Unpaid Internships. This is a topic that has been a concern of mine for a long time. Now that we face harsh economic conditions, postings for unpaid work have saturated architecture job boards around the world. I don't buy into the "for-the-experience" non-sense, and no one else should. It hurts the profession as a whole and it degrades every architect's achievements not only in the past, but also in the future. It is, in every sense of the word, unethical.
I believe archinect.com has become one of the best and foremost popular information hubs for architects. I love everything that it has to offer, and the community it has built for the profession. I write this here because I believe every one of us who care to read the discussion board on archinect.com genuinely cares about the profession.
I want to propose a petition to ban postings for unpaid internships on the archinect job board. As a community of architects and supporters of the profession, archinect.com should set an example. Solicitation to young architects and students is nothing but an act to degrade the future of our profession.
I know that unpaid work seems like the "right of passage", but this is one big ugly lie. Do you see something wrong when this is a common belief among architects? If it is really a right of passage, NAAB should mandate internships as part of the education curriculum. If the practice of architecture cannot survive the recession without unpaid labor, we must re-think the process.
Let our concerns be heard and lets remind the employers the harm they are doing.
freedom of choice is a beautiful thing and in a competitive & open marketplace some of us understand that there is more to life than just being "paid."
the effort to ban such choices is a foolish waste of time (at best) and a presumptive act of authoritarianism (at worst). good luck.
zer0k, I would like to see this effort go beyond the job postings here. This raises the question of reaching an entire culture of students who come to believe that working for free is a rite of passage, as well as reaching the firm owners who already believe it is a rite of passage and thus it’s now time for them to get their turn.
Personally I don’t see any grey area. Not paying someone to come to your place of business and perform work for you is wrong and generally illegal.
(I think it is important to make a distinction that if someone is getting school credit through the firm for a job - meaning there is an official structured agreement in place between the school and the firm for a student to perform work and get academic credit - that the person is not working for free.)
IIRC the medical profession recently instituted limits on the time-honored tradition of making residents work multiple sleepless shifts when it came to the realization that over-tired doctors tend to provide poor care. A fundamental shift in the architecture field would be required to bring about a similar attitude that we need to value our young knowledge base, but I for one - as a registered architect who has never worked for free - support that change.
puddles, I think what *I'm* proposing - a complete shift in our culture - is probably foolish and a waste of time (I'll throw in idealistic, too), but what zer0k is proposing - a discreet regulation - is quite achievable.
Right now, I am working an unpaid internship as a volunteer - For those of us out of work, it's the next best thing as far as keeping our hands in the game, and that is what is important right now - It would not look good on a resume if you had a 10 month(mine) unemployment gap with nothing to show for the time - It shows that we are at least being resourceful -
I always thought internships were provided to students in summer only, so that it won't interfere with classes. What is happening now is going beyond control, a total disrespect to students. I've seen job ads, recently, that are so ridiculous, asking for 3-5 years of experience in order to qualify for unpaid internship position! How rude is that? Many graduates suffer even more, and what about entry level and jr architects, they just get swapped by unpaid interns, or worse, they become the unpaid interns. I wish it was in exchange for experience, but nobody has time to teach these days, you will probably end up doing same task over and over again...
You can not report those firms, because they will come back and say we are giving him experience and IDP's for their work....so NO it is not illegal! Wrong, YES.....illegal, perhaps but there is no way you can prove it!
Unpaid internships are absolutely and completely illegal according to the department of labor. IDP...school credit or not, that does NOT substitute for monetary compensation. THERE IS NO GREY AREA HERE>>>GET IT! If an employee is doing something that directly benefits the firm or contributes to revenue, it is considered work and working without being paid is illegal in the United States.
To those of you who are working for free...stop it! You are making the problem worse by showing firms that they can get away with this and you are destabilizing our profession and helping to dilute the salaries of those who are competing with unpaid labor. Our biggest problem is that we have little to no sense of unity in this profession. Designers would sell out their own mothers just to say they worked for a design firm even if its for free. This amounts to selling out those around you and eventually yourself when the market realizes they don't have to pay skilled employees as much if there is someone there to do it for free. Stop working for free, you are selling out your future and ours! As far as gaps in your resume.....any potential employer worth their salt will not respect you for working for free (because you do not value your work or yourself) and will understand if there is an architectural gap in your resume in this tough economy. The thread about going from architecture student to housekeeper should serve as a lesson in survival to all of us. Even $8 an hour for cleaning up after someone shows more dignity than giving away the skills for free that you worked so hard to acquire. Stop diluting our salaries with slave labor!!!
IT IS LEGAL...GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT. It's always been done and it will be done in the future. I agree with you that it's wrong, but it is definitely legal!!!
Here are the criteria:
•An intern must receive training similar to what is offered at a vocational school.
•The training is for the benefit of the intern.
•The intern does not displace a regular employee, but works under close supervision.
•The employer receives "no immediate advantage" from the work of the intern.
•The intern is not necessarily guaranteed a job at the end of the stint.
•The employer and intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages.
Unpaid Internships are illegal.
Read the very text you copy-and-pasted.
"No immediate advantage" - this means the work you do cannot help the firm profit in any way. No working on drawings, printing, nothing. Otherwise the person cannot be considered an intern and must be paid.
As for stopping this practice? Good Luck. Experience is king right now.
poop, every part of your citation is wrongly applied.
1. the "training" is not similar, in fact there is no "training" most need to come to the table with requisite skills for the task at hand.
2. "training" again the internship does not prepare one in a school setting, and the training only really, substantially benefits the "trainer."
3. often times the intern is hired to avoid hiring a full-time employee and pay benefits.
4. as w400 points out; there is an immediate advantage. most times interns are put to marketing tasks, as documentation CD's are not generally within their range of experience.
poop, aside from whatever your points might be, i do believe the AIA has an ethical code that forbids unpaid internships. i am not going to go hunt it down.
poop, given my exposure to what unpaid workers at firms do, I have to fall on the side of "illegal" here. The people I knew who worked at Eisenman's office in the early 90s were building tons of models - those models helped the firm land jobs and show clients what they were getting: those are advantages to the firm. And, you had to know how to wield an exacto before you could get the job; any on-the-job training didn't come from a supervisor, but from tips given by the unpaid intern next to you.
I liked what otis posted so much that I'm going to repeat it: The thread about going from architecture student to housekeeper should serve as a lesson in survival to all of us. Even $8 an hour for cleaning up after someone shows more dignity than giving away the skills for free that you worked so hard to acquire.
If you don't value the knowledge you've gained already in your career, then why should any client ever value what any architect has to offer?
BlueGoose - I remember reading that before. Is it just me, or does it really say all that and still manage to not really say anything? It does offer good alternatives though: Working for non-profit organizations and in the public sector. There you go.
I'll give you another example of a proper unpaid internship: My AE firm recently had a program (because we couldn't really hire paid interns) where for 2 weeks, students still in school could come in and engineers and architects would volunteer their time to show their projects. They didn't actually do any of the work, but they would get a sense of real-world projects. THAT is an example of a proper unpaid internship. Which I can guarantee is not what is going on in these architecture firms providing this OPPORTUNITY for these "interns."
