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UV Lamps

OddArchitect

No I'm not starting my own 'special' farm.  I'm in CO, it's all legal to buy.  ;)

My question is about UV lamps to use in your office.  I'm looking at getting one since my new space won't have much natural light.  Does anyone here have recommendations on lamps?  Products to avoid?  Thinks to keep in mind with UV lamps?

Thanks everyone! 

 
Jan 15, 25 12:28 pm

OddArchitect, do you need UV lights? Are you needing that to make blueprints or diazoprints? What you need for office is probably what I would say be full spectrum bulbs that is full spectrum on the visible spectrum. UV should be minimal and cut off at UV-A. Should not have UV-B or UV-C spectrum unless growing. UV-A should be only traces if none of that spectrum. I'd only go after "blacklight" bulbs if I was needing it for something like blueprint making. I might use UV lizard cage light for geckos. For office, there is full-spectrum "natural" light that doesn't have that UV stuff. UV-A should be minimal skin cancer risk compared to UV-B or UV-C but you should get the light where UV is minimal if at all. They should be LEDs which you can more carefully be attentive to the spectrum of the LEDs used. If you don't need UV, don't use UV.

Out of general caution. UV light source is something you need to exercise some care for health related reasons. 

If UV is just relatively trace amount on the order of ordinary fluorescent light bulb, fine. Special UV bulbs marketed for its UV properties is something that is typically not suitable for office environment use. Skin cancer risks especially those in UV-B and C spectrum. UV-A is less risky if it is closer to the visible spectrum. 

Jan 15, 25 2:48 pm  Â· 
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Normal full spectrum light used for office environment is suitable and UV is only traces and mostly only UV-A. UV bulbs used for pet lizards and plant growth are not really suitable for that application because higher UV and in some cases UV-B and/or UV-C is also outputted and that's riskier for skin cancer and office workers won't appreciate getting skin cancer from working in your office. 

I'm just alerting caution to use care in selection.

Jan 15, 25 2:53 pm  Â· 
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OddArchitect

Thanks Rich! You're correct that I'm not looking for a high output UV lamp. Just something that is full spectrum lights to mimic UV lights.

Jan 15, 25 4:48 pm  Â· 
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First thing I prefer using light fixtures where I can replace the "bulbs". In which case, you can use any classic light fixtures with edison sockets or even fluorescent fixtures. If you have track fixtures, you'll need to do homework on the type of fixture and use compatible LED bulbs. The classic incandescent bulb fixtures can be used with the LED socket bulbs and they can be in full spectrum. So you need enough fixture and sufficient lumen output. You can achieve that with the bulbs used (and be LED). If office has track lighting, sometimes you can just replace the fluorescent bulb with the LED type. In some cases, the fixture needs some wiring modification. This is where a electrian worth a damn can help. Some want to replace the fixtures with those LED fixtures which you have to purchase and replace all the time. In my opinion, as long as the fixture itself works and in good condition, we can replace bulbs. Fixtures like the classic edison socket fixture can last 100+ years. So there is something to say about that which is interesting. So, you are looking for full spectrum fixtures. Remember, though, some fixtures have diffuser panels which may accent the light color which I don't know is a case issue where you are at. When getting track lights found in offices throughout, you'll need to work with an electrician to make sure things are suitable for direct use of LED bulbs. They should in my opinion but things aren't always going to play nice. If they do, great. Once that is done so you can use LED bulbs... if it hasn't already been done so far, get full spectrum LED bulbs which would be equivalent to regular FL (using that for short) tubes. Choose the ones that are full spectrum. They tend to be also something like 5000-6500K color. In parts of the office where you have sockets, just change the bulbs out to LED. Can choose full spectrum light. Ultimately, the rest of what matters is adequate lumen per square feet for sufficient and comfortable levels. I won't get into the code for that but confident you should be able to determine that out. You can certainly, if remodeling the office, plan out lighting overhead in which case, you can use traditional ceiling fixtures like the ol incandescent days but use good lumen output bulbs ti light up the interior without the benefit of sunlight in those parts but use LED instead which reduces power consumption which is a good thing. My house which has plenty of old fixtures century old but works, yet replace using LEDs. Previously replaced Incandescent bulbs with those CFL bulbs and then to LED when they became an even more energy efficient and sustainable option. Also the benefit of not having to deal with mercury stuff.

