Under currently law, getting busted for illegal immigration is a slap on the wrist, $200-$1000 dollar fine and put on a bus or place and sent to Juarez or Tijuana.
(If you don't pay your fine, there's obviously jail time involved.)
But, they're basically trying to find new ways of being able to charge people and put them into the jail system.
well if your legal alien its only cause your married with a US citizen and became legal or either your parents were illegal and then they became legal (immigration reform). so how can a legal alien says that "hates illegal aliens'? make no sense. plus some immigrants are just trying to improve their life, yet their are some that only cause trouble and those are the one that should be sent back and let their countries to deal with them (put them in Jail).
The hypocrisy shown by people arguing for these punitive laws is so thick you need a jackhammer to cut through it.
They claim that immigrants should follow laws, conveniently ignoring that the country was expanded through the unabashed breaking of immigration laws. Look at the list of treaties with the Native Americans. Most of them are actually coercing the natives into giving up areas of land they have lived on for many generations or face grave consequences, but in some cases (like the Treaty of Fort Laramie), the government, recognizing that certain areas were so important and sacred to a specific tribe, agreed in a treaty to give them sole ownership (as if that was their right to do, since they didn’t own it in the first place) of said land “as long as grass grow and wind blow and the sky is blue.” Now were these not essentially immigrant laws? That is, no “pioneers” were to settle there and build houses and hunt and farm…no immigration, then. And these were legal documents, signed by elected representatives of the US government. How well did the country observe those “laws”, how did that work out for the natives?
Now, I don’t really blame the people who went west, crossed prairies, mountain passes, and deserts, got to a place very tired and with hardly any food left and saw land for the taking: they were just trying to feed their families too, and they didn’t give a fuck about a piece of paper either. I do blame the government for not enforcing those treaties, just the opposite, breaking them with impunity and sending the full force of the military in many cases to do so. So our ancestors were rewarded for breaking immigration laws by getting ownership of basically the whole country and its riches, no punishment whatsoever.
But now we want harsh sanctions and jail time to punish people who come here with no legal papers but with the intention of pure survival for them and their children, same as the wagon train people, and not even to get any land (because that’s already all spoken for) but just to try to make a little money at mostly menial, back-breaking jobs. Yea, let's develop ever more punitive laws against these people, because, you know, we’re so morally superior to them and would never, ever do anything like that were we in their place.
Forget the jackhammer, you need an industrial laser.
when there were too many europeans, they passed the 1965 immigration act - it's been 45 years of social engineering. pile on top of that illegals from the same demography as cultivated by the law. fair is fair, and there is a law in place assuring fairness via legal path.
illegal immigration becomes disparate when it is so easy to walk across a border when others need to cross an ocean. many see an invasion. I think mexicans see it as displacing / compensating for any more that come from across the ocean. Native land...There are the geographical and the national component at odds. Similar argument as the palestinians
The whole illegal immigration issue is a big nothing, a bogus issue, a bogey-man, a smokescreen, both here and in Europe (and other countries as well), usually spouted by the right wing (see post above this one) to divert attention from real issues and politician's ineptitude and failures. "Hey, great citizens (or subjects, as the case may be) the economy is is the dumpster and you lost your job, and you can't afford basic necessities, but don't look at the nitwit bankers and traders, don't look at us politicians and leaders, hell, don't even sometimes look in your bathroom mirror, no, no: it's all the fault of the invading marauders from [fill in the name of country] infiltrating illegally and ruining our way of life". What a great target immigrants (legal and illegal) make: don't speak the language, don't own property, have no political power...perfect target, just perfect, uniting people behind another nothing issue (see the Tea Party manifesto for the other ones).
As I wrote in my previous post, if the people screaming and railing about this issue were in the place of the immigrants, if the situation was reversed, they would do the same fucking thing, only worse. For instance, picture a scenario where the recent stand off between the Koreas, or something between Iran and Israel, goes out of control and results in a nasty nuclear war: most of the US becomes unlivable, radiation all over, no food supplies, no gasoline. Canada and Mexico, being considered non-entities in the world domination game, get away relatively unscathed. They immediately impose immigration quotas from the US so as not to destabilize their own countries: what are the chances most of the US populace would hesitate even one second before pouring across the borders. Hell, the fucktards who are proposing and voting for those laws in AZ would immediately round up all available weapons and form militias and cross into Mexico and confiscate buildings and property at will, all the while ranting about "God given rights" and "Manifest Destiny" and all the usual garbage.
Man, where's George Carlin when you really need him.
Oh, and McCarthy is a dead bag of pestering, bloviating, rancid, putrid pus (and was so when still alive) if anybody ever was.
"well if your legal alien its only cause your married with a US citizen and became legal or either your parents were illegal and then they became legal (immigration reform). so how can a legal alien says that "hates illegal aliens'?"
How is that IGNORANCE working for you? My cousin came here with student visa and 0$ dollars in his account(because he was too proud to take money from his parents),he finished graduate school with a degree in computer science and he worked his ass off to pay for the grad school and the rent and after the grad school his employer sponsored him and in 3-4 months he will be getting his green card so will his wife because her employer sponsored her too!
Educate yourself ignorant!
"I don't know about you, but when I'm looking down at my kids and they have an empty plate and a bloated stomach, I'm gonna go anywhere there's a possibility of making some money...fuck the laws."
What Emilio said: I'll make children despite of my financial situation,I'll make children although I don't have the money to take care of them('cos my libido is high and I don't like using birth control) and I'll break the laws of the nearest country,get free welfare,free healthcare and jobs without paying tax because I don't give a s**t about the laws or the citizens of that country and I only care about myself.Selfishness..No wonder architects are so broke these days...
How is that IGNORANCE working for you? My cousin came here with student visa and 0$ dollars in his account(because he was too proud to take money from his parents),he finished graduate school with a degree in computer science and he worked his ass off to pay for the grad school and the rent and after the grad school his employer sponsored him and in 3-4 months he will be getting his green card so will his wife because her employer sponsored her too!
