iran's/persia's history is based on art, .. film directors, architects, poets, painters, there's alot and they're all over iran, wouldnt suprise me if they get a president with an arts background.
I voted for Mir-Hossein today. he's a great architect, and
managed to control the economy during the 8 year iran-iraq war as PM of iran.
Unfortunately, ahmadinejad supporters cheated during this election, shut the SMS texting service down, beated and stabbed mir-hossein supporters in streets and threw tear gas into mir-hossein's HQ in tehran.
I hate it when democracy fails.
specially when it comes to a country with a history of embracing human rights and democracy for the past 2500 years.
I love Iran, i hate what it's become in the start of the 21th century.
Nom what is going to happen now?? I mean it seems pretty obvious to everyone that the election was seriously falsified. I mean 80 fucking percent??. Youd think if you were gonna rig an election you wouldnt be so fucking obvious about it. How will people react? Were getting nothing in the west..
he's been arrested?!? the neocons must be loving this - since they love rigging elections so much... and watching fascists keep control so they can say "i told ya so"
It was more like 64% for Ahmedinejad.... Mousavi was heavily favored by the western media but Iran has a large conservative constituency outside of Tehran. That's why you heard that it was a tight race. I'm sure Tehran's polls tilted heavily in favor of Mousavi while the rest of the country tilted more towards Ahmedinajad.
I was rooting for Mousavi, but it is what it is....
just got back from a huge and bloody rally.
3 people have been killed by revolutionary guards so far in tehran.
I got tased in the arm by one of the guards, it hurts so f**kin bad.
the capital is a mess.
i disagree with some of the posts mentioned above:
ahmadinejad's terrible economic methods have caused a lot of small cities and rural areas in Iran to favor Mousavi too.
i went to the iranian section of Kurdistan last week,
the government has gave them rice and money as a bribe just one week before the elections, but they said they want jobs and ethnic justice and local political activists said almost 70% percent favor Mousavi while only 30% favor ahmadinejad.
also, the 80% mentioned above was the percentage of participants, almost 82% of registered voters participated, a much much higher number compared to any election in the islamic republic.
after 48 hours of stress and anger, i must say, this is one of the darkest days in the history of Iran.
I'm really not sure how we would have to explain this tragedy to future generations, specially considering the oil money wasted during this hardliner's ruling.
Sorry, the %80 was one of the earlier reports. I know polling in Iran is notoriously difficult, but the polls I was reading were coming from state media and organizations inside Iran, and the numbers were not terribly divergent. There was a distinct cluster within 5 or 10 points showing Mousavi up by 10 in the final days. I mean I can read a poll, and theres really only one explanation for a 50 point divergence from polling to "results". I understand the kind of optic distortion we get here, but this seemed pretty fucking obvious to me. I mean I get there are cultural differences here, and maybe its absurd for me to have expected differently or to expect western standards for democracy. But Iran seemed like the one place were there at least the people held some real power, where the government was dependent upon, at least on the surface, a genuine sense of legitimacy from its population. I mean the leadership must understand that even if there isnt an outright revolution the exodus and despair of the intellectual class and the brain-drain that will result from this will absolutely cripple them. In 5 years when the the oil runs out theyll be zimbabwe.
Dude, what so now Mousavi is a CIA shill? What the fuck are you talking about?
Nomad, Ive been to some rough places in the world, seen some dark times, but its difficult to imagine the burden you must be baring right now. I pray you and your family are safe. Dont lose hope man, things can change.
One of the things I've read, which I'm sure many you have read, is that Mousavi's election monitors were refused entry to the polling areas. Just another damning piece.
Hang <strike>Ayatollah</strike> Ali Hoseyni Khāmene’i.
The dude is weak. No political figure should say they'll take a back-burner approach to exercising power and then just randomly jump in to overturn the will of the people because he "simply does not like it."
I also dislike the idea of someone refusing to speak to someone based on geography. Iran may hate us all they want but they should at least attempt some form of communication with more liberal and perhaps accepting countries in the West.
And technically, Indonesia is west of the United States... doesn't that make it a "western country?" HAR HAR.
not to derail or detract from nomadzilla's worthy cause... apropos the underlying bipolar rift between anti-west/'conservative' and pro-west/'liberal' realpolitiking (which is not exclusive to one middle eastern country), i wonder whether the so-called west, ethically, should have any say in this matter or whether they should just shut up and mind their own business after the blood baths, historic and recent, they have caused in the middle east. and now, suddenly we wish to sanitize everything with "benevolent globalization". so we, non-powers, then either pander piously to bearded zealots with pschyosexual complexes or swagger sluttishly for a bunch of repressed nouveau riche geeks. and sandwiched between both, our own locale of lynchanthropic power-hungry politicians.
but i like it when the EU starts stating concerns over 'irregularities'. behind the politically correct pallid complexion of the phrasing is such a cthonic abrasiveness.
To all non-Iranian friends:
please help spread the news of the outrage and disgust of the Iranian people with the election results. Unfortunately, the western media is not currently doing a good job of exposing this blatantly fraudulent election. This is not the will of the Iranian people; they are mostly in shock or despair, and the braver ones are being mercilessly beaten on the streets. PLEASE SHARE
P.S. I haven't slept in 3 days (I got used to not sleeping, but that was in design studios, not in the street)
I've been accepted to the masters program at the University of Toronto and UM - Ann Arbor, so i'm leaving for the US or Canada as soon as one of the respond to my visa. Many of my friends have had their exit permits canceled after the election, so i'm worried if i'll be able to get out of the country whenever my visa gets ready.
On a final note: I've been planning to leave Iran for a couple of years now, i've worked and studied hard to have the best options open for me, but now amid this coup in Iran, i HATE burning all the bridges behind me, and leaving the country forever. Westerners will never understand the pain and they should be grateful for this and help other nations reach that level of peace and democracy too. for starters, Obama shouldn't recognize Ahmadinejad's illegitimate presidency, and halt all talks. Israel should attack the Bushehr nuclear plant after the protests have ended. The International community should enforce tougher sanctions aimed at the iranian GOVERNMENT and not the PEOPLE.
I hear police sirens and screaming from the street.
peace to the world.
Hundreds of opposition members and reformists including Mousavi have been have been arrested without charge and Ahmadinejad refuses to guarantee their safety. University staff, clergy and members of the government are resigning in protest, and 10s of thousands of people are in the streets and on the rooftops and being beaten by Police on motorbikes. None of this of course is being covered by Iranian state media, who is bumbling along as if the people cant see in the streets what is happening with their own eyes. Journalists and newspapers in Iran are being shut down and arrested, cellphone service and internet connections and even power to sections of Tehran have been cut and as we speak all foreign journalists are being told to leave. They are trying to cut the people off from the world.
Mousavi, under house arrest, has urged the guardian council to nullify the election and hold a new one, and pleaded with his supporters to non-violent protest against the suppression of their rights;
Today, I officially asked the guardian council (who oversees the elections in IR) in a letter to nullify the outcome of this election and I regard this (the nullification) as the only possible way for regaining the people's trust and cooperation with the government. I strongly urge you again to peacefully protest and defend your legal rights civilly and without confrontation and violence all over the country.
In the sincerest Nomad, no matter what happens your pleas are not in vain. The world has seen what has happened here, the leadership must now know just how angry the people have become, that they will no longer tolerate this, that they will not sit idly by as the democracy they have fought so hard for is made a mockery. No matter what is said on television, they will know that the people are no longer asleep, that the illusion no longer holds. Changes must be made. This is your moment in history, have courage. All of us are with you.
