i'm a new m.arch grad considering taking a corporate job because none of the fancy architects have expressed any interest in me. the corporate firm that offered me a job is actually pretty good and is doing some interesting large international projects, even if their aesthetic isn't outstanding and their work not intellectually challenging. but if i do that, will it set me on a path that it's hard to get off of? will it be hard to leave that path and go back to fancy designers & quasi-starchitects, or back to academia? should i hold out, work on my portfolio for a few months, try again at the places i'd really like to work? i'll be okay financially even if im unemployed for a few more months... after that it'll get dicey. thanks!
as someone who has work to 10 years in 7 firms of big and small names, i think you really need to ask yourself that question.
first, there are just as much to learn on a boring 5 story brick building as some hi-end 100 story twisty office towers you see only in renderings.
Form my experience people who does only hi-profile buildings for starkitects never really learn the basics of construction, the business end of architecture or contacts negotiation etc. I know because I was one of them earliy in my career and it simply wasn't enough to fulfill what I want out of architecture. It took my 2 years to get sick of drawing pretty picture but never smelled that freshly poured concrete, or understand how complex it is for the contractors to orchestrate on the site.
If i had a chance to do it all over again, i would consider firms that actually have a track record of getting buildings build. In 5 years you'll learn an incredible amount of knowledge surpassing any of your unenlightened peers who can draw curves. And if you are a designer at heart, you would actually know how to implement your own crazy designs with your own practice.
a job is just a job, until you can make your own design decisions, you are only doing what they tell you or imitating designs of those starkitects.
Now the question is what type of architect you want to be?
Take the job, it will help you to know what to do next.
I have worked just for two starchitects before going corporate early this year.
In both offices I had jobmates with +5/+10 years experience who have worked for small boutique or big corporate practices for most of their career.
Let's say in a few years time you want to work for a "starachitect". They will probably appreciate that you have had contact with construction, technical details and a less "diva" working environment. Personally I was quite shocked how (in both offices) many many of my jobmates have been swapping "starchitects" all the time, making really crazy combinations (opposite styles let's say). Working with "egos" is not easy, most probably you'll have a better chance to get a job in a starachitect office later if you have a good record of humble hard-working construction experience. Obviously not doing single-family houses in Neo-Mexican style, but working for SOM or sth. like that.
At the end Zaha Hadid or Libeskind projects have to built as well... and there is only one starchitect in the office... the rest have to work to make those ideas technically possible.
Thank you very much for the thoughtful responses, espcially niro.
I guess I'm maybe looking at things the wrong way. Maybe I'm frightfully superficial. I've been more worried about finding somewhere to work that has a known name is perceived as cool by those in the industry rather than somewhere that is necessarily the best place to learn.
It's just really frustrating that coming from a fancy school, having a decent amount of work experience, and being an intelligent person, I can't even get any of the well-known firms (starchitects or mid-level starchitects) to offer me any job whatsoever, even a frighteningly low-paying one (i.e. an internship that a student should be getting).
I guess maybe I don't have the design and graphical skills that these places are looking for.
And so, corporate it is. I'm sure I can learn a lot there about what it takes to be an architect - but I'd prefer something that is actually intellectually challenging rather than just delivering a successful building that meets the client's needs.
Constraints are design opportunities. One can design with mechanisms such as the specifications, or procurement schedules.
Most of what the big name firms produce is glossy lipstick, and even that gets detailed and spec'd by consultants or an architect of record. The innovation is actually merely propaganda and image making.
Corporate firms at least will push you to get very technical very quickly, which is more valuable than being ace at photoshop if you eventually decide to strike out on your own.
I say turn down the job so they can give it to someone who will be thrilled and proud to work there. No one wants an employee who feels they have "settled". If you can't get past your snobbishness ('fancy' architects??? give me a break...) and be proud to be part of this firm, let the job go to someone who can.
"I'd prefer something that is actually intellectually challenging rather than just delivering a successful building that meets the client's needs."
Do you really think working for an "fancy" architect is to be intellectual? I don't think so.
You wouldn't even have time to think yourself and read some valuable books rendering their fancy designs all day long.
Then, how could you be intellectual or creative?
Being their "apostle" doesn't mean you become intellectual.
Also ds96, you need to realize that as a new grad, you know virtually nothing about building. It is actually amusing that you don't even realize how difficult, and how intellectually challenging it is to design a building that is "successful". Of course, by design I am including figuring out how to make sure the water stays out, the thing is buildable, it lasts a long time, fits in the clients budget, meets building codes, is properly detailed, is responsible and sustainable, uses minimal energy.... You know, all that practical stuff that your narrow view of the practice of architecture doesn't even know exists. I guess the only challenge your intellect will accept is thinking about quasi- architects dreams.
