"It's another to be blamed for that while not being given any opportunity. It may not necessarily be firm owners or architects in this argument but more so the business community as a whole. It is nothing but article after article about how Gen Y has too much self value, too much self esteem, too much this and too much that. In addition to that, how much they fail at business, cannot be adequate leaders, do not understand this or that.
But I don't see very many organizations reaching out here either. And I certainly don't see many of the government programs that helped older generations get into the positions they are in today doing the same for the younger generation.'
Exactly.
The good old "invisible hand" truly is invisible to 95% of the population, esp. those who don't see how it is helping them and only them along while holding everyone else down.
Building codes ad nauseum, insurance, lawyers, not being trained in the business side of things (contracts), crazy levels of city/ state/ fed levels of bureacracy, IRS tax laws that are way complex, how to navigate the myriad of corporate ownership of the tools needed to draft and render (e.g. AutoDesk the "partner" of the AIA), outrageous fees to join the expected professional organization, Continuing education credits ad infinity, outrageous student loans, etc. etc.
These are just a few of the "barriers to entry" that have been substantially beefed up the last twenty years and most established architects are so busy enjoying the fact that they got in on the racket thirty years ago that when they do take 10 minutes out of their day to consider the situation of the younger set the only shallow response they can offer is the same one that they were given, "do it because you love it."
It just doesn't work that way anymore. And the strengthening of these barriers of entry are no accident. Hell, if I had a chance to wield some power and monopolize the market in order to rule out competition (WalMart style) I would probably do it as well, as history has shown that sadly absolutely power usually does indeed corrupt absoltuely.
"It's another to be blamed for that while not being given any opportunity. It may not necessarily be firm owners or architects in this argument but more so the business community as a whole. It is nothing but article after article about how Gen Y has too much self value, too much self esteem, too much this and too much that. In addition to that, how much they fail at business, cannot be adequate leaders, do not understand this or that.
But I don't see very many organizations reaching out here either. And I certainly don't see many of the government programs that helped older generations get into the positions they are in today doing the same for the younger generation.'
Exactly.
The good old "invisible hand" truly is invisible to 95% of the population, esp. those who don't see how it is helping them and only them along while holding everyone else down.
Building codes ad nauseum, insurance, lawyers, not being trained in the business side of things (contracts), crazy levels of city/ state/ fed levels of bureacracy, IRS tax laws that are way complex, how to navigate the myriad of corporate ownership of the tools needed to draft and render (e.g. AutoDesk the "partner" of the AIA), outrageous fees to join the expected professional organization, Continuing education credits ad infinity, outrageous student loans, etc. etc.
These are just a few of the "barriers to entry" that have been substantially beefed up the last twenty years and most established architects are so busy enjoying the fact that they got in on the racket thirty years ago that when they do take 10 minutes out of their day to consider the situation of the younger set the only shallow response they can offer is the same one that they were given, "do it because you love it."
It just doesn't work that way anymore. And the strengthening of these barriers of entry are no accident. Hell, if I had a chance to wield some power and monopolize the market in order to rule out competition (WalMart style) I would probably do it as well, as history has shown that sadly absolutely power usually does indeed corrupt absoltuely.
"It's another to be blamed for that while not being given any opportunity. It may not necessarily be firm owners or architects in this argument but more so the business community as a whole. It is nothing but article after article about how Gen Y has too much self value, too much self esteem, too much this and too much that. In addition to that, how much they fail at business, cannot be adequate leaders, do not understand this or that.
But I don't see very many organizations reaching out here either. And I certainly don't see many of the government programs that helped older generations get into the positions they are in today doing the same for the younger generation.'
Exactly.
The good old "invisible hand" truly is invisible to 95% of the population, esp. those who don't see how it is helping them and only them along while holding everyone else down.
Building codes ad nauseum, insurance, lawyers, not being trained in the business side of things (contracts), crazy levels of city/ state/ fed levels of bureacracy, IRS tax laws that are way complex, how to navigate the myriad of corporate ownership of the tools needed to draft and render (e.g. AutoDesk the "partner" of the AIA), outrageous fees to join the expected professional organization, Continuing education credits ad infinity, outrageous student loans, etc. etc.
These are just a few of the "barriers to entry" that have been substantially beefed up the last twenty years and most established architects are so busy enjoying the fact that they got in on the racket thirty years ago that when they do take 10 minutes out of their day to consider the situation of the younger set the only shallow response they can offer is the same one that they were given, "do it because you love it."
It just doesn't work that way anymore. And the strengthening of these barriers of entry are no accident. Hell, if I had a chance to wield some power and monopolize the market in order to rule out competition (WalMart style) I would probably do it as well, as history has shown that sadly absolutely power usually does indeed corrupt absoltuely.
oh please. with each posting your argument seems more preposterous, obi wan kenobi.
each generation has its set of challenges and opportunities.
what about being your own client, create your own projects, propose things, ask for grants, apply for fellowships/teaching positions while your unemployment checks keep coming?
maybe it was easier for old timers to set up a business but they didn't have internet, for example, they had to do things locally and in person and you discount how easy access we have to information these days.
learn an open source software and you can sustain yourself in creating something while investing very little money.
really, this generational thing is useless, it's apples to oranges.
also, the young generation have themselves to blame for buying into an educational system that feeds off a cycle of star power and rising fads of technologies that may or may not amount to an actual advance in knowledge. Be more critical of what you want to get out of your education and make better decisions. you only have to go through the "commiserate" threads to see that this culture is alive and well.
I think on the fence is spot on about the perils of saddling yourself with loans.
as an aside, despite all the contentiousness this has turned into a very interesting thread.
montagneux, is this a planner's propensity to break down everything in numbers?
you have just found out that it's not worth your time to wake up and wash yourself in the morning, since there is no meeting you have to go to probably.
I only mean to say I find your breakdowns on this and other threads absurdly comical.
Its funny that 3 or 4 years ago anyone who came onto this forum denouncing MARCHs and the increased education requirements ( oxymoron?) for licensure was savagely chased off the boards and now that the reality has set in they are all complaining about how bad they have it.
I wrote 2 years ago that the kids today are bending over for NCARB and the stale university professors who contribute almost nothing to the profession or the development of it's young and was laughed at, berated, called old and neanderthal because of my 4 year technical BARCH, which doesn't even exist anymore - I hope you people take back the profession, I truly do. Im too old to care anymore about the licensure requirements and education but it is somewhat satisfying to see a sea change starting among the next generation. I said it 3 years ago and I'll say it again, " You guys are being ripped off". You go to school for 5 or 6 years, incurr $30-60-100K in debts, and Kant even wipe your ass without deeming it a Categoricaly Imperative action.
That is usually the point of those breakdowns is to be nothing but absurd.
And, yes it is my planner's propensity to break everything down into numbers. Considering I like to ratios and percentages... even if the numbers are wrong, it's the distance between the numbers that matters. It gives a better picture without relying on anecdotal evidence or pathological appeals.
