nope, I believe in a person taking responsibility for themselves. People come from the worst most horrific backgrounds and yet manage to be a force of good. That argument for me holds no dice.
rereading my post, i don't think i contradicted myself at all. you work on your own, yes, to change your own circumstances within the profession, and then you also work with others in the profession because people working together has more impact than working alone. you have to work at multiple scales - personal, firm, local, profession-at-large, and public-at-large.
listening and making an effort to understand others is critical to what an architect does. it's how we address our client's, users', or stakeholders' goals empathetically.
instead, you're a good word-twister, winstonsmith, manipulating what others' say to correspond to your own world view. congratulations. you'd best get out now.
As if I had anything to do with the "disgusting salaries" before I came on the scene as I just finished getting all licensed up.
It would seem that those who came before are the ones who "individualy" and "collectively" wrecked it for every succeeding generation, no?
And from previous posts I'm pretty sure you are one of those who has had ample time to either fix it or get out of the way Steven, correct me if I am wrong?
So...if actions and results speak louder than words, I think the current state of the profession, and no it didn't just "happen" 2 years ago, will be ample proof enough to demonstrate that your approach Steven, is probably the last approach anyone should muster at this point.
what would you like shown, winston? we've got a growing office of people (12 right now) who have all been with us for at least 3 yrs.
during this downturn, we've worked hard to keep our workload and we've had NO layoffs. though we've had work, we haven't felt it's stable/consistent enough that we can commit to the next hire this year: we don't want to be a hire-and-fire firm. when we hire, we commit. so we've been working with some sole practitioners, hiring them to carry some of the work and filling in their gaps.
we encourage everyone in our office to participate in community activities, aia, csi, local chambers of commerce, and we send them for training and to various conferences in which they can connect with people beyond the profession. we have pool parties and cookouts together and, beyond that, several of the staff hang together after hours and on weekends just because they're friends.
i actually haven't been in a position of leadership very long. i was hired from my solo-practice in 2005 with the stated goal of not running the business, but things have evolved differently than planned (a good thing) and i was just made a partner in 2009.
a good question right now would be
what are people doing
now that they don't have a job in a firm
and they want to become future architects
me:
tried to get a job
any where
had to much college
so
i became a substitute
because the school district
was the only place that would hire me.
i drew in class while the kids were doing work
and then a gallery owner
approached me about my drawings
and they are now being displayed
we've heard from ATR
what's everyone else doing up to
I just finished my MArch and am starting two companies. One doing what I was doing 9 years ago when I decided to go to school for architecture, web / graphic design (which had just had its bubble popped and no jobs in the field) and another as a research outfit for doing competitions and cross discipline collaborations....my tinkering self needs an outlet for competitions, research, and just curious investigation into everything from nano materials, linux servers, arduino boards, zigbee interfaces, mesh networks...and on and on.
Why anyone in the design field would wait for service work to come their way is beyond me. I have been very facinated by the general lack of developing patents, solutions, Industrial design, from within the Architecture field. There seems to be a historical reference to "masters" the whole FLW persona...and a belief that you should get to do interesting a cool work because you are you.
Well I for one am not waiting and instead will be the place where firms have to go to solve problems they are ill prepared to engage. The future is now and you can either be part of creating it or standing on the sidelines. The internet is far more ground breaking than the car, I believe, as is the development of the digital world. Imagine the car 10 to 15 years after its inception...it was still a baby...a mere flash of what it would become. The digital world is in its infancy and there is much more opportunity than many will ever know. 20 years from now there will be lots people going, why didn't I do something back when this was all so new.
ATR is correct. If what you know doesn't make your way...you had better get to learning more.
In the month since I have graduated I have picked up some content management systems, Silverstripe, Texapattern, Drupal...got back into running Linux scripts from the terminal...and refamiliarized myself with jquery, tweener, processing...etc. As far as I am concerned the lack of jobs is sort of a blessing as there is time to equip oneself for a much longer trajectory.
And guess what...I will not be sucking up in hopes of landing some cad monkey work for $10 an hour tops. Fuck that. Instead I plan on making money from my skillset...web, graphics, teaching classes to professionals in anything from cs4 to rhino to max to GIS etc.
If you are waiting for someone to come give you 6- 10% of their project...you might be waiting for awhile. Me, I plan on being my own client...I have much too large of a skillset to sit by making a pittance in hopes of being someones underpaid lackey...if paid at all.
Unpaid internships are a whole other thing...that element of this profession trends towards the same ego driven bullshit that one must suffer because those before us did. Bite me. Taking advantage of someone is taking advantage of someone. I empathize with those who feel like their backs are against the wall and that that is one of the few options they have. Screw anyone willing to abuse someone elses value that way and forge out on your own and do the things you have always dreamed of...as they say..."you only live once"
With that...I have forgone caring at all about getting licensed. I want to get stuff built. Web sites, furniture, research, architecture...do do do. There is no time for anything else. Find partners who share your aspirations and start making it happen with every odd hour you have in the day. Give up TV...posting all day, video games, etc...and get to work.
chupacabra is the best forum name I have heard in a long time...and he/she/ it makes a lot of sense. GO get 'em tiger, show that IT world who the real architects are!
Thanks copper_top et.al. for the info. It's hard to accurately gauge cost-of-living budget sometimes without having first hand experience...I find the online calculators to not always be the most accurate tools, esp because it seems like Architecture jobs pretty much pay the same regardless of what city you live in.
I have to agree with on the fence about the commute. Anything more than about 45 minutes is too much. I'm unwilling to give up gym and running time to sit on a train for 2+ hours.
OTF
"Aparently you are just one of those people happy to be strapped with an almost redictardufukinlous amount of student debt compared to salary. To each his own. If you can make that work out I imagine, and this is another assumption, that your spouse works a full time gig as well."
Again, if your entire view on everything is first to be negative, then you will always find something else to bitch and moan about
Yes, i would prefer to have no student loan debt at all. But i made my choices for a number of reasons, and feel that what i gained is worth far more than the amount of debt i have. I make around 40k since i graduated almost 4 years ago.
And if your whole basis on whether or not student loans are acceptable is to what your salary will be in your 1st 5 years of your career, then you would be an absolute idiot to ever take any on.
I feel that i will not be peaking salary-wise in my first couple years of work. And given where i am now compared to where i was when i started, I am as certain as possible that i made the right decision.
I am not sure what my wife and her career has to do with anything, unless it is more complaining about how some architects arent lucky enough to have a spouse with a job? If you could elaborate on that a bit more, maybe i misunderstood?
She is not paying for everything, like you seem to be implying, which is again completely absurd to think that the only way an architect can survive is by having others pay for everything.
Do you have any idea at all how to manage money? It sounds like you dont
"And I'm not whinning. I am trying to educate those entering this field. I could certainly have stayed in it if I wanted to but chose to move upwards instead. My student loan was only about $15,000 so you can imagine how long it took for me to get back positive"
It sounds an awful lot like whining. You are only pointing out the negative on everything, and not acknowledging anything positive. The fact that you keep implying that the only way you could move "up" was to leave the field shows just how correct your decision was for you. Your definition of "up" and how long it takes to get there or anything is not a standard for everyone by any means at all
Reading your posts, I see very little reason to really believe you when you say that you are only trying to "educate" anyone.
There are ways to move "up" as an architect, even in today's climate. I have been doing it for 4 years now and am not stopping any time soon. It is not this impossible task some like to make it out to be.
Thom Mayne is a nobody. I couldn't care less what he thinks. In fact, reality is most likely the opposite of what a sycophant like him thinks.
