If IL Governor Quinn pushes for a 1% income tax hike (coupled with a matching 1.6% corporate tax hike) I may jump the border to Wisconsin.
It is bad enough that our property taxes are sky high and they tax on a 3% corporate tax before it flows to you pay personally and then pay a second tax.
I don't know how Illinois will be able to compete with Arizona, Georgia, or Texas for large private work.
Martini - Companies moving to more "business friendly" states is nothing new. The whole expansion of the "sun belt" was no accident. I have a good friend that works at a major Fortune 500 company that maintains their HQ in the high tax state where they originated but all expansion over the past 20 years has been in Texas or low tax foreign countries like Ireland. He's told me that before he retires it is 100% certain he will be living in TX. And this is a high paying engineering job. This no longer is an issue of losing manufacturing jobs to open shop non-union states.
It should go without saying that architecture firms will move to where the work is. Stararchitects can survive off a reputation and global work, but the vast majority need some degree of local projects to survive. So for people like dsc, if the state of IL kills the business environment, yeah, might be a good time to move unless you are at that firm with a global rep. California is the poster boy for this as more taxpayers leave the state than come in each year. That's not sustainable, but don't bet on the politicians realizing that one.
I just heard this really nauseating story from a coworker.
One of his friends -- a female H1 Visa holder was laid off about a month ago from a large well known firm in New York along with a bunch of other people. As usual, they were all corralled into a conference room and were told of the situation. none were allowed to return to their workstations under any circumstances. They just had to leave. That part is normal (even thought I think it's still fucked up).
Anyway, so the girl who is around her mid 20s could not go back to her workstation to retrieve any of her belongings including her phone, her car/house keys, her purse, and even her jacket. Already devastated from the news of losing her job, she faced injury to insult when the HR person insisted that they would "mail" everything back to her within "3-business weeks." She was crying and no one would help her -- she begged the HR staff to just get her stuff for her but they refused. One HR lady even said that unless she traded in her severance pay, they wouldn't even help. My coworker even tried to take a bus trip up to new york to negotiate but they wouldn't have it.
She couldn't even get into her car, apartment or her mailbox for days. Apparently, she had to go out and make a brand new set of keys, buy a brand new cell phone, and basically have to wait for this firm's "promise" to send her stuff in the mail.
I almost vomited when I heard this story. And I'm sure this won't be the last one.
now, if that's not an exaggerated bullshit story (archmed this is not a statement on your credibility), she has a serious human rights case against her that is prosecutable.
An employer confiscating or withholding someone's personal belongings is illegal - it's theft. The proper course of action would have been for the woman to immediately contact the police and return to the office with police escort to retrieve her belongings. The officer would have filed a report and she would have had the option to press charges (though it probably wouldn't have been worth it).
The more I think about it though, the more implausible the story seems. If it was a bunch of people being laid off at once you'd think several of them would have been in the same boat and that at least one of them would have had the presence of mind either to storm past the HR person and back to their desk or just to call the cops and let them sort it all out.
He didn't mention the name the first time no matter how much I tried to pry it out -- trust me I wanted to know as much as you. Even so, I myself wouldn't want to give the name anyway since this is a story from someone elses mouth.
When I was let go in 2002, they weren't going to let me go back to my desk. I was an early adopter of cell phone is my only phone and I basically said that they could go get my phone and hand it to me or that I was going to get my phone. They would let me pick up my belongings under supervision after hours later in the week. They finally relented and let me back to get my phone. It was the end of the day anyway.
When I went back to get my stuff, no one met me in the lobby of the building, so after waiting I just went up there and started packing up. No one watched. It was so stupid.
If the story is BS that is one thing, but if it isn't I think that actually naming the firm is the right thing to do, if only to make others aware of that office's horrible attitude toward their colleagues.
I have been lurking on Archinect's discussion boards for a while and find that the coyness regarding firm names to be a bit ridiculous. As long as no one is making libelous statements or violating the confidentiality they are bound to by their employers/former employers I think that "naming firms" would make for more honest and direct discussions here.
titalwave, I hear you. I've heard similar stories before -- even recently. A friend from Electronic Arts in California was laid off and they wouldn't even let them back anywhere near the premises. they had security escort he and others out.