If my only choice would be to be an unpaid intern, I would rather volunteer my time for community non-profit organizations. I.e. - When I was still in school, I volunteered for a project where I was involved in survey, documenting, visiting the site, talking directly with clients, consultants, cost estimating and etc. I was more involved in that project than any other in the real world in such a short span of time. There were many contacts I made, both in the architecture field and otherwise, and at the end of the day very fulfilling.
Slart, I'd say that it says something. It says that if you're a for-profit, private firm (as most firms are), then upaid interns are illegal. I am slightly uncomfortable with the tone of the piece, which seems to say "We'd like to let you not pay your workers, but our hands are tied..." but the wording is pretty clear.
Well, I guess thats what I was getting to. It seems to allude to things without actually saying it.
Like "there remains little room for unpaid architectural internships"
Or "Generally speaking, federal employment law dictates that the answer is “no.”"
Or "somewhere between a rock and a hard place"
They are the kind of phrases where if I were saying this in a conversation in person, they'd roll their eyes and say "what a cop out." I'm not saying that the article is all like that, or that its useless; it does provide good alternatives and the intent seems to be there.
But yes, if given the choice, I'd volunteer instead. I guess you don't get IDP, but is that primary reason why someone would choose an unpaid internship?
the best thing for the profession of architecture would be if unpaid internships were mandatory, well-publicized and (probably) the very first step to becoming architects.
with that obstacle firmly in place, how many of us would have even bothered to try becoming architects? the truth is that architecture is not a financially lucrative profession for most participants. if money is important to you (and unpaid internships are an excellent way of evaluating that) then it's really just better if you do something else. go into finance, law, computers or even housekeeping.
because as much as you might think it sucks to be broke, it's hardly any better to spend a career with colleagues who incessantly whine about money.
It's an exclusive club, and it's not for everybody - you have to be committed, and like what Puddles said, it really should be the first step to becoming an architect. We need to reach a certain level of professionalism first before anyone can seriously pay us. That being said, I also think the architecture programs need to increase thier standards - more emphasis on construction and codes.
This is the exact text from the federal labor code. It's completely outrageous that anyone would require architects to function as unpaid slaves just to "break into the profession." Even Coop programs like those at UC require that interns get paid. If you are advocating unpaid internships, puddles, you are part of the problem not the solution. Why are we expected not to eat just to become architects...doctors are not expected to work for free....can someone tell me why this profession is so above any other that in their eyes its above the law and requires that you be independently wealthy before daring to become an architect because you won't be paid for your labor for an unspecified amount of time..........
reverk.ini...exclusive club?...get off your high horse and get real, you've got to be kidding. Tell that to the 1000's of architects pounding the pavement right now who can't find jobs partially because people are working for free. being paid for your work does not equal uncommitted
regardless of what any of us think this is the law....
A common, but frequently unreported labor violation is the use of unpaid interns in violation of minimum wage and possibly overtime laws. The scenario is fairly typical: a company offers an opportunity to ‘break into the business’ in exchange for the intern working for free. You see many examples of this in the entertainment industry. In fact, despite jobs sites such as Craigslist prohibiting the posting of unpaid “internships,” you can almost always find one posted. Some companies try to get around the law by requiring that the internship be part of a college program. However, there is no exception to the law allowed just because the “intern” may receive college credit. While it might be possible for a college credit course to require some type of training for a company, the vast majority of these internships are in violation of Federal as well as California labor laws.
In order to qualify as an unpaid internship, the requirement is simple: no work can be performed that is of any benefit at all to the company. That is, you can not deliver mail, sort files, file papers, organize a person’s calendar, conduct market research, write reports, watch television shows and report on them, read scripts, schedule interviews, or any other job that assists the employer in any way in running their business.
Examples of internships that have been legal are where the job is a “dummy” job. For example, there was a case of an internship for working on a train. The company had the interns driving trains from one end of their yard to the other under close supervision. The moving of the trains was completely unnecessary and was just being done to train the potential employees. As such, no “work” was being performed, so the internship was legal. On the other hand, if the workers were moving the trains as part of the regular re-positioning of the trains, but were still performing it under close supervision, they would be required to be paid for the work.
Everyone's got bills to pay, some have families they have to support. I wouldn't blame someone for taking a temporary paying job elsewhere when all else fails. Sometimes its not all about dedication or love of architecture.
Doesn't anyone see the hypocrisy in this? In this economic situation a firm has ENOUGH WORK to HIRE an experienced intern but CANNOT PAY them. The fact that they're hiring in these times means they've got a lot of work to do. It makes you wonder if they've purged some paying positions for unpaid positions. I'm guessing that work has a client, and that client is paying the firm in some way, shape or form. Somewhere along the way the money disappears. Either the firm has ran through the money without performing the work (which is just bad practice), or they undercut their fees just to stay afloat (which means they undercut other firms that were charging honestly for the work). It's not just personal dedication of the intern that's an issue here.
rverk, now that i am an architect, how about you come over and build my models for free, do my 3d renderings for free, and work in my office - er - home for 85 hours a week? i mean, i need to go and get the work, i don't have time to learn rhino/maya/indesign/illustrator/photoshop/catia/and regenerative modeling right now...thanks, oh and the office hours, for you, start at 5am and go to 10pm...
I was thinking over this at a baseball game tonight. I know, sad.
Anyway, getting back to the original topic - I wanted to add this into the conversation:
1. Unpaid internships in themselves are not ethically/morally wrong, and are legal. Any company/firm/office has the right to have this position available, and should have the right to advertise.
2. However, using unpaid work for the benefit of the company is ethically/morally wrong and is illegal, no matter what it is labeled. If Studio "A" produces superior work at a lower cost than Studio "B" by using unpaid employees, the value of our services decreases. Simple formula showing morally, ethically, legally wrong business practices.
3. In the architecture field, this exploitation is made easier by some general observations:
a) The "intern" title that is used in other fields to define temporary workers, most still without a degree, in our field represents a large # of people without an architecture license
b) There is a large # of us with "starving artist/ I-dont-care-about-money" lifestyle (me too!)
c) Our field is hit generally harder than any other during an economic downturn and right now there is much more demand than supply of positions available. This is just ripe for exploitation
4. We can not tell 100% from an online job posting of an "unpaid internship" position is indeed exploitation, and just because a position is "unpaid" should not rouse suspicion.
5. However, we also can't be sure that there is no exploitation involved either. This is exacerbated by the subtle (?) cues that lean towards using applicant's skills, talents, and knowledge for the sake of the benefit of the company instead of the benefit of the applicant. Hmm...Why should someone be proficient at all this software and have years of experience when their sole goal is to learn and be trained?
6. Any action, such as petition for banning advertising, should be directed towards protecting young aspiring architects from being exploited, not punishing those that put up those ads.
w4000,
exactly, you should read it too, because the way I'm interpreting the law I'm thinking that if the employer provides 'training' to the intern and the intern is actually (which can be argued) 'hindering' the employer then that means that there is NO immediate advantage to the employer, but more a burden to the employer, therefore yes, they can be unpaid interns!
I guess it all depends if the burden of having an intern is offset by the actual contribution to "immediate advantage"! Would an intern be able to argue that or a firm? My guess no, therefore we will always have unpaid interns!
This is not as black and white as some of you are stating, but it is a very large gray area. If it was black and white, we would have either unpaid interns or paid interns and we would not be sitting here arguing.