Now, perhaps if he puts his family first I might care...but I highly doubt that he puts his family before architecture and the pursuit of fame and fortune. At least its reasonable to suspect as much based on precedent.
working on finishing my masters this may. ive been laid off for 16 months for a firm... cant find a lousy drafting job to save my life! i am currently working at safeway as a cashier... and this May I will have to start paying off my 120k nut plus interest. lets do some basic math... 30 years plus interest = just over half a million dollars... i'll be 55 years old by then... if i ever live to see that day with all this stress!
I'm too lazy to read the responses so I will reply to the post, disregarding the responses.
I think - - and my peers have said this as well - - architecture & interior design is a career built on passion, more on anything. I don't think there is an architect who expects to be like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs or to be part of the Forbes list to begin with. Times like this, it is damn impractical to hold on to our ideals and passions but sometimes, there is just this inexplicable joy that you feel when you see something you've put so much hard work on (and lost so much sleep over) right there before your eyes. I'm an architecture graduate who has chosen to go into interior architecture and have spent a great deal amount working and on some very interesting projects. The process came with enormous amounts of conflicts, heartaches, stress and hair pulling...Days ago, I saw photos of the project on a website and there was this inexplicable joy in my chest. Boy o boy, I was not well compensated for the job, nor do I get any credit for that - - but knowing, just knowing I did something for that project was reward itself.
Anyway, I'm having quite a challenge looking for a job. Ha ha ha. Whenever I read features on great buildings and great spaces, I KNOW and I still want to work in this field, but when reality hits me (like the pay and the opportunities), I second guess myself and want to hit my head on a wall then again, I can't really imagine myself doing anything else or something NOT related to it...Construction & Project management included :P
Am I a friggin loser for saying that??? LOL. Delusional, maybe.
probono: "this May I will have to start paying off my 120k nut"
I had two thoughts when reading the above quote a) OMG, are you mad?, and b) OMG, you're so screwed!
Truly, I wish you well in dealing with that commitment. But I hope other students (and faculty) here are paying close attention to the downside of massive student debt. It has a draining impact on your life long after the fun of college becomes a distant memory.
"Yes, i would prefer to have no student loan debt at all. But i made my choices for a number of reasons, and feel that what i gained is worth far more than the amount of debt i have. I make around 40k since i graduated almost 4 "
Amazing. Simply amazing. 4 years into your career and you are making 40k. We now have something in common. 4 years after I started I was making 40k. Ten years ago, and I don't have a M.Arch.
So good on you my internet buddy.
But again I didn't leave with $65k in debt. Come talk to me again after ten years when you are making $55K and still haven't paid off your loans.
How is that for being positive?
Again sorry for confusing you with montagneux. He/she has no loans for the free schooling from canada. Now he can come to America and try and find a job,same as you, minus the debt of course.
"Difference between a lawyer and an architect: The lawyer adapts his hourly wage to his lifestyle. The architect is expected to adapt his lifestyle to his hourly wage."
Sure, a clever bit of writing but it has little basis in reality. I know many law firms that have had massive layoffs over the past 18 months and many lawyers that have little to do - they're suffering in this recession too. Even in good times, lawyers are subject to market forces just like architects.
"Do you have any idea at all how to manage money? It sounds like you dont"
I dunno. I feel like I understand money. Proper planning on my part will pay off my home in 5 years, pay for my 2 children through 4 years of college, and be able to retire at 100% of my and my wifes income when she is 55 and I am 61. I think I got my schit together. Well as long as we are gainfully employed that is. But things do come up so lets hope for the best.
Doing this piecemeal so bear with me. I've got kids so I post in between feeding, bathing, clothing and driving.
"And if your whole basis on whether or not student loans are acceptable is to what your salary will be in your 1st 5 years of your career, then you would be an absolute idiot to ever take any on."
I wouldn't base it on a 5 year projection. But there is a cut off. We do have some general knowns about salaries in this industry. You can look those up or talk to people. Take a look at probonos post above. I think he is asking paper or plastic right now. But in general, based on what we do know about salaries I tell people that the cut off for student loans is $75k. JMHO. May vary depending on if you stand a good chance on your wife having a good salary, are ok with a less than average quality of life, have a good shot at a big inheritence, really realy really know business and plan on owning a firm (as a businessman - not architect), think you got the right numbers for powerball, etc. SO it could be a different number depending but definitly not if all you got going for you is AIA salary reports and more than $75k in debt.
"It sounds an awful lot like whining. You are only pointing out the negative on everything, and not acknowledging anything positive. The fact that you keep implying that the only way you could move "up" was to leave the field shows just how correct your decision was for you. Your definition of "up" and how long it takes to get there or anything is not a standard for everyone by any means at all"
Not at all. We know the positives. I love architecture and would never have done it any other way. But you need to move up in a firm within the first ten years or move out and start your own (basically become a small business owner, or move out into related or unrelated fields. With debt over $75k it is most likely moving out and up unless you are part of the lucky 10%. As you can see right now the economy is shedding arch positions. These people will either start their own firms or go somewhere else. As arch firms are not hiring and are not going to start any time soon, except for recent grads, they have very little choice. They need to move out and up. They will find, after being employed by other than architecture firms that the pay and perks are better thann in architecture and will not be returning. These are all generalities. Someone said it best. Your results may vary. But 30-40% of architects are out of work right now. They have to do something. REcessions hit this field every 10-15 years and we shed architects in large numbers. SOme remain and go on but lots move out and up. Again, your results may vary in the end. If you can make it work, great. As always I only ask that people do the math and see if it will work for them. $75k-$150k in debt will not work. Unless you have a source of income outside of architecture like inheritence, wife, lottery.
<i> It was easier in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s to qualify for credit to start a business. Now if you want to start a business, you need to draft up a 100-page business plan, decorate it with fancy graphics and shop it around to venture capital firms who will only partially fund your project and charge you 12% interest on the loan.<i>
montagneux might have a point here. My uncle started his own business in the late 1970's and had told me stories about how difficult it was to start a business in that recession and time of insane high interest rates. And he needed major financing to buy large industrial equipment.
That said, he thinks it's harder to get a small business off the ground today than it was back then. Getting financing is near impossible and well, even my "rich" uncle is unwilling to invest in me, aka, architecture.
Think about how cheap it is to set up an Architecture firm. We gripe about expenses, but insurance, couple seats of Autocad, a used plotter can all be had for a relative bargain compared to setting up something where you need specalized equipment to create goods.
Still, in the current credit environment most of that would need to be self financed since banks are unwilling to take the risk. (I know, I've talked to banks about small business loans.) So say someone saves up a pile of cash for that entprenurial spirit. By the time he/she has enough to start their own firm they've got enough to buy in as partner at an established firm.
And to add to that aqua... in the 1970s and in the 1980s, there wasn't a whole lot of anything in terms of computer-aided drafting.
AutoCAD was invented in 1982? So, a lot of these offices had the luxury of not having any luxury. To start an office in the 1970s and 1980s, all that was needed was the actual office, paper, drafting tables and an assortment of supplies (pens, rulers et cetera).
Even into the late 90s, one could have probably gotten away with all paper office. But for younger people today, it is hard to sell your value (and to say you're skilled) with just paper.
A more "advanced" office would probably have a basic and small model shop attached to it as well.
I can see an obvious niche market in being totally old school. Let's face it-- that's not going to be very competitive or attention grabbing. So, like you said, it's not terribly expensive to set up a small office. It depends on workflow and the kind of products you want to produce.
You could get by for a while on a few desks, some OK computers and AutoCAD. But if you want to do some renders, that bumps up your bottom line.
The biggest issue with setting up a firm is not necessarily equipment. It is rent and salary. A good business financing plan should include about 1.5 years worth of salary for every employee. And that's a pretty huge cost here.
