Rockstarbabu - Are there a lot of job openings in Sydney? Don't care how cheap the flights are, if you are unemployed you ain't flying to Sydney unless there is a paycheck on the other end.
Yeah, I knew what it was...and quite frankly would relish the opportunity to spend a couple weeks down under. Then again, even cheap flights to Oz are out of my price range right now.
I was laid off in 8/2008, the firm was a NYC top 50 firm...
The firm is doing better now, and with no prospects out there: Should I go and ask for my old job back? Should I keep my pride? It was amicable when I left, now I'm getting desperate...
Not sure what the protocol is, but if you were a good worker back then, this might be something to look into?
good luck to all the unemployed architects/engineers out there
charlotte - you definitely should touch base with your former firm. unless the firm had "issues" with your work (which does not sound likely) then they'd probably be glad to know that you'd like to return when a position is available.
from the firm's perspective, there's always a risk associated with hiring new staff. if they already know you, then they'll know what to expect.
however, be prepared for the "flip side" of this issue. firm's that were hiring in 2007 and 2008 didn't have many candidates to choose from -- as a result, many weren't as selective as they might have wanted to be.
today - as you well know - there are many people chasing those very few openings that do exist. this allows firms to be much more selective and they're not as willing to compromise on the skill set and cost aspects as they were just 12-18 months back.
if the firm had invested a lot of time (training, cont. ed., etc.) in an employee, i'm sure they'd want them back if the split was due the layoff crisis and not performance. someone who is familiar w/ firm standards/practices/etc. is more attractive.
i've been trying to keep touch with the few firms i worked for on an official and "unofficial" basis. "out of sight, out of mind" - if you're not keeping them updated, you're not in their mind or on their radar.
I have been laid off since 10/08 but had an earlier stretch from 05-08 to 08-08 the last firm was a bunch of jerks husband and wife team that only after week two informed me they were going through a divorce and I later learned that they had gone through 4 other employees that year. Not a very good firm to work for they did not have any regard for building codes especially the ADA. Lesion to learn from this is be skeptical of firms whose principals smoke and drink in the office and are not part of the ALA or AIA.
The firm with the lousy experience is in Valparaiso Indiana I left that town shortly after the local universities’ African American student union was set ablaze in what was a recent spike in racist activity. Before that I was working for a solid Architect / developer in the West Suburbs of Chicago, who did good work and was willing to go the extra mile to keep things running but the banks would not finance projects. We were set to break ground on the first universally accessible condo development in Villa Park Illinois that would be LEED certified but the bank kept upping the number of units we had to pre-sell to get financing. That and a few other projects disappearing left the small shop I was working for in a bind. But I was not blindsided by this and my boss was more than helpful in loaning me out to another sole practitioner in town just to keep me on the payroll. He was part of the Association of Licensed Architects ALA. ALA and AIA members are likely to be more professional and honest than someone who is just in the local rotary or chamber of commerce. In-fact another friend of mine was screwed by someone who was a chamber of commerce member, tried to skimp on pay and challenged unemployment benefits.
Watch out for firms that are not AIA or ALA or have no idea what IDP is you may end up with a firm like the one I wound up with in Valpo IN. Unfortunately many of us are going to be in situations like that since we have to take the best and often only offer, and the firms know this. I think we will see a lot of rampant firm hopping when the economy picks up worse than in 2006-2007.
My advice is to try to get a 3 month lease to start with if you have to move for work.
"Mr. Bernanke echoed the growing relief among European and Asian central bankers that their own economies had already started to rebound," even through he was previously "warning that the economic recovery here was likely to be slow and arduous and that unemployment would remain high for another year."
PJN...I've never heard of the ALA, but I agree be wary of any firm that is not a member of the AIA.
I have alot of gripes about the AIA and NCARB but in my view
Non-membership more often than not shows A. general contempt for the profession and generally accepted ethics or B. not wholly qualified to practice architecture and thus skirting legal boundaries
But I say all this as an unlicensed residential "designer"...so what do I know? :)
I prefaced it with "more often than not".
This was based on my experience and experiences related to me over the last 12 years. Sorry if I offended anyone.
Can you point me to the section in the California Architect's Practice Act or the California Business and Professions Code where it explicitly states that someone cannot refer to themselves as a "residential designer" in the state of California. I can only find reference to design limitations for residential projects in the CAP (153 & 154) and CA B&P (5537-5538 & 6737.1). However, I cannot find and verbage explicitly saying that the term "residential designer" can't be used. Did you see anything on the California Architect's Board website, if so where? These entities are the rulemakers for architectural practice in California...did I miss something? I would really like to know where you found your information as I am about to take the CSE and it might come up. Thanks for any info you can pass on.
I still fail to see how I'm showing 'contempt' for the profession by believing that firms practicing architecture and employing/mentoring architectural staff should be members of the AIA.
Perhaps in LA, an AIA membership is seen as irrelevant, passe, stodgy, whatever. But in many parts of the country it is a signifier of a broader community and perhaps an acceptance of responsibility to foster growth and ethical treatment.
I also don't feel what I expressed were "irresponsible generalizations". These were opinions based on my experiences corroberated by PJN's posts.
I can understand critisism wagered regarding fees, the natural distain for hegemony, etc. Although in these times, I beleive the needs outweigh the individual objections. The profession benefits from a strong unifying voice and lobbying power. Perhaps this thread would not be as long as it is had the AIA been a stronger force when stimulus dollars were being allocated to various coffers.
