you know - if my family could have supported me for 3 months of interning for someone famous just so I could get a leg up in my career, I would have done it... unfortunately I needed to support myself, my mom, and my younger brother after school so I took the first paying job I could find.

For me the real problem with unpaid internships is that the only people who can do them are people whose families have money/connections. that's why people think eisenman is a jerk - through supporting unpaid internships he is saying that economically disadvantaged people do not deserve the same opportunities as wealthy people.

yeah, there are places who are blatantly skirting federal labor laws (intern exploitation is a whole other issue, IMO) - however, you'd have to think that no one in their right mind would work someplace for free if they didn't think it would help their careers... the problem is that some of us get quite a bit more help than others.

you have to give NCARB and AIA credit for finally trying to discourage firms from perpetuating this system of patronage and connections. even though we've come pretty far in the past several decades, we've still got a long way to go to make sure that people can get ahead based solely on their abilities and talent.

toaster - yes, this guy did have plenty of family money. but, you know what? who the hell cares - it's the same kind of system for just about any discipline, business, or other social endeavor. to think that we're operating in a true meritocracy is naive at best. the only thing you can do is try to figure out how the system works (preferably early in life), work harder than everyone else, and decide whether you want to move within the system or want to turn it on its head.

if we could leave ethics aside for a moment, from a practical point of view, isn't it true that you get what you pay for, generally speaking?

I couldn't work for free because, psychologically, I couldn't do my best work for someone who isn't paying me.

And let's be honest, this isn't just about starchitects anymore, where the intern still has the benefit of a recommendation letter afterward, but all kinds of firms I nobody heard of before. Why would would anybody intern there for free and what kind of benefit does the firm get from substandard work that someone else has to revise?

outed - right - I just want to make sure that people are aware what unpaid interships truly are - not "exploitation" of interns who do it, but a system set up to benefit the wealthy.

Working for free is illegal in most states. If you want to work for free than work for someone else who is working for free. Or, to a lesser extent, work for a non-profit agency.

marlowe,
I don't think anybody 'wants' to work for free, but it is a way for them to get connected, get the foot in, get a recommendation letter etc. Nobody wants to do it, nobody forces them to do it, but they do it hoping it will get them somewhere....and hopefully it does if they are already putting themselves in that situation.

Keigo,

Thanks for bringing this issue up (it obviously seems to be a hot topic). Eventhough we all can complain and point fingers at who is at fault for allowing/accepting these unpaid internships or even whether unpaid work is morally and legally acceptable, the economy has gone to crap and these unpaid positions are some of the only ones available for us newbies to the professional realm of architecture (and sadly, also some of the only available positions to those who have masters degrees and some hefty experience in their past). I think petitioning archinect is step 1, but it is also going to take a huge amount of designers and hopeful architects to all say no to accepting these fruitless jobs. These firms, lead by starchitects or nobodies, need us to survive. They are relying on the fact that even if one person is to say no to an unpaid position, the next unconscious person will gladly accept the offer. Plus, as the economy goes farther and farther down, the expectations of interns or junior architects are rising by the second. What kind of intern should be expected to be a master at 3d programs with the knowledge to script entities as well as know everything about autocad, adobe programs, and even physical modelling?
In my mind, an internship should be a program that fosters a learning environment or at least one that could mean employment in the future. I mean, I understand if a firm were to hire someone as an intern in order just to "try" him/her out, but there should always be the possibility of future progression. The money a person gets paid should be a direct reflection of his/her skill level. By accepting an unpaid internship, you are then saying that you do not value your own skills.
Yet, what are we left to do? All the other design fields are also flooded with the same employment problems as the architectural field. Plus, with international architectural students having these internships as a requirement for their degrees, americans or worldly post-graduates are left in the cold with little opportunity to find someone who would like to pay them for the same skills that they could get for free.
I don't know what to say or think anymore. I've worked for a starchitect and i'm still in the same position as everyone else: jobless with hopes of someday, regaining my dignity through work that is appreciated and fairly paid for.

Someday, the whole world will be covered in carpet and we will clean it

a simple viscous cycle: _

intern/students are UNPAID
V
intern/students are taking some job opportunities of the graduated/licensed dudes
V
project expenditure on human resources drops
V
architect fee shrinks / architects are almost "volunteering" for projects
V
value of architecture in the economics decreases
V
more enthusiastic dudes cannot become architects because of low income concern +
architects get even less respects/authority on project designs
V
quality of architecture gets worse...and worse...and..
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

my first-ever 2 "intern architect" positions, i didn't expect to get paid - was hoping to just get my feet wet.

i actually got paid, it felt nice.

- LOL

This vicI cycle you refer to - while plausible - probably is beyond our reasonable control. Much as we might wish otherwise, we don't control fees -the "market" controls fees. Comments of the sort made above are, at best, innocent.

Work is where you find it - we can take the low fees offered or starve and continue to terminate staff. For all our arrogance, we don't control the market. Paying our staff more isn't going to raise our fees. Providing real "client centered" value and operating at peak efficiency is the key to economic success.

vicious cycle ... sorry

any intern that is willing to work for free, please, by all means give me a call. i am licensed and would be more than willing to give you all the free work and education you can handle.

another thing, what's so fascinating is to witness how inept we all are at the process of negotiation, and i include myself in that WE. fine, you knuckleheads want to "work" for "free," go ahead, do it. i want to offer another option to those out there interested in, another option, how about negotiating another type of "fee?" perhaps free use of studio software, tools, resources, 3d printers, cnc machines, etc...? you can barter or trade your labor for something tangible. if not that, then why not something else? perhaps stock options, if available, perhaps tuition assistance, reimbursement, contribute to your tour of italy or egypt or india or china???

but, if you want to work for free, i will again, put out the call, come work for me for free, and help me build my new firm, i am licensed and can give you all the idp units you can handle.

werd.

does "free intern trend" happen in other professional industries?

yes. famously so, even. movies about it even.

devil wears prada, is one i suspect jump is referring to, but unless there is a professional code of conduct for the Anna Wintours of the world, i'd doubt anyone gives a shit.

it certainly happens in the music industry...i just read this about one of my favorite labels

anything that is competitive is going to have people willing to work for free.

so? when the payoff for slaving for Rem, comes even close, close, to what an intern has to suffer for working at Sony or Atlantic or Virgin, i'll start performing oral on Senor Koolhaas.