Educate yourself ignorant!
thats your cousin not you.. but still dint he migrate to the US for a better life?? dint you as well ( whether you are legal or not).. some people think they are better than others just cause they hold a "card".. i bet there are smarter people than you crossing the border illegally.. why you hate them so much???
"thats your cousin not you.. but still dint he migrate to the US for a better life?? dint you as well ( whether you are legal or not).. some people think they are better than others just cause they hold a "card".. i bet there are smarter people than you crossing the border illegally.. why you hate them so much???"
Yes we all migrated here for a better life and we did it the LEGAL way.I'm sure there are smarter people out there but I know how to follow procedures HA! Some things are more important than IQ ya know!
yes but why i just dnt understand your point o hating towards other immigrants.. as far i know or i have read your from Latin America as well. wat makes you hate them like that? just asking dnt take it personal just wondering you know!
Too bad you can't come up with anything wiser than "Parad0xx is a bitch".It happens when a person is unable to communicate in words so he/she starts using insults and violent behavior and it is a real irony to see a person who is supposedly trying to eliminate hatred to behave in a such a violent and sexist way.I pity you.
ok if you're from the other side of the world.... why your so sorry about the people from the this part of the world??!?! let it go girl and do us a favor.. i wont be surprise if the laws change in the next couple of yrs and you end up being deported... karma is a b...!
I have good news for you Paradoxx86 even if your from the other side of the world you could still be a BITCH.
Why is a person like you from as you say " the other side of the world."
talking shit about the Native Americans?
Why is a person like you from the other side of the world who could not handle 16 credits of college course work and had to take 5 years to complete a 4 year bachelor degree,as you said on a different thread, talking as if you know what the ills of this country are?
Your only contribution to this country as far as i can tell is absolutely nothing, hell illegal immigrants have payed more taxes to social security than you ever will in your lifetime.
Please stop talking about Native Americans as if you know what happened on this continent, this country because your family from the other side of the world, does not know anything about the natives or the injustices that happened to them, some of us had relatives that saw it all happen. And its something that Americans especially White Americans do not want to revisit.
What hurts my eyes are your grammatical mistakes more than your errr..not very bright or well thought posts sivarch.If you need an English tutor I'm here to help you you know.
"i wont be surprise if the laws change in the next couple of yrs and you end up being deported..."
*surprise: correction:surprised
*yrs:years
"yes but why i just dnt understand your point o hating towards other immigrants.. as far i know or i have read your from Latin America as well. wat makes you hate them like that? just asking dnt take it personal just wondering you know!"
dnt:don't
o:of
wat:what
That's my knowledge of American English so far.Uhmm am I missing something? :)
ok let it go.. and i hope they change the AZ law whether paradox like it or not. just remember that they paid taxes as well and probly more than any other immigrant, yet they will never get the respect and benefits of citizens.
Sounds like you need a good ol American can of ass whoop. Don't worry if you don't get the joke, i'm sure one day you will piss off the wrong American and he/she will give you one maybe more than one if you like.
yes, Rude, 'cause everything one reads on far right wing wingnut bogs must be true. I feel filthy even seeing that website. Please warn us about what you link next time.
I should add, that my issues with your worldview have very little to do with your views on immigration or even race. I dislike populists, demagogues and wingnuts even more than I despise nativists. Even if every last illegal ... and every every last legal immigrant, like Paradoxx here, went back home to whatever alien shore from which they came and it was just down to "real" Americans like us, I'd still think you are dangerous. Your incendiary and provocative demagogueing on the Top Kill thread validates my feelings about you. Now, please go away.
Geertrude had a deadbeat illegal alien mexican father who he never met and who abused his mom while molesting his sister. Really sad story that made poor Geert a Klan reject even with his blue eyes from the mother's side. That's okay lil Geert, we won't hurt you. You are safe here.
Urbanist: demagouge-ing? You're a fool - I care more about the environment than you'll ever know - no need to demogogue the bandwagon environmentalists.
SpadeKing - You're a fool's sock puppet. I think you both are your own undoing - you sound like a couple of inner-city ghetto rats with a free college education.
We all know your type.
Well, i dont see how that^ or just calling people a bitch is productive.
"I'll make children despite of my financial situation,I'll make children although I don't have the money to take care of them('cos my libido is high and I don't like using birth control) and I'll break the laws of the nearest country,get free welfare,free healthcare and jobs without paying tax because I don't give a s**t about the laws or the citizens of that country and I only care about myself."
Look, you just have no idea whatsoever what real poverty is. Poverty here is not like poverty there. Most of these people dont have money for birth control. Most of the time they dont even have access to birth control. They dont come here for the goddamned free healthcare. They come here because they dont want to die early and poor, and where they are there is no possibility whatsoever of anything else. These people are very often escaping abuse and desperation on scales I dont think you could imagine. Anyone whose been to rural south america or africa or india can testify to this. Here when people are poor they cant pay their cable bill. There mothers abandon their children to the streets because they can barely afford to feed themselves. Indians are pretty well known for a cultural devotion to learning and achievement and work ethic that makes the average american look like an overmedicated factory sow, and poverty there is quite possibly worse than anywhere on earth, so I really dont want to hear any more of this of this crypto-racist horseshit about who's too lazy and stupid to carve some meaning out of their lives.
This has everything to do who was lucky enough to be born in a place with stable institutions, and nothing whatsoever to do with whose intentions are more nefarious than others. Everyone on earth just wants a comfortable life for their family, for some hope life will be better for their children than it was for them. Thats as true of them as it is of you. Because you were lucky enough to have the option to come here and be welcomed and have institutional opportunities instead of being racially scapegoated doesnt make you morally superior.
oe - you've made a completely logical argument, but what everyone refuses to acknowledge is:
1) There are TOO MANY Illegal Immigrants - it's unsustainable.