Jan 15, 25 5:57 pm  Â· 
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Tubes like these would be something I might use: https://www.amazon.com/Fluorescent-inchType-Powered-Ballast-Replacemen/dp/B0CWYSY2C2/?th=1 

 whereever, I have sockets, I might use bulbs like: https://www.amazon.com/Spectrum-Light-Natural-Sunlight-Equivalent/dp/B08QHZNY4R/ (places where such sockets may be used in office can be a myriad of locations but bathrooms are one of such locations). 

Most lights suitable for residential and commercial. Differences is lumen output in offices and studios may just be higher density lumen but solvable by design thinking about the lighting in the space. The rest helps with semigloss paint that helps bring out the lighting to the environment. 

Jan 15, 25 6:08 pm  Â· 
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Back at a previous firm there was a designer that looked into the WELL standard's credit for circadian lighting design. For that particular building, and the lack of natural lighting to draw from, the amount of artificial light needed to meet the requirement would have been too much to meet the energy code's interior lighting power allowance for that building.

Part of that was because the lights were above the user and the intensity fell off over distance, and it wasn't on any type of vertical plane in the viewer's field of vision. They dug deeper and decided that a bright light at eye level could achieve many of the purported benefits, but it was more akin to a task lamp of some type pointed right at your face and would probably have been quite uncomfortable to work in those conditions.

This was all maybe 8-10 years ago so I'm not sure if any of the research has changed since then. It looks like the WELL standard still has the credit and you could probably run your own calcs for EML to see what it might be like for your situation.

https://standard.wellcertified...

Jan 15, 25 5:52 pm  Â· 
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________

I would not use them. The light is on the blue end of the spectrum and can damage the eyes.


LEDs are bad as well. If you are going to use them only use the ones that you can select the red or preferably the orange part of the spectrum. Not all of them have this option. 


Stay away from the tube kind. They run about 1000k hotter than the ones with an E 26 base. The worst are the daylight kind.


Regular incandescent are being phased out so we are stuck with LEDs. Don't buy into the PR BS that you can enhance the ambiance of your space with different colored light. Total marketing BS.


On a side note all refrigerators now use a flammable refrigerant. Usually an isotope of propane. Meaning don't put them near heating ducts, windows or other heat source.





Jan 15, 25 7:18 pm  Â· 
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Wood Guy

My lighting designer would disagree with you on most or all counts: https://lightcanhelpyou.com/. He does a lot of education on the topic.

My mechanical engineering friend does a lot of education as well and he has said that the flammability of the new mix is greatly overstated. (He's also a star of This Old House, not that that matters, but it's a neat fact.) https://te2engineering.com/

Jan 15, 25 8:00 pm  Â· 
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You can get tube lights at any selection of Kelvin even selectable. I recommend the types for the fixtures you have unless your office is doing a major remodel/renovation of the office space in which you have choice and then it comes to how the light is casted. LED tubes also comes with the aluminum heatsink strip but anyway, LEDs are fine replacement for FL tubes. (FL = Fluorescent tube and CFL being those compact types. Depends on the budget and scale of project. In some cases, it is just simply replacing the bulbs. Sometimes a little more work involved. I agree with Wood Guy. If I can replace FL tubes with LED tubes, I'd go with that. If I can replace CFL and incandescent bulbs on the old edison socket fixtures (E26/27), I'd do that whenever possible. Reduce power and when it comes to discarding the burned out LED tubes, I don't have that mercury issue the FL and CFL bulbs have when discarding.