Seriously, I know you are young and inexperienced, and "idealistic". I can see the charm of the idea that you could sit around and "intellectualize" about what makes spiffy architecture, scoffing at low budget projects. But I also hope you can see the viewpoint of the large percentage of practitioners out there getting lots of intellectual stimulation and satisfaction by just doing their jobs really really well. It is truly rewarding on many levels to complete a successful project that meets the clients needs. You can make a real, huge difference in people's lives. It does not have to be published in a design review book to have put a roof over the head of a homeless veteran, or helped a family accommodate the needs of their disabled daughter, or improved medical care for people with Alzheimer's.
I am sorry, If my post looks a little harsh.
Thinking you have a job in this economy, you may be a talented person.
Don't let your opportunity go away.
I'm sorry, I haven't read the whole thread, but I did read niro's post and agree with it. Look at it this way: learn how to build a building, and in 5 years you'll be in demand at the boutique firms where they have plenty of fresh grads to render but no knowledge of getting the thing out into the world!
Just be careful not to let the firm stick you in a rendering cubicle where you're not learning anything.
Yes, I think you should wait for the starchitect position, and post the name of the firm that was interested in hiring you here so that someone who does not feel like it is a second rate position can apply.
You probably won't be happy there, and if you have the financial means to stay unemployed, you should take one for the team and let the job go to someone who needs to start paying off their college loans or they will become homeless.
Why on EARTH would you not take a job right not ESPECIALLY if you're fresh out of school???
If you feel like you are too good for a corporate firm you need a serious reality check. Don't think that you shit raspberry sherbert. You need to thank the lucky stars you were even offered a job to begin with especially when many of your colleages have found no such luck.
Another thing I want to add to this is that corporate firms aren't bad. Many of them have high-end designers who have made life-long careers out of working in corporate firms. In addition there are also a lt of advantages in working at a corporate firm -- the pay is reasonably better, the benefits are great, and architects around the world tend to know those names better when you get interviewed in the future when you move on.
And keep in mind that many of these corporate firms crank out some incredible work. I also happen to know a lot of starchitects that run sweat-shops.
I guess maybe I don't have the design and graphical skills that these places are looking for.
Re-read this. Are you REALLY defining the quality of your designs by whether or not some starchitect office wants to hire you?! You have absolutely no clue what goes into any of those hiring decisions. This sounds like someone who defines her self-worth by the fact that she got accepted into Harvard -- and not through pride in any of the work that she produced while there. Is there worth to Rothko's work, even though everyone who looks at it says "I could paint that -- why is he an artist?!" Of course there is.
I'm not saying you're a Rothko, (I have no idea) but you need to take pride in your work and in yourself and don't let your perception of what some obscure third-party possibly might MAYBE think of you affect your perception of the quality of your own work. You know if your work is good or not. Move on, be confident, and also be humble that you have a lot to learn from lots and lots of firms out there.
remember that in corporate firm you are a "billable number", and any day, preferably at lunch time when everybody goes to lunch, they can call you to human resource office and tell you the bad news to clear your desk before everybody comes back from lunch. This is the reality of corporate office, ive been there and reasoned similar to you, I was making plans for the future and stuff....
holz - of course they have, but nowhere near the time that Morphosis does. Their monographs basically made their reputation and careers, as did the graphics of Hadid, Libeskind and many others.
You cannot compare the time and effort that the stararchitects put into their graphic presentation to that of SOM or Gensler or HOK, etc.
would you disagree that the same amount of work went into tom kundig or rick joy's pretty picture book as say polshek or LMN's?
morphosis is a slightly different beast, but they also went for several years without siginificant built work - gotta pass the time and pay bills somehow, right?
uh, don't kid yourself that you'll be anything better than a "billable number" at a starchitecture firm. Actually less than that since at least your work is probably [/i]actually billable[/i] at the corporate firm... you probably have more value at a corporate firm than you would as some fresh-out-of-school model builder in a star firm. Anyway every firm from top to bottom has been laying off these days. I don't know one single firm that hasn't laid off anyone.
Yes, and that is part of what separates corporate from the stararchitects' firms: money.
Most firms need work to survive, but almost every stararchtiect out there either came from it or married it, which gave them the luxury of being able to spend time on "art" that no client would pay for.