It just grinds my gears to hear people say "You should volunteer while you're unemployed and or jobless!" As if doing things for no pay some how makes them free to do.
Sure, I feel good for scooping cat crap out of a bunch of cages at the animal shelter. (Although I've done that and it FEELS AWFUL.) But those cat feces don't magically transform into gasoline or lunch.
I could do an absurd calculation for you about the cost of showering versus not showering. Maybe a breakdown of the coverage area of topical creams to treat infections from a dermatologist versus the amount of money I'd be spending on soaps, water and electricity. Ohhhh, I wonder what the cost per square inch is!?
I am far from saying that. I would just like to see people going into schools being a little more critical of what they're getting out of it versus what they pay for it.
And I wished like someone posted above, that master degrees would offer some kind of specialization and not just more of the same (for those with an undergrad in architecture).
2step the prophets among us will never be accepted in their own time. Its like one of the first rules of the universe or something. Most people are just plain SLOW as long s they are comfortable themselves.
So this is why I say: I love the fact that the economy tanked.
Time to clean out the dead wood: and there is A LOT that has built up over the years that has choked the profession nigh to death.
Yup, schools are way out of touch with the professional/business world needs.
I think there will be a lot of cleaning out. Things aren't going to turn around for quite a while and people will eventually have to look to other careers or modifying their skills.
Not sure where everyone will go, but hopefully schools will start to look at providing more realistic skills (uh, kill most of the theory, please).
Architecture without theory is draughtsmanism - keen for that? I've met many a smug draughtsman who are content 'designing' McMansions and low scale commercial premises. Exciting and worthwhile.
The key idea with architecture school is to delay compromise - the real world - in order to learn..
The problem then, is that to survive in architecture as a profession you have to actually sacrifice the real world in order to survive - witness the examples above.
I dont know how you Americans do it - taking on so much debt. In terms of risk and reward, you have to start turning to the intangible in order to justify your decisions.
The more I think about it, the more I think that architecture is a service profession. Dont compare with doctors, compare with nurses [bless them].
The first question I get asked by architects when I tell them I work in construction is: what is the pay like? Its universal.
Architecture with an overpreponderance of theory is purely academic B.S. that severly harms professional development and practice.
Make it a additional requirement for all professors of architecture to be Licensed in their respective state. Kick the rest to the curb -they can smoke their dope where they belong -in the art department.
Throw all those who don't comply in jaul like lawyers and medical doctors do (professions that actually take themselves seriously inevitably find that the public takes them serioiusly as well, those that don't welllll...jsut take a look at the state of disarray the profession is in today to see how sad things get).
So Obi-Winston-Wan-Smith-Kanobi, what are you doing to fix the profession besides your incessant whining here? Since you're now a hot-shot licensed architect, I'm sure your state board would welcome your participation on its enforcement division. AIA would certainly welcome your presence on its ethics panel. Put up, or shut up, you pompous ass.
A close friend of mine graduated from a grad school in Philly, and was offered 50k here in philly and 50k in NYC with less than 1yr of exp total,
just two internships...Usually fresh out of grad school, you make 42-45k at corporate offices in philly, at least the ones I know..In the summer of 2008, when I was interning in NYC, entry level people coming into the firm were making 52-55k right out of school(This was right before the melt down began). With "a lot" of overtime work and pay..some were making close to 7k in their first year..Even as an intern, I was making 3k+/mo. So when I see people say they are making circa 35k with 5-10yrs exp, it is rather remarkable. I know location and size of firm matters a lot but still..
But then again its NYC..and most people who worked in the firm I interned were let go.. :(
"Architecture without theory is draughtsmanism - keen for that? I've met many a smug draughtsman who are content 'designing' McMansions and low scale commercial premises. Exciting and worthwhile.
The key idea with architecture school is to delay compromise - the real world - in order to learn.."
Firstly, the field needs draftsmen and there is nothing wrong with being a draftsmen. You don't need more than a 2 year degree to perform this function though so if you have a M.Arch and are a draftsmen, you got screwed.
Secondly, we do need people who can design the arses off, but a M.Arch does not mean you are one of them, nor does performingentry level architecture require it.
Again, maybe get a B.Arch first, go into the profession, see where it takes you for two years or so and decide if the extra costs of the Mach would benifit you. Most I would sya, not so much. It will save them their careers to be armed with this type of knowledge. Of course a school will not give you that info. so......
"The other things on your list are either bizarre, over step boundaries, assume I am like you or assumes I use every opportunity in my life to sell someone something they more than likely don't need."
This tells me a lot about why you are not successful. When I tell someone I meet at yoga class that I can help them redesign their retail store so they can increase sales by 10%, then do it, I am HELPING them, not selling them something they don't need. I see a huge value in what I do. When my project is finished, my clients see a HUGE VALUE IN WHAT I DO. They are thankful that I helped them be successful. They refer me to other business owners. They hug me when they see me in yoga class.
If you do good work, and you are enthusiastic and positive about what you do, then you will be successful. And then you can afford a car, or a bike, or to live in a city where they have invented a bus system.......
"I disagree with mont. It costs no money to go to planning meetings, make friends, participate, write article."
And then you can afford a car, or a bike, or to live in a city where they have invented a bus system...
I can afford a car, there is no place to bike to anywhere around here and even if my city had a bus system... where would it go and how frequently would it run?
My basic point is that every place is usually different from every other place. In some places, many of these opportunities simply do not exist or there is no other method of actually doing them.
For instance, in a place like Houston where there is obviously money to be had... there may not be any infrastructure (whether social or transportation) for someone young/poor/disenfranchised to simply go out and do things despite their presumably being a customer based.
Counter to that example, there are places like Philadelphia and New Orleans that do have the social and transportation infrastructure to get things done but a quick judgment of economic conditions suggests there's less likely to be potential customers.
If you live in an area where there is a lack of both, no amount of trying will actually work. This isn't an issue of painting someone as a victim or asking for sympathy. Rather, this is simply a condition of time and place.
Now, most things can be easily changed given certain circumstances. However, there are very few 25 years olds with the charisma and know how to get these done for themselves. It is a general presumption that these people lack experience to get these things done. So, even if someone were young and proactive... they get branded as idealistic collegiate douchebags whether or not their ideas have any actual merit.
You can take the same ideas, give them to someone with salt and pepper hair and present them... and they'll sell despite the fact that the only difference in those ideas in the ages of the people presenting them.
"That stuff is everyday life!!! Don't you do all that anyway?"
Yes. I do. Am I going to be nice to people because I see them all as potential paychecks? No, I'm nice to people out of either general interest in them or because they are people.
don't you make friends because you like people?
Yes. But the general people I am friends with are people who certainly can't afford my services and certainly can't afford the services of an architect.
I don't make it a point to associate myself in elitist establishments with the sole purpose of meeting people solely as businesses interests. And I'm certainly not going to pretend I like golf or sports to hang around country clubs or sports bars long enough to meet chance businessman who may throw me $300 a month worth of work.
go to church?