In these times, I can only assume that such an organization would benefit greatly from an influential voice. But to each his own I suppose.
the impression that many youngsters have of non-AIA architects is that their reason for not joining is because they do not believe in or want to adhere to ethical business practices, professional development/training, fair compensation, treating employees with dignity and respect, or held accountable for how they represent our profession ... you may have legitimate reasons for not joining a professional organization, but unfortunately this is the message it sends - like it or not.
I think it would be more productive if you explained your reasons for not joining a professional organization and demonstrated that it is possible for a non-AIA member to be ethical and a positive representative and advocate of our profession.
This is one of those "You have to laugh or else you'll weep" moments.
I read the following sentences on a thread about couples braving layoff problems on Jezebel:
My husband and I have been in this situation since January. He went from full-time to 20 hours to laid off. To top it off the owner of the firm he worked at took his IRA deductions and never paid them into his account.
I swear to you guys, by the end of those sentences I said to myself "Sounds like this guy was at an architecture firm"
I kid you not, one sentence later:
My spouse is an architect and the construction industry has been hit really hard where we live, so there is a lot of competition for jobs in his field. Several firms are no longer in existence, and others are joining forces to survive.
I mean for fuck's sake: what kind of douchebag takes someone's retirement investment and keeps it for him/herself?! It's sickening. I want to find out who this is and rat them out of their registration! (You can lose it for committing certain crimes, I imagine theft is one!)
wow dudes & dudettes, I was so happy to contribute to the layoff thread today, as it seems my firm might be letting a string of people go.
but this! i can't believe people could be so ignorant. Look the AIA is a good organization, it may aid you in becoming a better architect, but it certainly doesn't make you one. In reality, AIA does not affect every architect to the tune of $700 a year. Certainly, architects involved in AIA can do a lot of good, but there are those (in fact, the two people sitting next to me) pay the money to put letters behind their name. Just like all the people out there who took the LEED test with no intention of practicing LEED (my entire firm almost) or put NCARB behind their name. At the end of the day, all of that means very little. You need to sit across the table from a person and perform to the level that is expected of you.
Anyone who has a problem with any one of these you are not just a bad architect, you're a bad person. Besides, there is no assurance that just because someone pays AIA to be a member that they are an ethical professional. My firm is AIA, and well... ok I need my job for right now...
it sounds like the prejudice stems from personal experience...
you know what, f*** it, my aia firm does not support professional development aside from bringing in as many lunch n' learns as they can coax, my aia firm plays shell games with minority and women owned businesses for work, my aia firm's ceo has been suspected of greasin' wheels, and i'm not even going to get into the d/b bait and switch tactic... our last quarterly meeting, we were told to seek out change orders... it's aggravating and i don't want to be a part of it...
so, perhaps that is the other side of the coin
full disclosure: postal, aia
when did aia evaluate me? when did they hold me any more accountable then another registered architect?
but orhan this is untrue: "i suppose aia perpetuates to its foot soldiers." I have not heard anything like what cadcroupier or pjn describe.
The last firm that I worked for went from well over 300 employees down to about 100ish over the last year. I went to lunch with some former coworkers who have survived the chaos. There seems to be a feeling that things have leveled out. They haven't let anyone go in a while, although there have been a couple of long-term employees that have recently jumped ship for greener pastures.
The bulk of the jobs currently available are for healthcare, education and public works projects. Unfortunately, I do not have any experience with these project types. I have noticed that the trickle of jobs has increased ever so slightly. The job increases seem to be with small firms who do custom single family projects and larger firms who are into the affordable housing market. I am overqualifird for most of these jobs.
On another note, housing prices ($500,000 and lower) have appreciated by $50,000 in OC and over $20,000 in LA from January 2009 to July 2009. My younger sister is looking for a house in that market. She has been outbid numerous times and there have been bidding wars on alot of the homes. This has caused some buyers to move up to the over $500,000 price bracket where there are'nt as many bids as the homes as in the lower price bracket. Investors are buying properties with all cash offers and are attempting to flip again.
It will be interesting to see where the jobs and housing markets are at the end of the year. I am cautiously optimistic...
orhan - sorry for putting you on the spot like that, I just thought you needed to take a breath and explain yourself a little better.
personally, I've worked for two highly unscrupulous aia-member firms - just made me think that the AIA really sucks at enforcing it's own ethical standards... however we've got a larger problem if we expect a private organization to enforce federal labor laws...
the good news...
well for my firm this week we have one new project which will last our studio til the end of the year with a multi-million dollar fee. and i got wind (while working on a saturday) that a very good project which went on hold in january may be coming back.
the bad news... the boss is a ridiculous excuse for an architect- he needs psychotherapy and finds that yelling at his employees is going to retain them and make them work harder for him. little does he know, there are other firms out here which are doing well and are hiring... and a few of my coworkers have already gone on interviews.
quite frankly this whole experience over the past 9 months or so has made me despise my firm. i am here because i need a job- and because i need to make it through to maternity leave. but when i'm out on my leave i'll be looking for another position- hopefully teaching (which is the reason i got a post-pro degree- i knew it'd come in handy eventually).
Well I am sorry I struck a nerve with the AIA ALA thing but it is the experience I and a few of my friends have had. I don’t expect it to be the same everywhere else in the country.
The other thing about the AIA is that they screen their help wanted ads and turn down ads from firms that have known labor relations problems or other unscrupulous practices. Some of the regional chapters also have the resources to do this as well. This is a lot better than Craig’s List where it is like the wild west of online job hunting. I guess you need to be careful asking certain questions about the firm’s stability and ethical or moral fortitude. It is not easy; at least I have yet to see an article or a book on how to tactfully go about this. As I said in my previous post we will see a lot for people switching firms in the first few months of the recovery (architecture design and construction) it might be good business for the folks printing business cards and such but I expect a lot of us will be on the move for quite some time.