Since when is being a professional a crime?
Frankly, I'm shocked some of you wouldn't believe that there are rotten people out there who would subject innocent employees to this type of treatment. After all, this is the kind of disillusioned society that blames the actual victims of injustice for the ills and failures of a system. This is the kind of society where criminals such as Bernard Maddoff can ruin millions of people and get away with it. And this is the kind of society where the heads of companies such as AIG are consistently put onto a pedestal no matter how far they've driven their companies into the ground. And people are shocked when workers are given undignified layoffs?
I just had a look at TED's link to bdonline.co.uk link regarding the layoffs at Rogers' firm, and it struck me how they addressed their employees with much more directness and dignity than any US firm that I have been involved with.
Is there really such a difference in working cultures between these Anglo countries?
I think that Rogers is a really special place. Richard Rogers is a great man and a real mensch.
Don't get me started on AIG.
Do you realize what a fraud they (Hank Greenberg) were running?
The scope of the devastation is just becoming clear. AIG has cost every US taxpayer $1600 so far. They (we) are on the hook for $17 trillion in insurance and they insured world financial markets against a meltdown without any regulation. That's insane. They have no reserves left:
The scandal here is not the size of the losses from the global financial meltdown -- those are losses which sooner or later, in one form or another, would have had to be borne by the government anyway. Rather, the scandal is that AIG could have earned billions of dollars by selling insurance against a meltdown, even as it was wholly incapable of paying out on those policies. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Hank Greenberg was still a billionaire, even as the policies his company wrote have cost the average American household some $1,600. It's time for his wealth to be confiscated: it might be only a drop in the bucket compared to AIG's total losses, but it would feel very right.
i am just informed and verified about foster layoffs via direct contact to a colleague. it happened today (or could be their time monday).
archmed, i told you, i am not calling you anything and i wouldn't anyway.
looks like something like this could really happen.
maybe i have been so outside of corporate office culture (actually i never was employed in a real one), that i can't even imagine architectural professionals could be treated that way.
if it was me subjected to that, i guarantee i would end up in jail for verbal and physical assault on the premises.
maybe the people were dumb founded and shocked and felt helpless.
i agree with the above poster. why keep the names secret, in this context and behevior?
Did you know AIG was once a Shangai based shipping insurer started by Cornelius Vanderbilt and created via merger with the Starr companies, founded by none other than Ken Starr's grandpa? How 'bout them apples?
orhan, bullshit or not, its good to know that H1 visa holders in this country have NO rights at all. If she filed for a human rights violation, she would be laughed out of court.
Which sucks, because I know a lot of H1 visa holders who are actually making the companies a lot of money because they work much harder, and are generally better educated too.
sameold, maybe... there are still exceptional civil rights laws and attorneys in this country who would very successfully argue her case and most likely win. fucking with human dignity is not beyond any employers laws by any means.
the sad part is though, many times, people on weak standing with their immigration status, choose not to create any havoc or seek justice.
I think we all know someone working on a visa that has been laid off. It's extra tough for those people, and in most cases they are excellent workers. Two very good friends of mine are in that situation right now.
That said, I'm not sure about an H-1 visa, but the visa my spouse was on before we went through the USCIS hoops was very explicit that employment was subjet to the employer not being able to find a qualified US permanent resident to take the job. Had the economy been back then as it is today there would've been zero chance of that visa even being an option. Wright or wrong, in a major downturn like this foreign work isn't as accessible as in better times.
Has anyone seen these anti immigrant commercials from the group The Coalition for the Future American Worker on TV yet? They have a spot on primetime on MSNBC today http://www.americanworker.org/advertising2.html
Orhan, I'm with you: I suspect the egregiousness of this example (not allowing an employee to get her personal items, including her home keys!) is exaggerated, but if something like that did happen to me, I would be the one spending the night in jail because I would have physically fought my way back to my desk to get my purse. I have a temper that way, and I'm sure a visa holder, temper or not, would be more concerned about causing a fight, with good reason.