I know our media has its head up its ass, but as our correspondents witness what what is happening in the streets the coverage is improving. I know the Obama administration has not acknowledged either candidate, and Biden has specifically called the election into doubt, as has the Canadian government and many others. I hope you understand their restraint is meant to benefit you, that they must show discipline, to make it clear this is the choice of the people of Iran, so as not to give Ahmadinejad anyone to blame but himself.
I wish you safety nomad, to you and your friends and your family. If there is anything we can do, to spread information, help you communicate, you have only to ask.
An update, Zahra Rahnavard, Mir-Hossein Mousavi's wife, has appeared in public to urge supporters to march on Valiasr Ave. tomorrow and to a general strike on tuesday:
Mousavi calls on all Reformist supporters to take part in a PEACEFUL MARCH & MASS DEMONSTRATION in 20 cities across Iran on Monday, June 15 (doshanbeh, 25 Khordad) at 17:00 to denounce the election results as fraud. He has applied for a license to protect the safety of protestors.
The Tehran location is Valiasr Avenue, from Valiasr Square to Tajrish Square. The locations in other cities are listed below.
Mousavi has also called for a NATIONAL STRIKE on Tuesday, June 16 (Khordad 26) and asked all those who contest the results to close their shops, businesses, etc. and for employees to not go to work that day.
Communication is critical to success for a large turnout, so please forward this to every Iranian you know. The statement is verified on Ghalam News (ghalamnews.ir), the official site of the Mousavi campaign (site rasmi setad).
Calling for Israel to bomb Iran is not a credible plea, enforcing tougher sanctions on the government without translating against the people is not feasible.as hearfelt as nomadzilla's pleas are, I suspect an opposition in ways
as one sided ,as themed, as the gov. Y can't one be against state cruelty in Iran AND Israel? Its rash selfishness to bring israel into this
forgive the double posting, I saw namhenderson's post before I knew it was a forum thread...
I was in iran for 3 weeks, coming back last weekend. I attended a moussavi rally in esfahan, watched the 30 min tv spots for both leading candidates, as well as the debates between ahmadinejad and moussavi, and moussavi and rezai (one of the less prominent candidates), and vicariously (through translation) caught endless pieces of discussions about the election in tehran, esfahan, a small town outside of esfahan, shiraz, and yazd.
it was widely agreed that moussavi made a poor showing on every front. a lot of people who had been on the fence were steered away from moussavi by his debate performances. his base was more anti-ahmadinejad than pro-moussavi, but this leaves little incentive for voters in the center. in contrast, ahmadinejad has all the conservative base, almost the entire rural vote due to some successes with social programs (which are more substantial than "rice handouts a week before the election" mentioned above), and segments of the center.
a close friend, an elderly intellectual and sometimes journalist in tehran, predicted a 30% take for moussavi a week and a half before the vote.
another person I know was stationed in a rural voting center, and about 80% of the votes counted there were for ahmedinajad. I'm not saying there wasn't any vote rigging. but from what I saw, the results are plausible as valid.
and I agree with quibble's last point: I don't know how someone can love a place and at the same time wish for a third party to come bomb it. sanctions inevitably are on the people. the sanctions in iraq only made the population more dependent on saddam, solidifying his power.
Did you folks even read my pleas?
about Israel: "Israel should attack the Bushehr nuclear plant after the protests have ended."
1. I didn't call for Israel to attack Iran, they can't do this even if they wanted too. But they can attack one nuclear plant, and they should. They are scared out of their pants from the Bushehr plant, and so are we. As a proud but struggling Iranian, i rather see billions of dollars worth nuclear facilities be bombed than having it in the hands of ahmadinejad using it as a tool to justify his purpose.
2. Having israel attack this nuclear plant during the crisis would only empower Ahmadinejad and divert domestic and international attention from his fraud re-election to a foreign air-strike.
And thanks for everyone's warm words of encouragement and support, as hard as it is to see some people undermine our cause and call the elections " plausible as valid", it's still good to see people with totally diverse backgrounds and cultures embracing and supporting freedom, peace and democracy when they see the injustice and corruption.
As the great Martin Luther king Jr. said: “Justice denied anywhere diminishes justice everywhere.”
I'm not trying to undermine anyone's cause, or question your love of your home. I may have a better sense of your burdens than most. I did however, question, and I still question, some of the means by which you wish for certain ends.
Additionally, I think it is important for those of us outside of your election to keep a balanced eye. I have no direct interest in the outcome of the election. early on I leaned heavily toward mousavi due to the artist-architect bit, but as I got more familiar with him, it became more of a lesser of evils equation.
one at least has to question whether mousavi would be better in tactical terms of protecting iran's interests. khatami staked a lot of political capital on overtures to the west, to be rewarded with inclusion in the axis of evil. I hear this question often: obama wants to be friendly now, what about the next guy? I can't look you straight in the face and tell you that we should be trusted.
"supporting freedom, peace and democracy when they see the injustice and corruption." this is a big part of the problem-- where is the damning evidence that backs mousavi up? what injustice have we actually been shown? everything I hear is, curious yes, but hardly conclusive. strange timings of returns compared to years past (though this year much of the process was computerized for the first time, I was told), and statistical patterns that deviate from past elections-- things of this sort. and everything else is hearsay rumor.
what evidence have we been shown? next to nothing. so we are to take sides based on...? however, there ARE very real agendas floating around out here with designs on iran, that would very much like to capitalize on instability in iran, and the more that we are willing to regurgitate unsubstantiated soundbites, the bigger the storm they can create.
as I talk to more and more people about the irregularities, the more questions I want answered. however, it's not impossible that this election was iran's 2004 u.s. election. and you guys are likely doing what we should have done. but that's the thing about pinning political power to majorities-- sometimes they're not what you wish they were.
bombing iranian property is tantamount to bombing iran, however you phrase it. i don't see your refutation and i think going on about this item in particular does detract from your more credible concerns.
furthermore, i don't see why israel's fears should be entangled in yours. would you really procure the services of paedophile against a bully picking on you in your playground? the enemy of your enemy need not be your friend; now you sound like the lebanese in the late seventies and eighties (and many lebanese are still stuck in the eighties) during the civil war throes. and even well before..they were/and still are external power service drafters par excellence fucking themselves up.
we have also seen many iranian shah-era islamic-republic-rejects playing the same sort of game as banished anti-saddamites have in the US and europe...i.e. trying to incite the west against the iranian goverment without paying heed to the catastrophic effects this can have on the iranian population back home. some can very well be playing this for their personal gain, as we've also seen with iraq. therefore, i second subtect's caution in a single minded advocation of one over the other.
to note, martin luther king supported zionism which has proven to be nothing less than an evil for a whole group of another people. a mentality of absolute advocation, of idolatory, must be necessarily blind to the complex layering of contradictions and to the persistent possibility of human ethical and rational 'fallability'.
If Israel bombs any property of Iran (including the nuclear power plant) that would be tantamount to boming Iran. there will be retaliation guaranteed and Iranians will instantly support the government no matter what. Don't think for a second that just because the Iranians are frustrated with their government that they would want to be in cahoots with the Israelis.
