OK, so apparently networking like crazy has paid off a little - even though it's a little scary when you don't know who has your resume and you don't know who they are passing it on to.
in the past 2 days i have received 3 phone calls and scheduled some informational interviews. can anyone give me some advice as to how to handle these? do i treat it like a regular interview, stating my case, keeping in touch and waiting for them to call me back once things pick up, or should i treat the interview as a networking session? obviously i am thankful to get these and i would be pleased to work at any of these firms so i don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth, but at the same time i'd like to use these opportunities to my advantage.
So it's to meet you, not necessarily interview you for a position.
I'm not sure I know what to say, except make sure you come across as not crazy!
In any case, calling a contact at firm you know and like every now and again just to keep in touch is always a good idea. That's the definition of building a network, so yes, bring in your portfolio and whatnot but also learn all you can from them, including who else they know who might be hiring.
right, i imagine it is to meet me, check me out in case they find themselves in a hiring position in the future. i guess im wondering if the conversation should stay within the boundaries of me and the firm in question, or is it kosher to start asking them if they know of any opportunities that may exist. maybe there isn't a fine line in a situation like this, perhaps that's just my own sensitivity.
I think your instinct is right: start with talking about their firm and your skills specifically, then move on to generalities of the field and other firms.
And I joke about not being crazy but really, a big part of a lot of firms is finding someone who is a good fit with the office culture. So don't put on a fake personality to try to be something you aren't, it might backfire. With the pressure of an immediate hire not even on the table, relax and enjoy talking shop with them.
Fair enough. It's just frustrating for me to see accomplished people like you have have to basically beg heap and grovel to just talk to people in the profession.
In all likelihood they have nothing to do themselves and the best way to make their time look productive is talking about themselves and the state of the profession while getting paid.
Even though they are not hiring this will at least give you some face time. Also in those settings the atmosphere is "a little" more relaxed than a regular interview. This could give a little more insight to how they practice/work. Some architects in different offices do "talk" to each other, maybe this will point you another potential contact.
The frustrating part, you wanted to be hired yesterday.
sounds worth talking if you have nothing else in pipeline.
when i was looking for job in london a few years ago and times were good i had a few of these as well, but declined the chance to speak because i had real interviews to go to, one of which led to job i eventually accepted.
i actually regret not going to one of them because the fellow in question happens to be very interesting. but i was in hurry to get job so wasted chance...
I'm surprised that so many people have never heard of informational interviews, or think that it is a waste of time.
I first learned about them several years ago when searching for a new position. It is a great technique; you aren't just groveling and begging for a chance to be considered for a job. It is a chance to learn more about a firm in which you may be interested, and for them to learn about you. It can be useful for anyone, given that most people haven't worked at many different types of firms, and it is really hard to get a sense of what a firm culture is like without visiting the office and/or knowing someone that works there.
Informational interviews allow you to get a foot in the door, but are also an excellent way to build your professional network. You may never get offered a job at the firm, but architecture is a small community; most people that have worked in an area for a while have worked at other firms and know other employees or even principals in competing firms. Plus, it is just much easier to get a crack in the door by saying, "I am interested in learning more about your firm and the kind of work that you do," or "I'm looking for advice as I plan my career path," than it is by simply firing off resumes blindly or flat-out asking for a job. In this economy, that can be especially true, given how few firms are even considering hiring anyone.
When I first moved to D.C., I only had two contacts that I actually knew. But, one of my friends in another city was able to put me in touch with the office president of the local office of his firm. She met with me for almost a full hour, was very friendly, and had lots of good advice on improving my resume and portfolio, and selling my previous experience and strengths. She actually listed off ten or twelve local firms that she thought would be a good fit, including contacts she knew within these firms. It makes it that much easier when you can call or email someone and say, "Ms. R at XYZ Associates suggested I contact you to learn more about your firm," than to just try cold calling the secretary.
These are opportunities make the most of them! They may not pay off quickly but in the small community of architects they can be important. You are probably getting this face-time because your resume/work was impressive or someone recommended you. That's a good sign. Architects are always on the lookout for talent and good workers, they just need the work to be able to hire them!
Advise--Research the companies before you visit. Listen. Be on time. Dress and groom yourself nicely (like your parents would recommend). Listen. Take along a portfolio of your best work. Be positive, enthusiastic, and open. Listen. DO NOT badmouth anything--your previous employers coworkers, other firms' work, old professors, your ex, other cities, politicians, sports teams, traffic, ANYTHING! Listen. Ask for their advise. Listen. Ask specific questions, if you think they are open to them like if they have recommendations about your resume or portfolio or approach. Don't overstay your welcome. Listen. Ask if you can contact them again in the future. And did I mention Listen! Ask how they would recommend that you could fruitfully spend your time right now or groups that you should be involved with...(other than MSNBC!)
By listen, I mean pay attention to the person you are talking with. His or her response should tell you whether they are comfortable and whether you should go forward or back off a subject.
Relax, be yourself, and GOOD LUCK! Let us know how they went.
(Oh, and in case the first interview isn't so hot--PERSERVERE!)
Research who the Hiring Manager is at a firm you considering and only talk on to the Hiring Manager not Human Resources. Human Resources are the ones that weed through the hundreds of resumes they get every day and will data mine, looking only for key words.
Create a sales letter to the hiring manage regarding a possible meeting and note that you will be calling them in a week to follow up.
If you can’t get directly to the Hiring Manager, give a call to the accounts payable department and say oops! I was trying to reach the Hiring Manager, would you transfer me to that extension. These folks get question on about bills and welcome a call other than “where’s the money?”