That was kinda my point, that corporations only do what is paid for, whereas stararchitects (or wannabe stararchitects) spend a considerable amount of time and resources on making the presentation materials beautiful.
I love KPF's monograph, but it is just pictures compared to the beautiful diagrams that Hadid, Mayne and others made (with no one paying for their time to do it).
The big point was that most cannot afford this luxury - to just make pretty things. Most need to work to eat and live, which requires getting paid for your time. Personally, I'd make pretty things all day and night, but I have to pay for my living, which requires doing work that clients will pay me for.
Well either way, this thread is all about trying to make clear to the individual (with no prior professional experience)who posted this that he/she cannot go around acting like they're far too good to be in a -- GOD Forbid -- corporate firm. At this point you should take what you can get and be extremely thankful and greatful to them that they are making you an offer. I know at least 50 people who would be happy as hell to take that offer and be extremely excited to be a part of that firm's team/
You know since starchitects never lay people off, never do shitty work, are the nicest people in the world, and wouldn't even THINK about running a sweat shop.
But hey, at least you can make some good "monographs"! ::rolls eyes::
ds96,
you seem to be having a hard time looking for work as a gsd grad.
do you mind showing us what kind of work samples you have been sending out to all these firms you are interested in?
Dont worry about being at a corporate job too long. Every 5 or 6 years they pretty much turn over the entire staff except for Principles and senior management.
i'll be finishing school soon, and if someone with your background is having a hard time, i just want to know where i roughly stand in the applicant pool.
once u go corporate, can u go back?
i'm a new m.arch grad considering taking a corporate job because none of the fancy architects have expressed any interest in me. the corporate firm that offered me a job is actually pretty good and is doing some interesting large international projects, even if their aesthetic isn't outstanding and their work not intellectually challenging. but if i do that, will it set me on a path that it's hard to get off of? will it be hard to leave that path and go back to fancy designers & quasi-starchitects, or back to academia? should i hold out, work on my portfolio for a few months, try again at the places i'd really like to work? i'll be okay financially even if im unemployed for a few more months... after that it'll get dicey. thanks!
a job is better than no job. i know a few corporate whores that have moved on to work for the steven holls and the OSKAs of the world.
as someone who has work to 10 years in 7 firms of big and small names, i think you really need to ask yourself that question.
first, there are just as much to learn on a boring 5 story brick building as some hi-end 100 story twisty office towers you see only in renderings.
Form my experience people who does only hi-profile buildings for starkitects never really learn the basics of construction, the business end of architecture or contacts negotiation etc. I know because I was one of them earliy in my career and it simply wasn't enough to fulfill what I want out of architecture. It took my 2 years to get sick of drawing pretty picture but never smelled that freshly poured concrete, or understand how complex it is for the contractors to orchestrate on the site.
If i had a chance to do it all over again, i would consider firms that actually have a track record of getting buildings build. In 5 years you'll learn an incredible amount of knowledge surpassing any of your unenlightened peers who can draw curves. And if you are a designer at heart, you would actually know how to implement your own crazy designs with your own practice.
a job is just a job, until you can make your own design decisions, you are only doing what they tell you or imitating designs of those starkitects.
Now the question is what type of architect you want to be?
niro, that was a very inspiring post
Take the job, it will help you to know what to do next.
I have worked just for two starchitects before going corporate early this year.
In both offices I had jobmates with +5/+10 years experience who have worked for small boutique or big corporate practices for most of their career.
Let's say in a few years time you want to work for a "starachitect". They will probably appreciate that you have had contact with construction, technical details and a less "diva" working environment. Personally I was quite shocked how (in both offices) many many of my jobmates have been swapping "starchitects" all the time, making really crazy combinations (opposite styles let's say). Working with "egos" is not easy, most probably you'll have a better chance to get a job in a starachitect office later if you have a good record of humble hard-working construction experience. Obviously not doing single-family houses in Neo-Mexican style, but working for SOM or sth. like that.
At the end Zaha Hadid or Libeskind projects have to built as well... and there is only one starchitect in the office... the rest have to work to make those ideas technically possible.
How do you define 'corporate'?
Do you mean a lack of freedom, creativity, and autonomy?
Because there's a lack of those things at the progressive firms as well.
You're job is what YOU make of it. If you're waiting for the perfect situation to fall into your lap, then you will be waiting a long tim.
Thank you very much for the thoughtful responses, espcially niro.