Jan 15, 25 9:39 pm  Â· 
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________

The AMA guidelines for LEDs state that light temperatures above 3000k have adverse physical and mental effects. Tubes run 1000k hotter than regular bulbs. There is not a one to one correspondence between the two. Warm white has a temperature of 3000k in a bulb in a tube it is 4000k..

Jan 15, 25 10:24 pm  Â· 
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The Ks is the color light temperature and is the same regardless of bulb or tube. 3000K is 3000K and same if the bulbs are tubes or bulb type. Otherwise, it would be labeled differently. You can get bulbs and tubes at 3000K and they are 3000K. They get their temperature measured by the same instruments. The bulbs can be any temperature if you look. If you have a tube running 4000K then that tube was 4000K from the get go when you bought it. Some have selectable switch. A 3000K bulb and 3000k tube that is LED is the same color within manufacturing variation. The bulbs and tubes may use the same LED SMDs or it may be different but that doesn't matter aside from maybe +/- 5% variation. The main difference would likely come from lumen output and brightness may change the feel of the light. Yes, you can have too much lumen. A dim bulb may appear different than a bright bulb or tube. So chill. Saying a 3000K tube is really 4000K is talking out of your ass because it wouldn't be labeled 3000K if it is 4000K color temp unless some jackass mispackaged or something. It would not be something intentionally done by any manufacturer. Otherwise you get lawsuits.

Jan 15, 25 11:24 pm  Â· 
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________

Most bulbs, tubes and fixtures do not have a selector switch. They are set to a fixed temperature. The tubes and fixtures say they are warm white at 4000k. Bulbs without a selector switch say they are warm white at 3000k.

Jan 16, 25 6:23 am  Â· 
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warm white is not color temperature. The Kelvins are. Anyway, you can just google online even on AMAZON for bulbs and tubes that are LED at a variety of temperature. You do realize commercial and office setting tends to have a 3500 to 6500K lighting temperature. Residential being around 1000K lower and thus more yellow and warmer color temperature. Office lighting temperature is slightly closer to the blue spectrum but often still more on the yellow side than the blue and that is for a reason. Full-spectrum light is emitting light across a wider gamut simultaneously. Other lights that are not are more or less gamut focused in a temperature range of around +/- 250K of the mid-point kelvin that its rated at. Warmer colors tend to make people want to sleep and cozy. Office settings wants to strike a balance between cold and cozy. Somewhere where workers are comfortable but not too comfortable that they would sleep like you might for a bedroom. It's a work place after all. You can get bulbs and tubs in LED for just about ANY color temp out there. Just look. Don't look at the words "warm white" as that is not standard. Warm white runs from 2500K to 4500K at different levels of warm. If you want a specific color temp and lighting, select the specific color temp by K value. Okay. The other thing is lumens. Both should be factored in in planning the lighting environment. There is a whole range of color temp (K) values that is suitable for residential and commercial/office environment. A few value are suited for residential and some only for commercial/office. Most offices pick something in the overlapping range. So yes, an office should be comfortable but not too comfortable. Considerations also should include finish paint color as well. Psychological effects is kind of more art than science because people are to individualistic about what is comfortable to them that you can't really ever arrive at a light that everyone will like. That would be like hoping to capture and ride a unicorn or a pegasus. Mythological creatures that don't exist kind of problem. You'll be chasing a myth that will never be achievable. Find a light that the office staff (those that will be working in that area) can work in. There are some individuals that you just can't appease.

Jan 16, 25 2:55 pm  Â· 
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Wood Guy

Chad, I think you'd find this episode of my Zoom show to be interesting.  The lighting designer, David Warfel, has done a lot of research on the topic of lighting types and colors and starts off with a great presentation. 

The follow-up episode, on budget-friendly options, was good too.

