I've been there. On two different occasions, with two different bosses. One of them I could only take for a year, but the other I learned to live with and even thrive, and stayed there for over three years.

You need to ask yourself three questions:
1. Is the quality of work good enough to justify the tough working conditions?
If the work is really, really good, then I think it's worth sticking it out for a year or more. You'll learn a lot, and it will be a great addition to your portfolio. Treat it as a kind of boot camp. But if the work is just so-so, then you need to leave the firm. This will sound a bit reductive, but that kind of abuse for mediocre work isn't worth it (though I'd say that for amazing work, it's probably worth it. This is why people go to work for Koolhaas, despite the brutal working conditions.)

2. Can you see a way to shine in the position?
In some demanding offices, the hard-headed principal actually gets people to perform better. Some employees give up, but those that figure out the logic of their boss's demands end up really doing well. Are there people in the office who seem to meet this guy's expectations, or exceed them? (If so, then he's simply demanding and difficult, but can actually inspire good work. If not, then he's just a primadonna who can't be satisfied.) If you can see a way to shine, it may be worth sticking around.

3. Can you handle it?
If the answer to the first two questions is yes, then you have to ask yourself this third question. Everyone has different tolerances for difficult bosses, and for long work hours. Some people do fine, and shrug off the abuse. Others seethe and let it eat them up inside. Which kind of person are you? If you can shrug it off and take the attitude that it's him, not you, you might do ok there.

One thing I can guarantee: the office environment will not get better, and the boss will not change. However, YOU can get better in that situation. You need to weigh very seriously the benefits of being there against the downsides. If they do anything less than amazing work, I don't think that kind of abuse is worth it; you should leave. If you don't see a way to thrive, then it's not worth it and you should leave.

In my experience, the only way to please that kind of boss is to be both deferential and amazing. First, give him what he wants, and then show him an alternative that exceeds his expectations, every time.

Of course, there's also the kamikaze approach: consistently call him out on his monster behavior. Challenge his criticisms. You may get fired, and he will probably write you off as a difficult employee. But there's a slim chance he'll begin to see his behaviour for what it is.

I've been there too... Farwest has some really great points.

I agree - it's not worth being treated like crap by a mediocre designer.

If the work is fantastic and you want to stay there, make it known that certain behavior is not ok. If you do good work, there's no reason for anyone to treat you like crap... you have to know when to say no to something and draw boundaries without sounding like you are unwilling to do something... the boss will still be an asshole, but at least you know you've taken care of yourself. just remember it is not you, it's him.

Personally, I think it's never worth working for a jerk, no matter how good the work is.

Come on, fellas. It's not worth being treated like crap by anybody.

Where is it written that we have to put up with bad behavior just because somebody has design talent?

indeed. just because you have talent does not give you the right to treat everyone else like they do not matter.

Well of course no one has any right to treat an employee like crap. But if the work is emotionally/intellectually rewarding - or the pay is really good - that might be reason enough to put up with being treated like crap.

For a time, anyway, as farwest's excellent post above says.

bookie, you have a 4-year degree which probably means you'll be heading to grad school? So you kind of have a built-in deadline for only being there a year or two.

But if you are truly miserable, and feel a pit of stress in your stomach every day when you wake up, then leave. No job is worth your health, mental, physical, or both.

For the most part, we choose our employers. We do this for a variety of reasons: money, quality of work, fame, comfort. Some of us decide that working for an asshole is worth it because there are payoffs in other ways.

If you don't like a job, move on. Some bosses are assholes; some are not. Getting indignant about those who are is a waste of time. Sitting there stewing about the injustices of a boss's cruelty is pointless inaction.

I don't quite get this idea that it's ok to accept abuse if the work experience adds to one's resume - to me that's about the same as working for free so you can say you worked for a starchitect.

I accept people's right to make their own career decisions -- but when people accept such abuse (whaever the reason) it creates conditions in which such behavior is deemed acceptable -- it's not.

a bully with design ability is still a bully.

i hate backseat cad drivers especially when they get verbally loud with you over the way you cad,then treats you like your some high school kid, then tells you to change all your settings to their way, then feels the need to act like king shit and blame screw ups on you when he was the guy that screwed it up in the first place, then tells you that there might be mistakes because he did it tooo fast and for you to fix them after the fact.........wtf.... i don't think this is gonna last long...

If people would get some balls and stand up for themselves NO ONE would have to work for a jack ass like that.