2) Why can't other countries host the same promise for their people?
3) The immigration act of 1965 has made it fair for all countries to come here, and to put a limit on how many whites come here.
If a thief broke into your house would you allow him to live in your house oe?
So are you telling us that the US should take in all the poor people coming in oe? Even of they are 40-60 millions in number? If so how do you think the US can support all those people? With what money?
3) If we only allow hispanic people to come over here wouldn't it be counter racist for the other people because there are so many poor people in Africa/middle east/eastern europe etc. why don't we put them in ships and planes,bring them over there and let them work? Why the special treatment?
4) In Frac's post the illegal guy stayed here for 6 years and didn't even bother learning English.Doesn't that tell us he doesn't really want to be a part of this country? I think all his concern is making money and send it back to Mexico.
Your posts are great and very emotionally loaded.We don't agree on this point: if a person breaks a law to come over here should he be rewarded with a job and other benefits? I say no and you say yes.So as a yes person you also need to provide the solutions.If you can't,I'll politely ask you to sit down and shut your mouth.
actually, illegal immigration is by no means restricted to the US. People cross borders into and work illegally wherever there are economic opportunities.
A little bit of googling reveals that EU's Europol estimates that there are between 2.6 to 6.4 illegals in their region, mostly from Africa, Turkey, Ex-CIS, and Latin America. Last year, Greek naval forces were filmed throwing captured Turkish illegals overboard near Turkish beaches, causing an international scandal. Spanish police have been caught shooting illegals fro
Morocco trying to enter the two Spansh enclaves on the African coast and the Spanish border walls at those enclaves rival the US border infrastructure system in San Diego.
The Chinese Ministry of Public Security estimates that there are (bases on official records) at least 2.85 illegals, mostly from the Mekong States, Africa, Korea and the ex-CIS working in their countries, and that real figure may be as a high as a shocking 26 million illegals. A series of immigration raids on Guangzhou's Little Africa over the last two years netted nearly 100,000 illegals but caused riots when a Nigerian migrant was killed during a raid.
1) There are TOO MANY Illegal Immigrants - it's unsustainable.
I think this is a pretty debatable assertion. In a lot of ways these people actually prop up the economy in many states. Having low labor costs is hugely important to economic competitiveness, and very often is the only thing preventing companies from moving production and the money it generates to other countries. Allowing their kids into public schools and treating them when they get sick or hurt working difficult jobs seems like the absolute least we could do.
The US has a lot of unsustainable policies; we consume more than we produce, we dont allocate basic services like education and healthcare in anything like a fair or intelligent way, we are completely enslaved to fake money and non-renewable resources and the companies that control them, and to compensate for all that, we have to spend half the federal budget on debt interest and military misadventureism. I dont think its difficult to argue the cost of providing basic services to immigrants is the least of our problems.
2) Why can't other countries host the same promise for their people?
Many do! But if youre asking why some countries have more more wealth or more stable governments than others, I think thats a pretty complicated question to answer. Im sure geography and resources are a huge part of it, but half the time it just seems to be historical accidents. What if the ottomans hadnt lost the battle of vienna? What if china had sent ships to colonize america before europeans did? Or some enterprising mayan invented democracy or the steam-engine?
I dont think it matters. None of us gets to choose where we are born. If people cross a border to find a better life because their country is run by banana republican thugs (inserted by the CIA) or drug gangs (bankrolled by americas raging coke habit) its pretty difficult for me to fault them.
There are certainly huge sociological problems with immigration. That the immigrants themselves are by-nature malicious freeloaders isnt one of them.
3) The immigration act of 1965 has made it fair for all countries to come here, and to put a limit on how many whites come here.
3) If we only allow hispanic people to come over here wouldn't it be counter racist for the other people because there are so many poor people in Africa/middle east/eastern europe etc. why don't we put them in ships and planes,bring them over there and let them work? Why the special treatment?
I'll take these together. You guys take this a matter of strait numbers, ie, more people come here from latin america than from europe. I take it as accommodation proportional to demand, ie, the policy of the united states largely accommodates the demand for immigration from europe, whereas there is an enormous, deliberate disparity between the number of people who wish to immigrate from latin america and the numbers we legally allow in. The real difference I see between us is you think if we let in every legitimate person who wished to come, we would destroy the economic and cultural viability of the US, where I think we would enhance it. You think the cost of providing basic services to immigrants outweighs the economic benefit and increased competitiveness their labor brings. I think this is not only historically absurd, but implies that these people are somehow inherently and permanently less than net-zero human beings, that unlike basically all other humans on earth, the work they provide is worth less than what it costs to keep them alive. This isnt just obviously, blindingly false, it actually really bothers me that people could be led to believe something so inhuman.
4) In Frac's post the illegal guy stayed here for 6 years and didn't even bother learning English.Doesn't that tell us he doesn't really want to be a part of this country? I think all his concern is making money and send it back to Mexico.
I just find it telling when people have to resort to anecdotes, thats all. I dont look at Jeffrey Dahmer and think 'Wow! all blonde white guys with dorky glasses are psychopathic cannibals.'
I think a lot of people on both sides have posted some pretty reasonable solutions. Personally, I think if we were to increase the legal immigration caps, if we created a system for naturalizing people who are already a part of our communities, pay penalties, back taxes, go through the same process all legal immigrants are required to, we could then devote border protection resources to more productive tasks like targeting drug runners and arms traffickers. If ordinary people were legally allowed to enter, then you would know, for instance, that anyone crossing the desert was probably doing something destructive, rather than having to scatter patrols all over sifting through hundreds of people just trying to find work. If you dont do the border security stuff in concert with integration programs, youre just throwing money away arresting poor, generally well-meaning people and not effectively tackling the real problems.
2) Why can't other countries host the same promise for their people?
Many do! But if youre asking why some countries have more more wealth or more stable governments than others, I think thats a pretty complicated question to answer.
