As someone who's ripe for potential in a cult, I'd appreciate if you'd stop throwing around the term "kool aid" so liberally.

I don't go into your church and shit in your wine or piss in your holy water. To many in cults, drinking kool aid is the final act of salvation and ascension.

Thank you kind for correcting that in the future. Using that phrase casually in conversation is like throwing around the word nazi and genocide.... oh wait.

(Que Brigham Young rant.)

(Respond with a mountain massacre of rationalism.)

(Point out inaccuracy that is Mountain Meadows Massacre incriminating self as obvious mormon.)

(Snicker at the concept that you want me (and us) to take advice from a man who murdered a bunch of Methodists trying to buy food on their way to California.)

(Moderator Intervention.)

(Post hundreds of images of cocks.)

(USER WAS BANNED FOR THAT POST.)

Now you are just raving mad and frothing at the mouth.

Struck a nerve of truth did I?...

I'm a Partner in a medium sized firm and I thought I would share my experience. When I was applying to Architecture schools in the late 1970's it was a terrible time in Architecture...very similar to now, especially in NYC. Development/Construction is really a boom or bust cycle. My father tried to talk me out of going into Architecture. I grew up in an upper middle class family. My father said that I would never be able to support myself in the manner in which I had grown up so I would always feel poor. I went on an got an MArch. which did not cost all that much because the price of College had not gone through the roof yet...which is part of today's problems. I have reviewed a lot of resumes and hired a lot of Interns and I can tell you honestly I do not think a MArch is worth it. We do not pay a dime more for an MArch over a Bachelor's. You are basically green when you come out of school and need to be taught the Land Use Code, Building Code, co-ordination of the other disciplines, how materials are detailed, contract construction management, etc. It takes a lot of time to learn the practical side of Architecture.
Anyway, when I got my first job in NYC in the 1980's I made $22,000 and I had to get a second job as a waitress on the weekends to support myself. This was very common in the 70's and 80's among young Architects that I knew. Also, practically every major Architect with a firm was helping support themselves by teaching. Because of my father's advice I knew from the beginning that I had to start my own firm or become a Partner in an existing firm. I got along very well with the Sole Proprietor at a major NYC firm when it was still a small 15 person firm. I used to ask him all kinds of questions about how he got started, what did it take to get a project, what are the attributes you need to be a successful Partner. Well, he figured me out pretty quick and mentored me. When I got to be a Project Architect I made a strategic decision to not concentrate on design positions. I wanted to learn Project Management and the business of Architecture. I moved to a city I thought had a lot of growth potential and I got a job at a large firm as a PM. I sought out the Partner in Charge of Marketing and worked on a lot of proposals and interviews to learn how to get the job...on top of my job as a PM. I next started to look for small firms that I could potentially join and become a Partner. I joined a small firm and became a Partner two years later. I make six figures as a base salary and a third of the profits..which were great until last year! I guess my advice to all you young Architects is that this is an Industry that always has ups and downs and if you are going to stay in this profession you need to prepare for that. And if you want to make money it is there to be made if your name is on the door....how you get it on the door whether you hang out your own shingle or work your way up are your choices.

Oh, and we start out Interns in the mid 40's and I don't believe in 50-60 hour work weeks.

And I had my children after I became a Partner

In many cases, the M.Arch is a requirement to pursue a license, assuming you only got the 4 year B.Arch degree. Yes there are states that still allow substitution of work experience for the professional degree, but more and more NCARB requires the M.Arch (or 5 year program) as part of the long (and expensive) license process.

Not saying that was the sole reason I went for the M.Arch, but it was one of many.

This whining about salary grows tiresome.

Many people, including myself, love this profession and don't care about how much we make in comparison to doctors or lawyers.

Most students know what their salary expectations are about a year or two in. Get over it.

SeaArch thank you for the specificity of the wisdom that you have shared. So refreshing to hear more than hollow platitudes.

Of course, anyone hearing your story would be moronic to not hope for the same exceptional results that have resulted from your work ethic and stratagem.

To Winston:







TAKE THE HINT.

Thanks to the wonderful people @ www.rainbowzombiesatemyunicorn.de

And by hint, I meant appreciate lovely My Little Ponies... duh!

Why do I get the feeling that all of this "do it because you love it" and "[I] don't care about how much [I] make in comparison to doctors or lawyers [and neither should you or else you are just mean]" tripe usually comes from the mouth of those who didn't come from an upper middle class home so they have no idea what they are missing out on when the profession only offers a lower middle class existence?

Oh, because its usually the case.