Hopefully people will take it upon themselves to do the right thing and report the criminal activities mentioned in earlier post to their state’s law enforcement agencies, waiting around for someone else to do this in unacceptable and is a failure in moral character. If there is no crime then it is just poor business and or personal relations and we have lots of post already on that.
A book I would recommend for all those gearing up for interviews
How You Can Have Confidence and Power In dealing With People, by Les Giblin
I have been practicing some of the techniques on my unsuspecting friends and it really works.
Think how your firm will feel about you when you take advantage of them paying you for maternity leave, then don't come back. Way to ruin it for the rest of the women out there! Of course, being so ethical, perhaps when you decide not to come back, you will pay them back all the money they gave you during your leave, the cost of covering your insurance, etc.
I can't even being to explain how angry that last comment made me. So essentially, archie, we should all just be so grateful to even have a job right now - no matter what the cost to our personal lives and priorities.
I'm not going to go on some rant about my own choices. To cite Barney Frank, arguing with you would be like arguing with a dining room table.
archie, that's a pretty harsh comment when you have no idea what +i's circumstances really are AND you factor in that she's probably under quite a bit of emotional duress right now, as all pregnant women are. Way to be a sister, girlfriend!
Yes, women go on maternity leave and never come back. And you know what else? Lots of times men come to work in a suit saying "Oh, I just felt like being dressed up today" then take a long lunch and a week later give notice because their secret interview went so well.
Being an employer is a risk. So is being an employee. In fact, being a HUMAN is a risk, because humans tend to have massive priority shifts when things happen like having children or losing a parent or going through a divorce or getting cancer. Those experiences can tend to turn down the volume of the corporate automaton in each of us. Sheesh.
On a more logical level, the really awful part of your comment, to me, is that an employer should have to pay maternity leave AT ALL, and that employers should have to pay anything directly related to healthcare AT ALL. I think all those costs should be on the government (and yes I know that means my taxes), and I'm not talking about the paltry 8 weeks of maternity leave that most employer-based healthcare plans offer, I'm talking about a much more realistic 6-9 months off like all those crazy "socialist" countries offer.
And to be fair: if a woman doesn't want her maternity leave, then her husband should be able to take it as paternal leave instead. Because for the umpteenth time, policies that are good for women tend to be the ones that are good for humans.
everybody's quick to pass judgement on others - just imagine what's going on in/with their lives.
ethics? we can't all be superwoman or superman. i'm far from perfect, if some of y'all are, then more power to you. as for the rest of us - you do what you have to do. try not to break the law, conduct your life with some redeemable code of honor.
being a father of two young children, i'm sympathetic to the moms out there. when my lovely wife was pregnant, i too ran into backward ass, good ol' boy mentality. we had one guy that "worked from home" and ruined it for the rest of the young dads. some people are just selfish - another "quality" of the business world....
anyway wish we'd help each other more than jump down each other's throats...
A shit load of people who were on maternity leave were laid off from the firms I know of. And yes some of them were very long time employees of those firms, very loyal and were even the cheerleaders of those firms including the one I left. She was one of the women trying to convince me to stay and then she got laid off while she was on maternity leave. She was one of the victims of became known to that firm as the "Thanksgiving Massacre" -- a mass layoff of over 100 architects, interior designers, and planners." There was also a woman who had just got back from maternity leave and was also fired.
Concerning Archie's lame comments, it's funny how the tides turn. Before, everyone was getting all over my shit for my pessimism about the way higher-ups handle layoffs and make pivotal business decisions.
Just as an FYI, I see no difference in the way I - as a guy - handled my situation. I left my firm when they wanted me to stay. they gave us bonuses, threw lavish Christmas parties, and gave me great responsibilities.
In the end of the day it just wasn't good enough -- unsatisfactory pay, an absolutely vile and downright poisonous work environment, ugly corporate politics, and not to mention I saw the writing on the wall for that firm's economic health. The new firm ponied up good money and it was simply a far better fit. Best decision I've made in my life.
You know what they say, +i, opinions are like assholes. Everyone has them.
Well med you're right about the nature of opinions! And you're right, and WERE right all along, of course, that there are tons of awful bosses and firm structures that handle things like layoffs horribly. There are also lots of good firms out there, that handle those things as well as they possibly can.
I think talking in absolutes and generalizations (with a subtext of personal attack thrown in) is what got us all into such heated arguments several pages back, and I know I'm as guilty of generalizing and spouting absolutes and attacks as is everyone else with an anus.
You all made good points, especially Liberty Bell. I probably am over reacting to hearing MANY women pretty much plan to take the maternity leave, come back for one day,then quit, just to have received 3 months pay. Perhaps they want to go to another job, or perhaps they just want to be a stay at home mom. Heck, my own sister did it. It makes me crazy, and here is why: Every owner of a firm who interviews some married 26 year old female will be thinking twice (or three times or four times) about hiring her, just for those reasons.
My point is that if you DON'T intend to return from a paid leave, (sick leave, maternity leave, family leave, military leave, whatever, then just quit. The intent of a leave is that you will come back. It just seems dishonest to me to take the money and then not keep your part of the bargain.
I realize everyone is equating this to firms that lay people off unfairly, but really, they are two different things completely. It is hard enough for a woman to be treated fairly in this profession without another reason for the dominant male decision makers to think twice about hiring a woman of child bearing age, or providing a paid leave plan.
Thanks, LB. I wholly agree with you.
Thanks med for the congrats.
And to everyone else who made great points.