Don’t wear out your references, there like gold and save them until their asked for. Get recommendation from former associates and collages that you and know you, your skills and experience from working with you.
98% of jobs are from referrals and recommendation.
look ... firms are starting to anticipate a time when they'll need to start hiring again. so, some are trying to get a leg-up on the process by getting to know candidates now. it's a good use of everybody's time.
other firms are in a "trade up" mode, but trying to fly under the radar ... they're looking for good people with reasonable economic expectations ... you never know when a firm will get tired of paying outrageous wages for modest performance and dump someone because they find a candidate with better skills at a more affordable price. harsh ... but it happens and it's rationale behavior.
IMHO, if you don't have a job, you'd be crazy to ignore an "informational interview" if it is offered. what the heck else do you have to do with your time?
Call me crazy but any firm that wants to do informational interviews when they cannot make job offers is the equivalent of tire kicking at the car dealer. You're wasting people's time, but you can justify it because these people, afterall are hungry, they need work, they need a reason to get out of bed, to iron a shirt and put on a necktie and come into our office. They'll be happy to come in. They'll gladly wait for twenty minutes in the lobby waiting for you. The receptionist will get you some coffee. I'm sure they'll be impressed that you use Starbuck's coffee. All the while they will imagine themselves in your office. They will look over the professional shots of your restaurant interiors and renderings of life style centers. In an effort to psyche themselves up they utter under their breath, "Pretty fancy."
Finally as you make your way to the "conference room" Perhaps they will have the same interests as you. Perhaps they will be able to talk iphone apps with you. You're so hip and so easy to relate to. They pull out their portfolio and lovingly explain every project. These are their babies afterall. You then talk about all of your college experiences as well. "Oh excuse me i have a call." "The Mercedes dealer. The seat wasn't heating properly." You inform the bushy tailed informational applicant. They are more than happy to listen. You make a mental note "They could really care about my car issues."
So after you introduce the "informational interviewee" to a few other principles (is everyone a principle?) you give an extensive tour of the office and a thorough showing of all of extant and on the boards(bored) projects. Oh this is a mall in ______, this is a 8,000 square foot Guilded Age style beach house north of ______. Here is the headquarters of the Young Republicans in _________. Are you a LEED AP they ask because even though we waste tons of paper and plastic water bottles and all live in the suburbs even though our office is downtown, we really are committed to "green". You show them the office library which, in addition to the usual codebooks and Sweets catalogues, has three! count 'em three Robert Stern books, two Calatrava's and one Norman Foster. Or is it Richard Rogers? Anyway...
And you think to yourself " "Wow we must really be good because everyone of these "informational interviewees" really seems to be interested in what I am showing them. If we had some work we could hire all of these people." Unaware that the smile of your "informational interviewees" face and the interest they show in your work is equivalent to the nervous consideration offered to the person murmuring obsenities in the adjacent subway seat. At the first opportunity they will move away from you. Although they seem eager, given their druthers they would just as soon firebomb your office than work there; all the while acting as though they would want to create 3-d models of your derivative designs, draft up tenant white boxes or work on your brother in laws shingle style garage addition. This is crucial information for you though, as it is important for any potential to keep an excellent attitude while performing such mundane tasks.
Or maybe they are doing "informational interview" of you. Maybe you are the interviewee. The predator becomes the prey. Perhaps its an opportunity for the hungry job seeker to qualify and discount all the nostalgic meaningless crap that has been slapped up in the last decade by firms like yours. Maybe it is an opportunity to reassess the increased marginalization of a field that panders to the narcissism of speculative development disguised as community improvement. Maybe a hungry down on his luck tail between the legs job seeker will come to your "informational interview" with the question. "Why would I want to work for your soul sucking organization?" How will you respond???
Perhaps during this slow period, rather than wasting everyone's time with informational interviews, these firms should be developing some principles about architecture that go beyond the tired lip service of pleasing clients and providing "fill in the bland" cliches about their design goals. It won't happen though because these firms are tied into a unimaginative corporate group think. But go ahead and schedule those "informational interviews" because "what the heck else are you going to do with your time?"
i have been on interviews/meetings and in the end they say' sorry we are not hiring'...wtf.....
instead of wasting time 'talking to hungry people', the firms should be taking that time getting work in/marketing/etc.
if they want information, then send them a CV/bio/portfolio/etc...
and the whole ' we'll put your file on record' is b.s. too. in the last 5 years i have went on interviews/etc and they liked my work, not once did i get a call after the fact.
if the interview is already setup, then go.... but don't seem all gitty about it.
some of you people don't seem to have a clue about how it really works ... firms have no real interest in wasting anybody's time ... why would we ask you to come in if we didn't have a serious interest in learning more about you ... I've already got stacks of resumes to read and callers every day desparate to meet with me ... if I decide I want to meet with you, it's because I see something I find interesting ... meeting you in person will tell me something the resume can't.
the fact that I don't have a job for you right now doesn't mean I won't have a job for you next week or next month. if there's something in your resume that I find appealing, I'd just as soon start the conversation with you now so I'm part way down that road when I actually can serve up something meaningful.
But, I'm going to tell you the deal before I invite you to come in for the interview ... what's the point of keeping that secret. I'm not going to mislead you or serve up false promises.
I can assure you I have plenty to do with my time, even during a downturn ... I don't invite anybody in for an interview unless I have a serious interest in that candidate.
