I sat next to a businessman on an airplane once and he asked me what I did. When I said an Architect he lite up and said "It's so nice to meet someone who actually creates something!" I could not agree more. Architecture is about the joy of creating something from your imagination. It is not a solitary pursuit like an Artist or a Novelist. It is a complex process that involves many people...an Owner, User groups, other Disciplines and Contractors. The Architect is at the center of all this...it can be a wonderful and exciting profession and it can be a damn hard slog sometimes. If you love it...it is worth it to persevere against all the difficulties. If you are ambivalent...find something else in life.
If you want to change things in the profession..start your own firm. I wanted a firm where we had a life and interests outside of work, that was family friendly and where we created our own projects. I found two partners that had the same values that I had. We don't work a ton of overtime. We have flexible hours and the ability for parents to work from home when their children are sick. My children spend time in the office when they have holidays off that i don't. They spend time coloring and making things. We allow well behaved dogs in the office. My partner took real estate development courses and we purchased some land and developed our own retail project. A major REIT purchased it and it is almost fully leased. We are working on developing a boutique hotel now...
You have the ability to create the life that you want.
Honestly, is it THAT easy to get a job in any another industry? Probably architecture is specially affected by the crisis, but there is people being laid off in almost any profession. How the hell do you get a job in another industry with no experience in that profession?
From the very first moment in architecture office (2007), I realised this was not my dream job. I was made redundant with 1.5-year experience in 2009 and luckily I got another job where I do a pretty confortable pay considering the economic situation and my short experience ($65k net in a very cheap country).
However I try to change careers. I apply for jobs or send compulsory candidatures to Project Management and RE Developers and I got no reply / got rejected because "There are no vacancies", "You don't have experience in the field" or "We got someone with 10-years experience in the field who is willing to work for half the price".
By reading some posts, it seems that architecture is the only industry affected by the meltdown. The actual fact is that is really hard to get any job in any industry right now.
yes that is very true, Hawkin, and one a lot of architects either ignore or just dont bother acknowledging
times are tough EVERYWHERE now, and architects have it no different. so those that whine about low salaries now need to get over it a little bit and realize that is happening everywhere. Architects arent being unjustly hit harder than anyone else with the bad economy, no matter how much we like to think we are
though the "Stop bitching and do something about it" point is very valid to those in our profession (in many aspects, not only compensation), so is the point that we shouldn't settle for the current state of the profession, because "it is just the way things are, and it could be worse" - the "take it or leave it" mentality should be changed to "take it and better it" -
i changed the way i looked at and worked in the profession so i'd get paid more, and I am happy with my wages today, all things considered - i also intentionally live in a town where my compensation allows me to live the way i want to live -
having said all that, as a whole, we should be getting paid more, but it's our own fault we don't.
you have to diversify your talents if you want to be able to jump fields....
there's always this arguement/discussion, but all in all, if you want to get into other fields/careers, then make it happen.... what i have found over the years is that folks don't have the balls or motivation to make jumps..... just saying....
I'm doing a tedious task at work... So I'm going to break down "our own" in the phrase "having said all that, as a whole, we should be getting paid more, but it's OUR OWN fault we don't" - although the base assumption is that Simples meant as individuals:
Our own, as citizens in a capitalist society (not citizens as a legal status necessarily)
Our own, as college graduates
Our own, as professionals
Our own, as construction industry professionals
Our own, as Architectural professionals
Our own, as Employees or Employers
Our own, as individuals
While it is true, the architectural field isn't unjustly being targeted (as that also implies some sort of just reward/punishment from some externally personified entity, and $ being the sole representation of that reward/punishment) the architectural profession has been unproportionately affected out of many professions. Through a combination of multiple and complex causations at different levels, some systematic/inherent to the profession/education, some controllable factors, many of us are in financially unsustainable lifestyles.
So "our own fault"? I'm not trying to divert blame, as that is something I hate and frankly I have no reason to, but I think it is so much more complicated than that. That would explain the numerous strings of conversations and frustration with the situation.
"times are tough EVERYWHERE now, and architects have it no different. so those that whine about low salaries now need to get over it a little bit and realize that is happening everywhere. Architects arent being unjustly hit harder than anyone else with the bad economy, no matter how much we like to think we are"
What a load. Here is some truth for you. It is damm difficult to make it work in extremely good times. It is impossible at the moment within the architecture field to make it all work out. That means hours worked, pay, benifits, etc so on and so forth. We as a profession have been bitching and groaning about low pay for decades, not just since the decline 2 years ago. It was getting harder and harder to make it all work out for an architect leading up to 2007. Now it is impossible for most expecially if you have $75000 or more in loans. Yes I know you had free college or close to it. A lot of people don't have that.
wow OTF
Thanks for making a million of assumptions about me
Here is some truth for you, rather than ignorantly assuming things about me
For your information, I have 60k in loans from undergrad and grad school. I have been working since i graduated, and, amazingly enough, have been able to afford my rent and mortgage since graduating, as well as paying my student loans.
If you bothered to read my post, it was directly referring to architects whining about how in this economy they have it bad or worse than others and how that is not fair.
Thank you for your brilliant insight in letting me know that architects have been complaining about their salaries for a long time. No worries, I have heard yours and others rants for a long time. Get over it
Get over yourself whining how things are so impossible for architects. You sound ridiculous. Grow up, take responsibility for yourself, and if you take on student loans, be prepared to pay them off.