Just for the record, I didn't say I was going to go on maternity leave and quit the day I come back. I am looking for alternatives. Whether I leave a year after maternity leave or decide to not come back while on leave- I'm not stiffing my firm + they will know at the appropriate time and in the appropriate way. On the other hand, that doesn't mean I'm not going to plan for the future. I will act proactively- it's my career not theirs.
It's hard enough to find a job as a professor, let alone find a job being pregnant- period.
seriously, what do you think is the unemployment rate among architectural designers and architects . . . we need a stimulus!
for every 1 legit immediate hire opening, there are over 150 applicants, that is a hideous ratio. this needs to be publicised in Washington . . . the AIA is a bunch of cognac sipping middle aged people (I feel them, but they are not advocates of anything or anyone in architecture in my opinion) . . .
this profession is as bad as the auto industry, how about a "cash for clunkers" type grant system for green ideas or what not
it's that bad, any thoughts out there, this profession is fading badly . . . look at residential investment or commercial investment . . .
what is the new graduate to finding work ratio, my guess it is the absolute lowest ratio of any profession, any thoughts
I think the stimulus had a rebate program for first time home buyers, some 8-10K not a lot but it might have tipped the scales for folks on the lower half of the middle class and or people who are not willing to have such a huge mortgage.
As for a design professionals’ stimulus we got the shaft with the whole “shovel ready” idea and basically funded infrastructure and building repairs that were all but designed and just waiting for the funds to appear. There was a push for school construction funding and class room technology for k-12 schools but the Republicans insisted it be removed from the senate version.
If I was afforded the president’s ear for a while I would advise him to make the next stimulus really mean something, like eliminating all derelict or insufficient classrooms, eliminating all class room trailers, and taking care of the deferred maintenance at the public universities. That would put us back to work and it should be a popular and easy to comprehend idea for a wide swath of the American public.
nada - problem with your suggestion is: who's going to pay for the actual project on the backside of all that design? our problem is one of funding for projects. most sectors simply way overbuilt during this decade and we're going to be dealing with the fallout for a long time. i'm more convinced than i've been that we will see a very protracted contraction in our profession, probably lasting the next 10 years.
on the actual layoff front: 15 let go from tvs atlanta yesterday. they're inching closer to 100 people in the home office. for all you keeping score, that's down from a high of 200...
One thing archie didn't comment on, but something that grates on me, even more in these "slow" times, is that employees with children (male or female) get a lot of slack in the workplace. It has been admitted to me by management that some staff has avoided layoffs simply because they have "a family to feed" while those of us working with said person know that he/she isn't productive. Meanwhile some single person was let go instead.
Long run that is not good for the health of any company. I also notice how those with children have much higher work absenteeism, often resulting in lower productivity, etc. That in turn shifts work burden onto those that are in the office to pick up the slack. Hardly fair IMO.
I'm not anti-family, and by no means do I think all people with families don't carry their fair share in the work place. That said, I think it's an absurd attitude that the so-called family man/woman should get any more flexibility in the workplace than the childless employee. Unfortunately I've never worked in a place where that held true ~ including architecture firms.
I AM A FAMILY MAN. I worked my ass off and here I sit responding to someone speaking in absolutes and generalizations.
UNBELIEVABLE!!!
My ex-firm laid off plenty of "family" type employees off. In our small office "pod" of six employees - five of us was laid off. The one remaining is a young married guy w/o kids. Of the five laid off, only one was a single male. The remaining four were married men with children.
The one young PA I had on my team (who is married w/o kids) never wanted to work overtime - flat out bitched like a brat, if I left early to p/u my kids from school. MIND YOU, I WAS BACK AT THE OFFICE BY 9PM WORKING 3 to 4 hours into the early morning hours to make sure things were taken care of.
Yes there are exceptions to the rule - my PM would take off to p/u his kid from school yet rarely did he return to the office. Hey, I'm a big boy - he's a PM, that's the way the shit works. If he has a cell phone (iPhones who needs stinkin iPhones) and his laptop, he could work from Lukenbach, Texas and I didn't give a care. My ex-PM was the good example, yes there were PMs that when they left the office, THEY LEFT THE OFFICE.
Yes, I am a family man - I WAS/STILL AM AN ARCHITECT. I gave my employer more of my focus, heart and soul than I did my own family at times. And yes, I'm bitter when someone who has never had to provide for their own flesh and blood, generalize that "family" guys (& gals) are not as productive.
Ask my wife and kids how it's like to have me in their life when I miss out on family activities because I've got to pick up the slack for some young punk PA who can't be bothered to work after 5:30PM.
I've been in this profession long enough to know that the self-sacrifice w/ self-promotion diatribe is a bunch of bullshit. Most of you are not going to be famous, noted or advanced to the level you think you deserve.
So you're bitter that some of us have found some life outside of this profession. This has become a profession of masochists, eager to heap misery and self-loathing on their inconfident, "intellectual", arrogant asses.
Layoffs....layoffs......
Rockstarbabu - Are there a lot of job openings in Sydney? Don't care how cheap the flights are, if you are unemployed you ain't flying to Sydney unless there is a paycheck on the other end.
cheap flights to anywhere...I'm not buying unless I'm gainfully employed or have an offer I can't refuse.
Aqua,
It's spam and rockstar is a spambot.
SPAM ALERT
okay it's spam but that doesn't mean that we can't mock it! ;-)
we are in some dire need of levity around here...
Yeah, I knew what it was...and quite frankly would relish the opportunity to spend a couple weeks down under. Then again, even cheap flights to Oz are out of my price range right now.
I was laid off in 8/2008, the firm was a NYC top 50 firm...
The firm is doing better now, and with no prospects out there: Should I go and ask for my old job back? Should I keep my pride? It was amicable when I left, now I'm getting desperate...