----------
Again, as I tried to point out in my post above, it is just flat out wrong to say that the US is the only country attracting illegal economic migrants. Again, Europol's median estimate is that there are 4.5 million or so illegal immigrants in the EU, and the real number may be five times that many. The Chinese Ministry of Public Security's low estimate is that are 2.85 million illegal immigrants in China, and the real number may be eight times that many. If these ranges are anywhere near correct, the 12 million or so illegals in the US (that number being the high end of the range alleged by you nativists) is comparable in magnitude to the number of illegals in either the EU or in China at any given moment in time and perhaps even somewhat lower.
And there are, of course, EU and Chinese illegals in the US (roughly, 60,000 from the EU and 100,000 from China, the latter down by more than 60% from just 5 years earlier). There are probably also Americans working illegally int he EU and China.. many since the recession began. China estimates 40,000 Americans in China working without the proper visa authorizations (of the 300,000 Americans there legally and illegally). I couldn't find estimates for Americans working illegally in EU countries, but I would assume that it's several times that number, given the greater popularity of Europe with Americans and the linguistic synergies.
Sorry Rude, but illegals are suffering everywhere, as people from poor countries struggle to feed themselves in an inhospitable world. If you want to stop illegal immigration, stop injustice and inequality. As long as people need to cross borders to survive and get ahead, they will.
urbanist, not that your overall post is wrong, there are a lot of people dropped off on turkish and greek beaches but they are not from turkey but mostly from african countries like ghana, somalia and from east, pakistan, bengladesh and afghanistan.
they enter turkey because it is easier than entering the eu countries and exploited by turkish slave delivery sea captains and drivers with small size boats and tir trucks and packed-in like sardines. sometimes they are picked up from one fishing town and dropped off to another, telling them they are in italy or greece. sometimes tragic bad luck strikes and floating dead bodies are picked up by coast guard or beached on touristic locations. mediterranean coast is historically very porous and it is europe's longest coastline, impossible to control. there is human trafficking in all areas there.
another route is originating from west africa via canary islands terminating in portugal, france, england and sometimes in spain and italy, after passing gibraltar. these people are charged their life savings for this trip and their passports and identifications are hold by the slave traders (yes, slavery exists in developed world) and put to work upon their arrivals. the jobs are usually illegal jobs consisting of removing hazardous material from industrial sites while otherwise strict authorities turn their heads the other way, prostitution, retail drug trading and such. they live in underground sewer systems, in garbage dumps and in other inhumane conditions. they exhaust the political asylum laws and social programs. it is a diatribe to expect them to respect the laws of the countries they set their foot and used as slaves. a lot of children are there too.
these are the results of centuries long brutal and exploitative colonizations, support of dictatorial regimes for siphoning wealth and minerals, appetite for cheap consumer goods and self entitlement to earth's resources.
anybody who still thinks we went to iraq and caused millions of their citizens to die or mimed because we wanted 'democracy,' are liars. we are there to simply get their oil cheap and control the petroleum rich region. i mean, who cares for some goddamn muslim iraqis killing each other or killed by 'allies,' right?
actually, we are all watching this cross borders immigration problem to get worst, coming up with draconian solutions based on political exploitations and populism, not valuing human lives based on ethnicity and religious beliefs, keep satisfying our consuming ways and simply continuing our selfish short lives. i can guarantee the situation will get worse whether or not you secure arizona borders and check id's on police barricades and eventually it will turn into a warfare at this rate of political opportunism and save the day bs. the future wars most likely won't be between nations. the social unrests of the future will not be contained.
the numbers of 'have nots' in many wealthy societies have either reached to critical levels or just about to. the real problem is not the color of the skin or a stamp on your passport, but economic disparity.
go ahead, secure your border and live in highly controlled communities, but sooner or later the fire is going to jump the walls.
it is inevitable that uncontaminated water, breathable air and farmable soil will be much more valuable to 'human beings' than anything else.
greener grass of today might turn into the scorched plots of tomorrow.
geography is a fascinating field.
wow.. didn't know that was going on vis a vis Turkey and Greece. Shocking.
one more thought - the last time anyone's heard Rude's argument that illegal immigrants are "unsustainable" was under Goebbel's propaganda in Nazi Germany (the Nazi propagandists claimed that Jews and other "auxiliary races" were filthy and harmed the environment, which must be kept uncluttered and pristine for the Aryan master race).
Once again, you're putting youself in great company rude. With respct, your lack of humanity s exceeded only by your ignorance
The reality is almost precisely the opposite. Unsustainable and environmentally destructive practices - some of which were abetted by our own corporations - serve as "push" factor for migrants, driving them to our shores to look for a better opportunity to survive, once their own soils, natural resources, water, fuels, dry land, etc are drawn down and depleted to below the point of meaningful subsistance. Environmental and resource failures also lead to war and crime in vulnerable developing countries, and that in turn causes refugees and still more migrants, both legal and illegal.
"AZ Immigration Law"/SB 1070 - Your Thoughts?
Ps. I misspelled you're Hispanic.
oh almost forgot Paradox is a Bitch.
How does Archinect allow the use of sentences like "You're a bitch" and don't ban the person? I don't understand.
oh you probably didn't read a little document called the Bill of Rights! Bitch.
"risk of jail time"
That's just it, emilio.
Under currently law, getting busted for illegal immigration is a slap on the wrist, $200-$1000 dollar fine and put on a bus or place and sent to Juarez or Tijuana.
(If you don't pay your fine, there's obviously jail time involved.)
But, they're basically trying to find new ways of being able to charge people and put them into the jail system.
well if your legal alien its only cause your married with a US citizen and became legal or either your parents were illegal and then they became legal (immigration reform). so how can a legal alien says that "hates illegal aliens'? make no sense. plus some immigrants are just trying to improve their life, yet their are some that only cause trouble and those are the one that should be sent back and let their countries to deal with them (put them in Jail).
The hypocrisy shown by people arguing for these punitive laws is so thick you need a jackhammer to cut through it.