The Israelis should just shut the fuck up for once and deal with their own problems in their back yard. It's interesting that they would now at a time like this release a poll like the one where more than half of the Israel supports boming Iran. Netanyahu just proved yesterday that he is not interested in peace with the Palestinians much in evidence to the fact that he blatantly claimed that he would support a ghetto state where Palestine would be nothing more than a series of bantustans with no control of its own resources. That is not independence and that is not anything close to peace.
bush would have made a first-rate bad actor turned bad politician, if he had the muscles.
obama would be just a perrrrrfect holloywoodish denzel washington-esque actor. forthright and articulate...but not very versatile, i can't imagine him demanding one hundred million billion trillion kazillion dollars while stroking a hairless cat. Moses, this is not a surprise or exclusive to the U.S., as oratory underlies both politics and theatre and goes back to the greek respect for rhetoric's ability to convince people (or sucker them in, if you're a cynic). as such performance of theatre was political and politics was theatrical.
@Quibble - american politics derives from the american house-hold shrine = the television.
its like debating whos more beautiful liz taylor or jenifer aniston, the whole debate of comparison is pathetic, if not pleb like. besides liz tayler wins hands down. .... except it doesnt matter, becuase its just tv.
i have been watching what's going on in iran with great interest and hope that the young progressive minds of that country can come together to create meaningful reform in that country despite the power of a clearly dishonest dictator. at the same time, the chauvinism and stereotyping displayed by a few in this thread does make it harder to be sympathetic.
while this is bad news, my (simplistic?) understanding would not lead me to believe that ahmadinejad is, in any way, a dictator. he's a president, subject to the role that iran has in place for what the president can and can't do, in a country where the clerics hold more power than he does. isn't this true?
@Subtect, QSH & Med: I fully understand what you are saying:
1. There is hard evidence exposing this blatantly fraudulent election, and western governments are making strategic decisions based on these evidence coming from within the ministry of interior as well as the revolutionary guards. The problem is that since the totalitarian media does not allow such info to spread out, and since western and arabic media have been cut from the sources and are not even allowed to capture the street protests and have been ordered to leave the country, no one outside Iran can really be sure they are receiving the real deal.
The amount of gossip surrounding the events happening during the past 48 hours have been massive. And to be honest, alot of the public reaction has been based on what they hear in the street, but that's exactly how the 1979 revolution started off.
2. Regarding my Israel comment, I might say things here that are based on my frustration and anger towards the regime, but if i can tell you just one thing that has changed in the mind of most Iranians in the process of the elections it's that for the first time after the islamic revolution in 1979, the majority of Iranians DO NOT trust the regime in any ways. Reformation of the regime has officially ended in a disaster. Iranians are less afraid of an Israeli threat than the daily threat caused by Ahmadinejad. These are the words of one of Iran's prominent politicians: " The holy regime of the islamic republic of Iran is not holy anymore. The Islamic republic of Iran isn't a republic anymore. The Islamic regime of Iran isn't even Islamic anymore. A dictatorship is what is left after a regime abuses the %82 participation of it's people in an election."
3. If i had to chose between a global bully (US&Israel) and a domestic bully (Ahmadinejad), i would definitely go for the global bully. for two reasons: A. I've seen the hatred, savagery and cruelty of the domestic bully. But the irrationality of this bully compared to the global bully is immense. Let me put it this way, In the US, a country still struggling with racial issues, a black president has a chance of being elected and the will of the people makes this possible. In Iran, on the other hand, as long as the supreme leader disapproves of someone, even the 82% of participants can't change a damn thing, even if the candidate in question is a former PM and loyal advocate of the regime. B. The global bully knows how to use its power with the least damage caused, the domestic bully destroys anything in its path. The global bully embraces science, knowledge, freedom of speech and freedom of press, the domestic bully embraces militarism, extreme Islamism and theological irrationality.
I attended an elite religious school in Tehran for seven years, the same school Ahmadinejad's two sons attended, so i know what i'm talking about when i say i'm more afraid of ahmadinejad's ideology than netanyahu's, at least when it comes to Iran's national interests.
On a final note: If i'm expressing myself on this website, it's just a mean of informing you folks about what is happening in my country, firsthand.
It's not really a means of opening a discussion or debate about the internal affairs of Iran. Each and every one of you have enough problems in your own country that sticking your nose into other peoples business wouldn't really be the best way of interacting with other nations. But caring about each others pains and sorrows is what makes us all the one single race. And I appreciate your support and concern.
Leaving for a banned demonstration with Mousavi in central Tehran,
If anything i wrote above doesn't make sense to you it might have two reasons: one. You're too far from the reality of Iran, or two: I might still have tear gas in my head.
“Human beings are members of a whole, In creation of one essence and soul. If one member is afflicted with pain, Other members uneasy will remain. If you have no sympathy for human pain, The name of human you cannot retain.” - Saadi
This week Iranians turned out in record numbers not seen since the beginning of the Iranian revolution to change their current President Mahmood Ahmadinejad. Their willingness to exercise their democratic right was both historic and uncommon in the Middle East. Iranians longed for change the same way people in the United States, and indeed worldwide, longed for a new beginning after the Bush years. They were tired of an increasingly delusional President who has thrown their country into economic turmoil and portrayed their country as a conflict seeking entity in the Middle East. But today the same Iranian regime that has denied a dialogue with the world, denied human rights, denied democracy, denied the Holocaust, is blatantly denying the will of its people by committing massive election fraud to reelect Mahmood Ahmadinejad, and arresting journalists and opposition leaders in broad daylight. Accepting this deception will be costly not only for the people of Iran but also for the people of the Middle East, with far reaching consequences worldwide. As you read these words, the people in Iran have taken to the streets in nationwide protests. Despite brutal government suppression tactics the Iranian people are courageously fighting for their rights. As antiriot police batons crush the bones of demonstrators whose only protest is election fraud, Iranians are screaming for the world to hear them: WE DENOUNCE MAHMOOD AHMADINEJAD! The people of Iran now ask for your support! We do not expect you to fight our struggle but to help us fight it. We expect people worldwide to put pressure on their governments and politicians not to accept the legitimacy of the Iranian elections and the fraudulent presidency of Mahmood Ahmadinejad. Democratic societies worldwide must not leave the Iranian people alone now that they have risen to the challenge. Instead they need to align their policies with the will of the Iranian people. Friends, we ask you not to let 70 million people in Iran be taken hostage. Any government that accepts Mahmood Ahmadinejad as the new president of Iran has betrayed the Iranian people, endangered world peace, and has no sympathy for human pain.
Another update, its now being reported that Supreme Leader Khamenei is calling for a probe into the election. Whether this is just a trap or whether its a sign that the protests and Mousavis pleas are having some effect is not yet clear. But hopefully, at the very least, it means some calm and non-violent channels are being opened.
Another note, I fully understand your frustration nomad, and your wariness of Ahmadinejads nuclear intentions, but for anyone to destroy Irans nuclear facilities by air is just too dangerous a prospect to really consider. Even just on a humanitarian basis, the potential for fallout in urban areas and a potential regional war that might follow puts potentially hundreds of thousands of lives at risk.
We can really only hope for a political solution to this.
Word on the street is that there will be an election probe.