Not sure what the protocol is, but if you were a good worker back then, this might be something to look into?
good luck to all the unemployed architects/engineers out there
charlotte...It couldn't hurt to check in with them. Otherwise they might assume you've moved on to something else.
charlotte - you definitely should touch base with your former firm. unless the firm had "issues" with your work (which does not sound likely) then they'd probably be glad to know that you'd like to return when a position is available.
from the firm's perspective, there's always a risk associated with hiring new staff. if they already know you, then they'll know what to expect.
however, be prepared for the "flip side" of this issue. firm's that were hiring in 2007 and 2008 didn't have many candidates to choose from -- as a result, many weren't as selective as they might have wanted to be.
today - as you well know - there are many people chasing those very few openings that do exist. this allows firms to be much more selective and they're not as willing to compromise on the skill set and cost aspects as they were just 12-18 months back.
good luck -- I hope it works out for you.
good point file....
if the firm had invested a lot of time (training, cont. ed., etc.) in an employee, i'm sure they'd want them back if the split was due the layoff crisis and not performance. someone who is familiar w/ firm standards/practices/etc. is more attractive.
i've been trying to keep touch with the few firms i worked for on an official and "unofficial" basis. "out of sight, out of mind" - if you're not keeping them updated, you're not in their mind or on their radar.
I have been laid off since 10/08 but had an earlier stretch from 05-08 to 08-08 the last firm was a bunch of jerks husband and wife team that only after week two informed me they were going through a divorce and I later learned that they had gone through 4 other employees that year. Not a very good firm to work for they did not have any regard for building codes especially the ADA. Lesion to learn from this is be skeptical of firms whose principals smoke and drink in the office and are not part of the ALA or AIA.
Survivor jobs anyone?
Mine is Fed Ex and some landscape work.
PJN26, was this on LI, NY?
The firm with the lousy experience is in Valparaiso Indiana I left that town shortly after the local universities’ African American student union was set ablaze in what was a recent spike in racist activity. Before that I was working for a solid Architect / developer in the West Suburbs of Chicago, who did good work and was willing to go the extra mile to keep things running but the banks would not finance projects. We were set to break ground on the first universally accessible condo development in Villa Park Illinois that would be LEED certified but the bank kept upping the number of units we had to pre-sell to get financing. That and a few other projects disappearing left the small shop I was working for in a bind. But I was not blindsided by this and my boss was more than helpful in loaning me out to another sole practitioner in town just to keep me on the payroll. He was part of the Association of Licensed Architects ALA. ALA and AIA members are likely to be more professional and honest than someone who is just in the local rotary or chamber of commerce. In-fact another friend of mine was screwed by someone who was a chamber of commerce member, tried to skimp on pay and challenged unemployment benefits.
Watch out for firms that are not AIA or ALA or have no idea what IDP is you may end up with a firm like the one I wound up with in Valpo IN. Unfortunately many of us are going to be in situations like that since we have to take the best and often only offer, and the firms know this. I think we will see a lot of rampant firm hopping when the economy picks up worse than in 2006-2007.
My advice is to try to get a 3 month lease to start with if you have to move for work.
this morning.
"Mr. Bernanke echoed the growing relief among European and Asian central bankers that their own economies had already started to rebound," even through he was previously "warning that the economic recovery here was likely to be slow and arduous and that unemployment would remain high for another year."
Things might be looking better?
Suerte!
PJN...I've never heard of the ALA, but I agree be wary of any firm that is not a member of the AIA.
I have alot of gripes about the AIA and NCARB but in my view
Non-membership more often than not shows A. general contempt for the profession and generally accepted ethics or B. not wholly qualified to practice architecture and thus skirting legal boundaries
But I say all this as an unlicensed residential "designer"...so what do I know? :)
orhan, i got to agree with you, that cadcroupier statement is not only baseles, but shows a helluva lot of contempt for the profession.
my current employer isn't a member of the AIA.
I prefaced it with "more often than not".
This was based on my experience and experiences related to me over the last 12 years. Sorry if I offended anyone.
Please don't sue me now.
Orhan,
Can you point me to the section in the California Architect's Practice Act or the California Business and Professions Code where it explicitly states that someone cannot refer to themselves as a "residential designer" in the state of California. I can only find reference to design limitations for residential projects in the CAP (153 & 154) and CA B&P (5537-5538 & 6737.1). However, I cannot find and verbage explicitly saying that the term "residential designer" can't be used. Did you see anything on the California Architect's Board website, if so where? These entities are the rulemakers for architectural practice in California...did I miss something? I would really like to know where you found your information as I am about to take the CSE and it might come up. Thanks for any info you can pass on.
I still fail to see how I'm showing 'contempt' for the profession by believing that firms practicing architecture and employing/mentoring architectural staff should be members of the AIA.
Perhaps in LA, an AIA membership is seen as irrelevant, passe, stodgy, whatever. But in many parts of the country it is a signifier of a broader community and perhaps an acceptance of responsibility to foster growth and ethical treatment.
I also don't feel what I expressed were "irresponsible generalizations". These were opinions based on my experiences corroberated by PJN's posts.
I can understand critisism wagered regarding fees, the natural distain for hegemony, etc. Although in these times, I beleive the needs outweigh the individual objections. The profession benefits from a strong unifying voice and lobbying power. Perhaps this thread would not be as long as it is had the AIA been a stronger force when stimulus dollars were being allocated to various coffers.
In these times, I can only assume that such an organization would benefit greatly from an influential voice. But to each his own I suppose.
wow - this thread used to be more positive when people just came in to mourn about the recently laid-off...