Implying I go to church or would use a church as a marketing opportunity. What if I am Buddhist or any other religion that denounces material wealth? Certainly does not seem like a venue to be talking business.
Even in the Abrahamic religions, the Sabbath is suppose to be free of work and worldly desires. Am I going to join a church, ignoring one of most basic rules, to shop my business services around? That has irony written all over it.
"Yes, I love Jesus. Would you sign this contract now?"
Take your kids to soccer?
Assuming I have kids or any desire to live out a white bread lifestyle. Even then, I'm certainly not going to embarrass my children by having "that guy" parent who tries to sell all of the other parents stuff. I'm sure this works for a lot of general homeowner type things (even architecture).
My parents were "those people" who were always trying to sell a ketchup popsicle to a woman in white gloves. It frankly is embarrassing when your peers tease you about it. And people on the non-business side of things label you as a snake in the grass.
Meet up with old school pals?
My 'old school' pals are in a similar position or in a worse position than I am. Most of them moved back home because their promise of college didn't really pay out. The others all primarily live in New York or Boston now working in jobs (and not necessarily jobs you would consider careers).
Chat with the neighbors over the fence?
My neighbors are the world's largest redneck assholes. Most of them are blue collar professionals. My only white collar neighbor is an architectural drafter who sits in his house all day long smoking weed. He lives next door to my other neighbor who only uses the house as a grow house.
I suppose I could provide financial management skills to the drug dealer... but I'm sure he knows how many oz. are in a pound.
Volunteer at the food bank?
The food bank around here is semi-privatized, is 20 miles away and is controlled by a church I'd rather not have affiliations with. I'm not going to participate in a tax shelter that people frequently use to "launder money."
Visit with the relatives and their friends?
My relatives all live 2000 miles away.
Go to the gym?
Because I'm sure 50 year old ladies on the gym that is a hollowed out CVS pharmacy want to talk business with sweaty thighs. I'd feel gross for even trying to shop my services out to a bunch of people who are desperately not trying to be the least bit socialable.
Tell your dentist about your practice in between rinse and spit?
My dentist is a mega bitch I'd rather not ever speak to.
The point to this?
Your Forbes-esque magazine business advice may work if you're a sterling example of Americana but does not work for everyone, everywhere.
That's pretty much been my whole point.
Like so many things in nature and even in physics, things often travel upon the path of least resistance. If you already have a decent life and on that "path," it is hard to tell someone with $150 bucks to their name to buck up and walk 8 miles to the nearest McDonalds to work for a $125 bucks a week.
If the area you live in was built around nothing but dubious profit-driven development schemes entrenched in modernism and contemporary science... 2000 year old traditional European values and life advice likely do not apply.
And if you're the child of one of these 1950s era "do whatever it takes" business people, staying away from business as usual generally is something you strive to do. Because no one likes being in something that feels like an AmWay pitch.
I dont think anyone is saying that you should go to all those events and just instantly start selling your architectural services to anyone within earshot
I think its more about talking to a lot of people and once they know what you do, you will know if there are any sort of opportunities out there
Yes i agree, if you are that person who within 2 minutes of meeting someone says: "oh, do you need an architect?" Then you will not get any work that way at all.
If we're talking about spending money to make money, cutting to the chase is what counts.
Obviously, I'd try to do the smart thing and foster relationships with those people. But that's a long and tedious process (that is frankly expensive) in order to gain some money. And if I'm just doing it for the money, that's really not a way to earn a sterling reputation.
The majority of my clients (and I don't do architecture) are small independent business owners. And you can generally get business from them through the formal channels of phone calls, faxes and occasional in-person visits.
For me, spending all of that money to make more money doesn't make sense if my longer term goal is to move away. I can spend 200-300 a month being more "active" and that probably works with limited success... but I can also be saving that 200-300 dollars.
Say, If I spend absolutely nothing and maintain what I have... I'll have 300 left over.
If I spend 300 a month to make 600, I'm still pulling in 300 total. Now, the 600 looks better to banks, creditors and makes my business more valuable if I sold it. But in terms of money at the end of the month, it is a moot point.
That is the assumption here if doing all of that actually guarantees any work which it does not. I'm all for word-of-mouth and social marketing. It is by far one of the most successful forms of marketing.
By far, one of the most successful businesses that relies on word-of-mouth marketing is Starbucks. But even Starbucks knows that only goes so far.
That's why Starbucks goes out of its way to only build stores in affluent areas that have high levels of social and transportation capital. People need to be able to move around, people need community and people need destinations-- that's how Starbucks works.
Words need people to travel and people have to be able to travel to say those words.
I was referring more towards the ones that were more in line with something you would already be doing, not making a special trip just to network
i.e.
the soccer games
the dentist
church
etc
so there isnt necessarily extra expense involved
It only takes 2 minutes to start the relationship. I could be mistaken, but i thought the other post was referring to making business contacts in not necessarily just "networking" situations
If you are friendly with your neighbor, or just spend a couple minutes talking with them when you see them on the street, that could lead to something down the road that you otherwise might not have had access to
And nothing you do will guarantee any work, that is the nature of the profession we are in.
My parents initially moved a long while back and I moved away from them. I got a lot of my business from someone who has retired and moved here out of sake of cheapness because it wasn't too far from where I went to school.
I had picked up the work because I found out my degree was essentially worthless and I have always had a fondness for Excel. But after about a year, I've realized why this area doesn't have any white collar professionals because it is a cultural and economic dead zone.
All of this despite there being like 550,000 people in this county.
Monty, monty, monty,...... (deep sigh). You are right. I am wrong. You should give up on architecture. Obviously you are too good and talented for the dirty business world of selling that involves vulgarities like telling people what you do for a living and being enthusiastic about it. You went into architecture so you could be tortured, sulk and complain and whine, and wear black all the time.
So you are correct. The world is against you. Everyone else in the entire world has opportunities but you, through no fault of your own. You have searched out every possible solution, and none of them will work for you. You live in a horrible neighborhood with loser friends, all your relatives ran away and forgot to give you the forwarding address, no one every taught you the right things, and even your dentist hates you. Perhaps you could find a new profession. Rabid blogger comes to mind.
Montagneaux, you must like to argue. You posted this a couple of days ago on another thread:
"Architects... like other design professionals... need to be more proactive with marketing to the furthest extent they can be. Every wall is potential guerrilla billboard and every park is a potential for a marketing stunt. Venues, bars and theatres are potential public relation events that allow you to connect to your customers in a comfortable informal setting. Other industry functions outside of architecture are a way for architects to learn about the business requirements and procedures who might be potential clients!
There are so many options that require little effort and little money that can provide profitable endeavors for firms. And many write these off as nonsense. They're not nonsense until you can prove they are nonsense!"
How come when I say the same thing you disagree? Just looking for a good debate?