I've been to Iran many times . It's an incredible nation with a lot of potential. And the greatest thing about Iran is what a sophisticated society it is as apposed to western views that show it as an ass-backwards mirror of Afghanistan. It just isn't the case. I don't want you to think for a second that I am a supporter of Ahmedinajad. I would have easily voted for Mousavi if I had the chance and I was very optimistic about Khatami's vision for Iran. But with Ahmedinijad, I think he has been very erratic, flakey about the most important issue which is the economy, and I think he has been a political menace to the opposition. He reminds me a lot of Bush actually. The actual system isn’t terrible -- The only thing is that I really wish that Khameini and the Ayatollahs cede power to the elected officials and settle for a role similar to the US supreme court. That’s really what needs to happen. And forget the Shah – he was nothing more than an authoritarian dictator who ran a mafia-like police state. Remember that the people brought the Shah down.
Iran is not developing nuclear weapons – this has been proven time and again by inspectors even the Bush administration. Other than that they have every right to develop nuclear power for civilian purposes. But again, we are no one to be dictating their national security needs. Remember, it’s Iran who has been threatened time and again by the Americans and the Israelis. They have every right to defend themselves. If Israel keeps making that claim and idiotic American politicians keep flinging that around, then Iran can be doing it as well.
Everyone knows that there is far too much at stake for Israel to make such a stupid move. Litterally, the Middle East would blow up like we've never seen before.
Let's think about the chain reaction this would cause:
- Israel attacks the nuclear facility,
- Iran retaliates on all fronts launching missiles at Israel,
- Iran would unleash Hizbollah in Lebanon
- Obviouslly the US would support Israel and have their thumbs up their asses on how to participate in a way that doesn't look flagrantly anti-Arab/Islamic
- Israel would need airspace to the east to battle with Iran but Iraq and Syria would refuse. Turkey is the only option but there would be massive resistance within turkey to refuse. Turkey gets thrown into the battle and so too does NATO.
- Iraq refuses any participation and probably claim neutrality but cant avoid the US presence since they have become a puppet state of the US.
- The Iraqis would instantly drop all support for the US and demand all military, civilian, and dipolomatic staff out of Iraq. Remember, most Iraqis are Shi'as and vehemently would be in favor of Iran.
- Egypt and Jordan would suspend all diplomatic and political contact with Israel. In all likelihood peace treaties would be scrapped.
- In further retaliation, Iran would launch airstrikes and missile strikes at all gulf nations oil shipping virtually crippling any shipment of oil abroad.
- Since the Israelis would be involved in a long distance affair with Iran, things at home could get REAL ugly at home with the Palestinians starting a massive revolt.
- Iran would eventually lose to basically, Israel, US, and NATO) but the lasting implications would be so catestrophic and so irreparable that things would be even ever so worse than before. Virtually no one int he Arab/Islamic world would ever trust the US, and the whole battle will just strengthen the hands of dictators throughout. The US would come out of this one smelling like pure dogshit.
Nomad, it's very difficult to take some of your writing seriously when you as a supposedly "proud Iranian" wants the Israelis to bomb your country. I understand your frustration as I feel like the Iranians have been denied a chance by the religious establishment too!
But hey since you seem to have pledged your allegiance to Israrel, I'm sure they will treat all Iranians great! I mean look at the Palestinians and how well they are doing!
@med. : OK, i see your point, but since my comment and your response to it is only derailing from the initial discussion which is MIR-HOSSEIN MOOSAVI and the fraud re-election of Ahmadinejad; I'll take my comment back, at least for now.
After the current turmoil I'll try to explain why i think its in the long-term national interest of Iran if Israel attacked the Bushehr nuke facility.
But for now, please stick to the main discussion and sorry if my comment distracted you folks from the cause i'm literally fighting for.
med, I am totally with you on the Ayatollah. I don't think Iran can do very much either way with him being the political creeper that he is.
If there's any parallel, look at how long it took Europe to mostly separate itself from the Pope. For some countries, this was a struggle that lasted over a thousand years.
A) The president does indeed have great public support in Iran, Taheri said, adding that "I'm sure he did win the election but it's impossible he won 63 percent of the vote. The results probably exaggerated the scale of his support."
According to official results, Ahmadinejad won in all regions and among all classes and ages -- again, something that Taheri said was unlikely, "but I can't prove it."
Had he not exaggerated the scale of his victory, Taheri said, unlike in previous presidential elections, it is possible there wouldn't be the outcry there is now. "Many Iranians feel insulted by the results because they feel their vote didn't count. Everybody knows, for instance that Ahmadinejad is unpopular in cities but he still won the vote there. That is why people are so angry."
Another Iran expert Karim Sadjadpour agreed, saying he believed this was "a stolen election."
"There are a lot of signs there were major improprieties. First of all there were 40 million votes cast and just two hours after the polls had closed they announced Ahmadinejad's victory: and these votes are hand counted in Iran...
Sadjadpour, an associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, added: "Another example I give is that (opposition leader Mir Hossein) Moussavi, who is an ethnic Azeri Turk, lost the province of Iranian Azerbaijan. This is the equivalent of Barack Obama losing the African American vote to John McCain in 2008."
However, this note about 2005 might be relevant (from AP):
Hours earlier, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei directed one of Iran's most influential bodies, the Guardian Council, to examine the claims. But the move by Khamenei — who had earlier welcomed the election results — had no guarantee it would satisfy those challenging Ahmadinejad's re-election or quell days of rioting after Friday's election that left parts of Tehran scarred by flames and shattered store fronts.
The 12-member Guardian Council, made up of clerics and experts in Islamic law and closely allied to Khamenei, must certify election results and has the apparent authority to nullify an election. But it would be an unprecedented step. Claims of voting irregularities went before the council after Ahmadinejad's upset victory in 2005, but there was no official word on the outcome of the investigation and the vote stood.
Quibble, I've lived in a country like that where "elections" would be held and the incumbent (usually a military dictator) would receive about 99% of the vote. The fact that these protests are even happening are definitely enviable to my standards. Wheres in the country I lived in, you would be shot and killed imediately and the people were so beaten down and so compelled to accept the status quo that they lost their resolve for freedom.
I envy the Iranians. They took down the Shah when he started to act like an asshole and now they are speaking out in the massed against the unelected body. I'm hoping that the current government sees this and acts upon it. If they know better they will know that throughout history Iranians don't like to be bullied for too long.
let me give you some firsthand news (At least i haven't seen this on western TV): On Tuesday all of Tehran's Universities and the grand Bazaar will be closed.
If this movement had a proper leader (like the grand ayatollah Khomeini) it would have led to yet another revolution. But with Moosavi as the opposition leader the most i could hope for is reducing the chance of Iran becoming a tyrannic military government during the next four years.
The guards are firing tear gas into the alley i live in from the main street as i'm writing, Minutes ago i saw one person getting his foot broke by the bassijis (Pro-government guerrillas).
I'll post more as the situation develops.
Mir-Hossein Mousavi an architect
Which i discovered reading this
Did you all know this?
Any thoughts on this piece of knowledge?
Anyone seen his work etc?
iran's/persia's history is based on art, .. film directors, architects, poets, painters, there's alot and they're all over iran, wouldnt suprise me if they get a president with an arts background.
it would be nice for a change if they had an architect for president instead of a "alleged" hostage taker...
I voted for Mir-Hossein today. he's a great architect, and
managed to control the economy during the 8 year iran-iraq war as PM of iran.
Unfortunately, ahmadinejad supporters cheated during this election, shut the SMS texting service down, beated and stabbed mir-hossein supporters in streets and threw tear gas into mir-hossein's HQ in tehran.
I hate it when democracy fails.
specially when it comes to a country with a history of embracing human rights and democracy for the past 2500 years.
I love Iran, i hate what it's become in the start of the 21th century.