They claim that immigrants should follow laws, conveniently ignoring that the country was expanded through the unabashed breaking of immigration laws. Look at the list of treaties with the Native Americans. Most of them are actually coercing the natives into giving up areas of land they have lived on for many generations or face grave consequences, but in some cases (like the Treaty of Fort Laramie), the government, recognizing that certain areas were so important and sacred to a specific tribe, agreed in a treaty to give them sole ownership (as if that was their right to do, since they didn’t own it in the first place) of said land “as long as grass grow and wind blow and the sky is blue.” Now were these not essentially immigrant laws? That is, no “pioneers” were to settle there and build houses and hunt and farm…no immigration, then. And these were legal documents, signed by elected representatives of the US government. How well did the country observe those “laws”, how did that work out for the natives?
Now, I don’t really blame the people who went west, crossed prairies, mountain passes, and deserts, got to a place very tired and with hardly any food left and saw land for the taking: they were just trying to feed their families too, and they didn’t give a fuck about a piece of paper either. I do blame the government for not enforcing those treaties, just the opposite, breaking them with impunity and sending the full force of the military in many cases to do so. So our ancestors were rewarded for breaking immigration laws by getting ownership of basically the whole country and its riches, no punishment whatsoever.
But now we want harsh sanctions and jail time to punish people who come here with no legal papers but with the intention of pure survival for them and their children, same as the wagon train people, and not even to get any land (because that’s already all spoken for) but just to try to make a little money at mostly menial, back-breaking jobs. Yea, let's develop ever more punitive laws against these people, because, you know, we’re so morally superior to them and would never, ever do anything like that were we in their place.
Forget the jackhammer, you need an industrial laser.
when there were too many europeans, they passed the 1965 immigration act - it's been 45 years of social engineering. pile on top of that illegals from the same demography as cultivated by the law. fair is fair, and there is a law in place assuring fairness via legal path.
illegal immigration becomes disparate when it is so easy to walk across a border when others need to cross an ocean. many see an invasion. I think mexicans see it as displacing / compensating for any more that come from across the ocean. Native land...There are the geographical and the national component at odds. Similar argument as the palestinians
The whole illegal immigration issue is a big nothing, a bogus issue, a bogey-man, a smokescreen, both here and in Europe (and other countries as well), usually spouted by the right wing (see post above this one) to divert attention from real issues and politician's ineptitude and failures. "Hey, great citizens (or subjects, as the case may be) the economy is is the dumpster and you lost your job, and you can't afford basic necessities, but don't look at the nitwit bankers and traders, don't look at us politicians and leaders, hell, don't even sometimes look in your bathroom mirror, no, no: it's all the fault of the invading marauders from [fill in the name of country] infiltrating illegally and ruining our way of life". What a great target immigrants (legal and illegal) make: don't speak the language, don't own property, have no political power...perfect target, just perfect, uniting people behind another nothing issue (see the Tea Party manifesto for the other ones).
As I wrote in my previous post, if the people screaming and railing about this issue were in the place of the immigrants, if the situation was reversed, they would do the same fucking thing, only worse. For instance, picture a scenario where the recent stand off between the Koreas, or something between Iran and Israel, goes out of control and results in a nasty nuclear war: most of the US becomes unlivable, radiation all over, no food supplies, no gasoline. Canada and Mexico, being considered non-entities in the world domination game, get away relatively unscathed. They immediately impose immigration quotas from the US so as not to destabilize their own countries: what are the chances most of the US populace would hesitate even one second before pouring across the borders. Hell, the fucktards who are proposing and voting for those laws in AZ would immediately round up all available weapons and form militias and cross into Mexico and confiscate buildings and property at will, all the while ranting about "God given rights" and "Manifest Destiny" and all the usual garbage.
Man, where's George Carlin when you really need him.
Oh, and McCarthy is a dead bag of pestering, bloviating, rancid, putrid pus (and was so when still alive) if anybody ever was.
"see two posts above this one", that is.
or no posts above, apparently.....
"well if your legal alien its only cause your married with a US citizen and became legal or either your parents were illegal and then they became legal (immigration reform). so how can a legal alien says that "hates illegal aliens'?"
How is that IGNORANCE working for you? My cousin came here with student visa and 0$ dollars in his account(because he was too proud to take money from his parents),he finished graduate school with a degree in computer science and he worked his ass off to pay for the grad school and the rent and after the grad school his employer sponsored him and in 3-4 months he will be getting his green card so will his wife because her employer sponsored her too!
Educate yourself ignorant!
"I don't know about you, but when I'm looking down at my kids and they have an empty plate and a bloated stomach, I'm gonna go anywhere there's a possibility of making some money...fuck the laws."
What Emilio said: I'll make children despite of my financial situation,I'll make children although I don't have the money to take care of them('cos my libido is high and I don't like using birth control) and I'll break the laws of the nearest country,get free welfare,free healthcare and jobs without paying tax because I don't give a s**t about the laws or the citizens of that country and I only care about myself.Selfishness..No wonder architects are so broke these days...
Somebody get me a bucket...
How is that IGNORANCE working for you? My cousin came here with student visa and 0$ dollars in his account(because he was too proud to take money from his parents),he finished graduate school with a degree in computer science and he worked his ass off to pay for the grad school and the rent and after the grad school his employer sponsored him and in 3-4 months he will be getting his green card so will his wife because her employer sponsored her too!
Educate yourself ignorant!
thats your cousin not you.. but still dint he migrate to the US for a better life?? dint you as well ( whether you are legal or not).. some people think they are better than others just cause they hold a "card".. i bet there are smarter people than you crossing the border illegally.. why you hate them so much???
"thats your cousin not you.. but still dint he migrate to the US for a better life?? dint you as well ( whether you are legal or not).. some people think they are better than others just cause they hold a "card".. i bet there are smarter people than you crossing the border illegally.. why you hate them so much???"