And before you make blind assumptions about people, find out the actual situation, that way you dont sound like a complete @$$
I can still think a rant is awesome even if I don't agree with the point or premise.
Why are so many against the premise behind freedom of speech, i.e. the concept of "agreeing to disagree" and "arguments and propositions based on facts not emotional conjecture."?
Oh yeah, Orwell already explained this one when he said, because "some are [inevitably] "more equal" than others..." -Animal Farm.
The self proclaimed "tolerant" among us become surprisingly intolerant surprisingly fast when they disagree.
No one finds it shocking or reprehensible that one forum member even suggested that I go and "kil myself?" Almost like a death threat. Not to worry, I am sure its only a matter of time before Winston suffers the same fate as Piggy and One Fella. I really liked those members before they were killed off, too.
Oh well, just more hypocrisy that is par for the course...what else might I expect...generally I figured out a long time ago to not expect the unexpceted when dealing with the masses of perfectly average people these days.
I can still think a rant is awesome even if I don't agree with the point or premise.
Why are so many against the premise behind freedom of speech, i.e. the concept of "agreeing to disagree" and "arguments and propositions based on facts not emotional conjecture."?
Oh yeah, Orwell already explained this one when he said, because "some are [inevitably] "more equal" than others..." -Animal Farm.
The self proclaimed "tolerant" among us become surprisingly intolerant surprisingly fast when they disagree.
No one finds it shocking or reprehensible that one forum member even suggested that I go and "kil myself?" Almost like a death threat. Not to worry, I am sure its only a matter of time before Winston suffers the same fate as Piggy and One Fella. I really liked those members before they were killed off, too.
Oh well, just more hypocrisy that is par for the course...what else might I expect...generally I figured out a long time ago to not expect the unexpceted when dealing with the masses of perfectly average people these days.
marmkid, reasonable poeple necessarily make reasonable assumptions. Idiots make none at all. Dodo birds are a great example of beings that refrain from generalizing, assumption making. Get over it if you want to grow up.
So the notion is that you have to get into architecture for the love, but not for the money. True, but people seem to forget that you need money to be able to create architecture. I'm sure people working for Apple work there because they believe in the product. But Apple wouldn't be able to create an Iphone if they hadn't had enough money. Money enables you to do research, to come up with new concepts and ultimately to create better architecture.
Lawyers charge you money to maintain a certain lifestyle. They charge you every email they sent you or every phone call they make. My firm doesn't even have enough money to upgrade 5 year old computers. We use cardboards as sun shades.
You need money to create architecture, the same way doctors need money to run an operating room.
Winiston
I'd love to hear OTF's actual reason for assuming I got all my college paid for
From his post, it seems that because I dont feel that a college grad is completely crippled for life because of student loans means I have no actual knowledge on how it is to live and work with student loan debt.
Which is completely wrong, as i have stated, I have 60K in student loan debt, and have not been in such an impossible state that i cannot live
I have also not spent my time blaming everyone else for any sort of problem in my life
Perhaps that is the key. Take responsibility for yourself and your own situation and perhaps everything wont be so "impossible"
Perhaps if you didnt sit around all day and make assumptions about everyone else, and blame everyone else for all your problems, you might be in a much better situation than you seem to be in
But then again, if you just want to sit around and complain about everything wrong with you, but not actually change anything, then i guess you are right on track
Good luck with that, it seems to be working out great for you so far
Your point correlates to the various people who have said "get out and just do it."
They're both short-sighted claims entrenched in a kind of lazy declarative approach as if the concept of "just doing it" was completely groundbreaking and novel.
"Doing it" depends on a lot of factors, most of which are outside of the control of an individual person. In that The Atlantic article "How a New Jobless Era Will Transform America," continues this idea that somehow people who are just engaging the "adult world" are at fault.
All of this boils down to one basic assumption-- That the Baby Boomers and Generation X thinks Generation Y is essentially worthless because Generation Y doesn't seem to be motivated in the same way or is willing to accept responsibility.
Well, that kind of goes both ways. It is up to Generation X and the Baby Boomers to enable Generation Y to do something. I think it is even more disgusting for The Atlantic to run an article like this without asking a single person from Generation Y what their ideas, opinions or feelings are.
Let's make fun of an entire generation without letting them defend themselves! There's frequent mention of Generation Y not being responsible, independent, reliant, able to have humility and so forth.
The reason I'm bring this up is that I would say it is more than likely the exact opposite. I think Generation Y craves independence and responsibility.
It's hard to be independent though when you've come to adulthood during the boom years and your minimum wage job doesn't even pay your rent.
Entrepreneurial drive? Have any of these author's even tried to fill out a credit application? It was easier in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s to qualify for credit to start a business. Now if you want to start a business, you need to draft up a 100-page business plan, decorate it with fancy graphics and shop it around to venture capital firms who will only partially fund your project and charge you 12% interest on the loan.
There's more complexity and regulations these days that makes starting up a business or a firm even more challanging. When a lot of these "Masters of Industry" started up their businesses in the 1960s and 1970s, expectations were far lower. Real low. It's easier to be successful when the word "everything" was synonymous with the word "shit."
And lastly, that brings me to my last point... location, location, location! I'm sure you can figure out where I am going with this. Younger people have different priorities and different cultural values. Different places often do not match those. That clashing leads to disenfranchisement. Sorry, America... you're a huge pile of shit that no one wants to confront head on or even pay attention to in any capacity.