Jan 15, 25 8:04 pm  Â· 
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________

WG I respect your opinion. However


Safety Classes for Refrigerants
A1: Non-flammable and low toxicity. A2L: Mildly flammable and low toxicity. A3: Highly flammable and low toxicity. B2L: Mildly flammable and higher toxicity.Nov 14, 2017


R600a, also known as isobutane, has a high flammability rating, classified as "A3" according to refrigerant standards, meaning it is considered extremely flammable and should be handled with extreme caution due to its potential to form explosive mixtures when mixed with air. 
Key points about R600a flammability:
Highly flammable: It is easily ignited by heat, sparks, or open flames. 
Explosive limits: When mixed with air, it can form explosive mixtures within a specific concentration range (lower explosive limit (LEL) and upper explosive limit (UEL)). 
Safety precautions: Due to its high flammability, proper handling, installation, and maintenance procedures are crucial when working with R600a.


According to current information, R600a is used in a significant portion of refrigerators globally, with estimates suggesting that over 90% of refrigerators in Europe utilize it as a refrigerant, making it the dominant choice in that region; however, in other parts of the world, the percentage may be lower, with newer refrigerators generally being more likely to use R600



Jan 15, 25 8:59 pm  Â· 
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We aren't talking refrigerants are we? LEDs aren't even a problem issue, anyway. You can use LED bulbs that have heatsink and be in the 1-3W range and lower lumens than what you need for kitchen lights for inside a refrigerator. Seriously, what's the issue.

Jan 15, 25 9:42 pm  Â· 
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________

I mentioned it as a side note. WG made a comment about it.

Jan 15, 25 10:26 pm  Â· 
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Then you are still at fault for bringing up something that has nothing to do with the topic and that side note is a nonissue because the LEDs that would be used inside a refrigerator if used is no where close to the refrigerant and its flammability would be practically impossible to be ignited by the LEDs unless you do a lot to a refrigerator to even get it to a point where the LED might possibly ignite it but you have to do some serious f---ing up of refrigerator to even cause that to happen. The bulbs won't get hot enough with the ones manufacturers would install or any reputable third-party. LEDs can run colder than your body temperature and emit sufficient light. Depends on the LED SMDs used. They can be soldered to a circuitboard, with an isolator layer and the LEDs conductively transferred to the heatsink through a pad in the circuit board and dissipate it to a 1.5 to 2mm thick aluminum heatsink plate. At that point, the radiated heat would be at room temperature or maybe 75 degrees even if continuously ran 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for 30 straight years. Realistically, it isn't a risk. 

Inside the tubes, you have an aluminum backing strip that itself may conductively transfer to the 1/3 to half of the LED tube that is faced up in the track light with the clear or frosted cover facing the room emiting light along a 120 to 180 degree field for the tube types. That portion that's solid is just likely thin metal or plastic or whatever. In any case, it is thermal conductive heat transferred so not much heat would be emitted and even then, it would be not much different than heat you find touching FL and CFL bulbs after a long time of continuous use. Still less than incandescent bulbs. 

You are talking about maybe christmas tree LED heat emission level. I have those aluminum tracks for which I have for making UV exposure box for cyanotype prints and PCB projects using UV LEDs in the UV-A spectrum. I can do the same thing to make a plain LED based light box for drawings. Just incorporate vent holes and its fine. The LED aluminum tracks helps with heat transference but also general venting. 

You brough up flammability of some refrigerant like it suppose to mean something here. I'm making the presumption the OP isn't some cocaine sniffing brain fried red neck f---ing idiot and actually someone with a functional brain looking for information into the lights for lighting office space and inquired about UV lamps.


Jan 15, 25 11:15 pm  Â· 
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________

Fucking A . Chad was asking about lights and potential problems and/or things to stay away from. I mentioned refrigerant as an aside because most people don't know that it is flammable and is related to safety. I wasn't trying to derail the discussion. As you are apparently blissfully unaware most conversations often contain related asides as part of a normal communication process.

Jan 16, 25 6:48 am  Â· 
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________

One other thing. Go fuck yourself.
don't know

Jan 16, 25 6:51 am  Â· 
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________

I don't know why I come here anymore.