@orhan:
the impression that many youngsters have of non-AIA architects is that their reason for not joining is because they do not believe in or want to adhere to ethical business practices, professional development/training, fair compensation, treating employees with dignity and respect, or held accountable for how they represent our profession ... you may have legitimate reasons for not joining a professional organization, but unfortunately this is the message it sends - like it or not.
I think it would be more productive if you explained your reasons for not joining a professional organization and demonstrated that it is possible for a non-AIA member to be ethical and a positive representative and advocate of our profession.
This is one of those "You have to laugh or else you'll weep" moments.
I read the following sentences on a thread about couples braving layoff problems on Jezebel:
My husband and I have been in this situation since January. He went from full-time to 20 hours to laid off. To top it off the owner of the firm he worked at took his IRA deductions and never paid them into his account.
I swear to you guys, by the end of those sentences I said to myself "Sounds like this guy was at an architecture firm"
I kid you not, one sentence later:
My spouse is an architect and the construction industry has been hit really hard where we live, so there is a lot of competition for jobs in his field. Several firms are no longer in existence, and others are joining forces to survive.
I mean for fuck's sake: what kind of douchebag takes someone's retirement investment and keeps it for him/herself?! It's sickening. I want to find out who this is and rat them out of their registration! (You can lose it for committing certain crimes, I imagine theft is one!)
So are firms still laying people off or have things picked up anywhere?
wow dudes & dudettes, I was so happy to contribute to the layoff thread today, as it seems my firm might be letting a string of people go.
but this! i can't believe people could be so ignorant. Look the AIA is a good organization, it may aid you in becoming a better architect, but it certainly doesn't make you one. In reality, AIA does not affect every architect to the tune of $700 a year. Certainly, architects involved in AIA can do a lot of good, but there are those (in fact, the two people sitting next to me) pay the money to put letters behind their name. Just like all the people out there who took the LEED test with no intention of practicing LEED (my entire firm almost) or put NCARB behind their name. At the end of the day, all of that means very little. You need to sit across the table from a person and perform to the level that is expected of you.
Anyone who has a problem with any one of these you are not just a bad architect, you're a bad person. Besides, there is no assurance that just because someone pays AIA to be a member that they are an ethical professional. My firm is AIA, and well... ok I need my job for right now...
it sounds like the prejudice stems from personal experience...
you know what, f*** it, my aia firm does not support professional development aside from bringing in as many lunch n' learns as they can coax, my aia firm plays shell games with minority and women owned businesses for work, my aia firm's ceo has been suspected of greasin' wheels, and i'm not even going to get into the d/b bait and switch tactic... our last quarterly meeting, we were told to seek out change orders... it's aggravating and i don't want to be a part of it...
so, perhaps that is the other side of the coin
full disclosure: postal, aia
when did aia evaluate me? when did they hold me any more accountable then another registered architect?
but orhan this is untrue: "i suppose aia perpetuates to its foot soldiers." I have not heard anything like what cadcroupier or pjn describe.
The last firm that I worked for went from well over 300 employees down to about 100ish over the last year. I went to lunch with some former coworkers who have survived the chaos. There seems to be a feeling that things have leveled out. They haven't let anyone go in a while, although there have been a couple of long-term employees that have recently jumped ship for greener pastures.
The bulk of the jobs currently available are for healthcare, education and public works projects. Unfortunately, I do not have any experience with these project types. I have noticed that the trickle of jobs has increased ever so slightly. The job increases seem to be with small firms who do custom single family projects and larger firms who are into the affordable housing market. I am overqualifird for most of these jobs.
On another note, housing prices ($500,000 and lower) have appreciated by $50,000 in OC and over $20,000 in LA from January 2009 to July 2009. My younger sister is looking for a house in that market. She has been outbid numerous times and there have been bidding wars on alot of the homes. This has caused some buyers to move up to the over $500,000 price bracket where there are'nt as many bids as the homes as in the lower price bracket. Investors are buying properties with all cash offers and are attempting to flip again.
It will be interesting to see where the jobs and housing markets are at the end of the year. I am cautiously optimistic...
thanks for your posts, orhan, postal...
orhan - sorry for putting you on the spot like that, I just thought you needed to take a breath and explain yourself a little better.
personally, I've worked for two highly unscrupulous aia-member firms - just made me think that the AIA really sucks at enforcing it's own ethical standards... however we've got a larger problem if we expect a private organization to enforce federal labor laws...
the good news...
well for my firm this week we have one new project which will last our studio til the end of the year with a multi-million dollar fee. and i got wind (while working on a saturday) that a very good project which went on hold in january may be coming back.
the bad news... the boss is a ridiculous excuse for an architect- he needs psychotherapy and finds that yelling at his employees is going to retain them and make them work harder for him. little does he know, there are other firms out here which are doing well and are hiring... and a few of my coworkers have already gone on interviews.
quite frankly this whole experience over the past 9 months or so has made me despise my firm. i am here because i need a job- and because i need to make it through to maternity leave. but when i'm out on my leave i'll be looking for another position- hopefully teaching (which is the reason i got a post-pro degree- i knew it'd come in handy eventually).
postal....
AMEN!!! Glad you got that off your chest - I feel the same way.
blackflag, aia
Well I am sorry I struck a nerve with the AIA ALA thing but it is the experience I and a few of my friends have had. I don’t expect it to be the same everywhere else in the country.
The other thing about the AIA is that they screen their help wanted ads and turn down ads from firms that have known labor relations problems or other unscrupulous practices. Some of the regional chapters also have the resources to do this as well. This is a lot better than Craig’s List where it is like the wild west of online job hunting. I guess you need to be careful asking certain questions about the firm’s stability and ethical or moral fortitude. It is not easy; at least I have yet to see an article or a book on how to tactfully go about this. As I said in my previous post we will see a lot for people switching firms in the first few months of the recovery (architecture design and construction) it might be good business for the folks printing business cards and such but I expect a lot of us will be on the move for quite some time.