Yes we all migrated here for a better life and we did it the LEGAL way.I'm sure there are smarter people out there but I know how to follow procedures HA! Some things are more important than IQ ya know!
yes but why i just dnt understand your point o hating towards other immigrants.. as far i know or i have read your from Latin America as well. wat makes you hate them like that? just asking dnt take it personal just wondering you know!
Where did you read that I was from Latin America? Too much gossip is going around here.I'm from the other side of the world.
"i just dnt understand your point o hating towards other immigrants.. "
Not immigrants.I like immigrants.I'm an immigrant myself.I have a problem with "illegal aliens".
Paradoxx86 said:
"Here the race card again..Apparently you never saw a person of Hispanic origin supporting the Arizona law. (Because I did! Sshhhhh)"
So what Hispanic group do you come from?
Paradoxx let me interpret what these people are all trying to say to you in language you understand.
"Paradox is a bitch"
"Here the race card again..Apparently you never saw a person of Hispanic origin supporting the Arizona law. (Because I did! Sshhhhh)"
Apparently I was referring to a 3rd person and not me.I guess you couldn't figure that out...oh well.
Too bad you can't come up with anything wiser than "Parad0xx is a bitch".It happens when a person is unable to communicate in words so he/she starts using insults and violent behavior and it is a real irony to see a person who is supposedly trying to eliminate hatred to behave in a such a violent and sexist way.I pity you.
ok if you're from the other side of the world.... why your so sorry about the people from the this part of the world??!?! let it go girl and do us a favor.. i wont be surprise if the laws change in the next couple of yrs and you end up being deported... karma is a b...!
worried*
I have good news for you Paradoxx86 even if your from the other side of the world you could still be a BITCH.
Why is a person like you from as you say " the other side of the world."
talking shit about the Native Americans?
Why is a person like you from the other side of the world who could not handle 16 credits of college course work and had to take 5 years to complete a 4 year bachelor degree,as you said on a different thread, talking as if you know what the ills of this country are?
Your only contribution to this country as far as i can tell is absolutely nothing, hell illegal immigrants have payed more taxes to social security than you ever will in your lifetime.
Please stop talking about Native Americans as if you know what happened on this continent, this country because your family from the other side of the world, does not know anything about the natives or the injustices that happened to them, some of us had relatives that saw it all happen. And its something that Americans especially White Americans do not want to revisit.
just in case i forgot to mention it.
i still think Paradoxx is a BITCH.
What hurts my eyes are your grammatical mistakes more than your errr..not very bright or well thought posts sivarch.If you need an English tutor I'm here to help you you know.
pls.. sorry you're not used to american English...
"i still think Paradoxx is a BITCH." You're entitled to your opinions (which nobody gives a poop about) :)
ok BITCH
"i wont be surprise if the laws change in the next couple of yrs and you end up being deported..."
*surprise: correction:surprised
*yrs:years
"yes but why i just dnt understand your point o hating towards other immigrants.. as far i know or i have read your from Latin America as well. wat makes you hate them like that? just asking dnt take it personal just wondering you know!"
dnt:don't
o:of
wat:what
That's my knowledge of American English so far.Uhmm am I missing something? :)
ok let it go.. and i hope they change the AZ law whether paradox like it or not. just remember that they paid taxes as well and probly more than any other immigrant, yet they will never get the respect and benefits of citizens.
please if i had your time i would be looking into grammar as well... stop hijacking the thread please miss paradoxx86...
Sounds like you need a good ol American can of ass whoop. Don't worry if you don't get the joke, i'm sure one day you will piss off the wrong American and he/she will give you one maybe more than one if you like.
ps. goodnight paradox you Bitch
MORE NUMBERS
yes, Rude, 'cause everything one reads on far right wing wingnut bogs must be true. I feel filthy even seeing that website. Please warn us about what you link next time.
I should add, that my issues with your worldview have very little to do with your views on immigration or even race. I dislike populists, demagogues and wingnuts even more than I despise nativists. Even if every last illegal ... and every every last legal immigrant, like Paradoxx here, went back home to whatever alien shore from which they came and it was just down to "real" Americans like us, I'd still think you are dangerous. Your incendiary and provocative demagogueing on the Top Kill thread validates my feelings about you. Now, please go away.
Geertrude had a deadbeat illegal alien mexican father who he never met and who abused his mom while molesting his sister. Really sad story that made poor Geert a Klan reject even with his blue eyes from the mother's side. That's okay lil Geert, we won't hurt you. You are safe here.
Urbanist: demagouge-ing? You're a fool - I care more about the environment than you'll ever know - no need to demogogue the bandwagon environmentalists.
SpadeKing - You're a fool's sock puppet. I think you both are your own undoing - you sound like a couple of inner-city ghetto rats with a free college education.
We all know your type.
Well, i dont see how that^ or just calling people a bitch is productive.
"I'll make children despite of my financial situation,I'll make children although I don't have the money to take care of them('cos my libido is high and I don't like using birth control) and I'll break the laws of the nearest country,get free welfare,free healthcare and jobs without paying tax because I don't give a s**t about the laws or the citizens of that country and I only care about myself."
Look, you just have no idea whatsoever what real poverty is. Poverty here is not like poverty there. Most of these people dont have money for birth control. Most of the time they dont even have access to birth control. They dont come here for the goddamned free healthcare. They come here because they dont want to die early and poor, and where they are there is no possibility whatsoever of anything else. These people are very often escaping abuse and desperation on scales I dont think you could imagine. Anyone whose been to rural south america or africa or india can testify to this. Here when people are poor they cant pay their cable bill. There mothers abandon their children to the streets because they can barely afford to feed themselves. Indians are pretty well known for a cultural devotion to learning and achievement and work ethic that makes the average american look like an overmedicated factory sow, and poverty there is quite possibly worse than anywhere on earth, so I really dont want to hear any more of this of this crypto-racist horseshit about who's too lazy and stupid to carve some meaning out of their lives.