What grows tiresome to the minority of us, who did come from upper middle class homes, is the relentless satisfaction most people in this profession seem to derive from being average instead of exceptional.

It's not the profession's fault that you come from an upper middle class family. suck it up to your own poor decisions and spare us already.

You are right; the profession had nothing to do with it. Its too pathetic to have had anything to do with it.

Winston, weren't you recently going on about the same thing under the name piggy?

Seriously, get over it. No one wants to hear it.

i have never heard so much fucking whining from an upper middle class white prig in my life. your privileged parents must find you a bore on holidays, with you holding your binky and sucking your thumb.

grow a pair, oh wait, your wife has them. you should ask for them back.

no wonder i identify with the Cutters.

Winston: speaking of specificity, your posts lack them just as much as those who ooze platitudes. I'm sorry if you're bitter that you got laid off, or if the profession as a whole isn't what you expected, but the person responsible for those expectations is you. Every person in this world is not born with the right to an upper-middle-class lifestyle. You certainly have the right to try for such a lifestyle, but there is nothing that makes you entitled to it, which is the expectation you appear to have.

montagneux: I really, really get why you're annoyed with Winston. Believe me, I understand. When someone personalizes a thread like this and feels the need to argue against every single post, it's obnoxious. But telling someone to kill themselves is not classy, and is not winning any arguments or respect.

Just had to put that out there...

being anonymous on the internet is really the best place to blame everyone else for your own problems or unhappiness


eventually though you need to wake up and take responsibility for your own career and any problems you yourself have with it. The AIA isnt out to get you, no matter how many times its written on a webpage

Cheer up

I didn't read every post, but 50k is definitely good enough to live on .. for my standards at least. And I live in the New York Metropolitan area. What is everyone complaining about?

You know I usually feel the worste about architecture when I find myself hanging out too much with other architects. I'm not refering to the exchange of ideas during a creative process, that's the fun part.

But this constant ranting about how everyone (no, some people) is so dissapointed with the profession is a real downer, especially when we start talking about upper middle class aspirations. Please, accross the country those dreams have been shattered and people will be lucky to recover them when things turn around.

If you don't like the profession, move on. Simple.

As for me, there's nothing else I'd want to do. I don't care if it requires a night job during these hard times. But the process of designing a building and watching it come off the ground is more rewarding than any other type of work I could possibly do.

And being jealous of the money doctors and lawers make is simply pathetic.

"Washington DC and New York.
You cannot afford to live in those cities today and make less than 45k a year even as an intern"

Yes you can. I am. Even with a fair amount of student loan debt.

Maybe you can't, but i know a TON of people that are.

I can't speak specifically for the entire country but teachers in the upper mid-west are very well paid. States like IL, WI, MN & IA are all very generous. Coming from a family of many people in public education I have relatives that hire K-12 teachers right out of college at $40k+ with benefits that would make any Architect jealous. These same relatives were very surprised that I started in the low 30's when they were hiring teachers at significant higher rates. Oh, and inner-city teachers usually make equal or more than surburban teachers since states typically throw more funding at the underperforming districts.

Sure, good teachers do work beyond the 6 hour school day, but none of the classroom teachers I know work "architect" hours. Meanwhile they live in the same middle-income neighborhoods that Architects live in and drive the same cars, etc. Additionally, the path towards advancement is very clear cut in education. Additional education/credentials and years of working move you up the ladder quite quickly. In Architecture it's a much less defined path.

I don't mean to make it sound like teachers have it easy, but in general, they aren't the income sob story people make them out ot be. Would I do it. Not a chance. Have some friends that are teachers and I'll take a shitty client over controlling 30 middle school aged kids every day.

"You know I usually feel the worste about architecture when I find myself hanging out too much with other architects."

I feel exactly the same way, trace


Whenever i get together with my friends from school, it usually turns into a bunch of complaining, whining about having to study for exams, bitching about NCARB and how they didnt accept someone's hours....It's all a bunch of "woe is me" crap

Marked for inflation $22k in 1985 is over $43k in 2009.

I've had a couple bosses bring up their starting salaries when I was asking for a raise. In every case the number they stated was actually more (accounting for inflation) than I was earning at that exact same time.

Architecture is not alone as an industry where wages have not kept up with inflation. But it does bother me when "old timers" talk about the low salaries they started at, because in general they are better than today's starting salaries.

Overall, I think the salary discussion is heating up because the current economy makes the advancement that SeaArch experienced that much more difficult. Asking questions, learning new things, etc. was something that management nurtured in good times. Today staff Architects such as myself are told to produce...make the company money. Learning PM skills or marketing from shadowing senior people, etc. costs money and has slipped by the side. It's just not a priorty. I get why and the priority should be having a profitable company. Then again, there is a generation of Architects that are under a glass ceiling of advancement because of the current economy.