There is absolutely no reason and no need for being treated like crap. I'd say the whole situation is perversive if you put up with that. Spending time working on weirdos is never worth your efforts even if you have some personal reasons to do that.

In the early nineties jobs were hard to find and my experience was that 60-80 hour weeks for low pay was normal. Somehow we all had lives outside of work anyway. Even in the situations where the boss was crazy and my friends told me to quit, I benefited from sticking it out. It is intense but if you can handle it and maintain your own self respect you'll be ahead of the pack in the future.

I would rather be in your position than mine anyday - 3 months unemployed in SF. I worked in situations similar to your, stuck it out
and always prevailed in the long run. In this economy, we are no longer in a position to have it our way. We got to take what we can get.

here's my two cents:

i was in a similar situation not less than a couple weeks ago. i moved to a completely different city to be with my girlfriend, and after several months of searching finally found a job in what seemed to be laid back office working with someone who seemed to be a pretty good guy.

as it turns out, he was a micromanager, was somewhat arrogant and tough to be around. he could be down right abusive to some people; not so much to me although i certainly got my fair share. he seemed to set people up to fail in their assignments and was complete control freak. i had heard a lot of bad stories about previous employees really losing it with him and walking out of the office and i didn't want to burn any bridges myself so i tried to keep my cool. i justified putting up with this because i saw it as temporary, and because it allowed me to be with someone that i cared about. some of the work was great, some of it was pretty mediocre. my previous job that i voluntarily left was amazing and i've always second guessed that decision to a point.

in any case, it ended fine when i was laid off. no bridges burned which i was happy about. and i'm happier for it; even though no one is hiring, i think looking for something better is a better use of my time eight hours a day. my girlfriend and i just broke up this week, and while that is just the icing on the cake for me right now, if i would've still been in that office when that happened i probably would've had a nervous break down. somehow it is easier to cope when not having to be around people who suck.

i'd be careful about quitting my job right now if i were you. i don't know where you are but there isn't much going on in terms of hiring. you might be jobless for a year. however i would also add that it is really difficult to be happy in life if you're not happy at your job. your employers and co-workers are the people you spend most of your time with and you depend upon for your livelihood, often emotional as well as economic and professional. if it is really bringing you down and you have a little money saved up, maybe it is worth finding something better to do with your time.

the strongest argument so far is to be fortunate enough to have a job (a third of our office are redundant from next week).

Those in management often achieve by being driven personalities. No good argument can be made for putting up with bad behaviour especially if it results in physical and mental anguish. You can address the way you interact with your boss , what you take on board and what you pass on.

Management styles are varied as is the way in which you adapt or confront.

hey look its BOTS. how's it going chap?

hi le B. and all archinecters. I've been a long time away. Trying to keep my job in the UK while the 'excrement hits the air conditioning!'.

My boss has turned into a slave driver because of the tough economy - most understand this necessity - my team is currently racking up 60+ hours a week trying to bid for the government building schools for the future programme. At least in these testing times the government still always pays.

you know - I think there's a difference between simply being worked hard and being abused. I really don't know bookie's exact situation, but it sounds like abuse.

personally, I won't put up with assholes anymore... there was a time in my career when I would have... but even in this economy I'd rather be unemployed than work for a shit-head (client, architect, coworker, whatever). Even though I built my strongest network by sticking up for co-workers in crummy offices, I really wish I hadn't won people over this way.

These jerks stay in power because they play people off of each other - if you decide to stay, you need to win over your coworkers (not by spreading malcontent, but by being helpful to them) and help them to stick up for themselves. The danger here is that your boss could fire a large chunk of the staff if he starts to feel like he's losing control... but in my experience as long as you have people on your side, it'll make life there much easier - and you'll gain lasting friends in the profession.

however - if you can get yourself out - get the hell out.

It's telling that this guy hired you from far away; The really bad firms in my town can't get local candidates because they are known to treat folks poorly. If your local economy is such that your current boss has work, there could well be other jobs available in your new city. I would suggest you start a discrete job search and try to find a better job.

I'd take a slightly different tack than some of the people here:

The best and most famous people I've worked for, in both film and architecture, have also been the most demanding and difficult. They haven't achieved great work by just being nice. They're demanding and difficult because they have a vision.

Everyone's right that no one should put up with an asshole boss. But if that asshole happens to be a genius, well then I say let them be an asshole. I wouldn't begrudge Corbu or Koolhaas or FLW for being jerks. (Not saying that bookie's boss is a genius....)