You could probably set up an office for somewhere between 150-250k. At venture capital requirements (10%, 250k), your payments are going to be about 5,000 a month in financing. After that 1.5 year, you're going to probably need another 6,000 a month to cover payroll.
Can a firm be able to bill at least ~75 hours (assuming $150 an hour) a month after a year and a half to stay out of the poor house?
That's the problem here with younger people. You can have all the drive, ambition and passion you want.. but that doesn't translate over to a viable business plan. Nor does having passion or ambition get you magically approved in a loan line.
OTF
"Amazing. Simply amazing. 4 years into your career and you are making 40k. We now have something in common. 4 years after I started I was making 40k. Ten years ago, and I don't have a M.Arch."
I started at around 40k 4 years ago and am making around 40k in this kind of economy and only had to suffer 1 month of unemployment. I would call that a fair trade off considering i have been moving up in the firm steadily since i got here. So if your sarcasm there was intended to imply i am in a bad situation, I dont see how.
I bought a house 3 years ago and am about to move on to a bigger house. I have paid off a decent amount of my student loans, and dont spend my days bitching and whining about salaries and how as an architect i am completely screwed over all the time by everyone else.
But if you want to compare 10 years ago's economy to today's economy and just claim everything equal, good or bad, fine.
"Again sorry for confusing you with montagneux. He/she has no loans for the free schooling from canada. Now he can come to America and try and find a job,same as you, minus the debt of course."
No problem at all, these things happen online. But I am not trying to find a job, so I have no issues with my situation at all.
“I dunno. I feel like I understand money. Proper planning on my part will pay off my home in 5 years, pay for my 2 children through 4 years of college, and be able to retire at 100% of my and my wifes income when she is 55 and I am 61. I think I got my schit together. Well as long as we are gainfully employed that is. But things do come up so lets hope for the best.”
I wasn’t referring to you specifically, because I don’t know your personal situation. I mean in general, as long as you can manage your money, it is not an impossible situation to have student loan debt and be an architect. While it of course makes sense to warn current college students looking to go into architecture to be wary of debt, lets not turn it into such a doomsday situation.
“But in general, based on what we do know about salaries I tell people that the cut off for student loans is $75k. JMHO.”
I would agree with that, $75k is a good cut off number in general. But all those factors you list are not anything specific to architects, they are just general life decisions everyone must make. Architects have career benefits other fields don’t have as well as problems others don’t have. If you are planning on living by yourself forever or being the sole breadwinner and support a family, taking on student loan debt that high is obviously probably not the best move. Then again, neither is buying a fancy car or a hot tub or going out to lunch and dinner every day.
“Again, your results may vary in the end. If you can make it work, great. As always I only ask that people do the math and see if it will work for them. $75k-$150k in debt will not work. Unless you have a source of income outside of architecture like inheritence, wife, lottery.”
I think this is where I may have misinterpreted something you wrote before, and I apologize for that. I had it in my head that you were saying any student loan debt is impossible for an architect and shouldn’t even be considered. My mistake
I agree, student loan debt that high is definitely not that advisable for an architect, and honestly, not really for most fields.
Montagneux
“That's the problem here with younger people. You can have all the drive, ambition and passion you want.. but that doesn't translate over to a viable business plan.”
I think that is a problem not just with younger architects, but architects in general. Most seem to not be good “business” minds, either by their own mistakes or just not having the right background and training, which is also their own mistake.
I was recently part of a larger firm that my current office broke away from who had this type of problem. The guy thought he could become a business man and when the economy was booming, he of course did ok because he threw a lot of money and made problems either go away or not seem that bad. But once the economy went south, it turned into 2+ years of no pay raises, then pay cuts, then layoffs, then more pay cuts, etc, finally before the bank just cut them off completely because they were tired of things. Had there been an actual viable business plan in place, perhaps that company would still be around. (and hopefully my current firm learned enough lessons that we can avoid anything like that)
Congrats to Steven Ward, I agree, it does work! I think there are more success stories out there than you realize. You hear about many firms that don't make it, because those are the 'news' stories. Big layoffs! Firms closing! Company going bankrupt! I know several firms that are quietly plugging along during this recession, keeping people employed, keeping clients happy, and just doing their thing. Yes, the economy stinks, and things are more difficult than ever, but the end is not near. In every recession, there are opportunities. Be ready for the turn around in the economy, and the planning will pay off.
And by the way, architecture firms are incredibly cheap to start compared to most other businesses. You probably already have a computer and software. Start an office in your house, or a garage, or a spare desk space at a client's office. You do not need money to start. You do need clients though!!
"Why anyone in the design field would wait for service work to come their way is beyond me. I have been very facinated by the general lack of developing patents, solutions, Industrial design, from within the Architecture field. There seems to be a historical reference to "masters" the whole FLW persona...and a belief that you should get to do interesting a cool work because you are you."
chupa - i couldn't agree more.... 100% there. everything we're doing proactively this year is focused on creating 'products' to offer up. yes, we're still doing design for fee work, but there absolutely has to be a better mix of income streams for most firms.
i've always though fuseproject (an industrial design firm) has the best approach in terms of income diversification. they shoot for:
1/3 of income from design for fee. this supports 2/3 of the office expenses (or more, but a minimum of 2/3).
1/3 of income from licensing deals - less on the front end (picking up the balance of the 1/3 of operating expenses), but if you get a high selling product, the potential for more income on the backside.
1/3 of income from projects in which they take an equity stake. generally, they do this with a couple of startup companies each year - jawbone (aliph) being the most prominent. they pay for this time out of their other income streams, but the reward for something 'hitting' is vastly higher. this income generates the profit pools for the partners and staff. the jawbone line alone has had them do very, very well...
so, i'm presuming that they keep staffing levels/talent/etc. to match the more 'fixed' fee income they get - the income from the other vehicles is what will generate the most long term income.
interestingly as well - the design for fee work generally has them giving up the intellectual property rights (which makes some sense in their world), so they have some of the same gripes in that regard. yes, they get credit on the patents, but not the income. that's why they've worked hard to do the self-developed work - they get the income on the actual products but also the long term rights, which they could theoretically sell if the product itself fizzles out in the marketplace.
and, yes, that can be transferred to the architecture industry. not as literally, but definitely there are people doing it...
archie (and steven) - we started our firm 5 years ago with less than 10k. one laptop each, a couple of software programs, working out of the house. we took on no debt whatsoever until 2 years ago and that was in an attempt to keep all the staff together after losing almost all of our 4th quarter income due to abrupt project cancellations in the wake of lehman folding (all institutional work no less).
the big thing for us was not to get ahead of ourselves - we still don't own a plotter, we don't have the fanciest offices, and we had a lot of donations from fellow colleagues who were rooting for us to succeed. i'll attribute that to trying to live clean and keep the karma good...
Well... Marm, the only reasoned I prefaced that with "younger" was referencing some earlier posts regarding the general assumption that the younger generation (Gen Y/Late Gen X) doesn't have any drive for responsibility, entrepreneurship or attempting to take bigger roles in the office.
I was just making the points that 1) the money isn't there for us to do our own thing 2) things are drastically more expensive and the game has changed since many older individuals started their entrepreneurial pursuits and 3) why on earth would any of us stick our necks out for little benefit with siphoning off the system and subversion are far easier to do?
And point 3) sounds awfully contentious and selfish. But if things are already incredibly difficult and the money isn't there, I don't call that a lack of drive or whatever cutesy labels "old bastards" have bestowed upon us while they suck the market dry for every ounce of retirement... I call that smart cost-benefit analysis.