I'd much rather go home an hour earlier than my normal 8:00 pm departure time than meet with a candidate I have no possible interest in hiring some day. My time's at least as valuable as yours.
The people who don't have the clue are those who are willing to attend an "informational interview." Frankly, I don't care if someone wants to attend an informational interview or not. I am just calling out the hubristic apologists who can't see what's wrong with the attitudes behind the idea. It is similar to a perverse 21st century white collar Grapes of Wrath. We need some people to pick some apples or some peaches or some redlines. And it is bullshit. Go ahead and go to the interview. Where your best outfit. Smile a lot. And you gracious firm owners make some time in your superbusy schedules to meet these desperate job searchers. Although you can't what's wrong in your own "I am making so much of a sacrifice here to meet these people" How can you? You're giving them hope! God bless you.
you're right, what i should do is take philosophical stand! no to the informational interview!! i'll instead wait at home watching wheel of fortune hoping they call me to go on the show so maybe i can keep the roof over my head that way. thanks vado, you made me see the light.
hey you asked for advice. if you are going to go. go. just don't waste my valuable time asking for advice and criticizing the advice. take it or not i don't give a shit. become the informational interview expert here on archinect. Blog us with your experiences. Give us some pointers on how to an effective informational interviewee. The fact is you are desperate for a job and will do anything to try and get one. That's understandable. The fact that I think an informational interview is fucked up is my business. If you want to practice job interviewing for a job that may or may not ever develop that is fine. Go for it. Give it your all. Brush up on your Dale Carnegie. Get out there boy! Always Be Closing. Now I'm Done.
vado -- not sure where all the bitterness is coming from on this issue, but you need to get a grip.
you make this out to be nothing more than a deceitful charade that wastes everyone's time ... it's not that way at all ... it's just a firm trying to get it's HR house in order for the future by trying to connect with qualified individuals who are seeking work. nobody's taking unfair advantage of anybody ... it's just a natural process occurring under difficult circumstances.
I see an important part of my role as the principal of a firm to provide employment where I can. I want to provide that employment to the most worthy of candidates. the fact that I start that process before I can actually pull the trigger is not inherently evil, manipulative or abusive.
besides, I'd say that 60-80% of the people who are sending me unsolicited resumes right now make a strenuous effort to meet with me, even after I have told them we're not hiring and don't see ourselves hiring in the near future.
I'm probably not taking the time to meet with more than 1 in 100 of those candidates. but, those that I do meet are great people with great skills and represent a great fit with our firm. I'm truly hopeful I can offer them something here in the near future.
There's nothing bitter about it. If you ain't got a job don't set up interviews with people. You have nothing nothing nothing to offer them. You do it because you read it in some management book in Barnes and Noble. You do it to make yourself feel significant. Get your HR house in order. Have your little beauty pageant. My time is too valuable to keep responding to these rationalizations. IAs I said, I'm done.
Babs,
Don't let Vado get to you. His bitterness actually made me laugh out loud, so I suppose his posts are not totally a waste.
Unemployed, go on the informational interviews, of course!! I have also interviewed potential employees when we did not have an immediate opening. A few months later when we did want to hire, those are the resumes I went thru first. You never know when a firm will have an opening, and it is good for all parties to make those connections.
I have a current employee that I interviewed about 8 years ago, but we did not have an openinig. A few years ago, when our paths crossed gain, and we were hiring, he was looking. So the payoff might not be immediate, but what are you wasting except for some time you would probably waste anyway?
My advice: treat it just like a job interview, but of course do not ask questions like "What project would I first be assigned?" and "What would my role in the firm be?". You can learn a lot about how different firms are organized and run, and hopefully you will get good feedback on your portfolio and interview. If you do want feedback, ask for it. Sometimes people do not realize they are making big mistakes in an interview. Some of the things I have told interviewees (who have asked )
- A plunging neckline exposing lots of cleavage is not appropriate for a job interview, it is just a distraction away from you.
- Putting a school project in your portfolio complete with all of the redmarks from the prof pointing out all your errors is not a good idea.
- When I ask how your friends would describe you, "really laid back and a bit lazy" might be honest, but not the smartest answer.
ETC ETC.
Just one word of warning: sometimes a firm will bring you in for an informational interview just to get dirt on the firm that just laid you off. So if they start asking about projects at your old firm, who were their clients, how was it run, and seem overall more interested in your old firm than you, clam up an cut the interview short.
thanks archie - no need to worry about the plunging neck line, i don't think they want to look at my hairy chest anyway. and i wasn't laid off, i graduated into this, so no real dirt. but thanks for your input and tips, i appreciate it.
Listen to Babs and ignore the bitter vado retro. He might starve to death defending his philosophical position. The problem with his position is that it centers on architecture. The problem with that is that you can't practice architecture too long without those icky tasteless things like clients and money. It's a business--you are selling your art.
Any successful salesman will tell you that you have talk to many people and hear a lot of noes before you get to yes. Some of those people you are interviewing with might be the horrible people vado retro writes about--but knowing that puts you ahead in the game when things turn around. Some of those people might be the people that vado retro agrees with, but he's not going to find out...
You know what? I actually do see Vado's point. I don't completely agree with it, but it is a valid one: If you don't have jobs to offer, aren't you just wasting everyone's time and, potentially, using it as a chance to puff up your ego a bit?