Firstly, the field needs draftsmen and there is nothing wrong with being a draftsmen. You don't need more than a 2 year degree to perform this function though so if you have a M.Arch and are a draftsmen, you got screwed.
I am not suggesting we revert to being draftsmen. What I am suggesting to those who are espousing the merits of removing theory from architecture [and there are always alot of them] is that you actually remove architecture from architecture.
Silliness.
I am not all doom and gloom either. There are plenty of ideas out there of how to transform the architecture profession.
My points on this thread are about starting your own business as a young or disenfranchised person. That's even more difficult to do when you live in an area dominated by bedroom communities and commercial real estate controlled by a limited number of companies.
In that instance, most advice will fail to live up to expectation as the economics of mostly suburban communities is vastly different from developed or neotraditional communities.
In any event, my arguments in this thread are that "just doing it" is impractical if not impossible given the circumstances of today. People who have started their own firms in the past were more likely to succeed because of a combination of factors (less competitive markets, more direct government assistance, fewer complexities regarding place [regulation, deviation away from 'traditional' models] and so forth.)
If place wasn't a factor in success or important to success-- that is to say perseverance and drive could conquer this goal-- then we would have soo many economic development agencies, metropolitan planning organizations, "task forces," or the Small Business Administration.
Unfortunately, these organizations do not really function for the reasons they were created. Many of them often function as public-private partnerships where some of the barriers still exist to credit and capital.
They do, however, frequently cite infrastructure and place as a major failing of having legitimate market power and empowering entrepreneurs to succeed given the circumstances of those place.
In addition, the focus of building new infrastructure and encouraging new development is often a form of middle-class and upper-middle-class welfare. Since most young people are often "pedestrian" these programs do not really benefit them as they do not have the money to tools to gain access to them yet and often the results these organizations produce are not inline with many young people culturally.
This is not an argument of "Look at me, I'm a victim." This is an argument of "I would do that if I could do that." Furthermore, generational success is dependent on eliminating disenfranchisement through including an amount of diversity into these schemes. What is good for the goose is not always good for the gander.
If you do not build healthy areas with healthy business, you will not have healthy people. That's pretty simple. And no matter what attitude you have, starting a business in an area that was designed for market dominance by a few individuals is a hopeless endeavor.
Highly suburbanized areas with restrictive zoning ordinances are undemocratic and do not foster community development.
---
As for the second point you brought up that I said... those practices only really work if you have a decently-established firm with a ledger that is in the black. If you are using borrowed money for marketing, you're already in trouble.
So, if you're a firm that is making money... a few postcards, a few posters and maybe some sort of public interaction certain does not hurt. It may not help either. But many firms don't actively participate in formal channels to bring any new business.
So yes, indiscriminate marketing does help established firms gain more business. It does not usually help fledgling businesses that lack "experience" or name recognition.
You completely cut out half of my post from your quotation.
---
Lastly, I AM NOT IN ARCHITECTURAL SERVICES.
I AM IN FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT.
[b]I DO NOT LIVE IN CANADA AND I DID NOT GET FREE COLLEGE[/]b.
God, do you people even read posts in their entirety?
The Full Monty: "God, do you people even read posts in their entirety?"
Do you really think many people here are willing to spend the time to wade through the voluminous crap you spew here, hanging on to your every precious word? Once I realized you're not even a design professional, I started just skipping over your long-winded, non-sensical posts in their entirety.
Also, it's hard to have a discussion without posting voluminous crap.
If you don't over turn every stone in every post, someone will take an insignificant detail or sentence clause and turn it into a straw man argument.
I know most of my postings get over looked anyways because a lot of people on this board are just looking for charged and loaded political tripe to nitpick.
Yeah, well ... some of us have actual lives to live and actual careers ... there's just not time available to engage continuously in meaningless theoretical self-agrandizing navel gazing with pompous self-appointed experts who want to over-analyze and argue over trivial aspects of any and every subject that comes along.
ok i guess i should have spelled out every single thing for even a minor point there Obiwan
"just like there is no reason to expect everyone to remember you are not an architect either, when its assumed most posting here are"
should actually read:
"just like there is no reason to expect everyone to remember you are not an architect/ARCHITECTURAL INTERN/ANTHING ELSE IN THE ARCHITECTURAL FIELD either, when its assumed most posting here are"
better?
I forgot how much fun it is posting here when people disect every single word for no reason at all
"...I forgot how much fun it is posting here when people [disect] every single word for no reason at all"
or maybe because some people, but not most, like to think for themselves and try to figure out the difference between a lie and the truth.
I can not remember who coined the phrase on this forum "technically incompetent" earlier this week or last, but it really is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo damned applicable to wanna be architects and even (unfortunately) some actually Licensed Architects.
Some of us, but not most, demand technical competence from ourselves and others.
If you want respect from the exceptional crowd, aspire to technical accuracy. If not, well, just keep things fast and loose.
"If you want respect from the exceptional crowd, aspire to technical accuracy. If not, well, just keep things fast and loose."
haha
I always find it funny when someone likes to claim they are exceptional, or from the exceptional crowd or anything like that, and for some reason assume others are trying to earn their respect
I've also always felt that if you feel the need to actually say you are exceptional, chances are you might not actually be so. Not all the time though, but definitely a lot
babs
thats a nice compliment, thank you. And i agree with the rest as well, with perhaps some other names probably added as well
A close friend of mine graduated from a grad school in Philly.....
If I had a nickel for every "a friend of mine" story regarding salary, benefits, etc. The only salary information that I take seriously is the AIA (or other comprable sources) salary survey statistics. I for one am highly skeptical of the Archinect salary poll, which did start this thread way back when.
Second hand salary stories kinda remind me of all the excuses the older Architects I've worked with have for the reasons they never made partner. In reality, those Architect's probably just weren't good enough (or couldn't play office politics good enough) and well, those salaries you heard about are probably exaggerated too. After all, everyone wants to look successful.
The reality today is, would you take $35k with your 5-10 years exp over unemployment? Most people would.
Disgusting salaries!!
"It's another to be blamed for that while not being given any opportunity. It may not necessarily be firm owners or architects in this argument but more so the business community as a whole. It is nothing but article after article about how Gen Y has too much self value, too much self esteem, too much this and too much that. In addition to that, how much they fail at business, cannot be adequate leaders, do not understand this or that.
But I don't see very many organizations reaching out here either. And I certainly don't see many of the government programs that helped older generations get into the positions they are in today doing the same for the younger generation.'
Exactly.
The good old "invisible hand" truly is invisible to 95% of the population, esp. those who don't see how it is helping them and only them along while holding everyone else down.
Building codes ad nauseum, insurance, lawyers, not being trained in the business side of things (contracts), crazy levels of city/ state/ fed levels of bureacracy, IRS tax laws that are way complex, how to navigate the myriad of corporate ownership of the tools needed to draft and render (e.g. AutoDesk the "partner" of the AIA), outrageous fees to join the expected professional organization, Continuing education credits ad infinity, outrageous student loans, etc. etc.