And I agree with Orhan and Extruder that there is nothing wrong with posting the name of a firm that lays you off. If you're not posting falsehoods, or violating a non-disclosure clause, then it's just information. And this goes both ways: if a firm handles a difficult situation well, say so. If they behave badly, say so.
We did some work on facilities for Boeing years ago that required several personnel to obtain security clearances. It was our understanding any Boeing employee could be asked to leave the premises immediately without regard for keys, coat, etc. I'm certain this has happened only very rarely. Boeing and the Federal government had real fears of documents being taken off-site. Often we were asked to show the contents of briefcases when leaving.
Unless they physically prevented me from returning to my desk, I would ignore them and obtain my personal belongings. I'd let them watch but, not touch.
I've not heard of an architectural firm not allowing staff to return to their desks and retrieve personal items. Worse was allowing one hour for cleaning out your desk. Almost forgot...being let go late Friday afternoon and having to clean out your stuff before they shut off the lights. You don't have a key any more. HOK has done this before.
Friend telephoned today. A large midwest architectural firm with an international practice specializing in healthcare and hospitality will let over 150 staff go between now and June.
If you are young and not so talented you might apply to the Federal government for work. It has been estimated between 100,000 and 250,000 new employees will be required to meet the demands of the stimulus package.
I have been unemployed for the past 2 months, I was laid off from my office the beginning of the year... I am managing by freelancing which is paying the bills, I have sent over 100 resumes, cover letters and what not, and only 32 of the office have replied back. I got tired of waiting for them to call me back, I am locating in Philadelphia, but I have been searching in New York and New Jersey... and nothing. I heard back from one of the firms they are going to let me know by the end of the month. So I just have to continue with my freelancing until I heard back.
in the non-archi world, i've heard of being let go earlier in the week and then able to return to pick things up after hours, supervised.
on the off- chance this happened, i'd have said f*ck you for stealing my property. then if they hold you, it's f*ck you, false imprisonment: hope you got a good lawyer.
arielvazquez2 - where are you finding contacts for freelance work?
Since I was laid off last week I have been working through all of my personal contact and starting on alumni contacts from my university looking for anywork. So far I have had 1 or two possible freelance things (mostly from people i previously worked with), but if its going to pay the mortgage I need to find a steady stream.
I have been answering craigslist ads for as-built plans, etc.
I was laid off after the New Year from my architectural millwork shop. I had taken a month and a half off (beginning of November) to apply to arch grad school (not knowing about the effects of the down economy), and when I called to return to work after the New Year, my bosses told me not to come back because there wasn't enough work. Not knowing what to do, I asked them if they would support me in claiming unemployment "for lack of work" and they okayed it. Then, through the Unemployment office, I found out that they stated that I "quit to go to school." They were trying to get out of paying!
As most of you know, grad school will not start until, at the earliest, Summer. So, I fought back, made a rebuttle statement to the State office, and after weeks of waiting, actually won. As long as I made it clear that I was not in school right now, the state said that I "was terminated after an approved leave of absence at which time I showed up for work, but was laid off." So, finally after 6 weeks of fighting and no income, i got 5 Unemployment checks last Thursday!
I am sorry to everyone on here who has gotten laid off. I have 6 friends (in design fields) who have been laid off as well - the latest was last Thursday, my buddy Tim, got laid off on his BIRTHDAY!!! It is truly scary to imagine myself working in this field, when I had no idea how volatile it could be with the economy. It's scary to be forking out a bunch of money to go to grad school and not know what the occupation will be like when I get out.
Best wishes to all of you on here, as it seems like it is just getting worse. It is crazy to read this thread from start to finish and see the gradual decline in morale and see people who posted that they still had a job, only to get laid off mere weeks later. Wow. Keep your heads up, I know I am using this time to just be Ultra-Creative and do some stuff I didn't have time to do before! Get out and volunteer with Habitat or AFH, they still so some great stuff. Good luck!
i have a question, whats the point of not allowing people back to get their stuff? if youre not workin for boeing or anything confidential, i mean, one already knows what hes been workin on, reproducing the documents is not impossible if one reeeeeeaaaaalllly want sto,, it just doesn make sense to me at allll
After being one of the people who had to clean out a fellow co-worker's desk after they were laid off last week... DO NOT leave your tax returns, mortgage applications, bank statements, investment certificates, etc at your desk at work. Why in the hell would you have this stuff at work anyways??!