Now, personally, I have gone to just a handful of informational interviews, and these were all a year or two ago. Sometimes they are just frustrating. But sometimes they can give you some real, usable advice, or even just another contact or two in the chain to keep you looking, help you build your network, help you get a leg up on the *next* part of your search. It can be frustrating and sometimes it feels like a lot more work than it is worth. But so long as you make the best out of it and don't make a major blunder, it's still a positive thing. You got out of the house. You're talking about architecture, not sitting at home watching re-runs of Deal or No Deal or something. You made a contact, possibly more than one, and hopefully you made a positive impact.
Architecture is a small community, and architects are notorious for jumping firms regularly. The contact you make today might be at another firm that can hire you tomorrow. One never knows. It can be tedious sometimes, but it can also pay off big.
you know, in a regular economy where jobs aren't that hard to find, i could see where an informational interview would be a waste of time and frustrating. but all bets are off now. it's not like im choosing to talk with someone who can't give me a job over someone who can. regardless of any of that, i am going to go, that was never in question - so thanks for those giving advice on how to approach the situation, i do appreciate it.
I agree with vado.
"informational" interviews serve one purpose. Its free PR and ego tripping for the firm. "getting the HR house in order" give me a break, sounds like corporate busy work for the overpaid and underskilled.
However, as many have pointed out, you can use this to your slight advantage. If you are just getting out of school and haven't interviewed much, then you probably need some practice. The more you talk about the projects in your portfolio, the clearer your presentation will be. You'll get a better idea of what is coming across and what is being lost. You'll see what projects people in the "real" world are responding too. Building up your supply of face time can only help you down the road. You have nothing to lose, don't take anything said to heart, don't let them string you along, and don't take it too hard if nothing materializes.
"Its free PR and ego tripping for the firm. "getting the HR house in order" give me a break, sounds like corporate busy work for the overpaid and underskilled"
What is wrong with you people? What sort of PR does anybody get from interviewing an out-of-work intern? Where's the 'ego trip' in that?
Just 6-8 months back people here were bitchin 'cause they couldn't get anybody in a firm to return their calls or pay them any attention. Now, because a few firms might try to get ahead of the curve, they get abused for supposed deceitful manipulation.
If this is the extent of your analytical powers and objectivity, you've got a rough career ahead. I've haven't seen such shallow thinking and foolishness in a really long time!
ahead of the curve? they are hoping to get ahead of the global economic bloodbath by holding informational interviews to interns?
My my we must really be out of ideas here.
PR and ego boosting yes...reread vado's post he lays out a pretty clear (albiet somewhat crass) scenerio. Architects are some of the most insecure people I've ever met. Most have lost hope of ever acheiving any sort of (D)esign satisfaction or recognition. Fresh interns with good portfolios showing interest in your firm is a form of redemption. And principals extending offers for informational interviews are feeding off this self esteem booster. When there are no clients to woo, the next best thing is anybody willing to listen. Basically that leaves the desperate.
: do you guys really believe this stuff you're posting? in what universe do you live?
I've been doing this for a while ... in the several decades I've been practicing I don't think I've ever come across an architect so lame as to interview an intern as a form of ego boost or redemption.
However, I have known firms to start interviewing before they're in a position to issue offers. Sometimes new projects start percolating -- when those projects present tight schedules firms will start interviewing so when the client says "go" the firm can ramp up quickly without having to make snap decisions. Where's the harm in that?
my whole thing is that if there's no job to be offered then why take the time. theres both sides to this.
say that said firm gets work in a year, what are the chances of them actually going through their old resumes to contact you?...
if a position is needed to be filled, then look for help.... but in the meantime, i think its a waste of time. sure you can shake hands and smile and all that.
theres other things firms should be doing rather than playing the ball and chain game. even if said firm did get work, i would think they would call the people that they layed off first anyways.
i can see both sides, but i'm leaning more towards the side of 'whats the point'. if they info from you, then send them a portfolio/resume.
it's like me trying to interview people to work in my model shop when i dont even have a shop now.
realistically, I don't think firms interview for projects that are a year off - I agree that would be pointless.
in my firm's case, we'll start interviewing if a prospective project's 4-5 weeks off - even if there's uncertainty about whether we'll get the work or whether it will start as planned.
clients can ask some pretty pointed questions about how you'll staff a new project - you have to have some idea about what you might do.
this is little more than a form of contingency planning. with the proper disclosures, I really don't see why anybody should feel abused. however, if you feel it's unfair, don't take the meeting
you know what, fellas ... all you have to do before you accept the interview is ask a simple question ... "do you expect to be adding staff at my level in the near future?" ... if the answer's "no" you don't have to go on the interview if you think it'd be a waste of your valuable time.
jeez ... I thought we were trained to be problem solvers !
The naysayers on this blog would be wasting their time talking to possible employers. In this day and time, there are plenty of talented, hard-working, ambitious architects and designers with positive attitudes. Even in busy times, it's easier to teach skills than to overcome negativity.
Feb 8, 09 12:19 am ·
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need some advice
OK, so apparently networking like crazy has paid off a little - even though it's a little scary when you don't know who has your resume and you don't know who they are passing it on to.
in the past 2 days i have received 3 phone calls and scheduled some informational interviews. can anyone give me some advice as to how to handle these? do i treat it like a regular interview, stating my case, keeping in touch and waiting for them to call me back once things pick up, or should i treat the interview as a networking session? obviously i am thankful to get these and i would be pleased to work at any of these firms so i don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth, but at the same time i'd like to use these opportunities to my advantage.
does anyone have any words of wisdom?
wtf is an informational interview?
To ask vado's question more, um, politely...