I'm just saying that IMHO being a genius allows a person to be a little bit of an asshole. (However, being an asshole does not make one a genius. A lot of architects haven't quite grasped this idea.)

maybe i'm sick and twisted, but a rough economy cleans the profession up...socialism does nothing for production, happy PR comments do nothing for production, and not knowing how to produce does nothing for your self. honestly, fuck you if you think working 60 hours in an office is hard, try 30-40 hours in the cold on scaffolding. mental stress versus physical stress, those physically stress can't even be mental about it...

whether, idiot who is demanding, or mad genius who wants you on his page, you will learn so much more out of this situation than if you were in a comfortable situation.

my first architect employer told me for 2 months i was a moron, offerend me double after my 3 month internship was up to come back, but then said, hey get a degree it is about you.

insanity is a beautiful thing in this profession, it's what makes the best the best.

farwest1 - has many many valid points.

at your limits you find out who you really are, and for this I thank all my insance employers i've ever had. i don't even understand how people can accept a comfortable existence in the workplace.

farwest1 The best and most famous people I've worked for, in both film and architecture, have also been the most demanding and difficult.

yes, but that does not make all animals cats, even if all cats are animals. there is no principle that states all assholes are also genuises.
furthermore, it might be in the nature of some 'genuises' to be incapable of giving those who work with/for them, as capable as they are in taking. i think that your, farwest's, questions in her/his initial reply post is much more substantial since it recognizes that deciding whether you can get something in return and determining how worthwhile that is requires an individual act of balancing and assessment...and no inscribed dicta.

in my case, i knew that with my first job, i did not initially want to exceed 2 years although i got to 3 for justifiable reasons. with this new job, i probably won't exceed a year to two years. but then again, i also consider it important not to stay in one place for too long; when i die, i'll be staying put for ever more.

farwest - the best (and most famous) designer I ever worked for was also the best person I've ever worked for. The environment was very relaxed, and somehow I managed to get far more accomplished during the week than I ever did working for slavedrivers. Everyone worked very hard in that office, and yet no one seemed to mind since we enjoyed what we were doing. He was very demanding, but also cared very much about the health and happiness of his staff. after that experience, I realized that it is possible to have a positive work environment and still produce excellent work. Since then I've seen no point in working for an asshole.

i understand what farwest is saying, but i've worked with famous people (professors at least) who were demanding but still treated me with a measure of dignity and respect. i've also worked with demanding people in the professional world on great projects. while they expected a lot work wise, on a personal level they treated me like a human being. an employer can demand his vision of high quality work and still show some understanding and mentorship when you are going through a tough time, when you make a mistake, or when you just don't know something. long hours are one thing, but i draw the line with people who are just abusive and lack the ability to empathize with others.

There is no excuse for abusive and demeaning behaviors from ANYONE. Such behaviors have nothing to do with yielding better results, but only a display of power. Will such person ever talk to a client this way? He or she sure exercises his/her self-control then, but why not towards you?

People treat the way you let them. They treat you without respect because they feel they can. I am not asking you to quit, but only to figure out how to make yourself stronger.

I had a demanding boss once told me, "Everyone in the office I could push a bit further, except XYZ, who has a clear boundary, and I respect that." XYZ became her favorite employee.

I often am amused by our design profession. Even though we are out of schools, our visions and mentality often stay within the white towers, disconnected from the rest of the world: we pet on our shoulders on the designs we built and judged, and we accept the "artistic temperament" as a part of design package.

Abusive designer may achieve fame in a trendy moment, but never greatness in longevity.

you and your coworkers could prop up corpses with stakes to make it look as though you are on duty and then sneak away in the night. this is what the spartacus did.

I'm wondering if this thread doesn't beg the question: Is there a way when you're interviewing to determine or get a feel for management styles that you might be working under?

jhooper -- an intriguing question. Firm's generally have a chance to check references on candidates when they're hiring. Candidates need to do the same. Some thoughts:

a) When I'm hiring, it's not uncommon for candidates to ask to spend a few minutes with some people in the firm around their same age -- this is more common as the discussions approach the "offer" stage. We usually comply with this request (mainly because we're confident our folks will speak highly of the firm) and we set up the conversation to take place without any managers present. It never hurts to ask a prospective employer to afford you this same courtesy. Just tell them you really are intrigued by the firm and would love to learn more about its culture from the people who are in the trenches.

b) Also, ask specifically about whose team you'll be working on if hired. Ask to meet the leader of that team if the relationship starts getting serious.

c) Check with your friends around town -- architecture's a pretty small world -- more than likely, somebody you know will know the firm, or know somebody who knows the firm. Most people would be willing to share their views with you.