This has everything to do who was lucky enough to be born in a place with stable institutions, and nothing whatsoever to do with whose intentions are more nefarious than others. Everyone on earth just wants a comfortable life for their family, for some hope life will be better for their children than it was for them. Thats as true of them as it is of you. Because you were lucky enough to have the option to come here and be welcomed and have institutional opportunities instead of being racially scapegoated doesnt make you morally superior.
oe - you've made a completely logical argument, but what everyone refuses to acknowledge is:
1) There are TOO MANY Illegal Immigrants - it's unsustainable.
2) Why can't other countries host the same promise for their people?
3) The immigration act of 1965 has made it fair for all countries to come here, and to put a limit on how many whites come here.
The streets of America are not paved with gold.
If a thief broke into your house would you allow him to live in your house oe?
So are you telling us that the US should take in all the poor people coming in oe? Even of they are 40-60 millions in number? If so how do you think the US can support all those people? With what money?
3) If we only allow hispanic people to come over here wouldn't it be counter racist for the other people because there are so many poor people in Africa/middle east/eastern europe etc. why don't we put them in ships and planes,bring them over there and let them work? Why the special treatment?
4) In Frac's post the illegal guy stayed here for 6 years and didn't even bother learning English.Doesn't that tell us he doesn't really want to be a part of this country? I think all his concern is making money and send it back to Mexico.
Your posts are great and very emotionally loaded.We don't agree on this point: if a person breaks a law to come over here should he be rewarded with a job and other benefits? I say no and you say yes.So as a yes person you also need to provide the solutions.If you can't,I'll politely ask you to sit down and shut your mouth.
actually, illegal immigration is by no means restricted to the US. People cross borders into and work illegally wherever there are economic opportunities.
A little bit of googling reveals that EU's Europol estimates that there are between 2.6 to 6.4 illegals in their region, mostly from Africa, Turkey, Ex-CIS, and Latin America. Last year, Greek naval forces were filmed throwing captured Turkish illegals overboard near Turkish beaches, causing an international scandal. Spanish police have been caught shooting illegals fro
Morocco trying to enter the two Spansh enclaves on the African coast and the Spanish border walls at those enclaves rival the US border infrastructure system in San Diego.
The Chinese Ministry of Public Security estimates that there are (bases on official records) at least 2.85 illegals, mostly from the Mekong States, Africa, Korea and the ex-CIS working in their countries, and that real figure may be as a high as a shocking 26 million illegals. A series of immigration raids on Guangzhou's Little Africa over the last two years netted nearly 100,000 illegals but caused riots when a Nigerian migrant was killed during a raid.
Check out http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2010-04/11/content_9713105.htm for an interesting account of border patrol activities on the Yunnan-Vietnam border.
I think this is a pretty debatable assertion. In a lot of ways these people actually prop up the economy in many states. Having low labor costs is hugely important to economic competitiveness, and very often is the only thing preventing companies from moving production and the money it generates to other countries. Allowing their kids into public schools and treating them when they get sick or hurt working difficult jobs seems like the absolute least we could do.
The US has a lot of unsustainable policies; we consume more than we produce, we dont allocate basic services like education and healthcare in anything like a fair or intelligent way, we are completely enslaved to fake money and non-renewable resources and the companies that control them, and to compensate for all that, we have to spend half the federal budget on debt interest and military misadventureism. I dont think its difficult to argue the cost of providing basic services to immigrants is the least of our problems.
2) Why can't other countries host the same promise for their people?
Many do! But if youre asking why some countries have more more wealth or more stable governments than others, I think thats a pretty complicated question to answer. Im sure geography and resources are a huge part of it, but half the time it just seems to be historical accidents. What if the ottomans hadnt lost the battle of vienna? What if china had sent ships to colonize america before europeans did? Or some enterprising mayan invented democracy or the steam-engine?
I dont think it matters. None of us gets to choose where we are born. If people cross a border to find a better life because their country is run by banana republican thugs (inserted by the CIA) or drug gangs (bankrolled by americas raging coke habit) its pretty difficult for me to fault them.
There are certainly huge sociological problems with immigration. That the immigrants themselves are by-nature malicious freeloaders isnt one of them.
3) The immigration act of 1965 has made it fair for all countries to come here, and to put a limit on how many whites come here.
3) If we only allow hispanic people to come over here wouldn't it be counter racist for the other people because there are so many poor people in Africa/middle east/eastern europe etc. why don't we put them in ships and planes,bring them over there and let them work? Why the special treatment?
I'll take these together. You guys take this a matter of strait numbers, ie, more people come here from latin america than from europe. I take it as accommodation proportional to demand, ie, the policy of the united states largely accommodates the demand for immigration from europe, whereas there is an enormous, deliberate disparity between the number of people who wish to immigrate from latin america and the numbers we legally allow in. The real difference I see between us is you think if we let in every legitimate person who wished to come, we would destroy the economic and cultural viability of the US, where I think we would enhance it. You think the cost of providing basic services to immigrants outweighs the economic benefit and increased competitiveness their labor brings. I think this is not only historically absurd, but implies that these people are somehow inherently and permanently less than net-zero human beings, that unlike basically all other humans on earth, the work they provide is worth less than what it costs to keep them alive. This isnt just obviously, blindingly false, it actually really bothers me that people could be led to believe something so inhuman.
4) In Frac's post the illegal guy stayed here for 6 years and didn't even bother learning English.Doesn't that tell us he doesn't really want to be a part of this country? I think all his concern is making money and send it back to Mexico.
I just find it telling when people have to resort to anecdotes, thats all. I dont look at Jeffrey Dahmer and think 'Wow! all blonde white guys with dorky glasses are psychopathic cannibals.'