Are these interviews for freelance jobs, or for employment?
it means they like my resume, but can't offer me a position currently.
full-time employment LB.
So it's to meet you, not necessarily interview you for a position.
I'm not sure I know what to say, except make sure you come across as not crazy!
In any case, calling a contact at firm you know and like every now and again just to keep in touch is always a good idea. That's the definition of building a network, so yes, bring in your portfolio and whatnot but also learn all you can from them, including who else they know who might be hiring.
right, i imagine it is to meet me, check me out in case they find themselves in a hiring position in the future. i guess im wondering if the conversation should stay within the boundaries of me and the firm in question, or is it kosher to start asking them if they know of any opportunities that may exist. maybe there isn't a fine line in a situation like this, perhaps that's just my own sensitivity.
I think your instinct is right: start with talking about their firm and your skills specifically, then move on to generalities of the field and other firms.
And I joke about not being crazy but really, a big part of a lot of firms is finding someone who is a good fit with the office culture. So don't put on a fake personality to try to be something you aren't, it might backfire. With the pressure of an immediate hire not even on the table, relax and enjoy talking shop with them.
is there an evening gown competition?
I wouldn't even give the ones who "want to talk but can't offer you employment" the time of day.
maybe you could take them out for a steak and martini!
My previous job came out of an interview based on "want to talk but can't offer you employment"
really archmed? seems a better use of my time than watching msnbc all day
Fair enough. It's just frustrating for me to see accomplished people like you have have to basically beg heap and grovel to just talk to people in the profession.
In all likelihood they have nothing to do themselves and the best way to make their time look productive is talking about themselves and the state of the profession while getting paid.
Hopefully this helps, here is a link for some tips on doing an informational interview.
www.quintcareers.com/informational_interviewing
Even though they are not hiring this will at least give you some face time. Also in those settings the atmosphere is "a little" more relaxed than a regular interview. This could give a little more insight to how they practice/work. Some architects in different offices do "talk" to each other, maybe this will point you another potential contact.
The frustrating part, you wanted to be hired yesterday.
thanks modus
sounds worth talking if you have nothing else in pipeline.
when i was looking for job in london a few years ago and times were good i had a few of these as well, but declined the chance to speak because i had real interviews to go to, one of which led to job i eventually accepted.
i actually regret not going to one of them because the fellow in question happens to be very interesting. but i was in hurry to get job so wasted chance...
I'm surprised that so many people have never heard of informational interviews, or think that it is a waste of time.
I first learned about them several years ago when searching for a new position. It is a great technique; you aren't just groveling and begging for a chance to be considered for a job. It is a chance to learn more about a firm in which you may be interested, and for them to learn about you. It can be useful for anyone, given that most people haven't worked at many different types of firms, and it is really hard to get a sense of what a firm culture is like without visiting the office and/or knowing someone that works there.
Informational interviews allow you to get a foot in the door, but are also an excellent way to build your professional network. You may never get offered a job at the firm, but architecture is a small community; most people that have worked in an area for a while have worked at other firms and know other employees or even principals in competing firms. Plus, it is just much easier to get a crack in the door by saying, "I am interested in learning more about your firm and the kind of work that you do," or "I'm looking for advice as I plan my career path," than it is by simply firing off resumes blindly or flat-out asking for a job. In this economy, that can be especially true, given how few firms are even considering hiring anyone.
When I first moved to D.C., I only had two contacts that I actually knew. But, one of my friends in another city was able to put me in touch with the office president of the local office of his firm. She met with me for almost a full hour, was very friendly, and had lots of good advice on improving my resume and portfolio, and selling my previous experience and strengths. She actually listed off ten or twelve local firms that she thought would be a good fit, including contacts she knew within these firms. It makes it that much easier when you can call or email someone and say, "Ms. R at XYZ Associates suggested I contact you to learn more about your firm," than to just try cold calling the secretary.
These are opportunities make the most of them! They may not pay off quickly but in the small community of architects they can be important. You are probably getting this face-time because your resume/work was impressive or someone recommended you. That's a good sign. Architects are always on the lookout for talent and good workers, they just need the work to be able to hire them!
Advise--Research the companies before you visit. Listen. Be on time. Dress and groom yourself nicely (like your parents would recommend). Listen. Take along a portfolio of your best work. Be positive, enthusiastic, and open. Listen. DO NOT badmouth anything--your previous employers coworkers, other firms' work, old professors, your ex, other cities, politicians, sports teams, traffic, ANYTHING! Listen. Ask for their advise. Listen. Ask specific questions, if you think they are open to them like if they have recommendations about your resume or portfolio or approach. Don't overstay your welcome. Listen. Ask if you can contact them again in the future. And did I mention Listen! Ask how they would recommend that you could fruitfully spend your time right now or groups that you should be involved with...(other than MSNBC!)
By listen, I mean pay attention to the person you are talking with. His or her response should tell you whether they are comfortable and whether you should go forward or back off a subject.
Relax, be yourself, and GOOD LUCK! Let us know how they went.
(Oh, and in case the first interview isn't so hot--PERSERVERE!)
"I wouldn't even give the ones who "want to talk but can't offer you employment" the time of day."
That would eliminate every firm in this economy. If they want to talk to you, you owe it to yourself to go.
Research who the Hiring Manager is at a firm you considering and only talk on to the Hiring Manager not Human Resources. Human Resources are the ones that weed through the hundreds of resumes they get every day and will data mine, looking only for key words.
Create a sales letter to the hiring manage regarding a possible meeting and note that you will be calling them in a week to follow up.