Not only is it awkward and strange for anyone who has to clean it up- but why on earth would you ever keep any of that stuff in any company property whatsoever. It isn't "YOUR" property... that isn't your file cabinet, or your computer, or your desk.
As for corporate standards about naming names on websites, blogs, discussion threads, etc- if (and this does happen) human resources or IT discovers you have said anything regarding the firm, good or bad, without their prior approval- you can be terminated.
So perhaps that is why some people aren't uber excited to tell you what firm they are talking about. And if it is a corporate or starchitect firm, you will find out soon enough.
...As far as the H-1 visa holders... it sucks that many of those laid off were visa holders. An H1 visa is for a specialty occupation in which finding another person to fulfill that position is difficult and the person must have a bachelor's degree at the very least- including architecture and engineering. Should a recession occur, then those positions are often terminated because 1. It costs approximately an additional $4500 per person per year in attorney's fees and costs of maintaining the visa (usually much more than this- I have heard in excess of $10,000 when there is an issue with the originating country), 2. The existing country's population has already fulfilled these specialty positions especially true in time of a recession, 3. There is a time limit maximum on an H1 visa stay (excluding academia)
This does not mean a firm gets off scott-free when they lay off a visa-holder. They must pay for several expensive things- including transportation back to their country and any moving expenses incurred.
Frankly, I'm shocked some of you wouldn't believe that there are rotten people out there who would subject innocent employees to this type of treatment.... And people are shocked when workers are given undignified layoffs?
It's not that I don't believe the firm in your story would treat employees in such a rotten, undignified way as much as it is that I don't believe that no one out of this whole bunch of people getting laid off seems to have fought back in any way. I can understand the H-1 holder not wanting to rock the boat, but you'd think at least one person in the group wouldn't have been so willing to just take it as the firm dished it out.
I think what your story points out more than anything is the need for us to stand together and stand up for one another in these situations. If this happens to any of us we should all be armed with a knowledge of our rights and be willing to fight for those rights to make damn sure nobody is leaving without, at a minimum, keys, wallet and phone.
Given strong threat of eminent lay-offs, clear your workspace of almost all your personal items, and clump your remaining items so that you can bail out in fifteen minutes. If you think about it, you can arrange your workspace to look occupied (and confident), yet be very portable. Older architects will recall earlier periods of massive lay-offs. Expect to get laid-off, and act accordingly. Get your resume material together, mentally prepare yourself, and check your budget cash-flow and savings. This is no recession.
Please don't take a lay-off personally anymore; firms now need to lay-off even their well-regarded and hard-working employees. It's not about "settling scores", "culling deadwood" or "protecting favorites" anymore. Client base for most Chicago firms has been decimated. Market sectors here in Chicago will be dormant for at least a couple years.
If it happens to you, sign up for COBRA; now 60% paid by firm and 40% paid by former employee, or possibly try to negotiate a better deal. Hope that your employer has a severance package, but note that some large firms used to bump employees with nothing more than health insurance for the remainder of calendar month.
Firms do want laid-off people out of the office ASAP, because of the awkwardness, the likely anger of terminated employee, anxiety of remaining employees, and perceived security threat to files and work product. Frankly, many people want to "just go" after being laid-off, to emotionally compose themselves. SOM Chicago was "cursed" by an unstable employee at first round of lay-offs in 1988 who refused to leave the conference room for hours; given magnitude of SOM's hundreds of lay-offs that followed in 1988-89, it most have worked.
The economy is worsening, firms can't continue to "carry" their employees as the work dramatically disappears. Many small firms will close; larger firms will need to shrink and/or consolidate with other firms. If you still have a job, watch out for your friends who have been laid-off. If they have cash flow problems, invite them for dinner, give them a friendly welcome, etc; it's a new cold reality.