I think a lot of people on both sides have posted some pretty reasonable solutions. Personally, I think if we were to increase the legal immigration caps, if we created a system for naturalizing people who are already a part of our communities, pay penalties, back taxes, go through the same process all legal immigrants are required to, we could then devote border protection resources to more productive tasks like targeting drug runners and arms traffickers. If ordinary people were legally allowed to enter, then you would know, for instance, that anyone crossing the desert was probably doing something destructive, rather than having to scatter patrols all over sifting through hundreds of people just trying to find work. If you dont do the border security stuff in concert with integration programs, youre just throwing money away arresting poor, generally well-meaning people and not effectively tackling the real problems.
2) Why can't other countries host the same promise for their people?
Many do! But if youre asking why some countries have more more wealth or more stable governments than others, I think thats a pretty complicated question to answer.
----------
Again, as I tried to point out in my post above, it is just flat out wrong to say that the US is the only country attracting illegal economic migrants. Again, Europol's median estimate is that there are 4.5 million or so illegal immigrants in the EU, and the real number may be five times that many. The Chinese Ministry of Public Security's low estimate is that are 2.85 million illegal immigrants in China, and the real number may be eight times that many. If these ranges are anywhere near correct, the 12 million or so illegals in the US (that number being the high end of the range alleged by you nativists) is comparable in magnitude to the number of illegals in either the EU or in China at any given moment in time and perhaps even somewhat lower.
And there are, of course, EU and Chinese illegals in the US (roughly, 60,000 from the EU and 100,000 from China, the latter down by more than 60% from just 5 years earlier). There are probably also Americans working illegally int he EU and China.. many since the recession began. China estimates 40,000 Americans in China working without the proper visa authorizations (of the 300,000 Americans there legally and illegally). I couldn't find estimates for Americans working illegally in EU countries, but I would assume that it's several times that number, given the greater popularity of Europe with Americans and the linguistic synergies.
Sorry Rude, but illegals are suffering everywhere, as people from poor countries struggle to feed themselves in an inhospitable world. If you want to stop illegal immigration, stop injustice and inequality. As long as people need to cross borders to survive and get ahead, they will.
urbanist, not that your overall post is wrong, there are a lot of people dropped off on turkish and greek beaches but they are not from turkey but mostly from african countries like ghana, somalia and from east, pakistan, bengladesh and afghanistan.
they enter turkey because it is easier than entering the eu countries and exploited by turkish slave delivery sea captains and drivers with small size boats and tir trucks and packed-in like sardines. sometimes they are picked up from one fishing town and dropped off to another, telling them they are in italy or greece. sometimes tragic bad luck strikes and floating dead bodies are picked up by coast guard or beached on touristic locations. mediterranean coast is historically very porous and it is europe's longest coastline, impossible to control. there is human trafficking in all areas there.
another route is originating from west africa via canary islands terminating in portugal, france, england and sometimes in spain and italy, after passing gibraltar. these people are charged their life savings for this trip and their passports and identifications are hold by the slave traders (yes, slavery exists in developed world) and put to work upon their arrivals. the jobs are usually illegal jobs consisting of removing hazardous material from industrial sites while otherwise strict authorities turn their heads the other way, prostitution, retail drug trading and such. they live in underground sewer systems, in garbage dumps and in other inhumane conditions. they exhaust the political asylum laws and social programs. it is a diatribe to expect them to respect the laws of the countries they set their foot and used as slaves. a lot of children are there too.
these are the results of centuries long brutal and exploitative colonizations, support of dictatorial regimes for siphoning wealth and minerals, appetite for cheap consumer goods and self entitlement to earth's resources.
anybody who still thinks we went to iraq and caused millions of their citizens to die or mimed because we wanted 'democracy,' are liars. we are there to simply get their oil cheap and control the petroleum rich region. i mean, who cares for some goddamn muslim iraqis killing each other or killed by 'allies,' right?
actually, we are all watching this cross borders immigration problem to get worst, coming up with draconian solutions based on political exploitations and populism, not valuing human lives based on ethnicity and religious beliefs, keep satisfying our consuming ways and simply continuing our selfish short lives. i can guarantee the situation will get worse whether or not you secure arizona borders and check id's on police barricades and eventually it will turn into a warfare at this rate of political opportunism and save the day bs. the future wars most likely won't be between nations. the social unrests of the future will not be contained.
the numbers of 'have nots' in many wealthy societies have either reached to critical levels or just about to. the real problem is not the color of the skin or a stamp on your passport, but economic disparity.
go ahead, secure your border and live in highly controlled communities, but sooner or later the fire is going to jump the walls.
it is inevitable that uncontaminated water, breathable air and farmable soil will be much more valuable to 'human beings' than anything else.
greener grass of today might turn into the scorched plots of tomorrow.
geography is a fascinating field.
wow.. didn't know that was going on vis a vis Turkey and Greece. Shocking.
one more thought - the last time anyone's heard Rude's argument that illegal immigrants are "unsustainable" was under Goebbel's propaganda in Nazi Germany (the Nazi propagandists claimed that Jews and other "auxiliary races" were filthy and harmed the environment, which must be kept uncluttered and pristine for the Aryan master race).
Once again, you're putting youself in great company rude. With respct, your lack of humanity s exceeded only by your ignorance
The reality is almost precisely the opposite. Unsustainable and environmentally destructive practices - some of which were abetted by our own corporations - serve as "push" factor for migrants, driving them to our shores to look for a better opportunity to survive, once their own soils, natural resources, water, fuels, dry land, etc are drawn down and depleted to below the point of meaningful subsistance. Environmental and resource failures also lead to war and crime in vulnerable developing countries, and that in turn causes refugees and still more migrants, both legal and illegal.
How'd the May 29 Protest Go - anyone here? Anyone?
Mexica Movement
nice red x's, Rude.
They were just images of the many you can find / have found / love on the website above, and here: http://www.mexica-movement.org/
Another: http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Police%3a+Murder+suspect+confessed+when+confronted+with+fingerprint+match&articleId=a6816de4-0366-4646-93d4-54f58e56267d
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