That's another issue... do I want to invest my life in my hometown? Are you serious? Bwahahahahahaha. Only if you inject the finest morphine straight into my hippocampus.
Rents are artificially high. Credit is a bitch to get. A lot of places suck. Generational lifestyles and even lifestyles between cultural groups is so volatile that it isn't even worth trying to forge some sort of 'understanding.'
If young people aren't being proactive enough... they're either lazy or have great risk analysis skills.
Older generations have made everything so problematic, difficult, expensive and tiring to really make a pursuit worthwhile. You can mandate all you want... but mandates are hard to live up to without facilitation.
If you have a problem with this post... please send your compliant attached to Form 45382-A with a voided check. Your complaint will be processed in the order it is received at available hours convenient to us.
Before your complaint can be processed... you will need to have proof of E&O insurance, Term Life Insurance, 2 Vehicle Registrations, a Passport Photo, your Social Security Number and 3 Forms of ID.
One your complaint has been pre-processed, your complaint will be reviewed up you successfully passing a credit check, a drug test, an alcohol test, an STD test and personality test.
Failure to pass any of these tests will result in automatic revocation of your complaints. Your record will be put permanently on file as a delinquent complainer. Civil and or criminal charges may be pressed against you in the event that your fail our pre-screening screening.
After your complaint is finally processed, you will be required to pass a physical exam including being able to lift 95 lbs and run a mile under 6 minutes. In addition, your skin and hair will be further tested for a variety of drugs including tobacco and birth control.
Please be advised that if you have a pre-existing medical condition, have had an abortion or are gay... your complaint will be ignored until it suits us to evaluate it to a full extent.
Lastly... you will be informed in 18 months after your complaint has been filed of a decision on our behalf. In the mean time, we will charge your account 8.95 plus 15% compound interest on whatever value we decide is necessary to process your complaint.
why are you assuming that I don't have major plans and operations in the works in order to "fix" my situation? Or that it necessarily doesn't involve whining on this website? Or that my current situation isn't quite pleasant in the first place?
I have no extraneous debt such as credit cards or the like and money and other essential life supporting "items" saved up anticipating a layoff that might last as long or longer as the great depression. I am more than willing to let things collapse entirely, esp. the profession, because it means it can rebuilt properly on new, equitable, and just foundations.
That is not to say I'd like to discourage you from making assumptions in the first place; please do. Making bad assumptions is better than making none at all, but making good assumptions is best.
"why are you assuming that I don't have major plans and operations in the works in order to "fix" my situation?"
mainly just because you completely ignore the question whenever I or anyone else asks it to you
and then you continue to rant against the AIA endlessly
I am not assuming you are doing nothing. I continue to ask what you are doing beyond what we have seen, which has been to rant against the AIA and put the blame on others.
Is your plan to let things collapse entirely and wait for it to be rebuilt?
You seem very sure that your view and plan are correct, so i am just curious as to what it is.
"Making bad assumptions is better than making none at all, but making good assumptions is best."
Assumptions should be based on something though. OTF assumed I had my college paid for me because I am not ranting and whining and complaining about paying back student loans.
ah, so you have the "secret" plan that you wont share with anyone because it is that brilliant? Is it because we are all AIA followers and are unworthy of this plan?
It sounds to me like you are sitting around waiting for someone to fix the profession, then you will be more than willing to come back and take the benefits again. And that assumption is based on your not answering simple questions yet continuing to rant and blame others for the problems
And the fact that you talk about leaving the profession, yet post here daily
So please, enlighten me if my assumptions are wrong, because i really am curious as to how people plan to both make it through the tough economic times and perhaps fix some of the fundamental problems with our profession.
huh? Okay. If that is true (and no I'm not going to waste my time ferreting it out), then: The Point goes to marmkid. Great work identifying ignorant and supersitious thinking so that it can be methodically extracted from the thread.
marm, you probably can't fix the profession at large without getting involved in a large organization to which a lot of the profession belongs....
in a smaller way, you just build your own firm according to your best judgment. requires staying in the profession and dealing with what comes, simultaneously going after the good clients that can help you position yourself to make better work.
all the stuff that those complaining here are citing as problems are things that can only be corrected by those who get into the position to correct them and do it.
... or you can pledge to leave the profession, remain cranky and vindictive, and evangelize against architecture anonymously on a discussion board.
sorry if I mistook you for another. I was certain I had this conversation with you before. But being the internet, I can not place a face to the name. Aparently you are just one of those people happy to be strapped with an almost redictardufukinlous amount of student debt compared to salary. To each his own. If you can make that work out I imagine, and this is another assumption, that your spouse works a full time gig as well.
And I'm not whinning. I am trying to educate those entering this field. I could certainly have stayed in it if I wanted to but chose to move upwards instead. My student loan was only about $15,000 so you can imagine how long it took for me to get back positive
I have no intention of fixing the profession. Can't be done. Instead I am trying to educate those trying to enter the profession as to the reality of it. That ain't whinning either. I love architecture. Just decided to move up and hope to help others prior to it becomming an issue.
Steven said, "you probably can't fix the profession at large without getting involved in a large organization to which a lot of the profession belongs...problems are things that can only be corrected by those who get into the position to correct them and do it."