I think it is rather unfair to chastise any group for under performing to expectation while continually adding new or strengthening existing barriers to performance. This is a huge part of urban planning is trying to eliminate de jure and de facto barriers so that participation actually has a chance at happening.
I would apply the reasoning behind a lack of drive and a lack of success to a larger group. The reason I didn't is a lot of people in their 30s and 40s do have sizable nest eggs that can be valuable investment tools. Entrepreneurial endeavors are wildly more successful if you have money and assets to back them up. This works even better if you have partners you've worked with for years.
But 25 and starting a firm? HA! Unless the Small Business Administration becomes wildly more active or banks becomes less stingy... no one under 30 is probably going to take any chances any time soon.
I know this because I've wanted to expand my own little business (in a better city). I'd like to expand it even further into headhunting, analysis and planning. Am I going to be able to do that? If I had some money, sure. I'd do it tomorrow.
But the problem with that kind of business is "knowing people." And it takes a lot of money to attend planning meetings, make friends, participate, write articles et cetera. And it is really hard to convince someone that your business model relies on "going to planning meetings" and writing RFPs.
I was just adding that even if you are older, all the drive in the world wont help you when you do not understand how to run a business or have a business sense, which i learned first hand in the example of my recent experience
I disagree with mont. It costs no money to go to planning meetings, make friends, participate, write article. That stuff is everyday life!!! Don't you do all that anyway? don't you make friends because you like people? go to church? Take your kids to soccer? Meet up with old school pals? Chat with the neighbors over the fence? Volunteer at the food bank? Visit with the relatives and their friends? Go to the gym? Tell your dentist about your practice in between rinse and spit?
A profitable business can grow out of cash flow. I started with $1,000, my ancient computer, a roledex and a drafting board in my bedroom. I grew the business to a 30+ firm with no other investment other than the cash the business generated.
"...the general assumption that the younger generation (Gen Y/Late Gen X) doesn't have any drive for responsibility, entrepreneurship or attempting to take bigger roles in the office."
I don't know if that is always true. The last office I worked at didn't really permit the younger staff to have much responsibility...and by younger I am talking from newbie to 10 years experience. All decision, design and management rested solely in the hands of a few associates who had been with the firm for a good 15 or more years and had long gone through the licensing process. There were plenty of staff, myself included, who were ready and willing to accept some true responsibility (i.e. not just serving as the intermediate person between the PM and the interns) but it just wasn't going to happen.
marmkid: I was referring to "I don't call that a lack of drive or whatever cutesy labels "old bastards" have bestowed upon us while they suck the market dry for every ounce of retirement..."
There, but for the grace of 30 years, goes montagneux
Alright, here's the thing - even though Architecture has been hit a bit harder the same complaining always occurs about salary. Just look through the archives here. The numbers people complain about just changes.
The main problem as I see it is students/young employees think that all they have to do is the paint-by-numbers version of being an architect.
graduate - check
get internship - check
fill out checklist - check
become real architect -check
THERE IS NO BUSINESS WHERE YOU GET AHEAD BY GOING ABOUT THINGS THE SAME WAY AS EVERYONE ELSE.
but for some reason we think we are entitled to something, just for following a set path that anyone can do.
and btw Grad school is about developing a specialty that sets you apart from the vast herd that also graduates that year. In other professions/degrees if you don't develop this - you don't really graduate. We do, but it just lands you a standard job, because you don't have anything to set you apart, which again, is your own fault. (sorry, I get sick of hearing about how it SUCH a waste of time)
I mentioned that with barriers. Not just barriers to business (like credit, having assets to borrow against et cetera) but barriers in general. It one thing to fail when given an opportunity to succeed or fail at.
It's another to be blamed for that while not being given any opportunity. It may not necessarily be firm owners or architects in this argument but more so the business community as a whole. It is nothing but article after article about how Gen Y has too much self value, too much self esteem, too much this and too much that. In addition to that, how much they fail at business, cannot be adequate leaders, do not understand this or that.
But I don't see very many organizations reaching out here either. And I certainly don't see many of the government programs that helped older generations get into the positions they are in today doing the same for the younger generation.
And to archie, it does cost moeny to do all of that.
If you only have about $300 a month in disposable income, those things quickly add up. I live in a place where it is nearly impossible to do anything without a car.
Not that any of the municipalities around me have money for public works projects or comprehensive planning, the nearest government office is 9 miles away. The county government is 28 miles away.
So, if I go to one county planning meeting a month and one town planning meeting... the cost of attending such meetings (given IRS estimation of 55 cents a mile) is $40.70. Given the $300 a month in disposable income, that's 13.5% of my fun money.
If we add two full days of volunteering to that (9 miles, plus lunch[$3.00]), $25.80 to help other people. So two planning meetings plus a weekend of volunteering has taken $73.50 or 24.5% of my disposable income.
Throw in a monthly AIA meeting (the next one is 44.7 miles away), That's another $58.17 [including lunch and one beer]. So, one professional meeting, one weekend of volunteering and two planning meetings is now up to $131.67 or 43% of my income.
Networking and being active costs money. A lot of money if you don't have any money. The other things on your list are either bizarre, over step boundaries, assume I am like you or assumes I use every opportunity in my life to sell someone something they more than likely don't need.
it's fairly common to blame the 'old guys' for our ills - especially, in architecture, if you're talking about the aia. it's a pretty universal inclination, overall, among younger generations. just as it is common for older generations to look down on the crazy ways and ideas of the younger generations, chalking it up to inexperience.
winstonsmith assumed above that i've been around long enough to be considered part of the problem, when really i've just got myself in a pretty good situation at a young age.
and then re: the aia - our local chapter pres is in his 30s. our president-elect is a woman probably in her early 30s. we've had older leadership, and young, a pretty good cross-section of those in the profession, really.
i laugh when the aia is blamed - winstonsmith, for instance, assuming that they're a homogenous group all making the wrong decisions for the profession. in fact, it's a pretty heterogeneous group of people, with a diversity of ideas. i'm not sure what makes his the only right ones, and i've yet to be convinced, but getting involved would at least be a way to get these superior ideas heard.
"and btw Grad school is about developing a specialty that sets you apart from the vast herd that also graduates that year. In other professions/degrees if you don't develop this - you don't really graduate. We do, but it just lands you a standard job, because you don't have anything to set you apart, which again, is your own fault. (sorry, I get sick of hearing about how it SUCH a waste of time)"
This is why an M.Arch is basically the same as a B.Arch in most cases, because it is either someone who is coming from a different undergrad degree, so they need to catch up to a B.Arch so they can have an accredited degree, or its someone who went to an unacreditted 4 year school and again need the degree so they can one day sit for their license.
I dont know what the percentages would be, but i think the vast majority isnt using it as a specialty as you say, which really lessens the value of the degree.
quit with your excuses, montie, get an extra job at mickey d's, and hop on the bus to attend your planning meetings. for goodness sake. i've never heard so many whiners and victims!
Disgusting salaries!!
nope, I believe in a person taking responsibility for themselves. People come from the worst most horrific backgrounds and yet manage to be a force of good. That argument for me holds no dice.
ok I'll stop now. I don't want to u turn this thread to unintended territories. you're entitled to your opinion though, i give that respect to anyone.
rereading my post, i don't think i contradicted myself at all. you work on your own, yes, to change your own circumstances within the profession, and then you also work with others in the profession because people working together has more impact than working alone. you have to work at multiple scales - personal, firm, local, profession-at-large, and public-at-large.
listening and making an effort to understand others is critical to what an architect does. it's how we address our client's, users', or stakeholders' goals empathetically.
instead, you're a good word-twister, winstonsmith, manipulating what others' say to correspond to your own world view. congratulations. you'd best get out now.