Hope this helps.

jhooper, I have often wondered that myself. Anyone have ideas???

by the way ... what I suggest above is by no means foolproof.

Just like hiring a new employee, only to find his "evil twin" is who shows up for work on the first day, investigations of the type I outline above can only give you a peek behind the veil. A determined employer or manager can disguise the real situation without too much difficulty. But, research of the sort I suggest is still better than nothing.

file -

I'm glad to hear that you take those steps when you're hiring. The firm I'm working for now just had someone walk me through the office.

I guess at some level it's a bit of a crapshoot. How do you ask in an interview "how many passive-agressive-pain-in-the-butt people do you have here?" Although it sounds like your process does sound like a very good thing to do.

-- you can't ask ... but, if it's an architecture firm, you can count on there being a fairly high percentage of that personality type -- especially the "passive-agressive" sort. Tends to go with the territory.

Bookie, ask yourself a couple of questions:

First, how badly do you need this job? Some bosses never treat employees as peers, but rather as permanent underlings. The job market is horrible, and this may be your only viable employment opportunity. Are you willing to tolerate the boss to keep the job?

Two, have you considered whether your work performance may merit some criticism, or if your style of working, setting up drawings, noting information, etc, may not fit boss' expectations? Be honest.

Three, can you constructively learn from this boss to improve your own abilities? I once worked for a nightmare of a minor "famous architect" principal-owner, but stuck it out and learned both 1) difficulty of architectural practice as a small practioner; 2) don't let being an architect destroy you personally (his life was a mess); 3) my tolerance level regarding my work environment.

Four, consider whether boss is freaking out about economy and bad financial situation of his own firm. That worry could easily make boss less tolerant of employees' slip-ups or inability to execute instructions. When fees are tight, or office cash-flow jeopardized, there is little margin remaining for overstudying design, for slow drawing production, for time inefficiencies, etc. Might be a good learning experience, no matter how excrutiating it is in real life.

Five, you're still relatively young and inexperienced, at least to other architects who have twenty plus years of experience. I've been working since mid-70s; I've been in a similar position with difficult bosses, and know it can be painful and humbling. Think hard about your tolerance level for a difficult employment situation during difficult economic times.

Been there myself and overstayed my welcome.

Quit now.

My personal advice is that it's better to quit, before the pot boils over and makes a mess.

I was in the same working environment for a year, it was all fun and games at first, then the true colors started to bleed through. I took the abuse and bottled my emotions inside, and when the principal personally attacked me, I lost it. Literally. Let's just say I was surprised that I was not fired right on the spot.

Although it felt great to put him in his place! I can't agree with what I did. I don't. I regret it. But I would never do that again. I burnt a viable bridge that I could have crossed later if needed. I quit 2 weeks later.

Quit gracefully, with respect and on good means.

my .02

This is a difficult situation to be in, having been in a similar situation myself.

The thing that got me through it was really doing the best possible job I could and reminding myself that I was an still an experienced, talented professional even if I was not being treated as such. As personal as the comments and derisive remarks seemed, I always tried to listen to them objectively and not take things personally. When I left work at the end of the day, I did everything in my power to not think about it. Occasionally, I would need to vent -- usually after a particularly irritating incident.

Many, many times I thought about quitting, but I couldn't due to the lack of other jobs and the need to have an income. Eventually, the firm ran out of work and I was let go. I don't think I could have been happier about a lay off than then.

There were two bosses and they were both jerks. They were not just demanding in a professional way, but personally insulting. Every move and decision was scrutinized and questioned, even though the work I was doing was something I had a good deal of past experience with. Although my position was that of project manager, much of the time, I was trusted about as much as a CAD drafter who was trained while in prison. These people behaved in the least professional manner I had ever witnessed: yelling at clients, yelling at contractors, yelling at consultants, throwing temper tantrums because they could not type a word correctly, demeaning interns, etc. It was pretty unappealing place to work. Plus the office itself was a dump.

As others have commented, there is a difference between a demanding boss and an abusive boss. There is no excuse for accepting abuse from an employer. If possible, it's best to leave that job. Sometimes, that is not always an option especially given the current scarcity of jobs. Being assertive and standing up for yourself if unfairly attacked may improve the situation. Only you can make that decision.