Seems like you are contradicting yourself. So let's see, according to your logic, correcting things all depends on the individual doing it (whatever that is) even though that individual should start off trying to change things by joining the very same large organization that led him or her into the corner in the first place?...hmmmm sounds more like some vague corporate marketing slogan for Nike than a tactical assault on the problems.
Thats it! I got it! The AIA's new marketing slogan:
"The AIA...Just Do It >insert swish sound now<"
or if that is somne kind of violation of law or ethics (not that the AIA has any reservations about that):
"The AIA...Just git 'er done"
passerby1ce,
I really appreciate SeaArch's valuable comments. I'll just pretend she is not wasting her time making money when she could be making a much better investment of her time having and raising healthy, happy children (and if don't have now...have now or adopt). The world needs better mothers and architects but a dedicated mother is much, much more essential to a prosperous civilization. IN fact civilization will get along quite nicely without architects but won't survive more than 20 years without dedicated mothers...which is what we are dealing with now, of course.
I'm curious to hear some budget elaboration, specifically for New York. I've resisted looking for jobs there because of the extremely high cost of living and expected that offices were probably only paying in the low 40's at best. Just wondering how people make that work with $1500+ rent and student loan payments while still being able to afford food (and no ramen noodles is not food)
There seems to be quite a few delusions as to how much lawyers and doctors make starting out. I have quite a few friends starting out in the law profession that are only hovering around $40,000, and some who are making substantially less. Sure there are the few working for big firms that are pulling down some change, or doctors who choose to work in rural areas that are making far more than their urban peers, but it usually isn't until many years have passed that any of the professions start to pull down some serious salaries.
.._. .._ _._. _._ : My solution to that would not to pay $1500/month rent! I know it's NYC, but that's what roommates are for. So, here's my go at a budget assuming a $40,000/year paycheck, so 3,333.33/month, assuming the a quarter of that goes to taxes, $2,500/month.
Rent on apartment with roommate in Brooklyn: $800 (see craigslist for proof that it exists)
Loan Payments: $650 (this is what I pay per month, so your mileage may vary)
Bills: $100
Metro Card: $89
Savings: $100
______________________
This leaves $761 left, or about $190 a week for food, clothes, entertainment, and whatnot. Yeah, you're probably bringing your lunch to work every day, but that's what young professionals DO. We live small for a few years until we get more experience and better pay.
My cousin lived and worked in Manhattan, but had 3 roommates.
Most people I know who work in the city, commute from Jersey. Those I know who live in the city, live in the neighboring boroughs. Brooklyn still has some pretty inexpensive apartments. Don't be scared to move to the BX, Queens, or Harlem. Jersey City and Hoboken in NJ are popular spots for young professionals. I also have a few friends living in Newark.
Don't rule out living in NJ OR THE OTHER BOROUGHS.
For some reason, no matter where you're coming from, it feels like it takes 30 minute to an hour to get to Manhattan.
Yeah, don't feel like you need to live anywhere near where you work. In fact you should look at some apartments in Philly if you work in Manhatten. I'm just saying don't rule it out.
Oh boy.
My dad, prior to my arrival, back in the early 60's took a job in Manhatten. He told me that for about 4 years he spent 2-3 hours travel inot Mnahatten and the same back to where he did live. 4 years and he up and packed the family and moved to Chicago.
Thank God.
If you can't afford to live within 1 hour of where you work, phuck it.
Plus, I don't think I would survive more than 24 hours, I am too white and too nerdy.
Everytime I visit Manhattan I feel like I can't breathe or think or feel. Its like a bunch of rats in a maze clawing and scratching eachother to get any little remnant of cheese that is perchance not gobbled up faster than the bigger rat in your way. gross!
Absolutely. This is actually the root of all our problems, the love of money and the contemporary phenomenon of hating the family.
How about we blame the world's ils on the following:
How about AWOL mothers and fathers who enjoy the act of spreading their seed around and then dump their kids in daycare, I mean public schools, I mean daycare and never even let the meaning of the word "responsiblity" cross their mind before having sexual intercourse?
Or how about mothers to be that abort the next generation in the first place?
Or how about mothers that don't even invest in the future by having and raising children yet derive the benefits of a civilized workforce during the entirety of their lifetimes (with malice/ design aforethought)?
But don't assume I mean something I didn't say by projecting your experience or values onto mine:
Even a relatively bad mother or bad father that is still a mother or a father to their children is far and away 1,000x better than any of the preceeding examples of "parenthood".
Disgusting salaries!!
And how does ATR's post lack logic? It's proabably one of the most logical posts on this thread.
that's what i think of when i read ATR's post. ATR is right.
I sat next to a businessman on an airplane once and he asked me what I did. When I said an Architect he lite up and said "It's so nice to meet someone who actually creates something!" I could not agree more. Architecture is about the joy of creating something from your imagination. It is not a solitary pursuit like an Artist or a Novelist. It is a complex process that involves many people...an Owner, User groups, other Disciplines and Contractors. The Architect is at the center of all this...it can be a wonderful and exciting profession and it can be a damn hard slog sometimes. If you love it...it is worth it to persevere against all the difficulties. If you are ambivalent...find something else in life.
If you want to change things in the profession..start your own firm. I wanted a firm where we had a life and interests outside of work, that was family friendly and where we created our own projects. I found two partners that had the same values that I had. We don't work a ton of overtime. We have flexible hours and the ability for parents to work from home when their children are sick. My children spend time in the office when they have holidays off that i don't. They spend time coloring and making things. We allow well behaved dogs in the office. My partner took real estate development courses and we purchased some land and developed our own retail project. A major REIT purchased it and it is almost fully leased. We are working on developing a boutique hotel now...