That train driving example above from otis151's post is pretty clear.
I think any unpaid position ad that requires the candidate to already possess a specific set of knowledge is suspicious. An unpaid position I saw advertised recently required the intern to know AutoCAD and other drawing programs. If they are requiring you to know the programs, it's pretty clear they are not planning to spend time training you to use them.
A firm I used to work at hired young people at a very low wage - community college students - to do simple stuff like cutting paper, organizing sets of documents, etc. which led to some drafting and model building eventually. They weren't getting paid much, but they *were* getting paid, and the firm members were advised to use those young people in ways that would allow them to learn more about the field. So they were getting that all-important exposure to practice that so many firms crow about when they advertise for an unpaid intern, but they were ALSO getting a wage.
I'd just also like to point out that the vast majority of unpaid interns in architecture are young. Young like in their early 20s, which to me as a fortysomething is essentially still a teenager. It feels like taking advantage of youth and inexperience - it feels like a middle aged person trying to bed a teenager, it feels unfair and dirty. Because we are professionals - licensed, experienced professionals - it sullies the ethics of our whole profession when the older members take advantage of the young.
Right on Liberty Bell!
and to Poop and Slar...do you guys honestly think that these firms are "hiring" unpaid interns to teach them and provide a university classroom setting where no labor laws would be broken and no work would be done to benefit the employer? If this was true, why doesn't every firm with a free computer (and there are a lot of them right now) open their doors and let us all in for "training sessions." We can eat cookies and learn autocad. There is no grey area on this, that is why we have laws.
Do you guys honestly think that these firms want people with advanced digital modeling experience to come in so they can learn the nuances of the vray rendering engine without producing anything for any project? In that case sign me up...I'd love to go back to "school" in a professional office in my down time. Do they offer a good financial aid package for that because I still need to pay my rent and student loans?
otis,
absolutely not. I am simply arguing that the unpaid internships can be legal as well as illegal, but every firm can argue that it is legal and that is the reason they do it. Is one of the reason why they hire them to 'teach' those unpaid interns? Hell NO! Like many of you said, they do it to get 'work' done and not lose any money.
I know plenty of principals here in Chicago that are generally good architects and people and they really do try to help out. We've had students/interns beg just to come in and help out so they can meet more people hoping that when the things get better, they will stay and get hired full time. Sometimes it is the interns fault that they want to get a foot in and work for free. But also, there are, unfortunately, MANY firms out there that are exploiting the situation and they will take advantage of youth and experience like LB said.
I'm not sure how familiar you are with laws, but laws are always gray. They are not as black and white as we would want them to be, or maybe not.
Like I said before and I'm not sure how hard it is to understand but if I hired an unpaid intern (which I would never do), I'd say that the intern held me back if anything and was not 'immediate advantage' to the job, therefore making it somewhat legal.
You can not report those firms, because they will come back and say we are giving him experience and IDP's for their work....so NO it is not illegal! Wrong, YES.....illegal, perhaps but there is no way you can prove it!
you cannot get IDP credit for unpaid internships. NCARB doesn't allow it.
toast,
I know, trust me, but would you waste your hours and say to NCARB that you never got paid??? You want to do anything to get the hours done and never look back at being an intern. You want to get your license and move on and finally get paid!
b3,
I'm referring to the gray area of it, because just like most things in law, it can be argued! If you want to compare it to pregnancy, well...
Peter Eisenman: “I want to respond to it and say: thank god for people who are unpaid interns. When I started in architecture, I was an unpaid intern. I think the practice is fabulous. People who move up in the world all start as unpaid inters. Thank you.”
I sure don't want to end up like him, so I'd rather get paid!
Yes toast, I got it...I've been signing off on interns IDPs for couple of years now! I WILL sign IDPs even if they are unpaid...because I'd hate to see them waste those hours. I know NCARB doesn't consider it eligible, but what exactly are they going to do??? They can't prove a thing xexe!
can you explain what sound business person would decide to hire someone that held back the progress of the firm? i am just curious, who would ever admit to that?
exactly, no sound business person! But as we all know business is about not losing money and there are many of them out there that will 'admit' to it in order not to lose any profit or pay more money out of their own selfish pocket.
I'm just curious what would you do in a situation if you did have your friends son come in to your office and ask you if he can 'help' out. The industry is in bad shape and you are downsizing already but he really wants to be there, observe, help out and he really wants to do all of that for free, to get experience, to meet people, network, learn, etc. Three months later Dept. of Labor comes after you because he reported you for not paying him and they are after your money, license, profit etc. What would you do?
that is not what we're talking about. specifically, what has been referenced in this thread, and others, are those firms looking to "hire" interns with VERY specific skill sets. skill sets i might add, which bring a hell of a lot of value to a firm, and which many firms in this market cannot dedicate $80 hr staff to bill time to, especially if it's for marketing purposes.
what you are talking about is not internship but gopher work, and to answer your question, if such a scenario ever happened, i'd certainly pay minimum wage, and load the gopher up with ridiculous amounts of work.
poop, your reasoning does not make any sense. Why would any firm suddenly start paying an intern that has been working for free? A sudden crisis of conscience perhaps? Why would any firm hire anyone who would "hold them back". The laws are not grey, as an IDP mentor and licensed architect it is very disturbing that you think labor laws fall into some grey area when the text spells it out quite clearly. Any work done to benefit the firm must be compensated. As an architect who could potentially open your own practice you should understand that. Not to mention that you are sending a bad message to young designers by spreading misinformation about the nature of unpaid internships. You say you don't support unpaid internships, but you have been a great advocate for them on this thread.
B3 is exactly right and I hope all of you who are employing unpaid labor are reported. I believe this practice was officially declared illegal in 1865.
otis151, I agree with you, but I don't think this conversation will go anywhere if its not acknowledged that unpaid internships in themselves are not in the wrong. Unpaid work that is labeled "unpaid internship" is wrong. Exploiting workers is wrong. I have not had 1st hand account of such unpaid internship, but it seems pretty reasonable to assume that these "unpaid internships" are leaning towards exploitation. When an "unpaid internship" position job posting looks exactly like ones for actual jobs (except for lack of pay) we're clearly in the "wrong" category here - No gray area.
There are examples of "good" unpaid internships. One where it is for the benefit of the intern. Think about all those situations where a paid employee could not be a part of the process because you couldn't justify it financially. You could take this unpaid intern to client meetings, construction site visits (safely), manufacturing companies, shadow workers doing interesting projects, etc etc, without the burden of having him profitable for the company or at least not losing money. Without financial burden comes freedom. Even without pay or IDP credit, it would be a valuable experience.
I've listened to this on NPR regarding "paying to work for free" a couple of weeks ago. The guests argued about whether it's legal or not... pretty interesting and maddening. It's not just unpaid internship; you have to pay to get unpaid internship.
I did go off the topic, which everybody always does, but I've just tried to argue that unpaid internships are not illegal. Show me somewhere where it states that it is black and white and it says that "unpaid internships are illegal"!
bottom line is the employer is not forcing you to 'work'!!!
If it was illegal we would not be doing it, but guess what...many firms are doing it because it is legal!
poop, you posted above the six criteria that must be met for an unpaid internship to be legal by federal definitions. If those six criteria aren't met, it's an illegal arrangement.