No seriously, just for the record, if I saw anything like that happen to a colleague, I'd go in and defend him/her in any way even if it costs me my job and/or freedom. I could never sit back and watch something like that happen.
In regards to all the horror stories about treatment of laid off staff, I think most of us (still working) know by now the protocol our respective employers take with layoffs. It should go without saying that if previously laid off staff were not allowed to return to their desks you shouldn't keep any personal effects at your desk in case the same should happen to you.
Update: still working as a construction manager and I just signed for an additional 2-month run.
People are reading this thread. Architectural Record contacted me about my posting here in this thread and it ended up as a mention in the current magazine.
There really isn't any easy way for someone to leave. Everyone knows what happened, the person is embarassed whether you go give them a pat on the back and your phone number or not.
But it seems like there is a happy medium here- when laying off an employee, do not escort them off the premises like a mallrat shoplifter - instead give them an hour or so to get their things, and get contacts from others as well as any relevant project info- and then arrange for them to get any large/leftover items after hours. Do not let people stay for hours on end (like 6 hours after you were let go) to clean things up- it's really awkward for everyone involved.
I have received several emails from former students as well as former interns looking for work. I would hate to be just graduating from school right now with impending student loan debt. At least if you have worked, and are laid off you will (in most cases) receive unemployment- and presumably you will get a letter of rec from your employer. But to be a recent grad is just rough. And so many professors out there are so out of touch with what is going on in firms- that they haven't even prepared their students for this.
Well it was even discussed here on archinect that when things got really ugly over at SOM around Thanksgiving people were laid off in masses and were told to just leave the premises immediately with a promise that all their belongings would be returned to them via mail.
The people I know who were there and either survived or were let go agreed that it was a very undignified layoff.
: great post. I think you have a very clear perspective on what's happening at the current moment and you give sound advice to those who fear they might be vulnerable.
times like these suck...no doubt about that. lives and careers are disrupted and nobody finds any satisfaction in what's taking place. firms lose access to skills and capabilities that they have invested heavily to develop.
but, firms must survive and (in most cases) firms are only doing what they have to do in order to survive. that's little consolation to those who lose their jobs, I know. but, for those who still have work I hope you can appreciate that sacrifices are being made for your benefit.
I remember after 9/11 when work dropped off suddenly. I knew a few firms in our area that waited way too long to start reducing costs. some of those firms didn't survive because they never could dig out of the hole they dug by delay. others, when they finally woke up to their true economic condition, had to cut much, much deeper that would have been the case if they had acted earlier.
it's clear that there's a lot of pain out there. I appreciate the post above that encouraged those here to reach out to those impacted by this economy. little, if any, of this is "deserved" ... there are many "victims" who need help. we (that means "you" and "me") need to rally as a community of design professionals to help each other to the extent that we can.
Layoffs....layoffs......
If IL Governor Quinn pushes for a 1% income tax hike (coupled with a matching 1.6% corporate tax hike) I may jump the border to Wisconsin.
It is bad enough that our property taxes are sky high and they tax on a 3% corporate tax before it flows to you pay personally and then pay a second tax.
I don't know how Illinois will be able to compete with Arizona, Georgia, or Texas for large private work.
... why AZ, GA, and TX?
Martini - Companies moving to more "business friendly" states is nothing new. The whole expansion of the "sun belt" was no accident. I have a good friend that works at a major Fortune 500 company that maintains their HQ in the high tax state where they originated but all expansion over the past 20 years has been in Texas or low tax foreign countries like Ireland. He's told me that before he retires it is 100% certain he will be living in TX. And this is a high paying engineering job. This no longer is an issue of losing manufacturing jobs to open shop non-union states.
It should go without saying that architecture firms will move to where the work is. Stararchitects can survive off a reputation and global work, but the vast majority need some degree of local projects to survive. So for people like dsc, if the state of IL kills the business environment, yeah, might be a good time to move unless you are at that firm with a global rep. California is the poster boy for this as more taxpayers leave the state than come in each year. That's not sustainable, but don't bet on the politicians realizing that one.
I just heard this really nauseating story from a coworker.