You have the ability to create the life that you want.
ATR is my hero of the week! Spoken like a real human being!
your hero of the week, in your opinion, lacks logic?
slow week, winston?
Winston, stop fronting. You know most of ATR's comment was pointed at you.
Honestly, is it THAT easy to get a job in any another industry? Probably architecture is specially affected by the crisis, but there is people being laid off in almost any profession. How the hell do you get a job in another industry with no experience in that profession?
From the very first moment in architecture office (2007), I realised this was not my dream job. I was made redundant with 1.5-year experience in 2009 and luckily I got another job where I do a pretty confortable pay considering the economic situation and my short experience ($65k net in a very cheap country).
However I try to change careers. I apply for jobs or send compulsory candidatures to Project Management and RE Developers and I got no reply / got rejected because "There are no vacancies", "You don't have experience in the field" or "We got someone with 10-years experience in the field who is willing to work for half the price".
By reading some posts, it seems that architecture is the only industry affected by the meltdown. The actual fact is that is really hard to get any job in any industry right now.
yes that is very true, Hawkin, and one a lot of architects either ignore or just dont bother acknowledging
times are tough EVERYWHERE now, and architects have it no different. so those that whine about low salaries now need to get over it a little bit and realize that is happening everywhere. Architects arent being unjustly hit harder than anyone else with the bad economy, no matter how much we like to think we are
though the "Stop bitching and do something about it" point is very valid to those in our profession (in many aspects, not only compensation), so is the point that we shouldn't settle for the current state of the profession, because "it is just the way things are, and it could be worse" - the "take it or leave it" mentality should be changed to "take it and better it" -
i changed the way i looked at and worked in the profession so i'd get paid more, and I am happy with my wages today, all things considered - i also intentionally live in a town where my compensation allows me to live the way i want to live -
having said all that, as a whole, we should be getting paid more, but it's our own fault we don't.
you have to diversify your talents if you want to be able to jump fields....
there's always this arguement/discussion, but all in all, if you want to get into other fields/careers, then make it happen.... what i have found over the years is that folks don't have the balls or motivation to make jumps..... just saying....
I'm doing a tedious task at work... So I'm going to break down "our own" in the phrase "having said all that, as a whole, we should be getting paid more, but it's OUR OWN fault we don't" - although the base assumption is that Simples meant as individuals:
Our own, as citizens in a capitalist society (not citizens as a legal status necessarily)
Our own, as college graduates
Our own, as professionals
Our own, as construction industry professionals
Our own, as Architectural professionals
Our own, as Employees or Employers
Our own, as individuals
While it is true, the architectural field isn't unjustly being targeted (as that also implies some sort of just reward/punishment from some externally personified entity, and $ being the sole representation of that reward/punishment) the architectural profession has been unproportionately affected out of many professions. Through a combination of multiple and complex causations at different levels, some systematic/inherent to the profession/education, some controllable factors, many of us are in financially unsustainable lifestyles.
So "our own fault"? I'm not trying to divert blame, as that is something I hate and frankly I have no reason to, but I think it is so much more complicated than that. That would explain the numerous strings of conversations and frustration with the situation.
ask yourself this: are you really in it for the money? if you are complaining about the money, then maybe you are in the wrong field.
suck it up!
money is time. If you don't have it then you don't have time and you are not your own. No time to make discretionary choices = slavery.
You can keep your slavery, I'll take the money and freedom that it buys.
true winston
but never forget
mo money
mo problems
winston -- how about taking your money and freedom and "take it somewhere else" -- you're becoming damn tedious here
marmkid,
"times are tough EVERYWHERE now, and architects have it no different. so those that whine about low salaries now need to get over it a little bit and realize that is happening everywhere. Architects arent being unjustly hit harder than anyone else with the bad economy, no matter how much we like to think we are"
What a load. Here is some truth for you. It is damm difficult to make it work in extremely good times. It is impossible at the moment within the architecture field to make it all work out. That means hours worked, pay, benifits, etc so on and so forth. We as a profession have been bitching and groaning about low pay for decades, not just since the decline 2 years ago. It was getting harder and harder to make it all work out for an architect leading up to 2007. Now it is impossible for most expecially if you have $75000 or more in loans. Yes I know you had free college or close to it. A lot of people don't have that.
wow OTF
Thanks for making a million of assumptions about me
Here is some truth for you, rather than ignorantly assuming things about me
For your information, I have 60k in loans from undergrad and grad school. I have been working since i graduated, and, amazingly enough, have been able to afford my rent and mortgage since graduating, as well as paying my student loans.
If you bothered to read my post, it was directly referring to architects whining about how in this economy they have it bad or worse than others and how that is not fair.
Thank you for your brilliant insight in letting me know that architects have been complaining about their salaries for a long time. No worries, I have heard yours and others rants for a long time. Get over it
Get over yourself whining how things are so impossible for architects. You sound ridiculous. Grow up, take responsibility for yourself, and if you take on student loans, be prepared to pay them off.
And before you make blind assumptions about people, find out the actual situation, that way you dont sound like a complete @$$
I can still think a rant is awesome even if I don't agree with the point or premise.