Nom what is going to happen now?? I mean it seems pretty obvious to everyone that the election was seriously falsified. I mean 80 fucking percent??. Youd think if you were gonna rig an election you wouldnt be so fucking obvious about it. How will people react? Were getting nothing in the west..
he's been arrested?!? the neocons must be loving this - since they love rigging elections so much... and watching fascists keep control so they can say "i told ya so"
epilp is not here anymore. Politics are more complex than what you are saying though, you should know that. nothing is a byproduct of ONE thing.
an 80% victory in what was, by most accounts, a pretty even race MIGHT be a result of one thing...
It was more like 64% for Ahmedinejad.... Mousavi was heavily favored by the western media but Iran has a large conservative constituency outside of Tehran. That's why you heard that it was a tight race. I'm sure Tehran's polls tilted heavily in favor of Mousavi while the rest of the country tilted more towards Ahmedinajad.
I was rooting for Mousavi, but it is what it is....
just got back from a huge and bloody rally.
3 people have been killed by revolutionary guards so far in tehran.
I got tased in the arm by one of the guards, it hurts so f**kin bad.
the capital is a mess.
i disagree with some of the posts mentioned above:
ahmadinejad's terrible economic methods have caused a lot of small cities and rural areas in Iran to favor Mousavi too.
i went to the iranian section of Kurdistan last week,
the government has gave them rice and money as a bribe just one week before the elections, but they said they want jobs and ethnic justice and local political activists said almost 70% percent favor Mousavi while only 30% favor ahmadinejad.
also, the 80% mentioned above was the percentage of participants, almost 82% of registered voters participated, a much much higher number compared to any election in the islamic republic.
after 48 hours of stress and anger, i must say, this is one of the darkest days in the history of Iran.
I'm really not sure how we would have to explain this tragedy to future generations, specially considering the oil money wasted during this hardliner's ruling.
what an opportunity wasted....
Sorry, the %80 was one of the earlier reports. I know polling in Iran is notoriously difficult, but the polls I was reading were coming from state media and organizations inside Iran, and the numbers were not terribly divergent. There was a distinct cluster within 5 or 10 points showing Mousavi up by 10 in the final days. I mean I can read a poll, and theres really only one explanation for a 50 point divergence from polling to "results". I understand the kind of optic distortion we get here, but this seemed pretty fucking obvious to me. I mean I get there are cultural differences here, and maybe its absurd for me to have expected differently or to expect western standards for democracy. But Iran seemed like the one place were there at least the people held some real power, where the government was dependent upon, at least on the surface, a genuine sense of legitimacy from its population. I mean the leadership must understand that even if there isnt an outright revolution the exodus and despair of the intellectual class and the brain-drain that will result from this will absolutely cripple them. In 5 years when the the oil runs out theyll be zimbabwe.
who remembers the Venezuelean, cia coup against chavez in 2002.
the bbc.com pictures looks just like them.
Dude, what so now Mousavi is a CIA shill? What the fuck are you talking about?
Nomad, Ive been to some rough places in the world, seen some dark times, but its difficult to imagine the burden you must be baring right now. I pray you and your family are safe. Dont lose hope man, things can change.
One of the things I've read, which I'm sure many you have read, is that Mousavi's election monitors were refused entry to the polling areas. Just another damning piece.
nomadzilla: Stay safe over there, and don't lose hope. The world is watching.
I'll channel EP.
Hang <strike>Ayatollah</strike> Ali Hoseyni Khāmene’i.
The dude is weak. No political figure should say they'll take a back-burner approach to exercising power and then just randomly jump in to overturn the will of the people because he "simply does not like it."
I also dislike the idea of someone refusing to speak to someone based on geography. Iran may hate us all they want but they should at least attempt some form of communication with more liberal and perhaps accepting countries in the West.
And technically, Indonesia is west of the United States... doesn't that make it a "western country?" HAR HAR.
nomadzilla,
Thanks for the "live" update. We appreciate the "man on the street" view.
Stay safe.
not to derail or detract from nomadzilla's worthy cause... apropos the underlying bipolar rift between anti-west/'conservative' and pro-west/'liberal' realpolitiking (which is not exclusive to one middle eastern country), i wonder whether the so-called west, ethically, should have any say in this matter or whether they should just shut up and mind their own business after the blood baths, historic and recent, they have caused in the middle east. and now, suddenly we wish to sanitize everything with "benevolent globalization". so we, non-powers, then either pander piously to bearded zealots with pschyosexual complexes or swagger sluttishly for a bunch of repressed nouveau riche geeks. and sandwiched between both, our own locale of lynchanthropic power-hungry politicians.
but i like it when the EU starts stating concerns over 'irregularities'. behind the politically correct pallid complexion of the phrasing is such a cthonic abrasiveness.
To all non-Iranian friends:
please help spread the news of the outrage and disgust of the Iranian people with the election results. Unfortunately, the western media is not currently doing a good job of exposing this blatantly fraudulent election. This is not the will of the Iranian people; they are mostly in shock or despair, and the braver ones are being mercilessly beaten on the streets. PLEASE SHARE
P.S. I haven't slept in 3 days (I got used to not sleeping, but that was in design studios, not in the street)
I've been accepted to the masters program at the University of Toronto and UM - Ann Arbor, so i'm leaving for the US or Canada as soon as one of the respond to my visa. Many of my friends have had their exit permits canceled after the election, so i'm worried if i'll be able to get out of the country whenever my visa gets ready.
On a final note: I've been planning to leave Iran for a couple of years now, i've worked and studied hard to have the best options open for me, but now amid this coup in Iran, i HATE burning all the bridges behind me, and leaving the country forever. Westerners will never understand the pain and they should be grateful for this and help other nations reach that level of peace and democracy too. for starters, Obama shouldn't recognize Ahmadinejad's illegitimate presidency, and halt all talks. Israel should attack the Bushehr nuclear plant after the protests have ended. The International community should enforce tougher sanctions aimed at the iranian GOVERNMENT and not the PEOPLE.
I hear police sirens and screaming from the street.
peace to the world.
For anyone interested in knowing what is really happening in Iran right now, there is a very good up to the minute blog at huffington post:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/13/iran-demonstrations-viole_n_215189.html
Hundreds of opposition members and reformists including Mousavi have been have been arrested without charge and Ahmadinejad refuses to guarantee their safety. University staff, clergy and members of the government are resigning in protest, and 10s of thousands of people are in the streets and on the rooftops and being beaten by Police on motorbikes. None of this of course is being covered by Iranian state media, who is bumbling along as if the people cant see in the streets what is happening with their own eyes. Journalists and newspapers in Iran are being shut down and arrested, cellphone service and internet connections and even power to sections of Tehran have been cut and as we speak all foreign journalists are being told to leave. They are trying to cut the people off from the world.
Mousavi, under house arrest, has urged the guardian council to nullify the election and hold a new one, and pleaded with his supporters to non-violent protest against the suppression of their rights;
Today, I officially asked the guardian council (who oversees the elections in IR) in a letter to nullify the outcome of this election and I regard this (the nullification) as the only possible way for regaining the people's trust and cooperation with the government. I strongly urge you again to peacefully protest and defend your legal rights civilly and without confrontation and violence all over the country.