One of his friends -- a female H1 Visa holder was laid off about a month ago from a large well known firm in New York along with a bunch of other people. As usual, they were all corralled into a conference room and were told of the situation. none were allowed to return to their workstations under any circumstances. They just had to leave. That part is normal (even thought I think it's still fucked up).
Anyway, so the girl who is around her mid 20s could not go back to her workstation to retrieve any of her belongings including her phone, her car/house keys, her purse, and even her jacket. Already devastated from the news of losing her job, she faced injury to insult when the HR person insisted that they would "mail" everything back to her within "3-business weeks." She was crying and no one would help her -- she begged the HR staff to just get her stuff for her but they refused. One HR lady even said that unless she traded in her severance pay, they wouldn't even help. My coworker even tried to take a bus trip up to new york to negotiate but they wouldn't have it.
She couldn't even get into her car, apartment or her mailbox for days. Apparently, she had to go out and make a brand new set of keys, buy a brand new cell phone, and basically have to wait for this firm's "promise" to send her stuff in the mail.
I almost vomited when I heard this story. And I'm sure this won't be the last one.
now, if that's not an exaggerated bullshit story (archmed this is not a statement on your credibility), she has a serious human rights case against her that is prosecutable.
An employer confiscating or withholding someone's personal belongings is illegal - it's theft. The proper course of action would have been for the woman to immediately contact the police and return to the office with police escort to retrieve her belongings. The officer would have filed a report and she would have had the option to press charges (though it probably wouldn't have been worth it).
Archmed - that is unbelievable! I would post the firm! I know of not letting the person onto the computer, but not to retrieve personal belongings?
What ever happened to professionalism, civility, not burning bridges, etc. Clearly everyone should know who this firm is!
Archmed - that is unbelievable! I would post the firm! I know of not letting the person onto the computer, but not to retrieve personal belongings?
What ever happened to professionalism, civility, not burning bridges, etc. Clearly everyone should know who this firm is!
Archmed - that is unbelievable! I would post the firm! I know of not letting the person onto the computer, but not to retrieve personal belongings?
What ever happened to professionalism, civility, not burning bridges, etc. Clearly everyone should know who this firm is!
I didn't want to believe it but the person who told me this story wasn't bullshitting around. I mean seriously, people can't make this up.
The more I think about it though, the more implausible the story seems. If it was a bunch of people being laid off at once you'd think several of them would have been in the same boat and that at least one of them would have had the presence of mind either to storm past the HR person and back to their desk or just to call the cops and let them sort it all out.
4arch - correct!
Archmed - Names!!!
He didn't mention the name the first time no matter how much I tried to pry it out -- trust me I wanted to know as much as you. Even so, I myself wouldn't want to give the name anyway since this is a story from someone elses mouth.
that's an exaggerated bullshit story.
how stupid - they could just have the HR person escort each person back to their desk and watch them pick up their bits -
heard it was smith-gill last friday [-40] with folks now scrambling and in the paper today Rogers to axe 35 of 160 [thats 21%]
http://www.bdonline.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=426&storycode=3135088&c=1&encCode=0000000001918b4c
Orhan, what?
When I was let go in 2002, they weren't going to let me go back to my desk. I was an early adopter of cell phone is my only phone and I basically said that they could go get my phone and hand it to me or that I was going to get my phone. They would let me pick up my belongings under supervision after hours later in the week. They finally relented and let me back to get my phone. It was the end of the day anyway.
When I went back to get my stuff, no one met me in the lobby of the building, so after waiting I just went up there and started packing up. No one watched. It was so stupid.
If the story is BS that is one thing, but if it isn't I think that actually naming the firm is the right thing to do, if only to make others aware of that office's horrible attitude toward their colleagues.
I have been lurking on Archinect's discussion boards for a while and find that the coyness regarding firm names to be a bit ridiculous. As long as no one is making libelous statements or violating the confidentiality they are bound to by their employers/former employers I think that "naming firms" would make for more honest and direct discussions here.
titalwave, I hear you. I've heard similar stories before -- even recently. A friend from Electronic Arts in California was laid off and they wouldn't even let them back anywhere near the premises. they had security escort he and others out.