As if I had anything to do with the "disgusting salaries" before I came on the scene as I just finished getting all licensed up.
It would seem that those who came before are the ones who "individualy" and "collectively" wrecked it for every succeeding generation, no?
And from previous posts I'm pretty sure you are one of those who has had ample time to either fix it or get out of the way Steven, correct me if I am wrong?
So...if actions and results speak louder than words, I think the current state of the profession, and no it didn't just "happen" 2 years ago, will be ample proof enough to demonstrate that your approach Steven, is probably the last approach anyone should muster at this point.
Words are cheap. Show me the money.
"sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand..." -Coolhand Luke
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVXKOb5EE7Y
pshh i was making 50k as an intern. im not an engineer because engineering is extremely boring
boring like thinking and stuff...I know...how annoying!
what would you like shown, winston? we've got a growing office of people (12 right now) who have all been with us for at least 3 yrs.
during this downturn, we've worked hard to keep our workload and we've had NO layoffs. though we've had work, we haven't felt it's stable/consistent enough that we can commit to the next hire this year: we don't want to be a hire-and-fire firm. when we hire, we commit. so we've been working with some sole practitioners, hiring them to carry some of the work and filling in their gaps.
we encourage everyone in our office to participate in community activities, aia, csi, local chambers of commerce, and we send them for training and to various conferences in which they can connect with people beyond the profession. we have pool parties and cookouts together and, beyond that, several of the staff hang together after hours and on weekends just because they're friends.
i actually haven't been in a position of leadership very long. i was hired from my solo-practice in 2005 with the stated goal of not running the business, but things have evolved differently than planned (a good thing) and i was just made a partner in 2009.
i could be wrong, but it feels like it's working.
a good question right now would be
what are people doing
now that they don't have a job in a firm
and they want to become future architects
me:
tried to get a job
any where
had to much college
so
i became a substitute
because the school district
was the only place that would hire me.
i drew in class while the kids were doing work
and then a gallery owner
approached me about my drawings
and they are now being displayed
we've heard from ATR
what's everyone else doing up to
congrats Steven, how does it feel to be the exception?
I'm seriously saying congratulations, (if true) that is wonderful that you and your fortunate staff are beating the odds!
There are always exceptions to every rule and that is wonderful.
I just finished my MArch and am starting two companies. One doing what I was doing 9 years ago when I decided to go to school for architecture, web / graphic design (which had just had its bubble popped and no jobs in the field) and another as a research outfit for doing competitions and cross discipline collaborations....my tinkering self needs an outlet for competitions, research, and just curious investigation into everything from nano materials, linux servers, arduino boards, zigbee interfaces, mesh networks...and on and on.
Why anyone in the design field would wait for service work to come their way is beyond me. I have been very facinated by the general lack of developing patents, solutions, Industrial design, from within the Architecture field. There seems to be a historical reference to "masters" the whole FLW persona...and a belief that you should get to do interesting a cool work because you are you.
Well I for one am not waiting and instead will be the place where firms have to go to solve problems they are ill prepared to engage. The future is now and you can either be part of creating it or standing on the sidelines. The internet is far more ground breaking than the car, I believe, as is the development of the digital world. Imagine the car 10 to 15 years after its inception...it was still a baby...a mere flash of what it would become. The digital world is in its infancy and there is much more opportunity than many will ever know. 20 years from now there will be lots people going, why didn't I do something back when this was all so new.
ATR is correct. If what you know doesn't make your way...you had better get to learning more.
In the month since I have graduated I have picked up some content management systems, Silverstripe, Texapattern, Drupal...got back into running Linux scripts from the terminal...and refamiliarized myself with jquery, tweener, processing...etc. As far as I am concerned the lack of jobs is sort of a blessing as there is time to equip oneself for a much longer trajectory.
And guess what...I will not be sucking up in hopes of landing some cad monkey work for $10 an hour tops. Fuck that. Instead I plan on making money from my skillset...web, graphics, teaching classes to professionals in anything from cs4 to rhino to max to GIS etc.
If you are waiting for someone to come give you 6- 10% of their project...you might be waiting for awhile. Me, I plan on being my own client...I have much too large of a skillset to sit by making a pittance in hopes of being someones underpaid lackey...if paid at all.
Unpaid internships are a whole other thing...that element of this profession trends towards the same ego driven bullshit that one must suffer because those before us did. Bite me. Taking advantage of someone is taking advantage of someone. I empathize with those who feel like their backs are against the wall and that that is one of the few options they have. Screw anyone willing to abuse someone elses value that way and forge out on your own and do the things you have always dreamed of...as they say..."you only live once"
With that...I have forgone caring at all about getting licensed. I want to get stuff built. Web sites, furniture, research, architecture...do do do. There is no time for anything else. Find partners who share your aspirations and start making it happen with every odd hour you have in the day. Give up TV...posting all day, video games, etc...and get to work.
chupacabra is the best forum name I have heard in a long time...and he/she/ it makes a lot of sense. GO get 'em tiger, show that IT world who the real architects are!
Thanks copper_top et.al. for the info. It's hard to accurately gauge cost-of-living budget sometimes without having first hand experience...I find the online calculators to not always be the most accurate tools, esp because it seems like Architecture jobs pretty much pay the same regardless of what city you live in.
I have to agree with on the fence about the commute. Anything more than about 45 minutes is too much. I'm unwilling to give up gym and running time to sit on a train for 2+ hours.
OTF
"Aparently you are just one of those people happy to be strapped with an almost redictardufukinlous amount of student debt compared to salary. To each his own. If you can make that work out I imagine, and this is another assumption, that your spouse works a full time gig as well."
Again, if your entire view on everything is first to be negative, then you will always find something else to bitch and moan about
Yes, i would prefer to have no student loan debt at all. But i made my choices for a number of reasons, and feel that what i gained is worth far more than the amount of debt i have. I make around 40k since i graduated almost 4 years ago.
And if your whole basis on whether or not student loans are acceptable is to what your salary will be in your 1st 5 years of your career, then you would be an absolute idiot to ever take any on.
I feel that i will not be peaking salary-wise in my first couple years of work. And given where i am now compared to where i was when i started, I am as certain as possible that i made the right decision.
I am not sure what my wife and her career has to do with anything, unless it is more complaining about how some architects arent lucky enough to have a spouse with a job? If you could elaborate on that a bit more, maybe i misunderstood?
She is not paying for everything, like you seem to be implying, which is again completely absurd to think that the only way an architect can survive is by having others pay for everything.
Do you have any idea at all how to manage money? It sounds like you dont
"And I'm not whinning. I am trying to educate those entering this field. I could certainly have stayed in it if I wanted to but chose to move upwards instead. My student loan was only about $15,000 so you can imagine how long it took for me to get back positive"
It sounds an awful lot like whining. You are only pointing out the negative on everything, and not acknowledging anything positive. The fact that you keep implying that the only way you could move "up" was to leave the field shows just how correct your decision was for you. Your definition of "up" and how long it takes to get there or anything is not a standard for everyone by any means at all
Reading your posts, I see very little reason to really believe you when you say that you are only trying to "educate" anyone.
There are ways to move "up" as an architect, even in today's climate. I have been doing it for 4 years now and am not stopping any time soon. It is not this impossible task some like to make it out to be.
Winston
"boring like thinking and stuff...I know...how annoying!"
If you weren't thinking when you were an architect, you were either doing something wrong or in the wrong place
That is no one's fault but your own...and certainly not the AIA's
Thom Mayne is a nobody. I couldn't care less what he thinks. In fact, reality is most likely the opposite of what a sycophant like him thinks.