You've challenged someone to show you where it says "unpaid internships are illegal", and you yourself posted the terms that must be met for an internship NOT to be illegal.
Now, what if you show me somewhere that an architecture firm advertises for an unpaid intern then does NOT use that person's existing skills to the advantage of the firm but instead trains the intern so s/he can go on to demand a higher salary at another or the same firm after the internship is over.
Slart hit it: unpaid work that is labeled "unpaid internship" is illegal.
I've been signing off on interns IDPs for couple of years now! I WILL sign IDPs even if they are unpaid...because I'd hate to see them waste those hours. I know NCARB doesn't consider it eligible, but what exactly are they going to do??? They can't prove a thing xexe!
Also, poop: if you'd hate to see an intern "waste" those hours, then why the hell don't you pay them for that time? You're on exceptionally shaky ground ethically with all you've posted here.
i have posted on this subject before - especially as it relates to young architects deciding to work - for free - at interesting and well-known (or unknown) offices. having worked for others without payment myself, i don't have any moral objections - after all, it is a choice - not an obligation. it is a mere economic calculation: i get this kind of experience/network/opportunity for this or no wage. pretty simple.
however, in running my own office for the last 15 years, we have never not paid wages to staff. and, up until about 6 months ago, everyone in our office was paid a wage. some of the youngest, least experienced staff were not paid alot, but they were paid the award rates (for their educational and experience levels) determined by the government.
with the current economic crisis, we - like many offices - have suffered a downturn in work. everyone in the office took a 20% pay cut (or a reduction to 4 days work). except for the directors and we took a pay cut of 40%, while still putting in the 5 or 6 days of work.
that plan worked for about 2 months, when it became clear that having most of the staff working 4 days a week was not helping with continuity. so, we decided to let 6 or 7 staff go (out of 40), so that we could put everyone else back to a full 5 day wage.
that worked for another couple of months but we still hadn't gained any new major projects, so we had to ask if the remaining staff would consider a reduction again of approx 20%, but still with a 5 day work schedule. this was agreed. as directors, we went on no pay for 6-8 weeks, then back to a 40% reduction.
in the meantime, some opportunities came up, but these were for un-paid competitions and for exhibitions at a couple of art galleries. for this, we asked staff in the office if they knew of any students interested in working on these un-paid or exhibition projects (also un-paid), but who would be willing to work without a salary. we found 3 or 4.
so, we currently have 3 or 4 un-paid interns in the office. they are not working on projects where we are drawing fees. they have skills that are useful - photoshop, indesign, models, some CAD and Rhino. they are using part of their time to learn Microstation and Grasshopper, or to do their own projects.
i am not happy having people in our office that we don't pay. i am not happy not being able to pay all our staff as much as i think they are worth. it is beyond frustrating and disheartening to have to reduce the wage of staff, but the other option is to fire them and put them into a market that has few, to no opportunities.
this is a reality - at least for us at the current moment. we don't do it to exploit staff; we don't do it because everyone else is doing; and we don't do so as a way to maintain a certain lifestyle. rather, we are doing so in the name of survival.
the realities of maintaining an office of a certain size and ambition is complex and stressful. if you think it is easy to look someone in the eye, (who has put in countless hours on your behalf, and who has the skills and experience that help the office achieve it goals), and then have to tell them that you can't afford to keep them - well, it is the hardest part of the job.
the expectation that many have in terms of an certain "entitlement" to always having a job, is misplaced.
the current situation will change no doubt, but one shouldn't just assume that the pain of the current crisis is only on the backs of the hired staff.
: thanks for bringing a dispassionate, real-world perspective to a thread that has been, for the most part, largely theoretical/political. I respect the views provided by the others who have posted above, but your views seem spot-on to me.
our firm has never used unpaid labor (below the partner level) but that doesn't mean there are not instances where unpaid internships might make practical - and ethical - sense for both parties.
dlb-From your description it doesnt sound like the competitions or exhibits would break the labor laws since you arent drawing fees from those projects, But if you won one of the competitions (assuming there was a monetary prize) would it still be legal? Or if you landed a project because someone saw your work at one of the exhibits, wouldnt your firm be gaining something from their unpaid work?
It seems like a slippery slope, an arrangement that starts off legal could easily turn illegal without any ill intentions on the part of the firm.
From the perspective someone who was laid off (and now working a retail job) I see advantages to the unpaid internship, especially for people who are still students, or for recent grads who are unemployed but able to support themselves with part time jobs. There is a certain experience that you can only get in an office working on real-world projects, and no matter how good you do in school it does not prepare you in the same way. But, for as many people who their are who take care of their unpaid interns, there are people who only look to exploit them. And, having had some bad experiences with unpaid internships, I would be really weary about even applying for one.
Not long after I was laid off I discussed doing an unpaid internship with a firm and ultimately decided not to do it because 40+ hours a week of AutoCAD was too much of a commitment for no payment. If they had offered me even minimum wage(which would have been less then I make at my retail job) I would have jumped at it, or if they had just wanted me to help out around the office a day or two a week I might have considered it because I still would have been able work somewhere else, but I couldnt justify giving away that much work for free. The experience of doing redlines on CDs indefinitely(for no IDP credit) would not have been worth it for me.
I did, months later, do a very short-term part-time unpaid internship with a publication (unpaid internships are pretty standard with magazines). The understanding was that I and the other interns would help them while the magazine was still in the start-up phases and then when they hired a full-time staff we would be the first ones put on salary and that it would only be a few weeks. After a couple of months we all left because we realized that the work we were doing was far above and beyond what we had been hired for and what was going to take considerably more then the 10 hours a week commitment we had been asked for. Not to mention the product that we were being asked to put out was below the standard of what we would consider good design, but our opinions were unimportant since it was not our money put on the line (and there wasnt much money to put our ideas into action anyway). I dont think the owners started out with the intention of taking advantage of the interns, but I do think they got in over their heads and werent realistic about their expectations of the kind of money the magazine could make, and how much work would actually go into it.
So you are saying that it's okay to shift your ethical perspective dependent upon your financial bottom line? It sounds to me more like rationalization of your choices. It makes financial sense to some to not pay interns. You can try and spin this so it makes ethical sense to yourself and potentially to others, but that's a load of crap.
There are no instances where it is okay not pay interns. Business owners have to pay unskilled labor at least minimum wage for any work that they do...interns should be afforded the same right. I understand that the federal government allows interns to be unpaid for a documented educational program, but I don't agree.
I understand that we are in precarious economic times these days, but it's not an excuse to take advantage of others.
Unpaid Internships
Unpaid Internships. This is a topic that has been a concern of mine for a long time. Now that we face harsh economic conditions, postings for unpaid work have saturated architecture job boards around the world. I don't buy into the "for-the-experience" non-sense, and no one else should. It hurts the profession as a whole and it degrades every architect's achievements not only in the past, but also in the future. It is, in every sense of the word, unethical.
I believe archinect.com has become one of the best and foremost popular information hubs for architects. I love everything that it has to offer, and the community it has built for the profession. I write this here because I believe every one of us who care to read the discussion board on archinect.com genuinely cares about the profession.