I guess I'm maybe looking at things the wrong way. Maybe I'm frightfully superficial. I've been more worried about finding somewhere to work that has a known name is perceived as cool by those in the industry rather than somewhere that is necessarily the best place to learn.
It's just really frustrating that coming from a fancy school, having a decent amount of work experience, and being an intelligent person, I can't even get any of the well-known firms (starchitects or mid-level starchitects) to offer me any job whatsoever, even a frighteningly low-paying one (i.e. an internship that a student should be getting).
I guess maybe I don't have the design and graphical skills that these places are looking for.
And so, corporate it is. I'm sure I can learn a lot there about what it takes to be an architect - but I'd prefer something that is actually intellectually challenging rather than just delivering a successful building that meets the client's needs.
Constraints are design opportunities. One can design with mechanisms such as the specifications, or procurement schedules.
Most of what the big name firms produce is glossy lipstick, and even that gets detailed and spec'd by consultants or an architect of record. The innovation is actually merely propaganda and image making.
Corporate firms at least will push you to get very technical very quickly, which is more valuable than being ace at photoshop if you eventually decide to strike out on your own.
I say turn down the job so they can give it to someone who will be thrilled and proud to work there. No one wants an employee who feels they have "settled". If you can't get past your snobbishness ('fancy' architects??? give me a break...) and be proud to be part of this firm, let the job go to someone who can.
"I'd prefer something that is actually intellectually challenging rather than just delivering a successful building that meets the client's needs."
Do you really think working for an "fancy" architect is to be intellectual? I don't think so.
You wouldn't even have time to think yourself and read some valuable books rendering their fancy designs all day long.
Then, how could you be intellectual or creative?
Being their "apostle" doesn't mean you become intellectual.
Whay they don't pay you is not only the money, but more importantly your time, too.
Be Smart!
Also ds96, you need to realize that as a new grad, you know virtually nothing about building. It is actually amusing that you don't even realize how difficult, and how intellectually challenging it is to design a building that is "successful". Of course, by design I am including figuring out how to make sure the water stays out, the thing is buildable, it lasts a long time, fits in the clients budget, meets building codes, is properly detailed, is responsible and sustainable, uses minimal energy.... You know, all that practical stuff that your narrow view of the practice of architecture doesn't even know exists. I guess the only challenge your intellect will accept is thinking about quasi- architects dreams.
Seriously, I know you are young and inexperienced, and "idealistic". I can see the charm of the idea that you could sit around and "intellectualize" about what makes spiffy architecture, scoffing at low budget projects. But I also hope you can see the viewpoint of the large percentage of practitioners out there getting lots of intellectual stimulation and satisfaction by just doing their jobs really really well. It is truly rewarding on many levels to complete a successful project that meets the clients needs. You can make a real, huge difference in people's lives. It does not have to be published in a design review book to have put a roof over the head of a homeless veteran, or helped a family accommodate the needs of their disabled daughter, or improved medical care for people with Alzheimer's.
I am sorry, If my post looks a little harsh.
Thinking you have a job in this economy, you may be a talented person.
Don't let your opportunity go away.
I'm sorry, I haven't read the whole thread, but I did read niro's post and agree with it. Look at it this way: learn how to build a building, and in 5 years you'll be in demand at the boutique firms where they have plenty of fresh grads to render but no knowledge of getting the thing out into the world!
Just be careful not to let the firm stick you in a rendering cubicle where you're not learning anything.
Thanks for all the advice, which all definitely makes sense. I think you have me convinced!
But just for the sake of fairness - any defenders of the waiting-for-starchitect-job position out there?
Yes, I think you should wait for the starchitect position, and post the name of the firm that was interested in hiring you here so that someone who does not feel like it is a second rate position can apply.
You probably won't be happy there, and if you have the financial means to stay unemployed, you should take one for the team and let the job go to someone who needs to start paying off their college loans or they will become homeless.
Why on EARTH would you not take a job right not ESPECIALLY if you're fresh out of school???
If you feel like you are too good for a corporate firm you need a serious reality check. Don't think that you shit raspberry sherbert. You need to thank the lucky stars you were even offered a job to begin with especially when many of your colleages have found no such luck.
i shit raspberry sherbert once.
e-coli is bad. very very bad.
Another thing I want to add to this is that corporate firms aren't bad. Many of them have high-end designers who have made life-long careers out of working in corporate firms. In addition there are also a lt of advantages in working at a corporate firm -- the pay is reasonably better, the benefits are great, and architects around the world tend to know those names better when you get interviewed in the future when you move on.