These are just a few of the "barriers to entry" that have been substantially beefed up the last twenty years and most established architects are so busy enjoying the fact that they got in on the racket thirty years ago that when they do take 10 minutes out of their day to consider the situation of the younger set the only shallow response they can offer is the same one that they were given, "do it because you love it."
It just doesn't work that way anymore. And the strengthening of these barriers of entry are no accident. Hell, if I had a chance to wield some power and monopolize the market in order to rule out competition (WalMart style) I would probably do it as well, as history has shown that sadly absolutely power usually does indeed corrupt absoltuely.
"It's another to be blamed for that while not being given any opportunity. It may not necessarily be firm owners or architects in this argument but more so the business community as a whole. It is nothing but article after article about how Gen Y has too much self value, too much self esteem, too much this and too much that. In addition to that, how much they fail at business, cannot be adequate leaders, do not understand this or that.
But I don't see very many organizations reaching out here either. And I certainly don't see many of the government programs that helped older generations get into the positions they are in today doing the same for the younger generation.'
Exactly.
The good old "invisible hand" truly is invisible to 95% of the population, esp. those who don't see how it is helping them and only them along while holding everyone else down.
Building codes ad nauseum, insurance, lawyers, not being trained in the business side of things (contracts), crazy levels of city/ state/ fed levels of bureacracy, IRS tax laws that are way complex, how to navigate the myriad of corporate ownership of the tools needed to draft and render (e.g. AutoDesk the "partner" of the AIA), outrageous fees to join the expected professional organization, Continuing education credits ad infinity, outrageous student loans, etc. etc.
These are just a few of the "barriers to entry" that have been substantially beefed up the last twenty years and most established architects are so busy enjoying the fact that they got in on the racket thirty years ago that when they do take 10 minutes out of their day to consider the situation of the younger set the only shallow response they can offer is the same one that they were given, "do it because you love it."
It just doesn't work that way anymore. And the strengthening of these barriers of entry are no accident. Hell, if I had a chance to wield some power and monopolize the market in order to rule out competition (WalMart style) I would probably do it as well, as history has shown that sadly absolutely power usually does indeed corrupt absoltuely.
"It's another to be blamed for that while not being given any opportunity. It may not necessarily be firm owners or architects in this argument but more so the business community as a whole. It is nothing but article after article about how Gen Y has too much self value, too much self esteem, too much this and too much that. In addition to that, how much they fail at business, cannot be adequate leaders, do not understand this or that.
But I don't see very many organizations reaching out here either. And I certainly don't see many of the government programs that helped older generations get into the positions they are in today doing the same for the younger generation.'
Exactly.
The good old "invisible hand" truly is invisible to 95% of the population, esp. those who don't see how it is helping them and only them along while holding everyone else down.
Building codes ad nauseum, insurance, lawyers, not being trained in the business side of things (contracts), crazy levels of city/ state/ fed levels of bureacracy, IRS tax laws that are way complex, how to navigate the myriad of corporate ownership of the tools needed to draft and render (e.g. AutoDesk the "partner" of the AIA), outrageous fees to join the expected professional organization, Continuing education credits ad infinity, outrageous student loans, etc. etc.
These are just a few of the "barriers to entry" that have been substantially beefed up the last twenty years and most established architects are so busy enjoying the fact that they got in on the racket thirty years ago that when they do take 10 minutes out of their day to consider the situation of the younger set the only shallow response they can offer is the same one that they were given, "do it because you love it."
It just doesn't work that way anymore. And the strengthening of these barriers of entry are no accident. Hell, if I had a chance to wield some power and monopolize the market in order to rule out competition (WalMart style) I would probably do it as well, as history has shown that sadly absolutely power usually does indeed corrupt absoltuely.
Bus service? What's that?
oh please. with each posting your argument seems more preposterous, obi wan kenobi.
each generation has its set of challenges and opportunities.
what about being your own client, create your own projects, propose things, ask for grants, apply for fellowships/teaching positions while your unemployment checks keep coming?
maybe it was easier for old timers to set up a business but they didn't have internet, for example, they had to do things locally and in person and you discount how easy access we have to information these days.
learn an open source software and you can sustain yourself in creating something while investing very little money.
really, this generational thing is useless, it's apples to oranges.
also, the young generation have themselves to blame for buying into an educational system that feeds off a cycle of star power and rising fads of technologies that may or may not amount to an actual advance in knowledge. Be more critical of what you want to get out of your education and make better decisions. you only have to go through the "commiserate" threads to see that this culture is alive and well.
I think on the fence is spot on about the perils of saddling yourself with loans.
as an aside, despite all the contentiousness this has turned into a very interesting thread.
montagneux, is this a planner's propensity to break down everything in numbers?
you have just found out that it's not worth your time to wake up and wash yourself in the morning, since there is no meeting you have to go to probably.
I only mean to say I find your breakdowns on this and other threads absurdly comical.
Its funny that 3 or 4 years ago anyone who came onto this forum denouncing MARCHs and the increased education requirements ( oxymoron?) for licensure was savagely chased off the boards and now that the reality has set in they are all complaining about how bad they have it.
I wrote 2 years ago that the kids today are bending over for NCARB and the stale university professors who contribute almost nothing to the profession or the development of it's young and was laughed at, berated, called old and neanderthal because of my 4 year technical BARCH, which doesn't even exist anymore - I hope you people take back the profession, I truly do. Im too old to care anymore about the licensure requirements and education but it is somewhat satisfying to see a sea change starting among the next generation. I said it 3 years ago and I'll say it again, " You guys are being ripped off". You go to school for 5 or 6 years, incurr $30-60-100K in debts, and Kant even wipe your ass without deeming it a Categoricaly Imperative action.
so in your opinion, anyone who has any student loan debt is an idiot?
That is usually the point of those breakdowns is to be nothing but absurd.
And, yes it is my planner's propensity to break everything down into numbers. Considering I like to ratios and percentages... even if the numbers are wrong, it's the distance between the numbers that matters. It gives a better picture without relying on anecdotal evidence or pathological appeals.
It just grinds my gears to hear people say "You should volunteer while you're unemployed and or jobless!" As if doing things for no pay some how makes them free to do.
Sure, I feel good for scooping cat crap out of a bunch of cages at the animal shelter. (Although I've done that and it FEELS AWFUL.) But those cat feces don't magically transform into gasoline or lunch.
I could do an absurd calculation for you about the cost of showering versus not showering. Maybe a breakdown of the coverage area of topical creams to treat infections from a dermatologist versus the amount of money I'd be spending on soaps, water and electricity. Ohhhh, I wonder what the cost per square inch is!?
I am far from saying that. I would just like to see people going into schools being a little more critical of what they're getting out of it versus what they pay for it.