Since when is being a professional a crime?
Frankly, I'm shocked some of you wouldn't believe that there are rotten people out there who would subject innocent employees to this type of treatment. After all, this is the kind of disillusioned society that blames the actual victims of injustice for the ills and failures of a system. This is the kind of society where criminals such as Bernard Maddoff can ruin millions of people and get away with it. And this is the kind of society where the heads of companies such as AIG are consistently put onto a pedestal no matter how far they've driven their companies into the ground. And people are shocked when workers are given undignified layoffs?
I just had a look at TED's link to bdonline.co.uk link regarding the layoffs at Rogers' firm, and it struck me how they addressed their employees with much more directness and dignity than any US firm that I have been involved with.
Is there really such a difference in working cultures between these Anglo countries?
I think that Rogers is a really special place. Richard Rogers is a great man and a real mensch.
Don't get me started on AIG.
Do you realize what a fraud they (Hank Greenberg) were running?
The scope of the devastation is just becoming clear. AIG has cost every US taxpayer $1600 so far. They (we) are on the hook for $17 trillion in insurance and they insured world financial markets against a meltdown without any regulation. That's insane. They have no reserves left:
The scandal here is not the size of the losses from the global financial meltdown -- those are losses which sooner or later, in one form or another, would have had to be borne by the government anyway. Rather, the scandal is that AIG could have earned billions of dollars by selling insurance against a meltdown, even as it was wholly incapable of paying out on those policies. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Hank Greenberg was still a billionaire, even as the policies his company wrote have cost the average American household some $1,600. It's time for his wealth to be confiscated: it might be only a drop in the bucket compared to AIG's total losses, but it would feel very right.
http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/market-movers/2009/03/02/the-aig-scandal?tid=true
If this keeps snowballing, we'll all be unemployed.
i am just informed and verified about foster layoffs via direct contact to a colleague. it happened today (or could be their time monday).
archmed, i told you, i am not calling you anything and i wouldn't anyway.
looks like something like this could really happen.
maybe i have been so outside of corporate office culture (actually i never was employed in a real one), that i can't even imagine architectural professionals could be treated that way.
if it was me subjected to that, i guarantee i would end up in jail for verbal and physical assault on the premises.
maybe the people were dumb founded and shocked and felt helpless.
i agree with the above poster. why keep the names secret, in this context and behevior?
Did you know AIG was once a Shangai based shipping insurer started by Cornelius Vanderbilt and created via merger with the Starr companies, founded by none other than Ken Starr's grandpa? How 'bout them apples?
orhan, bullshit or not, its good to know that H1 visa holders in this country have NO rights at all. If she filed for a human rights violation, she would be laughed out of court.
Which sucks, because I know a lot of H1 visa holders who are actually making the companies a lot of money because they work much harder, and are generally better educated too.
sameold, maybe... there are still exceptional civil rights laws and attorneys in this country who would very successfully argue her case and most likely win. fucking with human dignity is not beyond any employers laws by any means.
the sad part is though, many times, people on weak standing with their immigration status, choose not to create any havoc or seek justice.
I think we all know someone working on a visa that has been laid off. It's extra tough for those people, and in most cases they are excellent workers. Two very good friends of mine are in that situation right now.
That said, I'm not sure about an H-1 visa, but the visa my spouse was on before we went through the USCIS hoops was very explicit that employment was subjet to the employer not being able to find a qualified US permanent resident to take the job. Had the economy been back then as it is today there would've been zero chance of that visa even being an option. Wright or wrong, in a major downturn like this foreign work isn't as accessible as in better times.
Has anyone seen these anti immigrant commercials from the group The Coalition for the Future American Worker on TV yet? They have a spot on primetime on MSNBC today
http://www.americanworker.org/advertising2.html
It is kind of scary
Orhan, I'm with you: I suspect the egregiousness of this example (not allowing an employee to get her personal items, including her home keys!) is exaggerated, but if something like that did happen to me, I would be the one spending the night in jail because I would have physically fought my way back to my desk to get my purse. I have a temper that way, and I'm sure a visa holder, temper or not, would be more concerned about causing a fight, with good reason.