I want to propose a petition to ban postings for unpaid internships on the archinect job board. As a community of architects and supporters of the profession, archinect.com should set an example. Solicitation to young architects and students is nothing but an act to degrade the future of our profession.
I know that unpaid work seems like the "right of passage", but this is one big ugly lie. Do you see something wrong when this is a common belief among architects? If it is really a right of passage, NAAB should mandate internships as part of the education curriculum. If the practice of architecture cannot survive the recession without unpaid labor, we must re-think the process.
Let our concerns be heard and lets remind the employers the harm they are doing.
Please send your name or archinect user name to:
[email protected]
I will compile a petition to be sent to the archinect.com admins.
Sincerely,
Keigo Fukugaki
P.S. I'm usually not an activist. However, my true passion for architecture will not allow disrespect to the future of the profession.
A friend brought to my attention that AIA does not allow unpaid internships for this exact reason. read more at:
http://info.aia.org/aiarchitect/thisweek09/0710/0710p_unpaidinternarchitects.cfm
freedom of choice is a beautiful thing and in a competitive & open marketplace some of us understand that there is more to life than just being "paid."
the effort to ban such choices is a foolish waste of time (at best) and a presumptive act of authoritarianism (at worst). good luck.
zer0k, I would like to see this effort go beyond the job postings here. This raises the question of reaching an entire culture of students who come to believe that working for free is a rite of passage, as well as reaching the firm owners who already believe it is a rite of passage and thus it’s now time for them to get their turn.
Here
are a bunch
of previous
discussions
about
unpaid
internships
and whether or not to take one.
Personally I don’t see any grey area. Not paying someone to come to your place of business and perform work for you is wrong and generally illegal.
(I think it is important to make a distinction that if someone is getting school credit through the firm for a job - meaning there is an official structured agreement in place between the school and the firm for a student to perform work and get academic credit - that the person is not working for free.)
IIRC the medical profession recently instituted limits on the time-honored tradition of making residents work multiple sleepless shifts when it came to the realization that over-tired doctors tend to provide poor care. A fundamental shift in the architecture field would be required to bring about a similar attitude that we need to value our young knowledge base, but I for one - as a registered architect who has never worked for free - support that change.
puddles, I think what *I'm* proposing - a complete shift in our culture - is probably foolish and a waste of time (I'll throw in idealistic, too), but what zer0k is proposing - a discreet regulation - is quite achievable.
Right now, I am working an unpaid internship as a volunteer - For those of us out of work, it's the next best thing as far as keeping our hands in the game, and that is what is important right now - It would not look good on a resume if you had a 10 month(mine) unemployment gap with nothing to show for the time - It shows that we are at least being resourceful -
frank gehry on the WTC competition:
"When you're only paid $40,000, you're treated as if that is your worth."
also applies to architects and clients, and also applies to interns and architects;
good idea why don't we OUT those firms that are not paying their interns?
saw this the other day, not sure if it has appeared on other related posts, but i thought it was pretty entertaining
very
I always thought internships were provided to students in summer only, so that it won't interfere with classes. What is happening now is going beyond control, a total disrespect to students. I've seen job ads, recently, that are so ridiculous, asking for 3-5 years of experience in order to qualify for unpaid internship position! How rude is that? Many graduates suffer even more, and what about entry level and jr architects, they just get swapped by unpaid interns, or worse, they become the unpaid interns. I wish it was in exchange for experience, but nobody has time to teach these days, you will probably end up doing same task over and over again...
You can not report those firms, because they will come back and say we are giving him experience and IDP's for their work....so NO it is not illegal! Wrong, YES.....illegal, perhaps but there is no way you can prove it!
Unpaid internships are absolutely and completely illegal according to the department of labor. IDP...school credit or not, that does NOT substitute for monetary compensation. THERE IS NO GREY AREA HERE>>>GET IT! If an employee is doing something that directly benefits the firm or contributes to revenue, it is considered work and working without being paid is illegal in the United States.
To those of you who are working for free...stop it! You are making the problem worse by showing firms that they can get away with this and you are destabilizing our profession and helping to dilute the salaries of those who are competing with unpaid labor. Our biggest problem is that we have little to no sense of unity in this profession. Designers would sell out their own mothers just to say they worked for a design firm even if its for free. This amounts to selling out those around you and eventually yourself when the market realizes they don't have to pay skilled employees as much if there is someone there to do it for free. Stop working for free, you are selling out your future and ours! As far as gaps in your resume.....any potential employer worth their salt will not respect you for working for free (because you do not value your work or yourself) and will understand if there is an architectural gap in your resume in this tough economy. The thread about going from architecture student to housekeeper should serve as a lesson in survival to all of us. Even $8 an hour for cleaning up after someone shows more dignity than giving away the skills for free that you worked so hard to acquire. Stop diluting our salaries with slave labor!!!
IT IS LEGAL...GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT. It's always been done and it will be done in the future. I agree with you that it's wrong, but it is definitely legal!!!
Here are the criteria:
•An intern must receive training similar to what is offered at a vocational school.
•The training is for the benefit of the intern.
•The intern does not displace a regular employee, but works under close supervision.
•The employer receives "no immediate advantage" from the work of the intern.
•The intern is not necessarily guaranteed a job at the end of the stint.
•The employer and intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages.
and this is from the federal labor law.
Unpaid Internships are illegal.
Read the very text you copy-and-pasted.
"No immediate advantage" - this means the work you do cannot help the firm profit in any way. No working on drawings, printing, nothing. Otherwise the person cannot be considered an intern and must be paid.
As for stopping this practice? Good Luck. Experience is king right now.
poop, every part of your citation is wrongly applied.
1. the "training" is not similar, in fact there is no "training" most need to come to the table with requisite skills for the task at hand.
2. "training" again the internship does not prepare one in a school setting, and the training only really, substantially benefits the "trainer."
3. often times the intern is hired to avoid hiring a full-time employee and pay benefits.
4. as w400 points out; there is an immediate advantage. most times interns are put to marketing tasks, as documentation CD's are not generally within their range of experience.
5. true enough.
6. ok.
poop, aside from whatever your points might be, i do believe the AIA has an ethical code that forbids unpaid internships. i am not going to go hunt it down.
poop, given my exposure to what unpaid workers at firms do, I have to fall on the side of "illegal" here. The people I knew who worked at Eisenman's office in the early 90s were building tons of models - those models helped the firm land jobs and show clients what they were getting: those are advantages to the firm. And, you had to know how to wield an exacto before you could get the job; any on-the-job training didn't come from a supervisor, but from tips given by the unpaid intern next to you.
I liked what otis posted so much that I'm going to repeat it: The thread about going from architecture student to housekeeper should serve as a lesson in survival to all of us. Even $8 an hour for cleaning up after someone shows more dignity than giving away the skills for free that you worked so hard to acquire.
If you don't value the knowledge you've gained already in your career, then why should any client ever value what any architect has to offer?
This is the actual view of AIA on this subject: Can Intern Architects Work for Free to Get IDP Experience?
BlueGoose - I remember reading that before. Is it just me, or does it really say all that and still manage to not really say anything? It does offer good alternatives though: Working for non-profit organizations and in the public sector. There you go.