And I wished like someone posted above, that master degrees would offer some kind of specialization and not just more of the same (for those with an undergrad in architecture).
i agree with 2step....... i repeat.... I AGREE WITH 2STEP
"...You go to school for 5 or 6 years, incurr $30-60-100K in debts, and Kant even wipe your ass without deeming it a Categoricaly Imperative action."
The most simultaneously clever and insightful thing I have heard this month!
Stupendous!
2step the prophets among us will never be accepted in their own time. Its like one of the first rules of the universe or something. Most people are just plain SLOW as long s they are comfortable themselves.
So this is why I say: I love the fact that the economy tanked.
Time to clean out the dead wood: and there is A LOT that has built up over the years that has choked the profession nigh to death.
Yup, schools are way out of touch with the professional/business world needs.
I think there will be a lot of cleaning out. Things aren't going to turn around for quite a while and people will eventually have to look to other careers or modifying their skills.
Not sure where everyone will go, but hopefully schools will start to look at providing more realistic skills (uh, kill most of the theory, please).
Here are a few issues:
Architecture without theory is draughtsmanism - keen for that? I've met many a smug draughtsman who are content 'designing' McMansions and low scale commercial premises. Exciting and worthwhile.
The key idea with architecture school is to delay compromise - the real world - in order to learn..
The problem then, is that to survive in architecture as a profession you have to actually sacrifice the real world in order to survive - witness the examples above.
I dont know how you Americans do it - taking on so much debt. In terms of risk and reward, you have to start turning to the intangible in order to justify your decisions.
The more I think about it, the more I think that architecture is a service profession. Dont compare with doctors, compare with nurses [bless them].
The first question I get asked by architects when I tell them I work in construction is: what is the pay like? Its universal.
Architecture with an overpreponderance of theory is purely academic B.S. that severly harms professional development and practice.
Make it a additional requirement for all professors of architecture to be Licensed in their respective state. Kick the rest to the curb -they can smoke their dope where they belong -in the art department.
Throw all those who don't comply in jaul like lawyers and medical doctors do (professions that actually take themselves seriously inevitably find that the public takes them serioiusly as well, those that don't welllll...jsut take a look at the state of disarray the profession is in today to see how sad things get).
So Obi-Winston-Wan-Smith-Kanobi, what are you doing to fix the profession besides your incessant whining here? Since you're now a hot-shot licensed architect, I'm sure your state board would welcome your participation on its enforcement division. AIA would certainly welcome your presence on its ethics panel. Put up, or shut up, you pompous ass.
Actually making 50k is great considering most of us are glorified artists/draftsman.
Architects that actually solve real problems using creativity and innovation do get paid well.
Oh wow. Y'all a bunch of bitches.
c'mon babs, give them a break
clearly, whining and ranting on an internet forum pointing out how everyone else is at fault is going to change the profession for the better
what more do you expect from these victims?
I agree with Med. Where are you guys living??
A close friend of mine graduated from a grad school in Philly, and was offered 50k here in philly and 50k in NYC with less than 1yr of exp total,
just two internships...Usually fresh out of grad school, you make 42-45k at corporate offices in philly, at least the ones I know..In the summer of 2008, when I was interning in NYC, entry level people coming into the firm were making 52-55k right out of school(This was right before the melt down began). With "a lot" of overtime work and pay..some were making close to 7k in their first year..Even as an intern, I was making 3k+/mo. So when I see people say they are making circa 35k with 5-10yrs exp, it is rather remarkable. I know location and size of firm matters a lot but still..
But then again its NYC..and most people who worked in the firm I interned were let go.. :(
diabase,
"Architecture without theory is draughtsmanism - keen for that? I've met many a smug draughtsman who are content 'designing' McMansions and low scale commercial premises. Exciting and worthwhile.
The key idea with architecture school is to delay compromise - the real world - in order to learn.."
Firstly, the field needs draftsmen and there is nothing wrong with being a draftsmen. You don't need more than a 2 year degree to perform this function though so if you have a M.Arch and are a draftsmen, you got screwed.
Secondly, we do need people who can design the arses off, but a M.Arch does not mean you are one of them, nor does performingentry level architecture require it.
Again, maybe get a B.Arch first, go into the profession, see where it takes you for two years or so and decide if the extra costs of the Mach would benifit you. Most I would sya, not so much. It will save them their careers to be armed with this type of knowledge. Of course a school will not give you that info. so......
Monty, you said;
"The other things on your list are either bizarre, over step boundaries, assume I am like you or assumes I use every opportunity in my life to sell someone something they more than likely don't need."
This tells me a lot about why you are not successful. When I tell someone I meet at yoga class that I can help them redesign their retail store so they can increase sales by 10%, then do it, I am HELPING them, not selling them something they don't need. I see a huge value in what I do. When my project is finished, my clients see a HUGE VALUE IN WHAT I DO. They are thankful that I helped them be successful. They refer me to other business owners. They hug me when they see me in yoga class.
If you do good work, and you are enthusiastic and positive about what you do, then you will be successful. And then you can afford a car, or a bike, or to live in a city where they have invented a bus system.......
"I disagree with mont. It costs no money to go to planning meetings, make friends, participate, write article."
And then you can afford a car, or a bike, or to live in a city where they have invented a bus system...
I can afford a car, there is no place to bike to anywhere around here and even if my city had a bus system... where would it go and how frequently would it run?
My basic point is that every place is usually different from every other place. In some places, many of these opportunities simply do not exist or there is no other method of actually doing them.
For instance, in a place like Houston where there is obviously money to be had... there may not be any infrastructure (whether social or transportation) for someone young/poor/disenfranchised to simply go out and do things despite their presumably being a customer based.
Counter to that example, there are places like Philadelphia and New Orleans that do have the social and transportation infrastructure to get things done but a quick judgment of economic conditions suggests there's less likely to be potential customers.
If you live in an area where there is a lack of both, no amount of trying will actually work. This isn't an issue of painting someone as a victim or asking for sympathy. Rather, this is simply a condition of time and place.
Now, most things can be easily changed given certain circumstances. However, there are very few 25 years olds with the charisma and know how to get these done for themselves. It is a general presumption that these people lack experience to get these things done. So, even if someone were young and proactive... they get branded as idealistic collegiate douchebags whether or not their ideas have any actual merit.
You can take the same ideas, give them to someone with salt and pepper hair and present them... and they'll sell despite the fact that the only difference in those ideas in the ages of the people presenting them.
"That stuff is everyday life!!! Don't you do all that anyway?"
Yes. I do. Am I going to be nice to people because I see them all as potential paychecks? No, I'm nice to people out of either general interest in them or because they are people.
don't you make friends because you like people?
Yes. But the general people I am friends with are people who certainly can't afford my services and certainly can't afford the services of an architect.
I don't make it a point to associate myself in elitist establishments with the sole purpose of meeting people solely as businesses interests. And I'm certainly not going to pretend I like golf or sports to hang around country clubs or sports bars long enough to meet chance businessman who may throw me $300 a month worth of work.
go to church?