Now, perhaps if he puts his family first I might care...but I highly doubt that he puts his family before architecture and the pursuit of fame and fortune. At least its reasonable to suspect as much based on precedent.
omigod. the thought just dawned on me that our lovely winston may have children. i am *almost* willing to donate to their therapy fund starting now.
working on finishing my masters this may. ive been laid off for 16 months for a firm... cant find a lousy drafting job to save my life! i am currently working at safeway as a cashier... and this May I will have to start paying off my 120k nut plus interest. lets do some basic math... 30 years plus interest = just over half a million dollars... i'll be 55 years old by then... if i ever live to see that day with all this stress!
paper or plastic?
i love my life.
I'm too lazy to read the responses so I will reply to the post, disregarding the responses.
I think - - and my peers have said this as well - - architecture & interior design is a career built on passion, more on anything. I don't think there is an architect who expects to be like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs or to be part of the Forbes list to begin with. Times like this, it is damn impractical to hold on to our ideals and passions but sometimes, there is just this inexplicable joy that you feel when you see something you've put so much hard work on (and lost so much sleep over) right there before your eyes. I'm an architecture graduate who has chosen to go into interior architecture and have spent a great deal amount working and on some very interesting projects. The process came with enormous amounts of conflicts, heartaches, stress and hair pulling...Days ago, I saw photos of the project on a website and there was this inexplicable joy in my chest. Boy o boy, I was not well compensated for the job, nor do I get any credit for that - - but knowing, just knowing I did something for that project was reward itself.
Anyway, I'm having quite a challenge looking for a job. Ha ha ha. Whenever I read features on great buildings and great spaces, I KNOW and I still want to work in this field, but when reality hits me (like the pay and the opportunities), I second guess myself and want to hit my head on a wall then again, I can't really imagine myself doing anything else or something NOT related to it...Construction & Project management included :P
Am I a friggin loser for saying that??? LOL. Delusional, maybe.
Difference between a lawyer and an architect:
The lawyer adapts his hourly wage to his lifestyle.
The architect is expected to adapt his lifestyle to his hourly wage.
probono: "this May I will have to start paying off my 120k nut"
I had two thoughts when reading the above quote a) OMG, are you mad?, and b) OMG, you're so screwed!
Truly, I wish you well in dealing with that commitment. But I hope other students (and faculty) here are paying close attention to the downside of massive student debt. It has a draining impact on your life long after the fun of college becomes a distant memory.
marmkid,
"Yes, i would prefer to have no student loan debt at all. But i made my choices for a number of reasons, and feel that what i gained is worth far more than the amount of debt i have. I make around 40k since i graduated almost 4 "
Amazing. Simply amazing. 4 years into your career and you are making 40k. We now have something in common. 4 years after I started I was making 40k. Ten years ago, and I don't have a M.Arch.
So good on you my internet buddy.
But again I didn't leave with $65k in debt. Come talk to me again after ten years when you are making $55K and still haven't paid off your loans.
How is that for being positive?
Again sorry for confusing you with montagneux. He/she has no loans for the free schooling from canada. Now he can come to America and try and find a job,same as you, minus the debt of course.
Sure, a clever bit of writing but it has little basis in reality. I know many law firms that have had massive layoffs over the past 18 months and many lawyers that have little to do - they're suffering in this recession too. Even in good times, lawyers are subject to market forces just like architects.
Marmkid,
"Do you have any idea at all how to manage money? It sounds like you dont"
I dunno. I feel like I understand money. Proper planning on my part will pay off my home in 5 years, pay for my 2 children through 4 years of college, and be able to retire at 100% of my and my wifes income when she is 55 and I am 61. I think I got my schit together. Well as long as we are gainfully employed that is. But things do come up so lets hope for the best.
markid,
Doing this piecemeal so bear with me. I've got kids so I post in between feeding, bathing, clothing and driving.
"And if your whole basis on whether or not student loans are acceptable is to what your salary will be in your 1st 5 years of your career, then you would be an absolute idiot to ever take any on."
I wouldn't base it on a 5 year projection. But there is a cut off. We do have some general knowns about salaries in this industry. You can look those up or talk to people. Take a look at probonos post above. I think he is asking paper or plastic right now. But in general, based on what we do know about salaries I tell people that the cut off for student loans is $75k. JMHO. May vary depending on if you stand a good chance on your wife having a good salary, are ok with a less than average quality of life, have a good shot at a big inheritence, really realy really know business and plan on owning a firm (as a businessman - not architect), think you got the right numbers for powerball, etc. SO it could be a different number depending but definitly not if all you got going for you is AIA salary reports and more than $75k in debt.
"It sounds an awful lot like whining. You are only pointing out the negative on everything, and not acknowledging anything positive. The fact that you keep implying that the only way you could move "up" was to leave the field shows just how correct your decision was for you. Your definition of "up" and how long it takes to get there or anything is not a standard for everyone by any means at all"
Not at all. We know the positives. I love architecture and would never have done it any other way. But you need to move up in a firm within the first ten years or move out and start your own (basically become a small business owner, or move out into related or unrelated fields. With debt over $75k it is most likely moving out and up unless you are part of the lucky 10%. As you can see right now the economy is shedding arch positions. These people will either start their own firms or go somewhere else. As arch firms are not hiring and are not going to start any time soon, except for recent grads, they have very little choice. They need to move out and up. They will find, after being employed by other than architecture firms that the pay and perks are better thann in architecture and will not be returning. These are all generalities. Someone said it best. Your results may vary. But 30-40% of architects are out of work right now. They have to do something. REcessions hit this field every 10-15 years and we shed architects in large numbers. SOme remain and go on but lots move out and up. Again, your results may vary in the end. If you can make it work, great. As always I only ask that people do the math and see if it will work for them. $75k-$150k in debt will not work. Unless you have a source of income outside of architecture like inheritence, wife, lottery.
Sorry but time to drive the princess to school. ;)
<i> It was easier in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s to qualify for credit to start a business. Now if you want to start a business, you need to draft up a 100-page business plan, decorate it with fancy graphics and shop it around to venture capital firms who will only partially fund your project and charge you 12% interest on the loan.<i>
montagneux might have a point here. My uncle started his own business in the late 1970's and had told me stories about how difficult it was to start a business in that recession and time of insane high interest rates. And he needed major financing to buy large industrial equipment.
That said, he thinks it's harder to get a small business off the ground today than it was back then. Getting financing is near impossible and well, even my "rich" uncle is unwilling to invest in me, aka, architecture.
Think about how cheap it is to set up an Architecture firm. We gripe about expenses, but insurance, couple seats of Autocad, a used plotter can all be had for a relative bargain compared to setting up something where you need specalized equipment to create goods.
Still, in the current credit environment most of that would need to be self financed since banks are unwilling to take the risk. (I know, I've talked to banks about small business loans.) So say someone saves up a pile of cash for that entprenurial spirit. By the time he/she has enough to start their own firm they've got enough to buy in as partner at an established firm.
And to add to that aqua... in the 1970s and in the 1980s, there wasn't a whole lot of anything in terms of computer-aided drafting.
AutoCAD was invented in 1982? So, a lot of these offices had the luxury of not having any luxury. To start an office in the 1970s and 1980s, all that was needed was the actual office, paper, drafting tables and an assortment of supplies (pens, rulers et cetera).
Even into the late 90s, one could have probably gotten away with all paper office. But for younger people today, it is hard to sell your value (and to say you're skilled) with just paper.
A more "advanced" office would probably have a basic and small model shop attached to it as well.
I can see an obvious niche market in being totally old school. Let's face it-- that's not going to be very competitive or attention grabbing. So, like you said, it's not terribly expensive to set up a small office. It depends on workflow and the kind of products you want to produce.