If you can’t get directly to the Hiring Manager, give a call to the accounts payable department and say oops! I was trying to reach the Hiring Manager, would you transfer me to that extension. These folks get question on about bills and welcome a call other than “where’s the money?”
Don’t wear out your references, there like gold and save them until their asked for. Get recommendation from former associates and collages that you and know you, your skills and experience from working with you.
98% of jobs are from referrals and recommendation.
look ... firms are starting to anticipate a time when they'll need to start hiring again. so, some are trying to get a leg-up on the process by getting to know candidates now. it's a good use of everybody's time.
other firms are in a "trade up" mode, but trying to fly under the radar ... they're looking for good people with reasonable economic expectations ... you never know when a firm will get tired of paying outrageous wages for modest performance and dump someone because they find a candidate with better skills at a more affordable price. harsh ... but it happens and it's rationale behavior.
IMHO, if you don't have a job, you'd be crazy to ignore an "informational interview" if it is offered. what the heck else do you have to do with your time?
Call me crazy but any firm that wants to do informational interviews when they cannot make job offers is the equivalent of tire kicking at the car dealer. You're wasting people's time, but you can justify it because these people, afterall are hungry, they need work, they need a reason to get out of bed, to iron a shirt and put on a necktie and come into our office. They'll be happy to come in. They'll gladly wait for twenty minutes in the lobby waiting for you. The receptionist will get you some coffee. I'm sure they'll be impressed that you use Starbuck's coffee. All the while they will imagine themselves in your office. They will look over the professional shots of your restaurant interiors and renderings of life style centers. In an effort to psyche themselves up they utter under their breath, "Pretty fancy."
Finally as you make your way to the "conference room" Perhaps they will have the same interests as you. Perhaps they will be able to talk iphone apps with you. You're so hip and so easy to relate to. They pull out their portfolio and lovingly explain every project. These are their babies afterall. You then talk about all of your college experiences as well. "Oh excuse me i have a call." "The Mercedes dealer. The seat wasn't heating properly." You inform the bushy tailed informational applicant. They are more than happy to listen. You make a mental note "They could really care about my car issues."
So after you introduce the "informational interviewee" to a few other principles (is everyone a principle?) you give an extensive tour of the office and a thorough showing of all of extant and on the boards(bored) projects. Oh this is a mall in ______, this is a 8,000 square foot Guilded Age style beach house north of ______. Here is the headquarters of the Young Republicans in _________. Are you a LEED AP they ask because even though we waste tons of paper and plastic water bottles and all live in the suburbs even though our office is downtown, we really are committed to "green". You show them the office library which, in addition to the usual codebooks and Sweets catalogues, has three! count 'em three Robert Stern books, two Calatrava's and one Norman Foster. Or is it Richard Rogers? Anyway...
And you think to yourself " "Wow we must really be good because everyone of these "informational interviewees" really seems to be interested in what I am showing them. If we had some work we could hire all of these people." Unaware that the smile of your "informational interviewees" face and the interest they show in your work is equivalent to the nervous consideration offered to the person murmuring obsenities in the adjacent subway seat. At the first opportunity they will move away from you. Although they seem eager, given their druthers they would just as soon firebomb your office than work there; all the while acting as though they would want to create 3-d models of your derivative designs, draft up tenant white boxes or work on your brother in laws shingle style garage addition. This is crucial information for you though, as it is important for any potential to keep an excellent attitude while performing such mundane tasks.
Or maybe they are doing "informational interview" of you. Maybe you are the interviewee. The predator becomes the prey. Perhaps its an opportunity for the hungry job seeker to qualify and discount all the nostalgic meaningless crap that has been slapped up in the last decade by firms like yours. Maybe it is an opportunity to reassess the increased marginalization of a field that panders to the narcissism of speculative development disguised as community improvement. Maybe a hungry down on his luck tail between the legs job seeker will come to your "informational interview" with the question. "Why would I want to work for your soul sucking organization?" How will you respond???
Perhaps during this slow period, rather than wasting everyone's time with informational interviews, these firms should be developing some principles about architecture that go beyond the tired lip service of pleasing clients and providing "fill in the bland" cliches about their design goals. It won't happen though because these firms are tied into a unimaginative corporate group think. But go ahead and schedule those "informational interviews" because "what the heck else are you going to do with your time?"
vado sounds like you've been to this rodeo before...
i agree with vado....
i have been on interviews/meetings and in the end they say' sorry we are not hiring'...wtf.....
instead of wasting time 'talking to hungry people', the firms should be taking that time getting work in/marketing/etc.
if they want information, then send them a CV/bio/portfolio/etc...
and the whole ' we'll put your file on record' is b.s. too. in the last 5 years i have went on interviews/etc and they liked my work, not once did i get a call after the fact.
if the interview is already setup, then go.... but don't seem all gitty about it.
gitty?
as my favorite silver screen chracrter, fletch f. fletch once said "why don't you go down to the gym and pump each other."
i'd rather suck on a lemon than listen to that bitterness, sorry cryz you and vado are wrong here. there is nothing to lose here.
some of you people don't seem to have a clue about how it really works ... firms have no real interest in wasting anybody's time ... why would we ask you to come in if we didn't have a serious interest in learning more about you ... I've already got stacks of resumes to read and callers every day desparate to meet with me ... if I decide I want to meet with you, it's because I see something I find interesting ... meeting you in person will tell me something the resume can't.
the fact that I don't have a job for you right now doesn't mean I won't have a job for you next week or next month. if there's something in your resume that I find appealing, I'd just as soon start the conversation with you now so I'm part way down that road when I actually can serve up something meaningful.