I'd love to work for people like archie or SeaArch. Both sound like very good employers and the fact that they are willing to post on a message board like Archinect is proof they "care" about the profession. Then again, most management doesn't bother to read Archinect. Most of the principals/partners out there aren't in-tune with the profession like you might think.

I am sure SeaArch is a very capable, smart individual. Her story should be an inspiration to young architects, but it is not as unusual as you may think. My story is similar, and I know many other architects who could tell you similar success stories.

I disagree that there are not the same opportunities for young architects today. I am in the process of trying to transition over my firm to younger employees. It is ridiculously difficult. It was much easier to start and grow a business than it is to turn it over. An no, I am not asking an arm and a leg for the firm, in fact no payment of any kind is required. The transition would be funded out of profits. One employee turned down the offer because he did not want to be a manager ofother employees, (at least he knows himself!) one would be a great partner, but she has yet to be licensed, and says she can't possible find the time to take the test and pass it for at least two years, a third did not complete his 5th year of architecture school to get a professional license so can't get registered, a fourth is registered in a state other than the one we are located in and can't seem to get it together to get NCARB approved, and not one of them has been able to develop any kind of marketing skills even with coaching and spending hours and hours on marketing efforts that went no where. The only one ready, willing and able to get shares is 2 years older than me!

Part of this is my fault. When I hired, I was looking for people who had skills that complimented mine, or who could do what I could not: I was not consciously looking for may replacement. (So some advice for new business owners- start thinking abut transition 10 years before you want to do it!) Now that I have been doing that for the last 3 years, I am stunned by how few of the architects out there seem to have what it takes to run an architecture firm. And make no mistake here- if you want exceptional salaries, you need to be exceptional, and run, own, or develop a firm. The same is true for law and medicine, so don't whine about how hard it is for architects. If you are an average architect working at an average firm as an employee, you will make average wages.

And by the way, whoever earlier said that 'great firms grow leaders' was correct. That is one downfall I admit to as a "leader" of a firm. I am very much a 'do-er'. We invested a lot into staff, but with the focus of making them great project architects. I should have put less emphasis on doing management things myself and paid more attention to hiring and developing staff to be leaders as well as good architects. So learn from my regrets!

Well ... not to be an argumentative "old timer" ... but I earned my B. Arch in 1972 and started work at a mid-sized firm at $3.50 per hour. This was about the same wage, if not higher, being paid most of my classmates at that time.

Run that number through various inflation calculators to 2009 and you get anywhere from $17.75 to $17.96 per hour today. Multiply that times 2,080 and you get base compensation anywhere from $36,920 to $37,356 per year.

Per the latest AIA compensation survey (2008) median compensation for Intern 1 (entry level) labor in my community was $41,200. The lowest quartile for Intern 1 labor is reported to be $38,000.

aqua: I respect the way you post here on archinect. However, explain to me please how my starting salary was "better than today's starting salaries" ?

Stone, purchasing power parity.

Even though that's a bit of a misnomer talking about the same currency even though it is at different points in time.

The principle still applies.

While I do not have the exact data, the CPI lists that housing in new york city was given a value of 100 between 1982-1984. The current index value is 100 for that given time frame.

The index value for 2009 is 257.12. It was about ~34 in 1972.

It comes out to between a 3.5-6.5% yearly percentage change. That basically means personal costs in New York City for instance have grown disproportionally to inflation and wage adjustments.

It's not that your salary was any better... it is that you could afford more on that salary.

Also, it was easier to live 'lighter' because you know... gang violence and crack hadn't been "invented" yet.

Stone, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to generalize that everyone who started in the 70's or 80's was paid better than someone starting today. Just from my personal experience, those that have brought up their "low" wages from years ago have done so without considering inflation.

My father has told me many times about how he started off at $7000 as a ME in the mid-60's and how he lived "very well" in Chicago off that salary. He does add that he was young and didn't save a dime back then. The $32k I started at was not as good as the inflation adjusted $19k my old boss started at almost 20 years prior, but I was able to live quite well starting out, but didn't save a dime either. Things haven't really changed all that much, current economy not withstanding.

What I think is unique for the people graduating right now is the oppressive student debt. I didn't have much from state school, but even my alma matter has increased tuition at an alarming rate. Can't imagine being $100k in debt before even getting a foot in the door.