And keep in mind that many of these corporate firms crank out some incredible work. I also happen to know a lot of starchitects that run sweat-shops.
Peter Pran is one of my favorite architects of all time. He's been at NBBJ for as long as I've known about him (probably 15 years).
There is great architecture done everywhere, but the corporate firms don't spend time making pretty diagrams or promoting monographs.
Re-read this. Are you REALLY defining the quality of your designs by whether or not some starchitect office wants to hire you?! You have absolutely no clue what goes into any of those hiring decisions. This sounds like someone who defines her self-worth by the fact that she got accepted into Harvard -- and not through pride in any of the work that she produced while there. Is there worth to Rothko's work, even though everyone who looks at it says "I could paint that -- why is he an artist?!" Of course there is.
I'm not saying you're a Rothko, (I have no idea) but you need to take pride in your work and in yourself and don't let your perception of what some obscure third-party possibly might MAYBE think of you affect your perception of the quality of your own work. You know if your work is good or not. Move on, be confident, and also be humble that you have a lot to learn from lots and lots of firms out there.
Know your strengths, AND your weaknesses. And get over your bizarre, superficial (yes) obsession with "starchitects".
som, nbbj, lmn and callison have all devoted time and resources to their ‘monographs’…
remember that in corporate firm you are a "billable number", and any day, preferably at lunch time when everybody goes to lunch, they can call you to human resource office and tell you the bad news to clear your desk before everybody comes back from lunch. This is the reality of corporate office, ive been there and reasoned similar to you, I was making plans for the future and stuff....
holz - of course they have, but nowhere near the time that Morphosis does. Their monographs basically made their reputation and careers, as did the graphics of Hadid, Libeskind and many others.
You cannot compare the time and effort that the stararchitects put into their graphic presentation to that of SOM or Gensler or HOK, etc.
would you disagree that the same amount of work went into tom kundig or rick joy's pretty picture book as say polshek or LMN's?
morphosis is a slightly different beast, but they also went for several years without siginificant built work - gotta pass the time and pay bills somehow, right?
uh, don't kid yourself that you'll be anything better than a "billable number" at a starchitecture firm. Actually less than that since at least your work is probably [/i]actually billable[/i] at the corporate firm... you probably have more value at a corporate firm than you would as some fresh-out-of-school model builder in a star firm. Anyway every firm from top to bottom has been laying off these days. I don't know one single firm that hasn't laid off anyone.
Yes, and that is part of what separates corporate from the stararchitects' firms: money.
Most firms need work to survive, but almost every stararchtiect out there either came from it or married it, which gave them the luxury of being able to spend time on "art" that no client would pay for.
That was kinda my point, that corporations only do what is paid for, whereas stararchitects (or wannabe stararchitects) spend a considerable amount of time and resources on making the presentation materials beautiful.
I love KPF's monograph, but it is just pictures compared to the beautiful diagrams that Hadid, Mayne and others made (with no one paying for their time to do it).
The big point was that most cannot afford this luxury - to just make pretty things. Most need to work to eat and live, which requires getting paid for your time. Personally, I'd make pretty things all day and night, but I have to pay for my living, which requires doing work that clients will pay me for.
I guess this is the insecurity thread.
once a super whore, always a super whore
seriously, i learn alot more about how things put together @ a corporate firm than a star firm.
Well either way, this thread is all about trying to make clear to the individual (with no prior professional experience)who posted this that he/she cannot go around acting like they're far too good to be in a -- GOD Forbid -- corporate firm. At this point you should take what you can get and be extremely thankful and greatful to them that they are making you an offer. I know at least 50 people who would be happy as hell to take that offer and be extremely excited to be a part of that firm's team/
You know since starchitects never lay people off, never do shitty work, are the nicest people in the world, and wouldn't even THINK about running a sweat shop.
But hey, at least you can make some good "monographs"! ::rolls eyes::
ds96,
you seem to be having a hard time looking for work as a gsd grad.
do you mind showing us what kind of work samples you have been sending out to all these firms you are interested in?
Dont worry about being at a corporate job too long. Every 5 or 6 years they pretty much turn over the entire staff except for Principles and senior management.
vapor, u gonna give me a productive crit, or just try to make me look like an idiot?
i'll be finishing school soon, and if someone with your background is having a hard time, i just want to know where i roughly stand in the applicant pool.
vapor, regardless of where you graduate from, if the economic situation is at all like it is today, you will have a hard time
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.