But, I'm going to tell you the deal before I invite you to come in for the interview ... what's the point of keeping that secret. I'm not going to mislead you or serve up false promises.
I can assure you I have plenty to do with my time, even during a downturn ... I don't invite anybody in for an interview unless I have a serious interest in that candidate.
I'd much rather go home an hour earlier than my normal 8:00 pm departure time than meet with a candidate I have no possible interest in hiring some day. My time's at least as valuable as yours.
You just confirmed my post. Thank you for your valuable time.
The people who don't have the clue are those who are willing to attend an "informational interview." Frankly, I don't care if someone wants to attend an informational interview or not. I am just calling out the hubristic apologists who can't see what's wrong with the attitudes behind the idea. It is similar to a perverse 21st century white collar Grapes of Wrath. We need some people to pick some apples or some peaches or some redlines. And it is bullshit. Go ahead and go to the interview. Where your best outfit. Smile a lot. And you gracious firm owners make some time in your superbusy schedules to meet these desperate job searchers. Although you can't what's wrong in your own "I am making so much of a sacrifice here to meet these people" How can you? You're giving them hope! God bless you.
you're right, what i should do is take philosophical stand! no to the informational interview!! i'll instead wait at home watching wheel of fortune hoping they call me to go on the show so maybe i can keep the roof over my head that way. thanks vado, you made me see the light.
hey you asked for advice. if you are going to go. go. just don't waste my valuable time asking for advice and criticizing the advice. take it or not i don't give a shit. become the informational interview expert here on archinect. Blog us with your experiences. Give us some pointers on how to an effective informational interviewee. The fact is you are desperate for a job and will do anything to try and get one. That's understandable. The fact that I think an informational interview is fucked up is my business. If you want to practice job interviewing for a job that may or may not ever develop that is fine. Go for it. Give it your all. Brush up on your Dale Carnegie. Get out there boy! Always Be Closing. Now I'm Done.
vado -- not sure where all the bitterness is coming from on this issue, but you need to get a grip.
you make this out to be nothing more than a deceitful charade that wastes everyone's time ... it's not that way at all ... it's just a firm trying to get it's HR house in order for the future by trying to connect with qualified individuals who are seeking work. nobody's taking unfair advantage of anybody ... it's just a natural process occurring under difficult circumstances.
I see an important part of my role as the principal of a firm to provide employment where I can. I want to provide that employment to the most worthy of candidates. the fact that I start that process before I can actually pull the trigger is not inherently evil, manipulative or abusive.
besides, I'd say that 60-80% of the people who are sending me unsolicited resumes right now make a strenuous effort to meet with me, even after I have told them we're not hiring and don't see ourselves hiring in the near future.
I'm probably not taking the time to meet with more than 1 in 100 of those candidates. but, those that I do meet are great people with great skills and represent a great fit with our firm. I'm truly hopeful I can offer them something here in the near future.
There's nothing bitter about it. If you ain't got a job don't set up interviews with people. You have nothing nothing nothing to offer them. You do it because you read it in some management book in Barnes and Noble. You do it to make yourself feel significant. Get your HR house in order. Have your little beauty pageant. My time is too valuable to keep responding to these rationalizations. IAs I said, I'm done.
wasting your time? don't post. it wastes MY time having to sort through your bitterness.
by the way, thanks babs i appreciate your insight as someone on the other side
Babs,
Don't let Vado get to you. His bitterness actually made me laugh out loud, so I suppose his posts are not totally a waste.
Unemployed, go on the informational interviews, of course!! I have also interviewed potential employees when we did not have an immediate opening. A few months later when we did want to hire, those are the resumes I went thru first. You never know when a firm will have an opening, and it is good for all parties to make those connections.
I have a current employee that I interviewed about 8 years ago, but we did not have an openinig. A few years ago, when our paths crossed gain, and we were hiring, he was looking. So the payoff might not be immediate, but what are you wasting except for some time you would probably waste anyway?
My advice: treat it just like a job interview, but of course do not ask questions like "What project would I first be assigned?" and "What would my role in the firm be?". You can learn a lot about how different firms are organized and run, and hopefully you will get good feedback on your portfolio and interview. If you do want feedback, ask for it. Sometimes people do not realize they are making big mistakes in an interview. Some of the things I have told interviewees (who have asked )
- A plunging neckline exposing lots of cleavage is not appropriate for a job interview, it is just a distraction away from you.
- Putting a school project in your portfolio complete with all of the redmarks from the prof pointing out all your errors is not a good idea.
- When I ask how your friends would describe you, "really laid back and a bit lazy" might be honest, but not the smartest answer.
ETC ETC.
Just one word of warning: sometimes a firm will bring you in for an informational interview just to get dirt on the firm that just laid you off. So if they start asking about projects at your old firm, who were their clients, how was it run, and seem overall more interested in your old firm than you, clam up an cut the interview short.
thanks archie - no need to worry about the plunging neck line, i don't think they want to look at my hairy chest anyway. and i wasn't laid off, i graduated into this, so no real dirt. but thanks for your input and tips, i appreciate it.
Listen to Babs and ignore the bitter vado retro. He might starve to death defending his philosophical position. The problem with his position is that it centers on architecture. The problem with that is that you can't practice architecture too long without those icky tasteless things like clients and money. It's a business--you are selling your art.