You could get by for a while on a few desks, some OK computers and AutoCAD. But if you want to do some renders, that bumps up your bottom line.
The biggest issue with setting up a firm is not necessarily equipment. It is rent and salary. A good business financing plan should include about 1.5 years worth of salary for every employee. And that's a pretty huge cost here.
You could probably set up an office for somewhere between 150-250k. At venture capital requirements (10%, 250k), your payments are going to be about 5,000 a month in financing. After that 1.5 year, you're going to probably need another 6,000 a month to cover payroll.
Can a firm be able to bill at least ~75 hours (assuming $150 an hour) a month after a year and a half to stay out of the poor house?
That's the problem here with younger people. You can have all the drive, ambition and passion you want.. but that doesn't translate over to a viable business plan. Nor does having passion or ambition get you magically approved in a loan line.
OTF
"Amazing. Simply amazing. 4 years into your career and you are making 40k. We now have something in common. 4 years after I started I was making 40k. Ten years ago, and I don't have a M.Arch."
I started at around 40k 4 years ago and am making around 40k in this kind of economy and only had to suffer 1 month of unemployment. I would call that a fair trade off considering i have been moving up in the firm steadily since i got here. So if your sarcasm there was intended to imply i am in a bad situation, I dont see how.
I bought a house 3 years ago and am about to move on to a bigger house. I have paid off a decent amount of my student loans, and dont spend my days bitching and whining about salaries and how as an architect i am completely screwed over all the time by everyone else.
But if you want to compare 10 years ago's economy to today's economy and just claim everything equal, good or bad, fine.
"Again sorry for confusing you with montagneux. He/she has no loans for the free schooling from canada. Now he can come to America and try and find a job,same as you, minus the debt of course."
No problem at all, these things happen online. But I am not trying to find a job, so I have no issues with my situation at all.
“I dunno. I feel like I understand money. Proper planning on my part will pay off my home in 5 years, pay for my 2 children through 4 years of college, and be able to retire at 100% of my and my wifes income when she is 55 and I am 61. I think I got my schit together. Well as long as we are gainfully employed that is. But things do come up so lets hope for the best.”
I wasn’t referring to you specifically, because I don’t know your personal situation. I mean in general, as long as you can manage your money, it is not an impossible situation to have student loan debt and be an architect. While it of course makes sense to warn current college students looking to go into architecture to be wary of debt, lets not turn it into such a doomsday situation.
“But in general, based on what we do know about salaries I tell people that the cut off for student loans is $75k. JMHO.”
I would agree with that, $75k is a good cut off number in general. But all those factors you list are not anything specific to architects, they are just general life decisions everyone must make. Architects have career benefits other fields don’t have as well as problems others don’t have. If you are planning on living by yourself forever or being the sole breadwinner and support a family, taking on student loan debt that high is obviously probably not the best move. Then again, neither is buying a fancy car or a hot tub or going out to lunch and dinner every day.
“Again, your results may vary in the end. If you can make it work, great. As always I only ask that people do the math and see if it will work for them. $75k-$150k in debt will not work. Unless you have a source of income outside of architecture like inheritence, wife, lottery.”
I think this is where I may have misinterpreted something you wrote before, and I apologize for that. I had it in my head that you were saying any student loan debt is impossible for an architect and shouldn’t even be considered. My mistake
I agree, student loan debt that high is definitely not that advisable for an architect, and honestly, not really for most fields.
Montagneux
“That's the problem here with younger people. You can have all the drive, ambition and passion you want.. but that doesn't translate over to a viable business plan.”
I think that is a problem not just with younger architects, but architects in general. Most seem to not be good “business” minds, either by their own mistakes or just not having the right background and training, which is also their own mistake.
I was recently part of a larger firm that my current office broke away from who had this type of problem. The guy thought he could become a business man and when the economy was booming, he of course did ok because he threw a lot of money and made problems either go away or not seem that bad. But once the economy went south, it turned into 2+ years of no pay raises, then pay cuts, then layoffs, then more pay cuts, etc, finally before the bank just cut them off completely because they were tired of things. Had there been an actual viable business plan in place, perhaps that company would still be around. (and hopefully my current firm learned enough lessons that we can avoid anything like that)
Congrats to Steven Ward, I agree, it does work! I think there are more success stories out there than you realize. You hear about many firms that don't make it, because those are the 'news' stories. Big layoffs! Firms closing! Company going bankrupt! I know several firms that are quietly plugging along during this recession, keeping people employed, keeping clients happy, and just doing their thing. Yes, the economy stinks, and things are more difficult than ever, but the end is not near. In every recession, there are opportunities. Be ready for the turn around in the economy, and the planning will pay off.
And by the way, architecture firms are incredibly cheap to start compared to most other businesses. You probably already have a computer and software. Start an office in your house, or a garage, or a spare desk space at a client's office. You do not need money to start. You do need clients though!!
"Why anyone in the design field would wait for service work to come their way is beyond me. I have been very facinated by the general lack of developing patents, solutions, Industrial design, from within the Architecture field. There seems to be a historical reference to "masters" the whole FLW persona...and a belief that you should get to do interesting a cool work because you are you."
chupa - i couldn't agree more.... 100% there. everything we're doing proactively this year is focused on creating 'products' to offer up. yes, we're still doing design for fee work, but there absolutely has to be a better mix of income streams for most firms.
i've always though fuseproject (an industrial design firm) has the best approach in terms of income diversification. they shoot for:
1/3 of income from design for fee. this supports 2/3 of the office expenses (or more, but a minimum of 2/3).
1/3 of income from licensing deals - less on the front end (picking up the balance of the 1/3 of operating expenses), but if you get a high selling product, the potential for more income on the backside.
1/3 of income from projects in which they take an equity stake. generally, they do this with a couple of startup companies each year - jawbone (aliph) being the most prominent. they pay for this time out of their other income streams, but the reward for something 'hitting' is vastly higher. this income generates the profit pools for the partners and staff. the jawbone line alone has had them do very, very well...
so, i'm presuming that they keep staffing levels/talent/etc. to match the more 'fixed' fee income they get - the income from the other vehicles is what will generate the most long term income.
interestingly as well - the design for fee work generally has them giving up the intellectual property rights (which makes some sense in their world), so they have some of the same gripes in that regard. yes, they get credit on the patents, but not the income. that's why they've worked hard to do the self-developed work - they get the income on the actual products but also the long term rights, which they could theoretically sell if the product itself fizzles out in the marketplace.
and, yes, that can be transferred to the architecture industry. not as literally, but definitely there are people doing it...
archie (and steven) - we started our firm 5 years ago with less than 10k. one laptop each, a couple of software programs, working out of the house. we took on no debt whatsoever until 2 years ago and that was in an attempt to keep all the staff together after losing almost all of our 4th quarter income due to abrupt project cancellations in the wake of lehman folding (all institutional work no less).
the big thing for us was not to get ahead of ourselves - we still don't own a plotter, we don't have the fanciest offices, and we had a lot of donations from fellow colleagues who were rooting for us to succeed. i'll attribute that to trying to live clean and keep the karma good...
Well... Marm, the only reasoned I prefaced that with "younger" was referencing some earlier posts regarding the general assumption that the younger generation (Gen Y/Late Gen X) doesn't have any drive for responsibility, entrepreneurship or attempting to take bigger roles in the office.
I was just making the points that 1) the money isn't there for us to do our own thing 2) things are drastically more expensive and the game has changed since many older individuals started their entrepreneurial pursuits and 3) why on earth would any of us stick our necks out for little benefit with siphoning off the system and subversion are far easier to do?