Why are so many against the premise behind freedom of speech, i.e. the concept of "agreeing to disagree" and "arguments and propositions based on facts not emotional conjecture."?
Oh yeah, Orwell already explained this one when he said, because "some are [inevitably] "more equal" than others..." -Animal Farm.
The self proclaimed "tolerant" among us become surprisingly intolerant surprisingly fast when they disagree.
No one finds it shocking or reprehensible that one forum member even suggested that I go and "kil myself?" Almost like a death threat. Not to worry, I am sure its only a matter of time before Winston suffers the same fate as Piggy and One Fella. I really liked those members before they were killed off, too.
Oh well, just more hypocrisy that is par for the course...what else might I expect...generally I figured out a long time ago to not expect the unexpceted when dealing with the masses of perfectly average people these days.
*YYAAWWNN*
I can still think a rant is awesome even if I don't agree with the point or premise.
Why are so many against the premise behind freedom of speech, i.e. the concept of "agreeing to disagree" and "arguments and propositions based on facts not emotional conjecture."?
Oh yeah, Orwell already explained this one when he said, because "some are [inevitably] "more equal" than others..." -Animal Farm.
The self proclaimed "tolerant" among us become surprisingly intolerant surprisingly fast when they disagree.
No one finds it shocking or reprehensible that one forum member even suggested that I go and "kil myself?" Almost like a death threat. Not to worry, I am sure its only a matter of time before Winston suffers the same fate as Piggy and One Fella. I really liked those members before they were killed off, too.
Oh well, just more hypocrisy that is par for the course...what else might I expect...generally I figured out a long time ago to not expect the unexpceted when dealing with the masses of perfectly average people these days.
*YYAAWWNN*
double post, sorry.
marmkid, reasonable poeple necessarily make reasonable assumptions. Idiots make none at all. Dodo birds are a great example of beings that refrain from generalizing, assumption making. Get over it if you want to grow up.
So the notion is that you have to get into architecture for the love, but not for the money. True, but people seem to forget that you need money to be able to create architecture. I'm sure people working for Apple work there because they believe in the product. But Apple wouldn't be able to create an Iphone if they hadn't had enough money. Money enables you to do research, to come up with new concepts and ultimately to create better architecture.
Lawyers charge you money to maintain a certain lifestyle. They charge you every email they sent you or every phone call they make. My firm doesn't even have enough money to upgrade 5 year old computers. We use cardboards as sun shades.
You need money to create architecture, the same way doctors need money to run an operating room.
Winiston
I'd love to hear OTF's actual reason for assuming I got all my college paid for
From his post, it seems that because I dont feel that a college grad is completely crippled for life because of student loans means I have no actual knowledge on how it is to live and work with student loan debt.
Which is completely wrong, as i have stated, I have 60K in student loan debt, and have not been in such an impossible state that i cannot live
I have also not spent my time blaming everyone else for any sort of problem in my life
Perhaps that is the key. Take responsibility for yourself and your own situation and perhaps everything wont be so "impossible"
And Winston
Perhaps if you didnt sit around all day and make assumptions about everyone else, and blame everyone else for all your problems, you might be in a much better situation than you seem to be in
But then again, if you just want to sit around and complain about everything wrong with you, but not actually change anything, then i guess you are right on track
Good luck with that, it seems to be working out great for you so far
No, slart... I completely agree.
Your point correlates to the various people who have said "get out and just do it."
They're both short-sighted claims entrenched in a kind of lazy declarative approach as if the concept of "just doing it" was completely groundbreaking and novel.
"Doing it" depends on a lot of factors, most of which are outside of the control of an individual person. In that The Atlantic article "How a New Jobless Era Will Transform America," continues this idea that somehow people who are just engaging the "adult world" are at fault.
Particularly Ron Alaop's little tirade "Followers, Not Leaders" is especially disgusting.
All of this boils down to one basic assumption-- That the Baby Boomers and Generation X thinks Generation Y is essentially worthless because Generation Y doesn't seem to be motivated in the same way or is willing to accept responsibility.
Well, that kind of goes both ways. It is up to Generation X and the Baby Boomers to enable Generation Y to do something. I think it is even more disgusting for The Atlantic to run an article like this without asking a single person from Generation Y what their ideas, opinions or feelings are.
Let's make fun of an entire generation without letting them defend themselves! There's frequent mention of Generation Y not being responsible, independent, reliant, able to have humility and so forth.
The reason I'm bring this up is that I would say it is more than likely the exact opposite. I think Generation Y craves independence and responsibility.
It's hard to be independent though when you've come to adulthood during the boom years and your minimum wage job doesn't even pay your rent.
Entrepreneurial drive? Have any of these author's even tried to fill out a credit application? It was easier in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s to qualify for credit to start a business. Now if you want to start a business, you need to draft up a 100-page business plan, decorate it with fancy graphics and shop it around to venture capital firms who will only partially fund your project and charge you 12% interest on the loan.
There's more complexity and regulations these days that makes starting up a business or a firm even more challanging. When a lot of these "Masters of Industry" started up their businesses in the 1960s and 1970s, expectations were far lower. Real low. It's easier to be successful when the word "everything" was synonymous with the word "shit."
And lastly, that brings me to my last point... location, location, location! I'm sure you can figure out where I am going with this. Younger people have different priorities and different cultural values. Different places often do not match those. That clashing leads to disenfranchisement. Sorry, America... you're a huge pile of shit that no one wants to confront head on or even pay attention to in any capacity.