As a footnote, although the job was the most unpleasant I had had, I did learn something important. It's been said that people that who annoy us do so because they remind us of something unpleasant in ourselves. I think this was true to an extent in my case and it made me very conscious of the way I behave and treat others. I was also challenged to perform the best I ever had. Everything else about that experience is becoming but a distant memory...

I sure appreciate everyone sharing their experiences and feedback. Clearly this topic strikes a chord with many fellow 'necters.

After giving it some time and lots of thought, the right choice for me became clear. I resigned several months ago, on "good terms," and am still on the job hunt. Here's my top 5 reasons for leaving:

1st - I wanted to.

2nd - the owner was consistently abusive to staff out in the open office. Nobody was "safe" from the abuse. This created a hostile, deceptive work environment and it was clear this was not going to change. The recession had nothing to do with the owner's practices, as business was thriving.

3rd - Employees were forced to conduct unethical business practices. The owner's defense was that it was "business, and not personal." I fundamentally disagree with that mode of professionalism, or lack thereof....both professionally and karmically.

4th - the design work was definitely NOT worth it.

5th- there was no mentorship structure, whatsoever. The owner did not know how to "teach."


No regrets. Lesson learned.

about working for an abuser, and the quality of work.
Of course it matters, these offices have some the best resources in terms of technology, materials, etc.
Not to mention the people! Most are extremely intelligent, educated and some of the most intellectually curious people you would hope to work with.

As far as the abuse goes, if it's just that, as painful as it can be, it's much easier to laugh it off when your responsibility is somewhat limited and you're also learning a lot.
But when you're a project manager or a PA who has liability and have to cover up internal dysfunctionality for clients and consultants, in addition to being called names, than it takes a toll and the question whether it's worth it becomes all the more relevant.

Your comments remind me of this thread.

Should the there be a way of exposing people like this?

We need a union. There is too much insidious abuse in this profession and no governing agency that protects employees from:

1. Excessive overtime
2. Recessions (Dues)
3. Pigeonholing
4. Equal opportunities

Some states have better labor laws than others. You may consider documenting everything for legal reasons. Sometimes it is just a matter of putting little people like your boss in perspective.

why architecture??..

I haven't set foot in an architecture office in over a year and I still could use therapy for the PTSD.

Architecture is like the Marines and or SEALS - your boss can at times be like a smokey the bear hat wearing DI Gunnery. When you are in the thick of combat pushing for the Friday night posting and all hell is breaking lose, you better perk up up ears soldier, you will be the deadest come monday when they hand you the folder. My boss at a certain big office in SF endured years of real horrors in front of contractors - I listened and survived, even though the project was torpedoed.

farwest1,

What a load of shit my friend. An asshole is an asshole no matter how you slice it. No amount of talent or skill justifies that kind of behavior. These fuckers can usually dish it out but can't take it back.

"Respect a man, and he will do all the more." - John Wooden

sanguebom

"These fuckers can usually dish it out but can't take it back." true

Like on my first architecture job out of school - my boss there was in that category - like the time we went to lunch for my 90 day review, and he got impatient with other people in the parking lot, and damn near caused a huge wreck because he was flipping off some one for driving too slow. He told me during the review I was too old(40) to be changing careers from video games to architecture. He was a gnarly guy - kind of like Clint Eastwood in some of his later movies.

Just what is it about architecture that turns some people into assholes anyway? Frank Lloyd Wright was one of the worst if not the worst like the time he bounced Ogilvana off the bedroom wall. He treated the fellows like flunkies

I think it is this impulse to react to people w/o thinking of Karmic consequences.

selfishness - many architects are very selfish it's me me me me

A wise architect once told me that some lessons that you learn are harder than others. Sounds like this was one of them for you.
I've worked for an egotistical @sshole before - it was the worst one and a half years of my life. And I think a lot of us on this forum have been there at least once in their career - hopefully not more than that. What I took away from my experience is not to take people at their word in the boardroom when your being interviewed - it's all fluff anyways. Instead get an extended tour of the office, and be extremely perceptive - like Jack Nicholson in the movie Wolf, sans the fangs. You should come away with a good idea of how the office functions - is it fairly social or can you literally see shackles around a few ankles. I also learned the importance of having a broad, strong network of pals in the industry that are informed on the behavior and reputation of firms. Good luck!