Any successful salesman will tell you that you have talk to many people and hear a lot of noes before you get to yes. Some of those people you are interviewing with might be the horrible people vado retro writes about--but knowing that puts you ahead in the game when things turn around. Some of those people might be the people that vado retro agrees with, but he's not going to find out...
Best of luck.
You know what? I actually do see Vado's point. I don't completely agree with it, but it is a valid one: If you don't have jobs to offer, aren't you just wasting everyone's time and, potentially, using it as a chance to puff up your ego a bit?
Now, personally, I have gone to just a handful of informational interviews, and these were all a year or two ago. Sometimes they are just frustrating. But sometimes they can give you some real, usable advice, or even just another contact or two in the chain to keep you looking, help you build your network, help you get a leg up on the *next* part of your search. It can be frustrating and sometimes it feels like a lot more work than it is worth. But so long as you make the best out of it and don't make a major blunder, it's still a positive thing. You got out of the house. You're talking about architecture, not sitting at home watching re-runs of Deal or No Deal or something. You made a contact, possibly more than one, and hopefully you made a positive impact.
Architecture is a small community, and architects are notorious for jumping firms regularly. The contact you make today might be at another firm that can hire you tomorrow. One never knows. It can be tedious sometimes, but it can also pay off big.
you know, in a regular economy where jobs aren't that hard to find, i could see where an informational interview would be a waste of time and frustrating. but all bets are off now. it's not like im choosing to talk with someone who can't give me a job over someone who can. regardless of any of that, i am going to go, that was never in question - so thanks for those giving advice on how to approach the situation, i do appreciate it.
do what you have to do..... but make sure you keep it short and sweet...
I agree with vado.
"informational" interviews serve one purpose. Its free PR and ego tripping for the firm. "getting the HR house in order" give me a break, sounds like corporate busy work for the overpaid and underskilled.
However, as many have pointed out, you can use this to your slight advantage. If you are just getting out of school and haven't interviewed much, then you probably need some practice. The more you talk about the projects in your portfolio, the clearer your presentation will be. You'll get a better idea of what is coming across and what is being lost. You'll see what projects people in the "real" world are responding too. Building up your supply of face time can only help you down the road. You have nothing to lose, don't take anything said to heart, don't let them string you along, and don't take it too hard if nothing materializes.
What is wrong with you people? What sort of PR does anybody get from interviewing an out-of-work intern? Where's the 'ego trip' in that?
Just 6-8 months back people here were bitchin 'cause they couldn't get anybody in a firm to return their calls or pay them any attention. Now, because a few firms might try to get ahead of the curve, they get abused for supposed deceitful manipulation.
If this is the extent of your analytical powers and objectivity, you've got a rough career ahead. I've haven't seen such shallow thinking and foolishness in a really long time!
ahead of the curve? they are hoping to get ahead of the global economic bloodbath by holding informational interviews to interns?
My my we must really be out of ideas here.
PR and ego boosting yes...reread vado's post he lays out a pretty clear (albiet somewhat crass) scenerio. Architects are some of the most insecure people I've ever met. Most have lost hope of ever acheiving any sort of (D)esign satisfaction or recognition. Fresh interns with good portfolios showing interest in your firm is a form of redemption. And principals extending offers for informational interviews are feeding off this self esteem booster. When there are no clients to woo, the next best thing is anybody willing to listen. Basically that leaves the desperate.
then the word spreads
: do you guys really believe this stuff you're posting? in what universe do you live?
I've been doing this for a while ... in the several decades I've been practicing I don't think I've ever come across an architect so lame as to interview an intern as a form of ego boost or redemption.
However, I have known firms to start interviewing before they're in a position to issue offers. Sometimes new projects start percolating -- when those projects present tight schedules firms will start interviewing so when the client says "go" the firm can ramp up quickly without having to make snap decisions. Where's the harm in that?
Geeze guys - lighten up before you have a stroke!
my whole thing is that if there's no job to be offered then why take the time. theres both sides to this.
say that said firm gets work in a year, what are the chances of them actually going through their old resumes to contact you?...
if a position is needed to be filled, then look for help.... but in the meantime, i think its a waste of time. sure you can shake hands and smile and all that.
theres other things firms should be doing rather than playing the ball and chain game. even if said firm did get work, i would think they would call the people that they layed off first anyways.
i can see both sides, but i'm leaning more towards the side of 'whats the point'. if they info from you, then send them a portfolio/resume.
it's like me trying to interview people to work in my model shop when i dont even have a shop now.
realistically, I don't think firms interview for projects that are a year off - I agree that would be pointless.
in my firm's case, we'll start interviewing if a prospective project's 4-5 weeks off - even if there's uncertainty about whether we'll get the work or whether it will start as planned.
clients can ask some pretty pointed questions about how you'll staff a new project - you have to have some idea about what you might do.
this is little more than a form of contingency planning. with the proper disclosures, I really don't see why anybody should feel abused. however, if you feel it's unfair, don't take the meeting
exactly...."prospective project" being the key words here.
you know what, fellas ... all you have to do before you accept the interview is ask a simple question ... "do you expect to be adding staff at my level in the near future?" ... if the answer's "no" you don't have to go on the interview if you think it'd be a waste of your valuable time.
jeez ... I thought we were trained to be problem solvers !
The naysayers on this blog would be wasting their time talking to possible employers. In this day and time, there are plenty of talented, hard-working, ambitious architects and designers with positive attitudes. Even in busy times, it's easier to teach skills than to overcome negativity.
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