In the sincerest Nomad, no matter what happens your pleas are not in vain. The world has seen what has happened here, the leadership must now know just how angry the people have become, that they will no longer tolerate this, that they will not sit idly by as the democracy they have fought so hard for is made a mockery. No matter what is said on television, they will know that the people are no longer asleep, that the illusion no longer holds. Changes must be made. This is your moment in history, have courage. All of us are with you.
I know our media has its head up its ass, but as our correspondents witness what what is happening in the streets the coverage is improving. I know the Obama administration has not acknowledged either candidate, and Biden has specifically called the election into doubt, as has the Canadian government and many others. I hope you understand their restraint is meant to benefit you, that they must show discipline, to make it clear this is the choice of the people of Iran, so as not to give Ahmadinejad anyone to blame but himself.
I wish you safety nomad, to you and your friends and your family. If there is anything we can do, to spread information, help you communicate, you have only to ask.
Good luck.
An update, Zahra Rahnavard, Mir-Hossein Mousavi's wife, has appeared in public to urge supporters to march on Valiasr Ave. tomorrow and to a general strike on tuesday:
Mousavi calls on all Reformist supporters to take part in a PEACEFUL MARCH & MASS DEMONSTRATION in 20 cities across Iran on Monday, June 15 (doshanbeh, 25 Khordad) at 17:00 to denounce the election results as fraud. He has applied for a license to protect the safety of protestors.
The Tehran location is Valiasr Avenue, from Valiasr Square to Tajrish Square. The locations in other cities are listed below.
Mousavi has also called for a NATIONAL STRIKE on Tuesday, June 16 (Khordad 26) and asked all those who contest the results to close their shops, businesses, etc. and for employees to not go to work that day.
Communication is critical to success for a large turnout, so please forward this to every Iranian you know. The statement is verified on Ghalam News (ghalamnews.ir), the official site of the Mousavi campaign (site rasmi setad).
Calling for Israel to bomb Iran is not a credible plea, enforcing tougher sanctions on the government without translating against the people is not feasible.as hearfelt as nomadzilla's pleas are, I suspect an opposition in ways
as one sided ,as themed, as the gov. Y can't one be against state cruelty in Iran AND Israel? Its rash selfishness to bring israel into this
forgive the double posting, I saw namhenderson's post before I knew it was a forum thread...
I was in iran for 3 weeks, coming back last weekend. I attended a moussavi rally in esfahan, watched the 30 min tv spots for both leading candidates, as well as the debates between ahmadinejad and moussavi, and moussavi and rezai (one of the less prominent candidates), and vicariously (through translation) caught endless pieces of discussions about the election in tehran, esfahan, a small town outside of esfahan, shiraz, and yazd.
it was widely agreed that moussavi made a poor showing on every front. a lot of people who had been on the fence were steered away from moussavi by his debate performances. his base was more anti-ahmadinejad than pro-moussavi, but this leaves little incentive for voters in the center. in contrast, ahmadinejad has all the conservative base, almost the entire rural vote due to some successes with social programs (which are more substantial than "rice handouts a week before the election" mentioned above), and segments of the center.
a close friend, an elderly intellectual and sometimes journalist in tehran, predicted a 30% take for moussavi a week and a half before the vote.
another person I know was stationed in a rural voting center, and about 80% of the votes counted there were for ahmedinajad. I'm not saying there wasn't any vote rigging. but from what I saw, the results are plausible as valid.
and I agree with quibble's last point: I don't know how someone can love a place and at the same time wish for a third party to come bomb it. sanctions inevitably are on the people. the sanctions in iraq only made the population more dependent on saddam, solidifying his power.
Did you folks even read my pleas?
about Israel: "Israel should attack the Bushehr nuclear plant after the protests have ended."
1. I didn't call for Israel to attack Iran, they can't do this even if they wanted too. But they can attack one nuclear plant, and they should. They are scared out of their pants from the Bushehr plant, and so are we. As a proud but struggling Iranian, i rather see billions of dollars worth nuclear facilities be bombed than having it in the hands of ahmadinejad using it as a tool to justify his purpose.
2. Having israel attack this nuclear plant during the crisis would only empower Ahmadinejad and divert domestic and international attention from his fraud re-election to a foreign air-strike.
And thanks for everyone's warm words of encouragement and support, as hard as it is to see some people undermine our cause and call the elections " plausible as valid", it's still good to see people with totally diverse backgrounds and cultures embracing and supporting freedom, peace and democracy when they see the injustice and corruption.
As the great Martin Luther king Jr. said: “Justice denied anywhere diminishes justice everywhere.”
nomadzilla,
I'm not trying to undermine anyone's cause, or question your love of your home. I may have a better sense of your burdens than most. I did however, question, and I still question, some of the means by which you wish for certain ends.
Additionally, I think it is important for those of us outside of your election to keep a balanced eye. I have no direct interest in the outcome of the election. early on I leaned heavily toward mousavi due to the artist-architect bit, but as I got more familiar with him, it became more of a lesser of evils equation.
one at least has to question whether mousavi would be better in tactical terms of protecting iran's interests. khatami staked a lot of political capital on overtures to the west, to be rewarded with inclusion in the axis of evil. I hear this question often: obama wants to be friendly now, what about the next guy? I can't look you straight in the face and tell you that we should be trusted.
"supporting freedom, peace and democracy when they see the injustice and corruption." this is a big part of the problem-- where is the damning evidence that backs mousavi up? what injustice have we actually been shown? everything I hear is, curious yes, but hardly conclusive. strange timings of returns compared to years past (though this year much of the process was computerized for the first time, I was told), and statistical patterns that deviate from past elections-- things of this sort. and everything else is hearsay rumor.
what evidence have we been shown? next to nothing. so we are to take sides based on...? however, there ARE very real agendas floating around out here with designs on iran, that would very much like to capitalize on instability in iran, and the more that we are willing to regurgitate unsubstantiated soundbites, the bigger the storm they can create.
as I talk to more and more people about the irregularities, the more questions I want answered. however, it's not impossible that this election was iran's 2004 u.s. election. and you guys are likely doing what we should have done. but that's the thing about pinning political power to majorities-- sometimes they're not what you wish they were.
bombing iranian property is tantamount to bombing iran, however you phrase it. i don't see your refutation and i think going on about this item in particular does detract from your more credible concerns.
furthermore, i don't see why israel's fears should be entangled in yours. would you really procure the services of paedophile against a bully picking on you in your playground? the enemy of your enemy need not be your friend; now you sound like the lebanese in the late seventies and eighties (and many lebanese are still stuck in the eighties) during the civil war throes. and even well before..they were/and still are external power service drafters par excellence fucking themselves up.
be wary, scary hairy larry...
we have also seen many iranian shah-era islamic-republic-rejects playing the same sort of game as banished anti-saddamites have in the US and europe...i.e. trying to incite the west against the iranian goverment without paying heed to the catastrophic effects this can have on the iranian population back home. some can very well be playing this for their personal gain, as we've also seen with iraq. therefore, i second subtect's caution in a single minded advocation of one over the other.
to note, martin luther king supported zionism which has proven to be nothing less than an evil for a whole group of another people. a mentality of absolute advocation, of idolatory, must be necessarily blind to the complex layering of contradictions and to the persistent possibility of human ethical and rational 'fallability'.
george bush was made president to blur OUR lines of reality and fantasy
If Israel bombs any property of Iran (including the nuclear power plant) that would be tantamount to boming Iran. there will be retaliation guaranteed and Iranians will instantly support the government no matter what. Don't think for a second that just because the Iranians are frustrated with their government that they would want to be in cahoots with the Israelis.