My experience,

I have worked for a couple of starchitects (both are usually among the top positions in the Büroranking in Baunetz), one as an intern and one as an architect.

In both I was payed. In my first position, as an intern I was payed even slightly higher than the country average, and in the other one I was payed less than in a typical commercial office (around 15-20% less I would say). I would never ever work for free.

I have friends who have worked in almost any starchitect office and most of them got payed. Obviously some of them were not, but I would say that´s usually for "starchitects on the rise" (I won't name any, but some of the names were posted above :)) or "wannabe starchitects ". I still have in my inbox an internship offer which states something like "Remuneration: 0,00 euros". Hilarious.

:
"project expenditure on human resources drops
V
architect fee shrinks / architects are almost "volunteering" for projects"

I have to say that I agree with file above -- I don't see any real 'cause and effect' relationship here between labor costs and fees.

Fees in the market are generally low right now because there are two many design firms chasing too few projects - that's basic Economics 101. Clients understand this and operate accordingly.

I don't believe many firms take on unpaid interns simply so they can accept projects at lower fees. I think they do it primarily because they are unethical and they can.

Firms won't stop offering unpaid internships until interns abandon a willingness to work for free.

Amazing to me how blinded some of the veterans are on this topic.

Lower labor costs ABSOLUTELY translate to lower fees. Name one industry where labor cost cuts don't directly influence the top and bottom line.

This is Economics 101.

Do you think that a client walks into an architecture office for an interview completely in the dark. A decent business person can take one look around the studio and figure things out pretty quickly. These aren't stupid people.

A bunch of kids in rags hunched over keyboards = sweatshop. If you've spent anytime in a number offices you can spot telling signs quite easily.

Nevertheless, firms that get by on cheap labor ultimately cut fees to compete. Why? because they can and it makes for good business. Their margins stay the same, and the client gets a better deal. Once the precedent is set that client expects the same everytime. It only takes a couple of firms doing this to lower the bar for all.

Don't kid yourself. Architecture is NOT different. It is still a business that operates within a larger capitalistic environment. Architecture is subject to the same economics as any industry.

cadcroupier - I find your last post confusing.

Are you arguing that
a. "fees are low because firms pay low wages" or
b. "wages are low because firms get low fees" ?

I'm not suprised.

Both A and B. Cause and Effect.

If firm A has lower overhead than firm B. Firm A will almost always cut price in the face of competition. Why, because it is the easiest and most assured way to sell.

This starts a downward spiral and wrecks havoc on the bottom line. Because lower price = less revenue. Less revenue = less income.

Unless! you either raise sales or increase margins by decreasing expenses. If you can't increase sales (like in this market) you have to reduce expenses.

intern salaries go to 0. Problem solved!

Not for long. Because Firm B eventually gets wind of what Firm A is doing to maintain margins and decides to do the same.

only instead of just paying interns 0 they go further and slash PA salaries by 20% in order to flip the coin and be more "competative".

Eventually Firms C,D,E,F,etc. follow suit.

Whalah!

In summary:

Fees = Revenue
Revenue - Expenses = Profit
Profit / Revenue = Profit margin

Thus, to maintain profit in light of shinking revenues one must cut expenses to maintain margins.

the math is so easy, even an architect can do it!

cadcroupier: Hmmm ... well, I suppose that's one way to look at it.

In my fairly extensive experience in the profession (33+ years) I have observed that firms using unpaid labor tend (way more often than not) to be firms whose reputation allows that to happen - usually firms that demonstrate high design ideals or aspirations. Such firms may, or may not, be strapped economically; and they may, or may not, command premium fees for their services.

I have personal knowledge of several such firms that make money hand-over-fist using unpaid labor - they do it because they can, not because they need to. And they certainly don't compromise on their fees because of such practices.

Across the broad profession, I don't think "low fees" and "low wages" are that closely linked. I think they're fairly independent and disconnected issues.

But, that's just my view - YMMV.

stone, i tend to agree with your view, it seems that the benefits, the real benefits, are going back into the pockets of those architects that practice that way. i guess the irony is that a lot of those architects tend to subscribe to marxist principles...

Capitalism under the guise of Marxism.

Schools brainwash you into worshipping false idols.
upon graduation, you are indentured for a term of 3-5 years for said false idols.
Only to be spit out in 10 on unemployment.
You spend the next 20 years trying to figure out why you fell for that trick.

Does that about sum it up? I think I'm going to be sick now.....

Speak for yourself -- that gross generalization doesn't apply to me.

stone... second generation american or first?

WTF does that have to do with anything? My ancestors, on both sides, have been here since the early 1800s.

whats a first generation American? What does that have to do with anything?

stone--my statement wasn't directed at you personally.

more of a tongue in cheek on the scenario you describe in your post.

Nevertheless, I was willing to extend the possiblity that it was driven by economics. But in your experience it appears that it is purely exploitative?

i know some firms that dont even give IDP, Pay, or even transportation compensation... school credit yes but remember, we have to pay for that school credit. man, so tempted to name them... =X