I'll give you another example of a proper unpaid internship: My AE firm recently had a program (because we couldn't really hire paid interns) where for 2 weeks, students still in school could come in and engineers and architects would volunteer their time to show their projects. They didn't actually do any of the work, but they would get a sense of real-world projects. THAT is an example of a proper unpaid internship. Which I can guarantee is not what is going on in these architecture firms providing this OPPORTUNITY for these "interns."
If my only choice would be to be an unpaid intern, I would rather volunteer my time for community non-profit organizations. I.e. - When I was still in school, I volunteered for a project where I was involved in survey, documenting, visiting the site, talking directly with clients, consultants, cost estimating and etc. I was more involved in that project than any other in the real world in such a short span of time. There were many contacts I made, both in the architecture field and otherwise, and at the end of the day very fulfilling.
Slart, I'd say that it says something. It says that if you're a for-profit, private firm (as most firms are), then upaid interns are illegal. I am slightly uncomfortable with the tone of the piece, which seems to say "We'd like to let you not pay your workers, but our hands are tied..." but the wording is pretty clear.
Well, I guess thats what I was getting to. It seems to allude to things without actually saying it.
Like "there remains little room for unpaid architectural internships"
Or "Generally speaking, federal employment law dictates that the answer is “no.”"
Or "somewhere between a rock and a hard place"
They are the kind of phrases where if I were saying this in a conversation in person, they'd roll their eyes and say "what a cop out." I'm not saying that the article is all like that, or that its useless; it does provide good alternatives and the intent seems to be there.
But yes, if given the choice, I'd volunteer instead. I guess you don't get IDP, but is that primary reason why someone would choose an unpaid internship?
the best thing for the profession of architecture would be if unpaid internships were mandatory, well-publicized and (probably) the very first step to becoming architects.
with that obstacle firmly in place, how many of us would have even bothered to try becoming architects? the truth is that architecture is not a financially lucrative profession for most participants. if money is important to you (and unpaid internships are an excellent way of evaluating that) then it's really just better if you do something else. go into finance, law, computers or even housekeeping.
because as much as you might think it sucks to be broke, it's hardly any better to spend a career with colleagues who incessantly whine about money.
It's an exclusive club, and it's not for everybody - you have to be committed, and like what Puddles said, it really should be the first step to becoming an architect. We need to reach a certain level of professionalism first before anyone can seriously pay us. That being said, I also think the architecture programs need to increase thier standards - more emphasis on construction and codes.
This is the exact text from the federal labor code. It's completely outrageous that anyone would require architects to function as unpaid slaves just to "break into the profession." Even Coop programs like those at UC require that interns get paid. If you are advocating unpaid internships, puddles, you are part of the problem not the solution. Why are we expected not to eat just to become architects...doctors are not expected to work for free....can someone tell me why this profession is so above any other that in their eyes its above the law and requires that you be independently wealthy before daring to become an architect because you won't be paid for your labor for an unspecified amount of time..........
reverk.ini...exclusive club?...get off your high horse and get real, you've got to be kidding. Tell that to the 1000's of architects pounding the pavement right now who can't find jobs partially because people are working for free. being paid for your work does not equal uncommitted
regardless of what any of us think this is the law....
A common, but frequently unreported labor violation is the use of unpaid interns in violation of minimum wage and possibly overtime laws. The scenario is fairly typical: a company offers an opportunity to ‘break into the business’ in exchange for the intern working for free. You see many examples of this in the entertainment industry. In fact, despite jobs sites such as Craigslist prohibiting the posting of unpaid “internships,” you can almost always find one posted. Some companies try to get around the law by requiring that the internship be part of a college program. However, there is no exception to the law allowed just because the “intern” may receive college credit. While it might be possible for a college credit course to require some type of training for a company, the vast majority of these internships are in violation of Federal as well as California labor laws.
In order to qualify as an unpaid internship, the requirement is simple: no work can be performed that is of any benefit at all to the company. That is, you can not deliver mail, sort files, file papers, organize a person’s calendar, conduct market research, write reports, watch television shows and report on them, read scripts, schedule interviews, or any other job that assists the employer in any way in running their business.
Examples of internships that have been legal are where the job is a “dummy” job. For example, there was a case of an internship for working on a train. The company had the interns driving trains from one end of their yard to the other under close supervision. The moving of the trains was completely unnecessary and was just being done to train the potential employees. As such, no “work” was being performed, so the internship was legal. On the other hand, if the workers were moving the trains as part of the regular re-positioning of the trains, but were still performing it under close supervision, they would be required to be paid for the work.
Everyone's got bills to pay, some have families they have to support. I wouldn't blame someone for taking a temporary paying job elsewhere when all else fails. Sometimes its not all about dedication or love of architecture.
Doesn't anyone see the hypocrisy in this? In this economic situation a firm has ENOUGH WORK to HIRE an experienced intern but CANNOT PAY them. The fact that they're hiring in these times means they've got a lot of work to do. It makes you wonder if they've purged some paying positions for unpaid positions. I'm guessing that work has a client, and that client is paying the firm in some way, shape or form. Somewhere along the way the money disappears. Either the firm has ran through the money without performing the work (which is just bad practice), or they undercut their fees just to stay afloat (which means they undercut other firms that were charging honestly for the work). It's not just personal dedication of the intern that's an issue here.
rverk, now that i am an architect, how about you come over and build my models for free, do my 3d renderings for free, and work in my office - er - home for 85 hours a week? i mean, i need to go and get the work, i don't have time to learn rhino/maya/indesign/illustrator/photoshop/catia/and regenerative modeling right now...thanks, oh and the office hours, for you, start at 5am and go to 10pm...
I was thinking over this at a baseball game tonight. I know, sad.
Anyway, getting back to the original topic - I wanted to add this into the conversation:
1. Unpaid internships in themselves are not ethically/morally wrong, and are legal. Any company/firm/office has the right to have this position available, and should have the right to advertise.
2. However, using unpaid work for the benefit of the company is ethically/morally wrong and is illegal, no matter what it is labeled. If Studio "A" produces superior work at a lower cost than Studio "B" by using unpaid employees, the value of our services decreases. Simple formula showing morally, ethically, legally wrong business practices.
3. In the architecture field, this exploitation is made easier by some general observations:
a) The "intern" title that is used in other fields to define temporary workers, most still without a degree, in our field represents a large # of people without an architecture license
b) There is a large # of us with "starving artist/ I-dont-care-about-money" lifestyle (me too!)
c) Our field is hit generally harder than any other during an economic downturn and right now there is much more demand than supply of positions available. This is just ripe for exploitation
4. We can not tell 100% from an online job posting of an "unpaid internship" position is indeed exploitation, and just because a position is "unpaid" should not rouse suspicion.
5. However, we also can't be sure that there is no exploitation involved either. This is exacerbated by the subtle (?) cues that lean towards using applicant's skills, talents, and knowledge for the sake of the benefit of the company instead of the benefit of the applicant. Hmm...Why should someone be proficient at all this software and have years of experience when their sole goal is to learn and be trained?
6. Any action, such as petition for banning advertising, should be directed towards protecting young aspiring architects from being exploited, not punishing those that put up those ads.
w4000,
exactly, you should read it too, because the way I'm interpreting the law I'm thinking that if the employer provides 'training' to the intern and the intern is actually (which can be argued) 'hindering' the employer then that means that there is NO immediate advantage to the employer, but more a burden to the employer, therefore yes, they can be unpaid interns!