The Israelis should just shut the fuck up for once and deal with their own problems in their back yard. It's interesting that they would now at a time like this release a poll like the one where more than half of the Israel supports boming Iran. Netanyahu just proved yesterday that he is not interested in peace with the Palestinians much in evidence to the fact that he blatantly claimed that he would support a ghetto state where Palestine would be nothing more than a series of bantustans with no control of its own resources. That is not independence and that is not anything close to peace.
bush would have made a first-rate bad actor turned bad politician, if he had the muscles.
obama would be just a perrrrrfect holloywoodish denzel washington-esque actor. forthright and articulate...but not very versatile, i can't imagine him demanding one hundred million billion trillion kazillion dollars while stroking a hairless cat. Moses, this is not a surprise or exclusive to the U.S., as oratory underlies both politics and theatre and goes back to the greek respect for rhetoric's ability to convince people (or sucker them in, if you're a cynic). as such performance of theatre was political and politics was theatrical.
@Quibble - american politics derives from the american house-hold shrine = the television.
its like debating whos more beautiful liz taylor or jenifer aniston, the whole debate of comparison is pathetic, if not pleb like. besides liz tayler wins hands down. .... except it doesnt matter, becuase its just tv.
i have been watching what's going on in iran with great interest and hope that the young progressive minds of that country can come together to create meaningful reform in that country despite the power of a clearly dishonest dictator. at the same time, the chauvinism and stereotyping displayed by a few in this thread does make it harder to be sympathetic.
while this is bad news, my (simplistic?) understanding would not lead me to believe that ahmadinejad is, in any way, a dictator. he's a president, subject to the role that iran has in place for what the president can and can't do, in a country where the clerics hold more power than he does. isn't this true?
@Subtect, QSH & Med: I fully understand what you are saying:
1. There is hard evidence exposing this blatantly fraudulent election, and western governments are making strategic decisions based on these evidence coming from within the ministry of interior as well as the revolutionary guards. The problem is that since the totalitarian media does not allow such info to spread out, and since western and arabic media have been cut from the sources and are not even allowed to capture the street protests and have been ordered to leave the country, no one outside Iran can really be sure they are receiving the real deal.
The amount of gossip surrounding the events happening during the past 48 hours have been massive. And to be honest, alot of the public reaction has been based on what they hear in the street, but that's exactly how the 1979 revolution started off.
2. Regarding my Israel comment, I might say things here that are based on my frustration and anger towards the regime, but if i can tell you just one thing that has changed in the mind of most Iranians in the process of the elections it's that for the first time after the islamic revolution in 1979, the majority of Iranians DO NOT trust the regime in any ways. Reformation of the regime has officially ended in a disaster. Iranians are less afraid of an Israeli threat than the daily threat caused by Ahmadinejad. These are the words of one of Iran's prominent politicians: " The holy regime of the islamic republic of Iran is not holy anymore. The Islamic republic of Iran isn't a republic anymore. The Islamic regime of Iran isn't even Islamic anymore. A dictatorship is what is left after a regime abuses the %82 participation of it's people in an election."
3. If i had to chose between a global bully (US&Israel) and a domestic bully (Ahmadinejad), i would definitely go for the global bully. for two reasons: A. I've seen the hatred, savagery and cruelty of the domestic bully. But the irrationality of this bully compared to the global bully is immense. Let me put it this way, In the US, a country still struggling with racial issues, a black president has a chance of being elected and the will of the people makes this possible. In Iran, on the other hand, as long as the supreme leader disapproves of someone, even the 82% of participants can't change a damn thing, even if the candidate in question is a former PM and loyal advocate of the regime. B. The global bully knows how to use its power with the least damage caused, the domestic bully destroys anything in its path. The global bully embraces science, knowledge, freedom of speech and freedom of press, the domestic bully embraces militarism, extreme Islamism and theological irrationality.
I attended an elite religious school in Tehran for seven years, the same school Ahmadinejad's two sons attended, so i know what i'm talking about when i say i'm more afraid of ahmadinejad's ideology than netanyahu's, at least when it comes to Iran's national interests.
On a final note: If i'm expressing myself on this website, it's just a mean of informing you folks about what is happening in my country, firsthand.
It's not really a means of opening a discussion or debate about the internal affairs of Iran. Each and every one of you have enough problems in your own country that sticking your nose into other peoples business wouldn't really be the best way of interacting with other nations. But caring about each others pains and sorrows is what makes us all the one single race. And I appreciate your support and concern.
Leaving for a banned demonstration with Mousavi in central Tehran,
If anything i wrote above doesn't make sense to you it might have two reasons: one. You're too far from the reality of Iran, or two: I might still have tear gas in my head.
AN OPEN LETTER TO THE WORLD:
“Human beings are members of a whole, In creation of one essence and soul. If one member is afflicted with pain, Other members uneasy will remain. If you have no sympathy for human pain, The name of human you cannot retain.” - Saadi
This week Iranians turned out in record numbers not seen since the beginning of the Iranian revolution to change their current President Mahmood Ahmadinejad. Their willingness to exercise their democratic right was both historic and uncommon in the Middle East. Iranians longed for change the same way people in the United States, and indeed worldwide, longed for a new beginning after the Bush years. They were tired of an increasingly delusional President who has thrown their country into economic turmoil and portrayed their country as a conflict seeking entity in the Middle East. But today the same Iranian regime that has denied a dialogue with the world, denied human rights, denied democracy, denied the Holocaust, is blatantly denying the will of its people by committing massive election fraud to reelect Mahmood Ahmadinejad, and arresting journalists and opposition leaders in broad daylight. Accepting this deception will be costly not only for the people of Iran but also for the people of the Middle East, with far reaching consequences worldwide. As you read these words, the people in Iran have taken to the streets in nationwide protests. Despite brutal government suppression tactics the Iranian people are courageously fighting for their rights. As antiriot police batons crush the bones of demonstrators whose only protest is election fraud, Iranians are screaming for the world to hear them: WE DENOUNCE MAHMOOD AHMADINEJAD! The people of Iran now ask for your support! We do not expect you to fight our struggle but to help us fight it. We expect people worldwide to put pressure on their governments and politicians not to accept the legitimacy of the Iranian elections and the fraudulent presidency of Mahmood Ahmadinejad. Democratic societies worldwide must not leave the Iranian people alone now that they have risen to the challenge. Instead they need to align their policies with the will of the Iranian people. Friends, we ask you not to let 70 million people in Iran be taken hostage. Any government that accepts Mahmood Ahmadinejad as the new president of Iran has betrayed the Iranian people, endangered world peace, and has no sympathy for human pain.
Another update, its now being reported that Supreme Leader Khamenei is calling for a probe into the election. Whether this is just a trap or whether its a sign that the protests and Mousavis pleas are having some effect is not yet clear. But hopefully, at the very least, it means some calm and non-violent channels are being opened.
Another note, I fully understand your frustration nomad, and your wariness of Ahmadinejads nuclear intentions, but for anyone to destroy Irans nuclear facilities by air is just too dangerous a prospect to really consider. Even just on a humanitarian basis, the potential for fallout in urban areas and a potential regional war that might follow puts potentially hundreds of thousands of lives at risk.
We can really only hope for a political solution to this.
Word on the street is that there will be an election probe.
