn't that part of the reason we are in this mess?)
I realize this pays more than the poverty threshold, but have we really sunk so low as a profession that we can congratulate ourselves on being able to pay an experienced employee more than the poverty threshold?
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Finally as much as employers, etc are tired of the "student loan" excuse or this being a one-sided discussion, we applicants are also tired of you using the economy to low-ball salaries. I get that times are tough and some offices are bending over and taking it any way they can from clients if only to stay busy. Well guess what? Joining on them on the race to bottom is only hurting everyone and continuing to drive down the quality and esteem of the profession. Let them get screwed on low-bids. It won't take too long before they either go under when they can't afford to pay anyone or they get stuck doing Walgreen buildings for the rest of their careers. Be proactive with clients, community, finance boards, etc and work to establish acceptable practices for fees (which P.S. I have worked in offices that did just that.)
As much as I have seen on this forum that unemployed architects need to work harder, sell their skills, diversify, innovate, blah blah blah I look and see offices that have just given in and settled for whatever has happened. It's called conviction and it would be a good thing to learn.
so... did someone say something about a union?
strawbeary - right now, they absolutely are in some situations. we've really seen three scenarios: one, they do a low bid of qualified firms. two, they just list the fee upfront in the rfq. that has some wiggle room for negotiation afterwards, but not a lot. most of these are between 6-7% in terms of total construction cost, unless it's a very specialized building type. third is that there is a quals based selection with no fee stated up front. in those cases, no matter what the architect submits, they are basically tightening the screws down to that 6-7% level, more towards the former in the last few months. point being, they are as strapped for cash as anyone else and need their money to stretch as far as possible.
cherith - i'm not even going to try and defend a 10/hr salary. no one here is saying it's appropriate or is going to defend it. certainly i'm not.
that said, the naiveté in your last paragraph is somewhat stunning. everyone in the owner's side of things knows that fees can be pushed down right now, same as the construction fields. our firm actually fits your profile quite well. yet, we've still lost 6-8 jobs that we were shortlisted for in the last 4 months all because the owners (municipalities, universities, and private institutional clients) ended up taking a lower bid than what we submitted. in a few instances, our fee took us from being on the shortlist (qualifications wise) to down in the middle of the pack. and our fees are still about 20% lower than they were a couple of years ago for the same work. so, who makes up that 20% difference? our overhead is extremely low, so there's no real 'fluff' there. so, are we supposed to simply hold out for 'full fee' work? how long should that last if our revenue drops to the point where either i don't take home a check or have to lay someone off? we have plenty of conviction and blah, blah, blah....
cherith - in the end, we pay everyone here what used to be 'market rate'. we haven't cut anyone's salary (except mine) and i wouldn't hire someone at that low a rate. all i'm trying to point out is that your 'blah blah blah' would carry more weight if this were an under performing firm in moderate to good times. right now, that's not where this profession is as a whole. some firms - sure, they're doing great. most, though, are not where they once were.
Honestly outed I think we are on the same page on this one. My discussion is aimed at offices who are really not making the effort at all and who clearly have no business sense what-so-ever. I know that architects are being given the run-around on fees and honestly I have worked at offices that just let clients, consultants, etc push them around and offices that held their ground (to some degree). So I am not saying it's an us-vs.them but that in some cases, some offices need to, as they say, grow a pair. This may or may not be the case with this office but it does seem plausible.
I think that is really what is coming into question here is the lack of business skills that some offices are displaying today. It's likely these are the offices that have always been poor businessmen but in today's market they come into focus more (as we become more desperate to take these jobs). It's not about forming a union as some people have suggested, but putting more education about business practices. I can fully say the 1 professional practice course I had between grad and undergrad was 100% useless and had nothing to do with actual practice. There is always this argument that academia is disconnected from practice and in general I think that is a good thing. I don't think we need academic design studios working on LEED-platinum developer-friendly condos. Outside of design studio though, there really needs to be more education on the business side of architecture. As we have seen in the last 2 years, bad business can break an office real quick.
Maybe what would be more helpful is to determine what this job SHOULD be paying on an hourly/monthly rate. I know that is dependent on clients, project fees, amount of work, etc. But let's say given the job description and related requirements, what would be fair pay?
Hmmmm ... is "grow a pair" a business term?
Cherith: well, I do have an MBA from an Ivy, plus 30 years of experience running firms. I'm pretty sure I've got a decent grip on what it takes to run a successful design firm.
Having said that, I'm with outed on this one. Standing up to abusive clients is one thing. But, in a buyers market, firms face the difficult choice between a) holding out for what we consider an appropriate fee (thereby, putting more people's jobs at risk) vs. b) hanging in there in the midst of brutal price competition in order to preserve as much employment as possible.