Implying I go to church or would use a church as a marketing opportunity. What if I am Buddhist or any other religion that denounces material wealth? Certainly does not seem like a venue to be talking business.
Even in the Abrahamic religions, the Sabbath is suppose to be free of work and worldly desires. Am I going to join a church, ignoring one of most basic rules, to shop my business services around? That has irony written all over it.
"Yes, I love Jesus. Would you sign this contract now?"
Take your kids to soccer?
Assuming I have kids or any desire to live out a white bread lifestyle. Even then, I'm certainly not going to embarrass my children by having "that guy" parent who tries to sell all of the other parents stuff. I'm sure this works for a lot of general homeowner type things (even architecture).
My parents were "those people" who were always trying to sell a ketchup popsicle to a woman in white gloves. It frankly is embarrassing when your peers tease you about it. And people on the non-business side of things label you as a snake in the grass.
Meet up with old school pals?
My 'old school' pals are in a similar position or in a worse position than I am. Most of them moved back home because their promise of college didn't really pay out. The others all primarily live in New York or Boston now working in jobs (and not necessarily jobs you would consider careers).
Chat with the neighbors over the fence?
My neighbors are the world's largest redneck assholes. Most of them are blue collar professionals. My only white collar neighbor is an architectural drafter who sits in his house all day long smoking weed. He lives next door to my other neighbor who only uses the house as a grow house.
I suppose I could provide financial management skills to the drug dealer... but I'm sure he knows how many oz. are in a pound.
Volunteer at the food bank?
The food bank around here is semi-privatized, is 20 miles away and is controlled by a church I'd rather not have affiliations with. I'm not going to participate in a tax shelter that people frequently use to "launder money."
Visit with the relatives and their friends?
My relatives all live 2000 miles away.
Go to the gym?
Because I'm sure 50 year old ladies on the gym that is a hollowed out CVS pharmacy want to talk business with sweaty thighs. I'd feel gross for even trying to shop my services out to a bunch of people who are desperately not trying to be the least bit socialable.
Tell your dentist about your practice in between rinse and spit?
My dentist is a mega bitch I'd rather not ever speak to.
The point to this?
Your Forbes-esque magazine business advice may work if you're a sterling example of Americana but does not work for everyone, everywhere.
That's pretty much been my whole point.
Like so many things in nature and even in physics, things often travel upon the path of least resistance. If you already have a decent life and on that "path," it is hard to tell someone with $150 bucks to their name to buck up and walk 8 miles to the nearest McDonalds to work for a $125 bucks a week.
If the area you live in was built around nothing but dubious profit-driven development schemes entrenched in modernism and contemporary science... 2000 year old traditional European values and life advice likely do not apply.
And if you're the child of one of these 1950s era "do whatever it takes" business people, staying away from business as usual generally is something you strive to do. Because no one likes being in something that feels like an AmWay pitch.
Free medical, change dentists.
I dont think anyone is saying that you should go to all those events and just instantly start selling your architectural services to anyone within earshot
I think its more about talking to a lot of people and once they know what you do, you will know if there are any sort of opportunities out there
Yes i agree, if you are that person who within 2 minutes of meeting someone says: "oh, do you need an architect?" Then you will not get any work that way at all.
Man, I just have got to ask.
"My relatives all live 2000 miles away."
Did they move or did you?
Marmkid...
That two minutes is usually what counts.
If we're talking about spending money to make money, cutting to the chase is what counts.
Obviously, I'd try to do the smart thing and foster relationships with those people. But that's a long and tedious process (that is frankly expensive) in order to gain some money. And if I'm just doing it for the money, that's really not a way to earn a sterling reputation.
The majority of my clients (and I don't do architecture) are small independent business owners. And you can generally get business from them through the formal channels of phone calls, faxes and occasional in-person visits.
For me, spending all of that money to make more money doesn't make sense if my longer term goal is to move away. I can spend 200-300 a month being more "active" and that probably works with limited success... but I can also be saving that 200-300 dollars.
Say, If I spend absolutely nothing and maintain what I have... I'll have 300 left over.
If I spend 300 a month to make 600, I'm still pulling in 300 total. Now, the 600 looks better to banks, creditors and makes my business more valuable if I sold it. But in terms of money at the end of the month, it is a moot point.
That is the assumption here if doing all of that actually guarantees any work which it does not. I'm all for word-of-mouth and social marketing. It is by far one of the most successful forms of marketing.
By far, one of the most successful businesses that relies on word-of-mouth marketing is Starbucks. But even Starbucks knows that only goes so far.
That's why Starbucks goes out of its way to only build stores in affluent areas that have high levels of social and transportation capital. People need to be able to move around, people need community and people need destinations-- that's how Starbucks works.
Words need people to travel and people have to be able to travel to say those words.
I was referring more towards the ones that were more in line with something you would already be doing, not making a special trip just to network
i.e.
the soccer games
the dentist
church
etc
so there isnt necessarily extra expense involved
It only takes 2 minutes to start the relationship. I could be mistaken, but i thought the other post was referring to making business contacts in not necessarily just "networking" situations
If you are friendly with your neighbor, or just spend a couple minutes talking with them when you see them on the street, that could lead to something down the road that you otherwise might not have had access to
And nothing you do will guarantee any work, that is the nature of the profession we are in.
OTF
My parents initially moved a long while back and I moved away from them. I got a lot of my business from someone who has retired and moved here out of sake of cheapness because it wasn't too far from where I went to school.
I had picked up the work because I found out my degree was essentially worthless and I have always had a fondness for Excel. But after about a year, I've realized why this area doesn't have any white collar professionals because it is a cultural and economic dead zone.
All of this despite there being like 550,000 people in this county.
Monty, monty, monty,...... (deep sigh). You are right. I am wrong. You should give up on architecture. Obviously you are too good and talented for the dirty business world of selling that involves vulgarities like telling people what you do for a living and being enthusiastic about it. You went into architecture so you could be tortured, sulk and complain and whine, and wear black all the time.
So you are correct. The world is against you. Everyone else in the entire world has opportunities but you, through no fault of your own. You have searched out every possible solution, and none of them will work for you. You live in a horrible neighborhood with loser friends, all your relatives ran away and forgot to give you the forwarding address, no one every taught you the right things, and even your dentist hates you. Perhaps you could find a new profession. Rabid blogger comes to mind.
Cry me a river, babe.
where exactly do you live that has 550,000 people in the county yet there is no architectural opportunities?
are you in a perfect catch 22 then?
Montagneaux, you must like to argue. You posted this a couple of days ago on another thread:
"Architects... like other design professionals... need to be more proactive with marketing to the furthest extent they can be. Every wall is potential guerrilla billboard and every park is a potential for a marketing stunt. Venues, bars and theatres are potential public relation events that allow you to connect to your customers in a comfortable informal setting. Other industry functions outside of architecture are a way for architects to learn about the business requirements and procedures who might be potential clients!