I am in the process of trying to transition over my firm to younger employees. It is ridiculously difficult.

archie, I'm simply amazed that you are offering a business to people and they are simply too lazy to do simple things for it. I have begged for mentorship, i.e. take a bigger role in marketing, etc. I'm registered and if ownership was just getting a NCARB certificate I'd be filling out the paperwork and writing the check yesterday. And honestly, the ARE's are simple compared to becoming a partner in a business. I've probably mentioned it before but my frusturation is I'm working under management that seems to believe that succession is best done by hiring outsiders. How does one respond to that?

Graduated with a B. Arch in 1985. In my first job in Houston, I made $14,000. A friend in NYC started at $18,000 in 1985. Her boyfriend, who had a master's from Columbia, started at $20,000. (Trust me, those salaries sucked even back then.)

After 10 years, in 1995, I moved to San Francisco, making $50,000 a year. But I quickly realized that with barely habitable dumps going for $250,000, as a single architect I would never be afford even that. I moved back to Houston (taking a pay cut to $44,000). My income rose steadily for the next 13 years, and I was able to live comfortably on my salary, buy a house and take a couple of nice trips a year. I got married in 2004.

My highest salary was 3 years ago (project manager, licensed, 22 years experience) at $94,000 with an average annual bonus of about $5,000. But I was not on a principal track at that firm, so I left for a chance to become a partner at a smaller firm. I took a $9,000 pay cut to $85,000 to go there.

Then the Recession hit. The 10% bonuses that the smaller firm had been paying disappeared. We held on through all of last year, but it finally caught up with us, and as this month PM's & higher have taken 20% paycuts. The rest of the staff is taking a 10% cut.

So I am now, after 25 years in the business, making $68,000. I suspect that it will be three or four years before my salary recovers to the high-80's. I am lucky that my husband and I saved a substantial amount of money. He was laid off two weeks ago, but we have enough resources to last us at least a year and a half without tapping retirement accounts. I doubt that I could say that if I were still single. Having two incomes goes a long way towards making this career work. Another thing is living fairly frugally. One architect friend drove his Honda Accord for 13 years. Another rarely spent money on clothes or electronics, saving her money for her IRA and the exotic trips she took once or twice a year. Many of us take advantage of our few perks: discounts from vendors, to help upgrade & furnish our homes to stretch a buck.

What makes me jealous after 25 years as an architect isn't my lawyer friend who makes 5 times my salary but who never takes time off. It's friends my age at larger corporations or government jobs who have twice as much vacation time and holidays as I do. It's pretty discouraging to have worked for 25 years and still only get the same 2 weeks vacation, 5 sick days, and 6 paid holidays a year that the 21-year-old receptionist gets. There are lots of things I want to do and places I want to see that don't revolve around work, and precious little time to do them in.

Sorry, but I just needed to rant - and this thread seemed like a good spot... Also, I would like to apologize to Paul Petrunia and all the other masters of Archinect for not obeying the new Archinect Discussion Policy in placing this comment on this thread regarding "Disgusting salaries!!" [written post-rant]


To all the negative nancies all over Archinect, the Internet, and the planet:

God damnit, shut the fuck up. Enough is enough! I am so fucking sick of coming onto Archinect and listening to so many whiny ass bitches babbling on like a bunch of no-good, low-life, jerkoffs. Earth to the haters, Earth to the haters, the economy sucks, there aren't a lot of jobs right now, nor a lot of money. Also, since when do architects make a lot of money? The profession is either for you or it's not. Does the profession need some serious changes (i.e. AIA, NCARB, etc.) - of course it does (are you doing anything about it...probably not)!

If you're unemployed, underemployed, or don't think you're making enough money, fucking go do something about it - stop sitting at your god damn computer and arguing about everything and trying to make people feel soooooo bad about your miserable, umemployed, debt-infested life - primarily to people who do have jobs. You have a brain, you probably have legs, get up from your desk or couch and go do something about it. Learn some new software, read some books, start a blog, write a manifesto - something, anything, so that when the economy DOES recover (and yes, it may be a while), you can show your potential new employer that you did something rather than sit on your fucking ass and bitch like fucking 10 year olds. Christ. Do I want to become a licensed architect some day? Yes. Am I currently working in an architecture firm? No. Do I have a job? Yes - because I realized, oh, hey, very few if any firms in my area are hiring right now, and I really need to get a job to pay my bills. What am I doing? I'm working as a gardener for a landscape designer. Anyone can do this job, all it takes is not being a fucking idiot. Does it pay good money? No. Is it directly related to architecture? No (gardening, not designing of course). Can I get anything out of it? ABSOLUTELY! Because I'm not afraid to ask questions and I'm a hard worker; as I understand the important relationship between landscape design and architecture, and as I have my long-term goal of becoming a licensed architecture some day, I'm practically getting an Associates degree in landscape architecture, spending my 8 hours a day weeding, pruning, fertilizing, and planting in the dirt.