I guess it all depends if the burden of having an intern is offset by the actual contribution to "immediate advantage"! Would an intern be able to argue that or a firm? My guess no, therefore we will always have unpaid interns!
This is not as black and white as some of you are stating, but it is a very large gray area. If it was black and white, we would have either unpaid interns or paid interns and we would not be sitting here arguing.
Cheers!
P.S. I am still against unpaid internships!
That train driving example above from otis151's post is pretty clear.
I think any unpaid position ad that requires the candidate to already possess a specific set of knowledge is suspicious. An unpaid position I saw advertised recently required the intern to know AutoCAD and other drawing programs. If they are requiring you to know the programs, it's pretty clear they are not planning to spend time training you to use them.
A firm I used to work at hired young people at a very low wage - community college students - to do simple stuff like cutting paper, organizing sets of documents, etc. which led to some drafting and model building eventually. They weren't getting paid much, but they *were* getting paid, and the firm members were advised to use those young people in ways that would allow them to learn more about the field. So they were getting that all-important exposure to practice that so many firms crow about when they advertise for an unpaid intern, but they were ALSO getting a wage.
I'd just also like to point out that the vast majority of unpaid interns in architecture are young. Young like in their early 20s, which to me as a fortysomething is essentially still a teenager. It feels like taking advantage of youth and inexperience - it feels like a middle aged person trying to bed a teenager, it feels unfair and dirty. Because we are professionals - licensed, experienced professionals - it sullies the ethics of our whole profession when the older members take advantage of the young.
Right on Liberty Bell!
and to Poop and Slar...do you guys honestly think that these firms are "hiring" unpaid interns to teach them and provide a university classroom setting where no labor laws would be broken and no work would be done to benefit the employer? If this was true, why doesn't every firm with a free computer (and there are a lot of them right now) open their doors and let us all in for "training sessions." We can eat cookies and learn autocad. There is no grey area on this, that is why we have laws.
Do you guys honestly think that these firms want people with advanced digital modeling experience to come in so they can learn the nuances of the vray rendering engine without producing anything for any project? In that case sign me up...I'd love to go back to "school" in a professional office in my down time. Do they offer a good financial aid package for that because I still need to pay my rent and student loans?
and it's a yellow rose...
ha ha
otis,
absolutely not. I am simply arguing that the unpaid internships can be legal as well as illegal, but every firm can argue that it is legal and that is the reason they do it. Is one of the reason why they hire them to 'teach' those unpaid interns? Hell NO! Like many of you said, they do it to get 'work' done and not lose any money.
I know plenty of principals here in Chicago that are generally good architects and people and they really do try to help out. We've had students/interns beg just to come in and help out so they can meet more people hoping that when the things get better, they will stay and get hired full time. Sometimes it is the interns fault that they want to get a foot in and work for free. But also, there are, unfortunately, MANY firms out there that are exploiting the situation and they will take advantage of youth and experience like LB said.
I'm not sure how familiar you are with laws, but laws are always gray. They are not as black and white as we would want them to be, or maybe not.
Like I said before and I'm not sure how hard it is to understand but if I hired an unpaid intern (which I would never do), I'd say that the intern held me back if anything and was not 'immediate advantage' to the job, therefore making it somewhat legal.
Cheers!
otis151 - I think you should read my posts again more carefully. I did not advocate unpaid internships at all.
you cannot get IDP credit for unpaid internships. NCARB doesn't allow it.
"somewhat legal" is that like a little bit pregnant?
toast,
I know, trust me, but would you waste your hours and say to NCARB that you never got paid??? You want to do anything to get the hours done and never look back at being an intern. You want to get your license and move on and finally get paid!
b3,
I'm referring to the gray area of it, because just like most things in law, it can be argued! If you want to compare it to pregnancy, well...
Peter Eisenman: “I want to respond to it and say: thank god for people who are unpaid interns. When I started in architecture, I was an unpaid intern. I think the practice is fabulous. People who move up in the world all start as unpaid inters. Thank you.”
I sure don't want to end up like him, so I'd rather get paid!
Page 30 of the new IDP guidelines:
You earn training units when you are employed(1) in work settings recognized by your state registration board.
(1) Unpaid internships are not eligible to earn training units
Yes toast, I got it...I've been signing off on interns IDPs for couple of years now! I WILL sign IDPs even if they are unpaid...because I'd hate to see them waste those hours. I know NCARB doesn't consider it eligible, but what exactly are they going to do??? They can't prove a thing xexe!
can you explain what sound business person would decide to hire someone that held back the progress of the firm? i am just curious, who would ever admit to that?
exactly, no sound business person! But as we all know business is about not losing money and there are many of them out there that will 'admit' to it in order not to lose any profit or pay more money out of their own selfish pocket.
I'm just curious what would you do in a situation if you did have your friends son come in to your office and ask you if he can 'help' out. The industry is in bad shape and you are downsizing already but he really wants to be there, observe, help out and he really wants to do all of that for free, to get experience, to meet people, network, learn, etc. Three months later Dept. of Labor comes after you because he reported you for not paying him and they are after your money, license, profit etc. What would you do?
that is not what we're talking about. specifically, what has been referenced in this thread, and others, are those firms looking to "hire" interns with VERY specific skill sets. skill sets i might add, which bring a hell of a lot of value to a firm, and which many firms in this market cannot dedicate $80 hr staff to bill time to, especially if it's for marketing purposes.
what you are talking about is not internship but gopher work, and to answer your question, if such a scenario ever happened, i'd certainly pay minimum wage, and load the gopher up with ridiculous amounts of work.
poop, your reasoning does not make any sense. Why would any firm suddenly start paying an intern that has been working for free? A sudden crisis of conscience perhaps? Why would any firm hire anyone who would "hold them back". The laws are not grey, as an IDP mentor and licensed architect it is very disturbing that you think labor laws fall into some grey area when the text spells it out quite clearly. Any work done to benefit the firm must be compensated. As an architect who could potentially open your own practice you should understand that. Not to mention that you are sending a bad message to young designers by spreading misinformation about the nature of unpaid internships. You say you don't support unpaid internships, but you have been a great advocate for them on this thread.
B3 is exactly right and I hope all of you who are employing unpaid labor are reported. I believe this practice was officially declared illegal in 1865.
otis151, I agree with you, but I don't think this conversation will go anywhere if its not acknowledged that unpaid internships in themselves are not in the wrong. Unpaid work that is labeled "unpaid internship" is wrong. Exploiting workers is wrong. I have not had 1st hand account of such unpaid internship, but it seems pretty reasonable to assume that these "unpaid internships" are leaning towards exploitation. When an "unpaid internship" position job posting looks exactly like ones for actual jobs (except for lack of pay) we're clearly in the "wrong" category here - No gray area.
There are examples of "good" unpaid internships. One where it is for the benefit of the intern. Think about all those situations where a paid employee could not be a part of the process because you couldn't justify it financially. You could take this unpaid intern to client meetings, construction site visits (safely), manufacturing companies, shadow workers doing interesting projects, etc etc, without the burden of having him profitable for the company or at least not losing money. Without financial burden comes freedom. Even without pay or IDP credit, it would be a valuable experience.