There are so many options that require little effort and little money that can provide profitable endeavors for firms. And many write these off as nonsense. They're not nonsense until you can prove they are nonsense!"
How come when I say the same thing you disagree? Just looking for a good debate?
I am not suggesting we revert to being draftsmen. What I am suggesting to those who are espousing the merits of removing theory from architecture [and there are always alot of them] is that you actually remove architecture from architecture.
Silliness.
I am not all doom and gloom either. There are plenty of ideas out there of how to transform the architecture profession.
My points on this thread are about starting your own business as a young or disenfranchised person. That's even more difficult to do when you live in an area dominated by bedroom communities and commercial real estate controlled by a limited number of companies.
In that instance, most advice will fail to live up to expectation as the economics of mostly suburban communities is vastly different from developed or neotraditional communities.
In any event, my arguments in this thread are that "just doing it" is impractical if not impossible given the circumstances of today. People who have started their own firms in the past were more likely to succeed because of a combination of factors (less competitive markets, more direct government assistance, fewer complexities regarding place [regulation, deviation away from 'traditional' models] and so forth.)
If place wasn't a factor in success or important to success-- that is to say perseverance and drive could conquer this goal-- then we would have soo many economic development agencies, metropolitan planning organizations, "task forces," or the Small Business Administration.
Unfortunately, these organizations do not really function for the reasons they were created. Many of them often function as public-private partnerships where some of the barriers still exist to credit and capital.
They do, however, frequently cite infrastructure and place as a major failing of having legitimate market power and empowering entrepreneurs to succeed given the circumstances of those place.
In addition, the focus of building new infrastructure and encouraging new development is often a form of middle-class and upper-middle-class welfare. Since most young people are often "pedestrian" these programs do not really benefit them as they do not have the money to tools to gain access to them yet and often the results these organizations produce are not inline with many young people culturally.
This is not an argument of "Look at me, I'm a victim." This is an argument of "I would do that if I could do that." Furthermore, generational success is dependent on eliminating disenfranchisement through including an amount of diversity into these schemes. What is good for the goose is not always good for the gander.
If you do not build healthy areas with healthy business, you will not have healthy people. That's pretty simple. And no matter what attitude you have, starting a business in an area that was designed for market dominance by a few individuals is a hopeless endeavor.
Highly suburbanized areas with restrictive zoning ordinances are undemocratic and do not foster community development.
---
As for the second point you brought up that I said... those practices only really work if you have a decently-established firm with a ledger that is in the black. If you are using borrowed money for marketing, you're already in trouble.
So, if you're a firm that is making money... a few postcards, a few posters and maybe some sort of public interaction certain does not hurt. It may not help either. But many firms don't actively participate in formal channels to bring any new business.
So yes, indiscriminate marketing does help established firms gain more business. It does not usually help fledgling businesses that lack "experience" or name recognition.
You completely cut out half of my post from your quotation.
---
Lastly, I AM NOT IN ARCHITECTURAL SERVICES.
I AM IN FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT.
[b]I DO NOT LIVE IN CANADA AND I DID NOT GET FREE COLLEGE[/]b.
God, do you people even read posts in their entirety?
The Full Monty: "God, do you people even read posts in their entirety?"
Do you really think many people here are willing to spend the time to wade through the voluminous crap you spew here, hanging on to your every precious word? Once I realized you're not even a design professional, I started just skipping over your long-winded, non-sensical posts in their entirety.
I am a graphic designer, too.
I am a former urban planner and a former urban designer.
Hur.
Also, it's hard to have a discussion without posting voluminous crap.
If you don't over turn every stone in every post, someone will take an insignificant detail or sentence clause and turn it into a straw man argument.
I know most of my postings get over looked anyways because a lot of people on this board are just looking for charged and loaded political tripe to nitpick.
Yeah, well ... some of us have actual lives to live and actual careers ... there's just not time available to engage continuously in meaningless theoretical self-agrandizing navel gazing with pompous self-appointed experts who want to over-analyze and argue over trivial aspects of any and every subject that comes along.
That's all what you've seem to have done here, too.
there is no reason to expect everyone to read 6 or 7 paragraph posts all the time and remember all the points
just like there is no reason to expect everyone to remember you are not an architect either, when its assumed most posting here are
i wouldnt take it personal, mont, as you say, most here are just rants anyway
Wait! Be still my heart!
Not everyone here is an Architect?!
I'm going to go take a cold shower...I feel dirty now.
As if even half the posters here are even good at hiding their unlicensed "designer" status...
I'm the former king of swing.
ok i guess i should have spelled out every single thing for even a minor point there Obiwan
"just like there is no reason to expect everyone to remember you are not an architect either, when its assumed most posting here are"
should actually read:
"just like there is no reason to expect everyone to remember you are not an architect/ARCHITECTURAL INTERN/ANTHING ELSE IN THE ARCHITECTURAL FIELD either, when its assumed most posting here are"
better?
I forgot how much fun it is posting here when people disect every single word for no reason at all
"...I forgot how much fun it is posting here when people [disect] every single word for no reason at all"
or maybe because some people, but not most, like to think for themselves and try to figure out the difference between a lie and the truth.
I can not remember who coined the phrase on this forum "technically incompetent" earlier this week or last, but it really is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo damned applicable to wanna be architects and even (unfortunately) some actually Licensed Architects.
Some of us, but not most, demand technical competence from ourselves and others.
If you want respect from the exceptional crowd, aspire to technical accuracy. If not, well, just keep things fast and loose.
ObiWanKenobi: "I can not remember who coined the phrase on this forum "technically incompetent" earlier this week or last..."
Obi-Winston-Wan-Smith-Kenobi: It was you, you lame ass, self-absorbed, waste of electrons:
WinstonSmith
Total Entries: 1
Total Comments: 151
03/16/10 14:15
The irony is that montagneux and marmkid both display all the hallmarks of licensed architects or future architects that are TECHNICALLY incompetent.
"If you want respect from the exceptional crowd, aspire to technical accuracy. If not, well, just keep things fast and loose."
haha
I always find it funny when someone likes to claim they are exceptional, or from the exceptional crowd or anything like that, and for some reason assume others are trying to earn their respect
I've also always felt that if you feel the need to actually say you are exceptional, chances are you might not actually be so. Not all the time though, but definitely a lot
babs
thats a nice compliment, thank you. And i agree with the rest as well, with perhaps some other names probably added as well
If I had a nickel for every "a friend of mine" story regarding salary, benefits, etc. The only salary information that I take seriously is the AIA (or other comprable sources) salary survey statistics. I for one am highly skeptical of the Archinect salary poll, which did start this thread way back when.
Second hand salary stories kinda remind me of all the excuses the older Architects I've worked with have for the reasons they never made partner. In reality, those Architect's probably just weren't good enough (or couldn't play office politics good enough) and well, those salaries you heard about are probably exaggerated too. After all, everyone wants to look successful.
The reality today is, would you take $35k with your 5-10 years exp over unemployment? Most people would.
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