Hopefully people will take it upon themselves to do the right thing and report the criminal activities mentioned in earlier post to their state’s law enforcement agencies, waiting around for someone else to do this in unacceptable and is a failure in moral character. If there is no crime then it is just poor business and or personal relations and we have lots of post already on that.
A book I would recommend for all those gearing up for interviews
How You Can Have Confidence and Power In dealing With People, by Les Giblin
I have been practicing some of the techniques on my unsuspecting friends and it really works.
+i;
Think how your firm will feel about you when you take advantage of them paying you for maternity leave, then don't come back. Way to ruin it for the rest of the women out there! Of course, being so ethical, perhaps when you decide not to come back, you will pay them back all the money they gave you during your leave, the cost of covering your insurance, etc.
I can't even being to explain how angry that last comment made me. So essentially, archie, we should all just be so grateful to even have a job right now - no matter what the cost to our personal lives and priorities.
I'm not going to go on some rant about my own choices. To cite Barney Frank, arguing with you would be like arguing with a dining room table.
Oh and I'm quite sure they really gave a rat's ass when they laid off a very loyal employee of 8+years while SHE was on maternity leave in February.
can someone get laid off when she's on maternity leave? I didn't know.
archie, that's a pretty harsh comment when you have no idea what +i's circumstances really are AND you factor in that she's probably under quite a bit of emotional duress right now, as all pregnant women are. Way to be a sister, girlfriend!
Yes, women go on maternity leave and never come back. And you know what else? Lots of times men come to work in a suit saying "Oh, I just felt like being dressed up today" then take a long lunch and a week later give notice because their secret interview went so well.
Being an employer is a risk. So is being an employee. In fact, being a HUMAN is a risk, because humans tend to have massive priority shifts when things happen like having children or losing a parent or going through a divorce or getting cancer. Those experiences can tend to turn down the volume of the corporate automaton in each of us. Sheesh.
On a more logical level, the really awful part of your comment, to me, is that an employer should have to pay maternity leave AT ALL, and that employers should have to pay anything directly related to healthcare AT ALL. I think all those costs should be on the government (and yes I know that means my taxes), and I'm not talking about the paltry 8 weeks of maternity leave that most employer-based healthcare plans offer, I'm talking about a much more realistic 6-9 months off like all those crazy "socialist" countries offer.
And to be fair: if a woman doesn't want her maternity leave, then her husband should be able to take it as paternal leave instead. Because for the umpteenth time, policies that are good for women tend to be the ones that are good for humans.
everybody's quick to pass judgement on others - just imagine what's going on in/with their lives.
ethics? we can't all be superwoman or superman. i'm far from perfect, if some of y'all are, then more power to you. as for the rest of us - you do what you have to do. try not to break the law, conduct your life with some redeemable code of honor.
being a father of two young children, i'm sympathetic to the moms out there. when my lovely wife was pregnant, i too ran into backward ass, good ol' boy mentality. we had one guy that "worked from home" and ruined it for the rest of the young dads. some people are just selfish - another "quality" of the business world....
anyway wish we'd help each other more than jump down each other's throats...
A shit load of people who were on maternity leave were laid off from the firms I know of. And yes some of them were very long time employees of those firms, very loyal and were even the cheerleaders of those firms including the one I left. She was one of the women trying to convince me to stay and then she got laid off while she was on maternity leave. She was one of the victims of became known to that firm as the "Thanksgiving Massacre" -- a mass layoff of over 100 architects, interior designers, and planners." There was also a woman who had just got back from maternity leave and was also fired.
Concerning Archie's lame comments, it's funny how the tides turn. Before, everyone was getting all over my shit for my pessimism about the way higher-ups handle layoffs and make pivotal business decisions.
Oh and +i, congrats! :)
Just as an FYI, I see no difference in the way I - as a guy - handled my situation. I left my firm when they wanted me to stay. they gave us bonuses, threw lavish Christmas parties, and gave me great responsibilities.
In the end of the day it just wasn't good enough -- unsatisfactory pay, an absolutely vile and downright poisonous work environment, ugly corporate politics, and not to mention I saw the writing on the wall for that firm's economic health. The new firm ponied up good money and it was simply a far better fit. Best decision I've made in my life.
You know what they say, +i, opinions are like assholes. Everyone has them.
Well med you're right about the nature of opinions! And you're right, and WERE right all along, of course, that there are tons of awful bosses and firm structures that handle things like layoffs horribly. There are also lots of good firms out there, that handle those things as well as they possibly can.
I think talking in absolutes and generalizations (with a subtext of personal attack thrown in) is what got us all into such heated arguments several pages back, and I know I'm as guilty of generalizing and spouting absolutes and attacks as is everyone else with an anus.
and speaking of uranus...
You all made good points, especially Liberty Bell. I probably am over reacting to hearing MANY women pretty much plan to take the maternity leave, come back for one day,then quit, just to have received 3 months pay. Perhaps they want to go to another job, or perhaps they just want to be a stay at home mom. Heck, my own sister did it. It makes me crazy, and here is why: Every owner of a firm who interviews some married 26 year old female will be thinking twice (or three times or four times) about hiring her, just for those reasons.
My point is that if you DON'T intend to return from a paid leave, (sick leave, maternity leave, family leave, military leave, whatever, then just quit. The intent of a leave is that you will come back. It just seems dishonest to me to take the money and then not keep your part of the bargain.