Jan 16, 25 6:52 am  Â· 
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Wood Guy

Noone, I was responding to your comment about refrigerants but glossed over the fact that you were specifically talking about refrigerators. I jumped to the new refrigerants in heat pump systems, which have a propane isotope mixed with a safer but less effective refrigerant--I forget the names/numbers--which makes it relatively safe, though many HVAC people are worried about it.

Jan 16, 25 8:06 am  Â· 
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________

WG most of us want a better world and climate change is real. Some of these solutions don't seem to have been thought through. It completely freaked me out when I first saw it. I actually couldn't believe it. I don't have an answer.

Jan 16, 25 9:00 am  Â· 
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________

GID your up vote is an insult. We ain't friends so fuck off.

Jan 16, 25 9:13 am  Â· 
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Non Sequitur

Noone, GID is just being a pain because that's all they know. Just another faker pretending to be an architect. Nothing to see here other that a sad cry for attention.

Jan 16, 25 9:17 am  Â· 
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Non Sequitur

Really only one loser here GID, and that loser is very fond of pretending to ignore people.

Jan 16, 25 9:26 am  Â· 
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OddArchitect

I suppose refrigerators do have lights in them. Noonhere, are you suggesting I get one to provide full spectrum lighting in my office? I think that would really use a lot of energy. ;)

Jan 16, 25 9:58 am  Â· 
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OddArchitect

godindetails wrote:

"Thats why I have clowns like him and his friends on ignore, cleared up alot of bs on this forum. "

 Is that why you keep responding to al of my posts?  :)

Jan 16, 25 9:59 am  Â· 
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________

OA it depends on the size of the space. A large office would need a grid of refrigerators one every 144 sq. ft. They should line up under the compression struts and 4 wire ties of the suspended ceiling to give coherence to the lighting plan.

Jan 16, 25 10:19 am  Â· 
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OddArchitect

It's a small office so I think on refrigerator and some zip ties would work. ;)

Jan 16, 25 10:20 am  Â· 
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Noone, fair enough but even if the refrigerant is flammable, the LEDs in the situation of an office setting would not be hot enough to ignite the refrigerant. Like all flammable gases, there is a range in which the gas can be flammable in terms of gas / air mixture. If it thins out too much, not enough of the gas to air ratio to sustain combustion. Too much and not enough oxygen to do so. You have to heat the gas to a temperature point where the gas ignites. Right? OddArchitect wasn't talking about using such lights in a refrigerator. Something to consider, not all offices have refrigerators as that is an amenity that isn't a requirement as not all offices have any kitchen or kitchenette type spaces. Don't assume. I can appreciate the side discussion point if it was better articulated with the context of the original discussion. I'm aware of flammability of refrigerants and such. Okay. Fair enough point made. 

Not all LEDs run hot at all to emit light. A refrigerator can use a modest group of LEDs and they run cool. In fact, because the refrigerant used already makes the operating environment cooler, that would also sap the heat emission any LED will emit but anyone engineering these for refrigerator applications would run these in such a matter that it would never get hot enough to trigger combustion of the refrigerant gas if it were to leak.... all while providing ample lighting for the refrigerator space which by the way isn't all that much space. It's not a room. Hell, you can heat sink an LED strip against an aluminum rail and it carefully incorporates venting, but most likely they use tiny bulb style designs for 'easy' replacement by end user. In the office room space, the LED tubes already incorporate the aluminum heatsink strip which not only provides a rigid base for the LED strip to be on, it also conducts heat from the LED and then that is radiantly emitted from the aluminum slowly. As the LED SMDs get more and more efficient with power consumption to lumen output for the LEDs, it would have less heat emission. This already has been happening since LEDs first came out for this kind of application. (I'm not talking when LEDs first came out but those SMD based roll of SMDs from 20-25 years ago to now. This is due to the SMDs being manufactured using newer semiconductor fabrication and other improvements in the engineering. The light output became stronger yet also use less power. 