That's another issue... do I want to invest my life in my hometown? Are you serious? Bwahahahahahaha. Only if you inject the finest morphine straight into my hippocampus.
Rents are artificially high. Credit is a bitch to get. A lot of places suck. Generational lifestyles and even lifestyles between cultural groups is so volatile that it isn't even worth trying to forge some sort of 'understanding.'
If young people aren't being proactive enough... they're either lazy or have great risk analysis skills.
Older generations have made everything so problematic, difficult, expensive and tiring to really make a pursuit worthwhile. You can mandate all you want... but mandates are hard to live up to without facilitation.
If you have a problem with this post... please send your compliant attached to Form 45382-A with a voided check. Your complaint will be processed in the order it is received at available hours convenient to us.
Before your complaint can be processed... you will need to have proof of E&O insurance, Term Life Insurance, 2 Vehicle Registrations, a Passport Photo, your Social Security Number and 3 Forms of ID.
One your complaint has been pre-processed, your complaint will be reviewed up you successfully passing a credit check, a drug test, an alcohol test, an STD test and personality test.
Failure to pass any of these tests will result in automatic revocation of your complaints. Your record will be put permanently on file as a delinquent complainer. Civil and or criminal charges may be pressed against you in the event that your fail our pre-screening screening.
After your complaint is finally processed, you will be required to pass a physical exam including being able to lift 95 lbs and run a mile under 6 minutes. In addition, your skin and hair will be further tested for a variety of drugs including tobacco and birth control.
Please be advised that if you have a pre-existing medical condition, have had an abortion or are gay... your complaint will be ignored until it suits us to evaluate it to a full extent.
Lastly... you will be informed in 18 months after your complaint has been filed of a decision on our behalf. In the mean time, we will charge your account 8.95 plus 15% compound interest on whatever value we decide is necessary to process your complaint.
Thanks you for your patience and have a nice day.
atr is archinect's version of jim rome. OUT! ;)
marmkid...oh the irony!
why are you assuming that I don't have major plans and operations in the works in order to "fix" my situation? Or that it necessarily doesn't involve whining on this website? Or that my current situation isn't quite pleasant in the first place?
I have no extraneous debt such as credit cards or the like and money and other essential life supporting "items" saved up anticipating a layoff that might last as long or longer as the great depression. I am more than willing to let things collapse entirely, esp. the profession, because it means it can rebuilt properly on new, equitable, and just foundations.
That is not to say I'd like to discourage you from making assumptions in the first place; please do. Making bad assumptions is better than making none at all, but making good assumptions is best.
"why are you assuming that I don't have major plans and operations in the works in order to "fix" my situation?"
mainly just because you completely ignore the question whenever I or anyone else asks it to you
and then you continue to rant against the AIA endlessly
I am not assuming you are doing nothing. I continue to ask what you are doing beyond what we have seen, which has been to rant against the AIA and put the blame on others.
Is your plan to let things collapse entirely and wait for it to be rebuilt?
You seem very sure that your view and plan are correct, so i am just curious as to what it is.
I would be curious, too.
"Making bad assumptions is better than making none at all, but making good assumptions is best."
Assumptions should be based on something though. OTF assumed I had my college paid for me because I am not ranting and whining and complaining about paying back student loans.
ah, so you have the "secret" plan that you wont share with anyone because it is that brilliant? Is it because we are all AIA followers and are unworthy of this plan?
It sounds to me like you are sitting around waiting for someone to fix the profession, then you will be more than willing to come back and take the benefits again. And that assumption is based on your not answering simple questions yet continuing to rant and blame others for the problems
And the fact that you talk about leaving the profession, yet post here daily
So please, enlighten me if my assumptions are wrong, because i really am curious as to how people plan to both make it through the tough economic times and perhaps fix some of the fundamental problems with our profession.
huh? Okay. If that is true (and no I'm not going to waste my time ferreting it out), then: The Point goes to marmkid. Great work identifying ignorant and supersitious thinking so that it can be methodically extracted from the thread.
marm, you probably can't fix the profession at large without getting involved in a large organization to which a lot of the profession belongs....
in a smaller way, you just build your own firm according to your best judgment. requires staying in the profession and dealing with what comes, simultaneously going after the good clients that can help you position yourself to make better work.
all the stuff that those complaining here are citing as problems are things that can only be corrected by those who get into the position to correct them and do it.
... or you can pledge to leave the profession, remain cranky and vindictive, and evangelize against architecture anonymously on a discussion board.
I love you SeaArch. Very refreshing posts. Same with archie too. Both talking specifics and from experience. Quite refreshing indeed.
psst.....hey Winston they're both women too, with families and everything.. :-o
marmkid,
sorry if I mistook you for another. I was certain I had this conversation with you before. But being the internet, I can not place a face to the name. Aparently you are just one of those people happy to be strapped with an almost redictardufukinlous amount of student debt compared to salary. To each his own. If you can make that work out I imagine, and this is another assumption, that your spouse works a full time gig as well.
And I'm not whinning. I am trying to educate those entering this field. I could certainly have stayed in it if I wanted to but chose to move upwards instead. My student loan was only about $15,000 so you can imagine how long it took for me to get back positive
I have no intention of fixing the profession. Can't be done. Instead I am trying to educate those trying to enter the profession as to the reality of it. That ain't whinning either. I love architecture. Just decided to move up and hope to help others prior to it becomming an issue.