Also, quit comparing architects to lawyers and doctors for chrissakes! Has it ever occurred to you that not everyone NEEDS a fucking architect?! We're designers! Nobody ever truly NEEDS to have a custom home or fancy building designed or built for them. What you DO need, is someone who knows what the fuck they're doing when you need to get put under and sliced open because you're on the verge of dying. I'm pretty sure nobody's ever been having severe chest pains, and decided, 'oh, hey, I better get to an architect...quick - I'm fucking dying here! Only custom design can save me now! Fuck my doctor! Also, my will!? Who gives a shit about any of my belongings and all the legalities, my family can figure it out on their own! I think I can survive if I could just...find...an...architect.......'

Grow up - I don't understand how all the babbling emo nancies on here seemed to not have had any foresight into the profession before they went through 5+ years of school.

Be proactive, get up off your ass, get off of Archinect, and do something about your misery - you're not the only people on the fucking planet effected by the economy you selfish ignorant babies. The world doesn't revolve around you or architecture and it never will.

haha. I love it.

now THAT is a rant

aqua: you are absolutely correct in this observation. I also attended a state school and was able to emerge from college without debt. Looking back, I recognize now just how fortunate I was to start my career without monthly loan payments. While that is still possible today, it's very difficult to do and that added monthly expense clearly adds a serious burden to a young person's cost of living.

While I suppose this is an unpopular thing to say, firms tend to react quite negatively when presented with the argument that high student debt needs to generate higher compensation. Back in my intern days, one of my peers demanded to be paid a higher than average wage simply because he had three children and the rest of the firm's interns were unmarried or without children. He almost got fired over that -- guess it's pretty much the same situation with student loans.

If anything useful comes of this recession, I think (hope) it will be an awareness among students that student debt in our profession is a huge burden and something to be avoided to the maximum extent possible.

AtelierTabulaRasa has 116 comments on archinect.

good points tho.

: -- you're my hero. Great post.

Stone, you are absolutely right about loans. I failed to mention that my parents paid for my education, and I graduated without any loans in 1985. It totally changes the calculation of what is affordable on an architect's salary. In my opinion, for someone anticipating over $50K in student loans, a career with a starting salary in the $40K range is probably not viable unless you are able to live at home for free for the first four or five years of your career while you pay them off.

"live at home for free for the first four or five years of your career"

That's a huge problem for society over all and a big issue worldwide.

Atelier, I'm kind of with you on most of that rant except for where you go into the rant about the comparison of doctors, lawyers and architects. There always seems to be two extremes when people make these comparisons with doctors. Either we have those say why can't an unlicensed recent arch school graduate make as much as experienced doctors; or the other extreme where we're saying architects can't compare in expertise and contribution to society to say... a neuro-surgeon or open heart surgeon.

Neuro-surgeon and specialists that do open heart surgery aren't exactly dime a dozen. And at the same time, lets not reduce all architects' responsibilities as providing "custom design" and "fancy buildings". Architecture isn't just bricks and mortar, and you don't have to have some guy's beating heart in your hands to be contributing to people's lives. There are a lot of those doing good work, contributing to society, and making a living out of it.

Have you read anything on the plight of the Primary care physician? The more you know about those that make a higher salary, the more complicated the story gets. As for lawyers... why would you want to compare to them in the first place? Yikes.

OK, thats a joke on lawyers... but still...

I dont think having student loans means you need to live at home for 4 or 5 years. I did my undergrad, lived at home for a year because i already had a job from interning during breaks and knew i was applying to grad school for the next year. Then, after grad school, i got a job and was living on my own.

I think that recent grads need to learn to manage their money more than they need to live at home for 5 years. If you have student loans, that is just a part of your budget.


Part of being an adult and a college graduate is being able to manage your money, which may mean living a little lean for a year or 4 right after you graduate. Running to live at home for half a decade will most likely do nothing but cause more problems

Bravo, AtelierTabulaRasa. That was a fun read!

Man I think I am going to copy and paste just about every entry listed above for future bathroom reading material.

Holy crapola batman.

i think i wet myself reading through ATR's post.... that was fantastic....

Not that I necessarily agree with your logic (or lack thereof) AtelierTabulaRasa:

but that was one helluv an awesome rant!!!

Impassioned. Real. Intense. Excellent.