I've listened to this on NPR regarding "paying to work for free" a couple of weeks ago. The guests argued about whether it's legal or not... pretty interesting and maddening. It's not just unpaid internship; you have to pay to get unpaid internship.
on point radio
I did go off the topic, which everybody always does, but I've just tried to argue that unpaid internships are not illegal. Show me somewhere where it states that it is black and white and it says that "unpaid internships are illegal"!
bottom line is the employer is not forcing you to 'work'!!!
If it was illegal we would not be doing it, but guess what...many firms are doing it because it is legal!
poop, you posted above the six criteria that must be met for an unpaid internship to be legal by federal definitions. If those six criteria aren't met, it's an illegal arrangement.
You've challenged someone to show you where it says "unpaid internships are illegal", and you yourself posted the terms that must be met for an internship NOT to be illegal.
Now, what if you show me somewhere that an architecture firm advertises for an unpaid intern then does NOT use that person's existing skills to the advantage of the firm but instead trains the intern so s/he can go on to demand a higher salary at another or the same firm after the internship is over.
Slart hit it: unpaid work that is labeled "unpaid internship" is illegal.
I've been signing off on interns IDPs for couple of years now! I WILL sign IDPs even if they are unpaid...because I'd hate to see them waste those hours. I know NCARB doesn't consider it eligible, but what exactly are they going to do??? They can't prove a thing xexe!
Also, poop: if you'd hate to see an intern "waste" those hours, then why the hell don't you pay them for that time? You're on exceptionally shaky ground ethically with all you've posted here.
i have posted on this subject before - especially as it relates to young architects deciding to work - for free - at interesting and well-known (or unknown) offices. having worked for others without payment myself, i don't have any moral objections - after all, it is a choice - not an obligation. it is a mere economic calculation: i get this kind of experience/network/opportunity for this or no wage. pretty simple.
however, in running my own office for the last 15 years, we have never not paid wages to staff. and, up until about 6 months ago, everyone in our office was paid a wage. some of the youngest, least experienced staff were not paid alot, but they were paid the award rates (for their educational and experience levels) determined by the government.
with the current economic crisis, we - like many offices - have suffered a downturn in work. everyone in the office took a 20% pay cut (or a reduction to 4 days work). except for the directors and we took a pay cut of 40%, while still putting in the 5 or 6 days of work.
that plan worked for about 2 months, when it became clear that having most of the staff working 4 days a week was not helping with continuity. so, we decided to let 6 or 7 staff go (out of 40), so that we could put everyone else back to a full 5 day wage.
that worked for another couple of months but we still hadn't gained any new major projects, so we had to ask if the remaining staff would consider a reduction again of approx 20%, but still with a 5 day work schedule. this was agreed. as directors, we went on no pay for 6-8 weeks, then back to a 40% reduction.
in the meantime, some opportunities came up, but these were for un-paid competitions and for exhibitions at a couple of art galleries. for this, we asked staff in the office if they knew of any students interested in working on these un-paid or exhibition projects (also un-paid), but who would be willing to work without a salary. we found 3 or 4.
so, we currently have 3 or 4 un-paid interns in the office. they are not working on projects where we are drawing fees. they have skills that are useful - photoshop, indesign, models, some CAD and Rhino. they are using part of their time to learn Microstation and Grasshopper, or to do their own projects.
i am not happy having people in our office that we don't pay. i am not happy not being able to pay all our staff as much as i think they are worth. it is beyond frustrating and disheartening to have to reduce the wage of staff, but the other option is to fire them and put them into a market that has few, to no opportunities.
this is a reality - at least for us at the current moment. we don't do it to exploit staff; we don't do it because everyone else is doing; and we don't do so as a way to maintain a certain lifestyle. rather, we are doing so in the name of survival.
the realities of maintaining an office of a certain size and ambition is complex and stressful. if you think it is easy to look someone in the eye, (who has put in countless hours on your behalf, and who has the skills and experience that help the office achieve it goals), and then have to tell them that you can't afford to keep them - well, it is the hardest part of the job.
the expectation that many have in terms of an certain "entitlement" to always having a job, is misplaced.
the current situation will change no doubt, but one shouldn't just assume that the pain of the current crisis is only on the backs of the hired staff.
: thanks for bringing a dispassionate, real-world perspective to a thread that has been, for the most part, largely theoretical/political. I respect the views provided by the others who have posted above, but your views seem spot-on to me.
our firm has never used unpaid labor (below the partner level) but that doesn't mean there are not instances where unpaid internships might make practical - and ethical - sense for both parties.
dlb-From your description it doesnt sound like the competitions or exhibits would break the labor laws since you arent drawing fees from those projects, But if you won one of the competitions (assuming there was a monetary prize) would it still be legal? Or if you landed a project because someone saw your work at one of the exhibits, wouldnt your firm be gaining something from their unpaid work?
It seems like a slippery slope, an arrangement that starts off legal could easily turn illegal without any ill intentions on the part of the firm.
From the perspective someone who was laid off (and now working a retail job) I see advantages to the unpaid internship, especially for people who are still students, or for recent grads who are unemployed but able to support themselves with part time jobs. There is a certain experience that you can only get in an office working on real-world projects, and no matter how good you do in school it does not prepare you in the same way. But, for as many people who their are who take care of their unpaid interns, there are people who only look to exploit them. And, having had some bad experiences with unpaid internships, I would be really weary about even applying for one.
Not long after I was laid off I discussed doing an unpaid internship with a firm and ultimately decided not to do it because 40+ hours a week of AutoCAD was too much of a commitment for no payment. If they had offered me even minimum wage(which would have been less then I make at my retail job) I would have jumped at it, or if they had just wanted me to help out around the office a day or two a week I might have considered it because I still would have been able work somewhere else, but I couldnt justify giving away that much work for free. The experience of doing redlines on CDs indefinitely(for no IDP credit) would not have been worth it for me.
I did, months later, do a very short-term part-time unpaid internship with a publication (unpaid internships are pretty standard with magazines). The understanding was that I and the other interns would help them while the magazine was still in the start-up phases and then when they hired a full-time staff we would be the first ones put on salary and that it would only be a few weeks. After a couple of months we all left because we realized that the work we were doing was far above and beyond what we had been hired for and what was going to take considerably more then the 10 hours a week commitment we had been asked for. Not to mention the product that we were being asked to put out was below the standard of what we would consider good design, but our opinions were unimportant since it was not our money put on the line (and there wasnt much money to put our ideas into action anyway). I dont think the owners started out with the intention of taking advantage of the interns, but I do think they got in over their heads and werent realistic about their expectations of the kind of money the magazine could make, and how much work would actually go into it.
So you are saying that it's okay to shift your ethical perspective dependent upon your financial bottom line? It sounds to me more like rationalization of your choices. It makes financial sense to some to not pay interns. You can try and spin this so it makes ethical sense to yourself and potentially to others, but that's a load of crap.
There are no instances where it is okay not pay interns. Business owners have to pay unskilled labor at least minimum wage for any work that they do...interns should be afforded the same right. I understand that the federal government allows interns to be unpaid for a documented educational program, but I don't agree.
I understand that we are in precarious economic times these days, but it's not an excuse to take advantage of others.
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