I realize everyone is equating this to firms that lay people off unfairly, but really, they are two different things completely. It is hard enough for a woman to be treated fairly in this profession without another reason for the dominant male decision makers to think twice about hiring a woman of child bearing age, or providing a paid leave plan.
Thanks, LB. I wholly agree with you.
Thanks med for the congrats.
And to everyone else who made great points.
Just for the record, I didn't say I was going to go on maternity leave and quit the day I come back. I am looking for alternatives. Whether I leave a year after maternity leave or decide to not come back while on leave- I'm not stiffing my firm + they will know at the appropriate time and in the appropriate way. On the other hand, that doesn't mean I'm not going to plan for the future. I will act proactively- it's my career not theirs.
It's hard enough to find a job as a professor, let alone find a job being pregnant- period.
seriously, what do you think is the unemployment rate among architectural designers and architects . . . we need a stimulus!
for every 1 legit immediate hire opening, there are over 150 applicants, that is a hideous ratio. this needs to be publicised in Washington . . . the AIA is a bunch of cognac sipping middle aged people (I feel them, but they are not advocates of anything or anyone in architecture in my opinion) . . .
this profession is as bad as the auto industry, how about a "cash for clunkers" type grant system for green ideas or what not
it's that bad, any thoughts out there, this profession is fading badly . . . look at residential investment or commercial investment . . .
what is the new graduate to finding work ratio, my guess it is the absolute lowest ratio of any profession, any thoughts
I think the stimulus had a rebate program for first time home buyers, some 8-10K not a lot but it might have tipped the scales for folks on the lower half of the middle class and or people who are not willing to have such a huge mortgage.
As for a design professionals’ stimulus we got the shaft with the whole “shovel ready” idea and basically funded infrastructure and building repairs that were all but designed and just waiting for the funds to appear. There was a push for school construction funding and class room technology for k-12 schools but the Republicans insisted it be removed from the senate version.
If I was afforded the president’s ear for a while I would advise him to make the next stimulus really mean something, like eliminating all derelict or insufficient classrooms, eliminating all class room trailers, and taking care of the deferred maintenance at the public universities. That would put us back to work and it should be a popular and easy to comprehend idea for a wide swath of the American public.
Just an idea if anyone cares.
<off topic>
+i, were you going to email me? No pressure to do so, but if you did already I did not get it.
nada - problem with your suggestion is: who's going to pay for the actual project on the backside of all that design? our problem is one of funding for projects. most sectors simply way overbuilt during this decade and we're going to be dealing with the fallout for a long time. i'm more convinced than i've been that we will see a very protracted contraction in our profession, probably lasting the next 10 years.
on the actual layoff front: 15 let go from tvs atlanta yesterday. they're inching closer to 100 people in the home office. for all you keeping score, that's down from a high of 200...
One thing archie didn't comment on, but something that grates on me, even more in these "slow" times, is that employees with children (male or female) get a lot of slack in the workplace. It has been admitted to me by management that some staff has avoided layoffs simply because they have "a family to feed" while those of us working with said person know that he/she isn't productive. Meanwhile some single person was let go instead.
Long run that is not good for the health of any company. I also notice how those with children have much higher work absenteeism, often resulting in lower productivity, etc. That in turn shifts work burden onto those that are in the office to pick up the slack. Hardly fair IMO.
I'm not anti-family, and by no means do I think all people with families don't carry their fair share in the work place. That said, I think it's an absurd attitude that the so-called family man/woman should get any more flexibility in the workplace than the childless employee. Unfortunately I've never worked in a place where that held true ~ including architecture firms.
aqua. ditto on pretty much everything you said. I've experienced the same thing at several places and it always pissed me off.
oh come on stay late and get some more hours in, you dont have a family to go home to or anything.... argh. but I do have a life.
just when i call for civility on this thread.....
I AM A FAMILY MAN. I worked my ass off and here I sit responding to someone speaking in absolutes and generalizations.
UNBELIEVABLE!!!
My ex-firm laid off plenty of "family" type employees off. In our small office "pod" of six employees - five of us was laid off. The one remaining is a young married guy w/o kids. Of the five laid off, only one was a single male. The remaining four were married men with children.
The one young PA I had on my team (who is married w/o kids) never wanted to work overtime - flat out bitched like a brat, if I left early to p/u my kids from school. MIND YOU, I WAS BACK AT THE OFFICE BY 9PM WORKING 3 to 4 hours into the early morning hours to make sure things were taken care of.
Yes there are exceptions to the rule - my PM would take off to p/u his kid from school yet rarely did he return to the office. Hey, I'm a big boy - he's a PM, that's the way the shit works. If he has a cell phone (iPhones who needs stinkin iPhones) and his laptop, he could work from Lukenbach, Texas and I didn't give a care. My ex-PM was the good example, yes there were PMs that when they left the office, THEY LEFT THE OFFICE.
Yes, I am a family man - I WAS/STILL AM AN ARCHITECT. I gave my employer more of my focus, heart and soul than I did my own family at times. And yes, I'm bitter when someone who has never had to provide for their own flesh and blood, generalize that "family" guys (& gals) are not as productive.
Ask my wife and kids how it's like to have me in their life when I miss out on family activities because I've got to pick up the slack for some young punk PA who can't be bothered to work after 5:30PM.
I've been in this profession long enough to know that the self-sacrifice w/ self-promotion diatribe is a bunch of bullshit. Most of you are not going to be famous, noted or advanced to the level you think you deserve.
So you're bitter that some of us have found some life outside of this profession. This has become a profession of masochists, eager to heap misery and self-loathing on their inconfident, "intellectual", arrogant asses.
Burning bridges since 1995......
In our last layoff 4 out of 5 were married with children.
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