And point 3) sounds awfully contentious and selfish. But if things are already incredibly difficult and the money isn't there, I don't call that a lack of drive or whatever cutesy labels "old bastards" have bestowed upon us while they suck the market dry for every ounce of retirement... I call that smart cost-benefit analysis.
I think it is rather unfair to chastise any group for under performing to expectation while continually adding new or strengthening existing barriers to performance. This is a huge part of urban planning is trying to eliminate de jure and de facto barriers so that participation actually has a chance at happening.
I would apply the reasoning behind a lack of drive and a lack of success to a larger group. The reason I didn't is a lot of people in their 30s and 40s do have sizable nest eggs that can be valuable investment tools. Entrepreneurial endeavors are wildly more successful if you have money and assets to back them up. This works even better if you have partners you've worked with for years.
But 25 and starting a firm? HA! Unless the Small Business Administration becomes wildly more active or banks becomes less stingy... no one under 30 is probably going to take any chances any time soon.
I know this because I've wanted to expand my own little business (in a better city). I'd like to expand it even further into headhunting, analysis and planning. Am I going to be able to do that? If I had some money, sure. I'd do it tomorrow.
But the problem with that kind of business is "knowing people." And it takes a lot of money to attend planning meetings, make friends, participate, write articles et cetera. And it is really hard to convince someone that your business model relies on "going to planning meetings" and writing RFPs.
oh i agree with you mont
I was just adding that even if you are older, all the drive in the world wont help you when you do not understand how to run a business or have a business sense, which i learned first hand in the example of my recent experience
Ah ... we're back to the "generation wars" ... wondered how long that would take.
i dont think its a generation war
personally, I think all generations of architects havent been the best "businessmen", which has hurt the profession
I disagree with mont. It costs no money to go to planning meetings, make friends, participate, write article. That stuff is everyday life!!! Don't you do all that anyway? don't you make friends because you like people? go to church? Take your kids to soccer? Meet up with old school pals? Chat with the neighbors over the fence? Volunteer at the food bank? Visit with the relatives and their friends? Go to the gym? Tell your dentist about your practice in between rinse and spit?
A profitable business can grow out of cash flow. I started with $1,000, my ancient computer, a roledex and a drafting board in my bedroom. I grew the business to a 30+ firm with no other investment other than the cash the business generated.
"...the general assumption that the younger generation (Gen Y/Late Gen X) doesn't have any drive for responsibility, entrepreneurship or attempting to take bigger roles in the office."
I don't know if that is always true. The last office I worked at didn't really permit the younger staff to have much responsibility...and by younger I am talking from newbie to 10 years experience. All decision, design and management rested solely in the hands of a few associates who had been with the firm for a good 15 or more years and had long gone through the licensing process. There were plenty of staff, myself included, who were ready and willing to accept some true responsibility (i.e. not just serving as the intermediate person between the PM and the interns) but it just wasn't going to happen.
marmkid: I was referring to "I don't call that a lack of drive or whatever cutesy labels "old bastards" have bestowed upon us while they suck the market dry for every ounce of retirement..."
There, but for the grace of 30 years, goes montagneux
ah, ok
gotcha
Alright, here's the thing - even though Architecture has been hit a bit harder the same complaining always occurs about salary. Just look through the archives here. The numbers people complain about just changes.
The main problem as I see it is students/young employees think that all they have to do is the paint-by-numbers version of being an architect.
graduate - check
get internship - check
fill out checklist - check
become real architect -check
THERE IS NO BUSINESS WHERE YOU GET AHEAD BY GOING ABOUT THINGS THE SAME WAY AS EVERYONE ELSE.
but for some reason we think we are entitled to something, just for following a set path that anyone can do.
and btw Grad school is about developing a specialty that sets you apart from the vast herd that also graduates that year. In other professions/degrees if you don't develop this - you don't really graduate. We do, but it just lands you a standard job, because you don't have anything to set you apart, which again, is your own fault. (sorry, I get sick of hearing about how it SUCH a waste of time)
.-.--..-.-.--..--.--.-.-.-.--.,
I mentioned that with barriers. Not just barriers to business (like credit, having assets to borrow against et cetera) but barriers in general. It one thing to fail when given an opportunity to succeed or fail at.
It's another to be blamed for that while not being given any opportunity. It may not necessarily be firm owners or architects in this argument but more so the business community as a whole. It is nothing but article after article about how Gen Y has too much self value, too much self esteem, too much this and too much that. In addition to that, how much they fail at business, cannot be adequate leaders, do not understand this or that.
But I don't see very many organizations reaching out here either. And I certainly don't see many of the government programs that helped older generations get into the positions they are in today doing the same for the younger generation.
And to archie, it does cost moeny to do all of that.
If you only have about $300 a month in disposable income, those things quickly add up. I live in a place where it is nearly impossible to do anything without a car.
Not that any of the municipalities around me have money for public works projects or comprehensive planning, the nearest government office is 9 miles away. The county government is 28 miles away.
So, if I go to one county planning meeting a month and one town planning meeting... the cost of attending such meetings (given IRS estimation of 55 cents a mile) is $40.70. Given the $300 a month in disposable income, that's 13.5% of my fun money.
If we add two full days of volunteering to that (9 miles, plus lunch[$3.00]), $25.80 to help other people. So two planning meetings plus a weekend of volunteering has taken $73.50 or 24.5% of my disposable income.
Throw in a monthly AIA meeting (the next one is 44.7 miles away), That's another $58.17 [including lunch and one beer]. So, one professional meeting, one weekend of volunteering and two planning meetings is now up to $131.67 or 43% of my income.
Networking and being active costs money. A lot of money if you don't have any money. The other things on your list are either bizarre, over step boundaries, assume I am like you or assumes I use every opportunity in my life to sell someone something they more than likely don't need.
it's fairly common to blame the 'old guys' for our ills - especially, in architecture, if you're talking about the aia. it's a pretty universal inclination, overall, among younger generations. just as it is common for older generations to look down on the crazy ways and ideas of the younger generations, chalking it up to inexperience.
winstonsmith assumed above that i've been around long enough to be considered part of the problem, when really i've just got myself in a pretty good situation at a young age.
and then re: the aia - our local chapter pres is in his 30s. our president-elect is a woman probably in her early 30s. we've had older leadership, and young, a pretty good cross-section of those in the profession, really.
i laugh when the aia is blamed - winstonsmith, for instance, assuming that they're a homogenous group all making the wrong decisions for the profession. in fact, it's a pretty heterogeneous group of people, with a diversity of ideas. i'm not sure what makes his the only right ones, and i've yet to be convinced, but getting involved would at least be a way to get these superior ideas heard.
"and btw Grad school is about developing a specialty that sets you apart from the vast herd that also graduates that year. In other professions/degrees if you don't develop this - you don't really graduate. We do, but it just lands you a standard job, because you don't have anything to set you apart, which again, is your own fault. (sorry, I get sick of hearing about how it SUCH a waste of time)"
This is why an M.Arch is basically the same as a B.Arch in most cases, because it is either someone who is coming from a different undergrad degree, so they need to catch up to a B.Arch so they can have an accredited degree, or its someone who went to an unacreditted 4 year school and again need the degree so they can one day sit for their license.
I dont know what the percentages would be, but i think the vast majority isnt using it as a specialty as you say, which really lessens the value of the degree.
thats a great point, Fake
quit with your excuses, montie, get an extra job at mickey d's, and hop on the bus to attend your planning meetings. for goodness sake. i've never heard so many whiners and victims!
reading some of the posts around here, we are all victims and it is everyone else's fault but our own
reading some of the posts around here, we are all victims and it is everyone else's fault but our own
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