I don't expect any medals or praise here, but I'm going to opt for the choice that preserves employment whenever possible.
employment at what cost though? Is paying someone less than what they would make on unemployment really worth it? Personally I would rather sit on unemployment if it means banking more than what an office is "able" to pay me.
the firm I work at had the following response to the recession, in order:
1. froze new hires
2. released outsourcers and in-building subcontractors/consultants
3. froze salaries/no raises (but did not cut them)
4. layoffs, but in a sensible and targeted way
We did not slash salaries.
Contracted reductions in profitability (bidding things at or near breakeven multipliers) have definitely happened, although I disagree with some in our management who have pushed this strategy to excess, in my opinion.
Well I "applied"
...sadly they didn't respond. Changed the name and email but everything else on my resume was current and accurate. I guess they wouldn't want to pay someone $10/hr with a bachelors from a well respected school, acceptance to a recognizable masters program for the fall, over 6 months of int'l experience in addition to another year of intern work exp. in the US at well known firms all with stellar recommendations.
cherith - i think the problem is that even great business skills are taking a back seat to back room fee deals.
to answer your question about what an entry level position is worth? honestly, we haven't hired anyone since the crash started, so i just don't know. we were paying low 40's for really solid entry level (meaning maybe a summer or two of experience during school). my sense is that that number has been shaved a bit. and, honestly, if we had to hire right now, i think the best bet (at least for us) would be to get someone with 4-6 years experience. not 'too' expensive, but worth the extra to have them be able to generate a higher level of productivity quickly. because, the only way we can navigate the fees right now is to do things better, quicker. paying someone to have to learn 'too much', for a firm our size, is very, very tough. not ideal, but we can only play the hand we're dealt.
I noticed the ad has since changed (although only to become more vague):
Architecture/Design Build firm seeks part time summer intern for our South Street Seaport Architectural office.
Requirements:
- AutoCAD
- Strong verbal and written communication skills
- Knowledge of construction documentation
- Ability to multitask
- Ability to generate drawings and details based on sketches.
- Ability to prepare accurate drawings from field measurements.
Ideal candidates will also possess the following:
- 3D Modeling (Sketch Up)
- Photoshop skills
And still $10/hour.
cherith: "Personally I would rather sit on unemployment if it means banking more than what an office is "able" to pay me."
Well, that is of course a personal decision. However, I can tell you that the members of our firm that we've been able to retain are in much better shape, and much happier, than those we were forced to lay off back in late 2008. Our current staff go out of their way to let us know how much they appreciate the fact that they still have jobs. Those who are sitting at home, unable to find work, are bored out of thier skulls and tremendously worried about the erosion of their professional skills.
The thrust of my earlier post was not to defend the $10 wage rate ... I think that sucks. Rather, I was endeavoring more to say that even the presence of strong business skills does not make one immune from the pressures of extreme price competition.
^ well that is good to hear. The people I know who are still employed are working 14 hour days, 7 days a week and hating life.
Quizzical, that's wishful thinking. I can say that losing my job over a year ago was one of the best things to happen to my career and I can't think of anyone who I know lost their job sitting at home bored out of their skulls or allowing their skills to erode.
I work temp jobs(BIM modeling+drafting) at various offices in the Bay Area - maybe I work for 1 month or only 2 weeks - it counts as recent experience and enables me to get the next gig easier. One of my former co-workers takes a different view. "It Messes with my EDD"(California Unemployment dole) and he has not worked in 5 months and is in pretty bad shape now(pysically, mentally, and motivationally). Sure I don't collect EDD - but at least I have recent experience and that’s what gets interviews and ultimately work.
diversity is the key..... don't sit around... learn some more skillsets and knock on doors...
i once worked for 10 an hour and quit after figuring out 1099... a friend of mine got hosed for taxes based at the same place...
The difference is how you approach it rethinkit. While I may be sitting on unemployment for the reasons your friend is (and also because there isn't even temp. work where I am located and I am not moving somewhere for a 3 month gig) I have used my time away from the profession to actual improve my quality of life. I joined a running group last summer and have run several half-marathons and am training to run a full. I go to the gym twice a week. I biked 2 metric century rides last year. I'm going though and reading all the books I wanted to read during school but just didn't have time. I'm learning new software and reworking old projects that didn't get the time and attention I wished they had gotten. I'm catching up on years of movies I missed and making my way through the classics. I've never been in better shape mentally and physically.
I'm not saying that unemployment is the greatest... I have deferred loans that are not getting any cheaper and I do get concerned that it will be harder to acclimate to office life again, but I'm also not letting it ruin my life either. All I have to do is talk to the few people in my graduating class who are working to realize that so far I am getting the better end of the deal. They are all routinely working 7 days a week, 14 hours a day and desperately looking for a way out. Sure they have a job, but that is all they have. Personally I am not interested in that. I've come to appreciate that there is more to life than work.
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