Steven said, "you probably can't fix the profession at large without getting involved in a large organization to which a lot of the profession belongs...problems are things that can only be corrected by those who get into the position to correct them and do it."
Seems like you are contradicting yourself. So let's see, according to your logic, correcting things all depends on the individual doing it (whatever that is) even though that individual should start off trying to change things by joining the very same large organization that led him or her into the corner in the first place?...hmmmm sounds more like some vague corporate marketing slogan for Nike than a tactical assault on the problems.
Thats it! I got it! The AIA's new marketing slogan:
"The AIA...Just Do It >insert swish sound now<"
or if that is somne kind of violation of law or ethics (not that the AIA has any reservations about that):
"The AIA...Just git 'er done"
passerby1ce,
I really appreciate SeaArch's valuable comments. I'll just pretend she is not wasting her time making money when she could be making a much better investment of her time having and raising healthy, happy children (and if don't have now...have now or adopt). The world needs better mothers and architects but a dedicated mother is much, much more essential to a prosperous civilization. IN fact civilization will get along quite nicely without architects but won't survive more than 20 years without dedicated mothers...which is what we are dealing with now, of course.
So winston AKA 'piggy' is it still your plan to become a structural engineer?
Going way back several posts:
I'm curious to hear some budget elaboration, specifically for New York. I've resisted looking for jobs there because of the extremely high cost of living and expected that offices were probably only paying in the low 40's at best. Just wondering how people make that work with $1500+ rent and student loan payments while still being able to afford food (and no ramen noodles is not food)
There seems to be quite a few delusions as to how much lawyers and doctors make starting out. I have quite a few friends starting out in the law profession that are only hovering around $40,000, and some who are making substantially less. Sure there are the few working for big firms that are pulling down some change, or doctors who choose to work in rural areas that are making far more than their urban peers, but it usually isn't until many years have passed that any of the professions start to pull down some serious salaries.
EdgewoodAnimal: perhaps. Perhaps I've found something even better. Perhaps not.
.._. .._ _._. _._ : My solution to that would not to pay $1500/month rent! I know it's NYC, but that's what roommates are for. So, here's my go at a budget assuming a $40,000/year paycheck, so 3,333.33/month, assuming the a quarter of that goes to taxes, $2,500/month.
Rent on apartment with roommate in Brooklyn: $800 (see craigslist for proof that it exists)
Loan Payments: $650 (this is what I pay per month, so your mileage may vary)
Bills: $100
Metro Card: $89
Savings: $100
______________________
This leaves $761 left, or about $190 a week for food, clothes, entertainment, and whatnot. Yeah, you're probably bringing your lunch to work every day, but that's what young professionals DO. We live small for a few years until we get more experience and better pay.
You're going to live small for more than a few years my friend.
Unless you marry up.
My cousin lived and worked in Manhattan, but had 3 roommates.
Most people I know who work in the city, commute from Jersey. Those I know who live in the city, live in the neighboring boroughs. Brooklyn still has some pretty inexpensive apartments. Don't be scared to move to the BX, Queens, or Harlem. Jersey City and Hoboken in NJ are popular spots for young professionals. I also have a few friends living in Newark.
Don't rule out living in NJ OR THE OTHER BOROUGHS.
For some reason, no matter where you're coming from, it feels like it takes 30 minute to an hour to get to Manhattan.
I think I've gone off topic.
Yeah, don't feel like you need to live anywhere near where you work. In fact you should look at some apartments in Philly if you work in Manhatten. I'm just saying don't rule it out.
Oh boy.
My dad, prior to my arrival, back in the early 60's took a job in Manhatten. He told me that for about 4 years he spent 2-3 hours travel inot Mnahatten and the same back to where he did live. 4 years and he up and packed the family and moved to Chicago.
Thank God.
If you can't afford to live within 1 hour of where you work, phuck it.
Sincerely
I could never live in the inner city. yuck!
Plus, I don't think I would survive more than 24 hours, I am too white and too nerdy.
Everytime I visit Manhattan I feel like I can't breathe or think or feel. Its like a bunch of rats in a maze clawing and scratching eachother to get any little remnant of cheese that is perchance not gobbled up faster than the bigger rat in your way. gross!
Chicago felt the same way. I locked my car doors and turned up the Bach and patiently waited for the terror to be over.
I guess all the big cities feel that way to me, these days, Boston too, but Boston has some nice parts.
oh piggy. let's just agree to disagree. I personally don't think the world's illls can be blamed on women or "bad" mothers. lol
Absolutely. This is actually the root of all our problems, the love of money and the contemporary phenomenon of hating the family.
How about we blame the world's ils on the following:
How about AWOL mothers and fathers who enjoy the act of spreading their seed around and then dump their kids in daycare, I mean public schools, I mean daycare and never even let the meaning of the word "responsiblity" cross their mind before having sexual intercourse?
Or how about mothers to be that abort the next generation in the first place?
Or how about mothers that don't even invest in the future by having and raising children yet derive the benefits of a civilized workforce during the entirety of their lifetimes (with malice/ design aforethought)?
But don't assume I mean something I didn't say by projecting your experience or values onto mine:
Even a relatively bad mother or bad father that is still a mother or a father to their children is far and away 1,000x better than any of the preceeding examples of "parenthood".
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.