We began reaching necessary lumens to light offices 15 years ago but we can do the same thing with like 50% of the power consumption on the LEDs 2-5 years ago compared to 15 years ago. This improvement means LEDs can output more lumens per milliwatt. Thus it means it also would emit less excess heat. Just like same IC components made today versus the same ICs manufactured 35 to 40 years ago. This is technology progress. They are making LED lights safer than before and will continue to do so for obvious reason. What reputable manufacture wants to sell products and their product be the cause of death of their consumer or the cause of the fire that destroyed their home. Manufacturers of respectful repute do care about that even while pursuing a profit but take measure for making products relatively safe. Nothing is perfect BUT effort to mitigate risks do matter. There is such a thing as product liability. LEDs are safer and continue to be in terms of heat emission. Are they perfectly safe? No. Nothing is. 

I apologize for coming off harsh on you, Noone. It seems strange to talk about the risk and flammability of a refrigerant in a discussion of light and LED light. I had to even make up a scenario where such MIGHT in theory be at play where there might be a very extremely small percent chance of LED heat emission triggering combustion of the refrigerant gas. Something you could have lead that articulation to tie the side note's relationship to the topic. That would have been better and avoided some criticism and responses might have been curved to a different mode of response even from me. Consider how a side note applies to the conversation or topic would help improve communication. I think we both can agree the risks are low with LEDs igniting refrigerant gas in a refrigerator.

Jan 16, 25 10:48 am  Â· 
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In a matter of time, LEDs will further improve in lumen output per unit of power consumption/usage. So 3000 to 4000 lumen tubes that uses 50% of the power usage of today's current level of power usage needed to output that many lumens. So they use use less power and thus has less heat emission. This will come about over time in the next 20 years give or take. It already did that over the past 30 years. We'll get more lumen per unit of power efficiency and lower heat emission. Eventually, the aluminum strip won't be necessary other than a rigid base for the strip in the tubes. The bulb types typically have them soldered on to a PCB. The tubes can use a PCB strip or it can use any rigid strip as a base. Anyway, doesn't matter to much. I prefer LEDs over FL/CFLs from environmental impact of waste, perspective. I would prefer using natural light from windows over artificial lighting whenever possible for lighting up a room. In some cases, you have to use artificial lighting. In which case, how to do so in an environmentally responsible manner when considering waste. These matter in consideration.

Jan 16, 25 11:03 am  Â· 
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Bonus of your refrigerator trick is you can basically use it like a chilled beam for cooling.

Jan 16, 25 12:42 pm  Â· 
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OddArchitect

It does get hot here in the summer . . . .

Jan 16, 25 12:59 pm  Â· 
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I'll say that the refrigerator / refrigerant side topic seems to bring out some comical or interesting discussion albeit completely off the rail of the original topic. Therefore, maybe tell myself to relax, it's just archinect forum quirkiness.

Jan 16, 25 2:36 pm  Â· 
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Non Sequitur

OddA, not sure I get the hole daylight bulb thing... and I certainly don't buy into the marketing jive (although WG, I will check out that episode).  I remember accidentally installing daylight LEDs in my home office and getting irrationally mad at the colour and delay the bulbs took.. Threw them away straight in the bin, not even recycling.

Give me the warm glow of an inefficient incandescent or a trashcan fire.  Windows are nice too.

Jan 16, 25 9:21 am  Â· 
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Wood Guy

NS, you might also enjoy some of Andrew Hubermans' early podcast episodes--he goes deeply into the science of how light affects us. He's lost credibility since then but he has had credible guest experts on for very in-depth discussions. It's still fine to be a skeptic, of course, but there is logical science involved as well.

Jan 16, 25 9:56 am  Â· 
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OddArchitect

I only have borrowed west light from across the hall. If it were up to me I'd add a TDD but alas. I also looked at 'artificial' skylights - CoeLux, Naoleaf, ect. Firm owners won't let me buy and install one. :(  Then again, they own the building and I do not so . . .



Jan 16, 25 12:29 pm  Â· 
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