I've been to Iran many times . It's an incredible nation with a lot of potential. And the greatest thing about Iran is what a sophisticated society it is as apposed to western views that show it as an ass-backwards mirror of Afghanistan. It just isn't the case. I don't want you to think for a second that I am a supporter of Ahmedinajad. I would have easily voted for Mousavi if I had the chance and I was very optimistic about Khatami's vision for Iran. But with Ahmedinijad, I think he has been very erratic, flakey about the most important issue which is the economy, and I think he has been a political menace to the opposition. He reminds me a lot of Bush actually. The actual system isn’t terrible -- The only thing is that I really wish that Khameini and the Ayatollahs cede power to the elected officials and settle for a role similar to the US supreme court. That’s really what needs to happen. And forget the Shah – he was nothing more than an authoritarian dictator who ran a mafia-like police state. Remember that the people brought the Shah down.
Iran is not developing nuclear weapons – this has been proven time and again by inspectors even the Bush administration. Other than that they have every right to develop nuclear power for civilian purposes. But again, we are no one to be dictating their national security needs. Remember, it’s Iran who has been threatened time and again by the Americans and the Israelis. They have every right to defend themselves. If Israel keeps making that claim and idiotic American politicians keep flinging that around, then Iran can be doing it as well.
Everyone knows that there is far too much at stake for Israel to make such a stupid move. Litterally, the Middle East would blow up like we've never seen before.
Let's think about the chain reaction this would cause:
- Israel attacks the nuclear facility,
- Iran retaliates on all fronts launching missiles at Israel,
- Iran would unleash Hizbollah in Lebanon
- Obviouslly the US would support Israel and have their thumbs up their asses on how to participate in a way that doesn't look flagrantly anti-Arab/Islamic
- Israel would need airspace to the east to battle with Iran but Iraq and Syria would refuse. Turkey is the only option but there would be massive resistance within turkey to refuse. Turkey gets thrown into the battle and so too does NATO.
- Iraq refuses any participation and probably claim neutrality but cant avoid the US presence since they have become a puppet state of the US.
- The Iraqis would instantly drop all support for the US and demand all military, civilian, and dipolomatic staff out of Iraq. Remember, most Iraqis are Shi'as and vehemently would be in favor of Iran.
- Egypt and Jordan would suspend all diplomatic and political contact with Israel. In all likelihood peace treaties would be scrapped.
- In further retaliation, Iran would launch airstrikes and missile strikes at all gulf nations oil shipping virtually crippling any shipment of oil abroad.
- Since the Israelis would be involved in a long distance affair with Iran, things at home could get REAL ugly at home with the Palestinians starting a massive revolt.
- Iran would eventually lose to basically, Israel, US, and NATO) but the lasting implications would be so catestrophic and so irreparable that things would be even ever so worse than before. Virtually no one int he Arab/Islamic world would ever trust the US, and the whole battle will just strengthen the hands of dictators throughout. The US would come out of this one smelling like pure dogshit.
Nomad, it's very difficult to take some of your writing seriously when you as a supposedly "proud Iranian" wants the Israelis to bomb your country. I understand your frustration as I feel like the Iranians have been denied a chance by the religious establishment too!
But hey since you seem to have pledged your allegiance to Israrel, I'm sure they will treat all Iranians great! I mean look at the Palestinians and how well they are doing!
@med. : OK, i see your point, but since my comment and your response to it is only derailing from the initial discussion which is MIR-HOSSEIN MOOSAVI and the fraud re-election of Ahmadinejad; I'll take my comment back, at least for now.
After the current turmoil I'll try to explain why i think its in the long-term national interest of Iran if Israel attacked the Bushehr nuke facility.
But for now, please stick to the main discussion and sorry if my comment distracted you folks from the cause i'm literally fighting for.
med, I am totally with you on the Ayatollah. I don't think Iran can do very much either way with him being the political creeper that he is.
If there's any parallel, look at how long it took Europe to mostly separate itself from the Pope. For some countries, this was a struggle that lasted over a thousand years.
the clearest explanation I've seen so far:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/15/iran.elections.qa/
A) The president does indeed have great public support in Iran, Taheri said, adding that "I'm sure he did win the election but it's impossible he won 63 percent of the vote. The results probably exaggerated the scale of his support."
According to official results, Ahmadinejad won in all regions and among all classes and ages -- again, something that Taheri said was unlikely, "but I can't prove it."
Had he not exaggerated the scale of his victory, Taheri said, unlike in previous presidential elections, it is possible there wouldn't be the outcry there is now. "Many Iranians feel insulted by the results because they feel their vote didn't count. Everybody knows, for instance that Ahmadinejad is unpopular in cities but he still won the vote there. That is why people are so angry."
Another Iran expert Karim Sadjadpour agreed, saying he believed this was "a stolen election."
"There are a lot of signs there were major improprieties. First of all there were 40 million votes cast and just two hours after the polls had closed they announced Ahmadinejad's victory: and these votes are hand counted in Iran...
Sadjadpour, an associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, added: "Another example I give is that (opposition leader Mir Hossein) Moussavi, who is an ethnic Azeri Turk, lost the province of Iranian Azerbaijan. This is the equivalent of Barack Obama losing the African American vote to John McCain in 2008."
link about the probe:
http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/jun/15/khamenei-orders-probe-into-poll-fraud.htm
However, this note about 2005 might be relevant (from AP):
Hours earlier, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei directed one of Iran's most influential bodies, the Guardian Council, to examine the claims. But the move by Khamenei — who had earlier welcomed the election results — had no guarantee it would satisfy those challenging Ahmadinejad's re-election or quell days of rioting after Friday's election that left parts of Tehran scarred by flames and shattered store fronts.
The 12-member Guardian Council, made up of clerics and experts in Islamic law and closely allied to Khamenei, must certify election results and has the apparent authority to nullify an election. But it would be an unprecedented step. Claims of voting irregularities went before the council after Ahmadinejad's upset victory in 2005, but there was no official word on the outcome of the investigation and the vote stood.
getting uglier:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_iran_election
be safe, nomad
some other digits:
Egypt 2004: Mubarak 88%
Syria 2007: Assad Jr. 98%
Tunis 2009: Ben Ali 94.5&
Algeria 2009: Bouteflika 90.2%
i won't list the middle eastern countries that don't hold elections, too boring.
64% seems, by comparison, like they've been quite generous to the opposition.
Quibble, I've lived in a country like that where "elections" would be held and the incumbent (usually a military dictator) would receive about 99% of the vote. The fact that these protests are even happening are definitely enviable to my standards. Wheres in the country I lived in, you would be shot and killed imediately and the people were so beaten down and so compelled to accept the status quo that they lost their resolve for freedom.
I envy the Iranians. They took down the Shah when he started to act like an asshole and now they are speaking out in the massed against the unelected body. I'm hoping that the current government sees this and acts upon it. If they know better they will know that throughout history Iranians don't like to be bullied for too long.
god bless wikipedia. lots of good info in here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_presidential_election,_2009
let me give you some firsthand news (At least i haven't seen this on western TV): On Tuesday all of Tehran's Universities and the grand Bazaar will be closed.
If this movement had a proper leader (like the grand ayatollah Khomeini) it would have led to yet another revolution. But with Moosavi as the opposition leader the most i could hope for is reducing the chance of Iran becoming a tyrannic military government during the next four years.
The guards are firing tear gas into the alley i live in from the main street as i'm writing, Minutes ago i saw one person getting his foot broke by the bassijis (Pro-government guerrillas).
I'll post more as the situation develops.
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