And I agree with Orhan and Extruder that there is nothing wrong with posting the name of a firm that lays you off. If you're not posting falsehoods, or violating a non-disclosure clause, then it's just information. And this goes both ways: if a firm handles a difficult situation well, say so. If they behave badly, say so.
We did some work on facilities for Boeing years ago that required several personnel to obtain security clearances. It was our understanding any Boeing employee could be asked to leave the premises immediately without regard for keys, coat, etc. I'm certain this has happened only very rarely. Boeing and the Federal government had real fears of documents being taken off-site. Often we were asked to show the contents of briefcases when leaving.
Unless they physically prevented me from returning to my desk, I would ignore them and obtain my personal belongings. I'd let them watch but, not touch.
I've not heard of an architectural firm not allowing staff to return to their desks and retrieve personal items. Worse was allowing one hour for cleaning out your desk. Almost forgot...being let go late Friday afternoon and having to clean out your stuff before they shut off the lights. You don't have a key any more. HOK has done this before.
Friend telephoned today. A large midwest architectural firm with an international practice specializing in healthcare and hospitality will let over 150 staff go between now and June.
If you are young and not so talented you might apply to the Federal government for work. It has been estimated between 100,000 and 250,000 new employees will be required to meet the demands of the stimulus package.
I have been unemployed for the past 2 months, I was laid off from my office the beginning of the year... I am managing by freelancing which is paying the bills, I have sent over 100 resumes, cover letters and what not, and only 32 of the office have replied back. I got tired of waiting for them to call me back, I am locating in Philadelphia, but I have been searching in New York and New Jersey... and nothing. I heard back from one of the firms they are going to let me know by the end of the month. So I just have to continue with my freelancing until I heard back.
martini - leo daly?
in the non-archi world, i've heard of being let go earlier in the week and then able to return to pick things up after hours, supervised.
on the off- chance this happened, i'd have said f*ck you for stealing my property. then if they hold you, it's f*ck you, false imprisonment: hope you got a good lawyer.
arielvazquez2 - where are you finding contacts for freelance work?
Since I was laid off last week I have been working through all of my personal contact and starting on alumni contacts from my university looking for anywork. So far I have had 1 or two possible freelance things (mostly from people i previously worked with), but if its going to pay the mortgage I need to find a steady stream.
I have been answering craigslist ads for as-built plans, etc.
Do you know of any better resources?
reminding everyone to keep archiving their work. Use that flash drive or the gmail account regularly! Really, trust no one.
Thought I'd share my story on this thread....
I was laid off after the New Year from my architectural millwork shop. I had taken a month and a half off (beginning of November) to apply to arch grad school (not knowing about the effects of the down economy), and when I called to return to work after the New Year, my bosses told me not to come back because there wasn't enough work. Not knowing what to do, I asked them if they would support me in claiming unemployment "for lack of work" and they okayed it. Then, through the Unemployment office, I found out that they stated that I "quit to go to school." They were trying to get out of paying!
As most of you know, grad school will not start until, at the earliest, Summer. So, I fought back, made a rebuttle statement to the State office, and after weeks of waiting, actually won. As long as I made it clear that I was not in school right now, the state said that I "was terminated after an approved leave of absence at which time I showed up for work, but was laid off." So, finally after 6 weeks of fighting and no income, i got 5 Unemployment checks last Thursday!
I am sorry to everyone on here who has gotten laid off. I have 6 friends (in design fields) who have been laid off as well - the latest was last Thursday, my buddy Tim, got laid off on his BIRTHDAY!!! It is truly scary to imagine myself working in this field, when I had no idea how volatile it could be with the economy. It's scary to be forking out a bunch of money to go to grad school and not know what the occupation will be like when I get out.
Best wishes to all of you on here, as it seems like it is just getting worse. It is crazy to read this thread from start to finish and see the gradual decline in morale and see people who posted that they still had a job, only to get laid off mere weeks later. Wow. Keep your heads up, I know I am using this time to just be Ultra-Creative and do some stuff I didn't have time to do before! Get out and volunteer with Habitat or AFH, they still so some great stuff. Good luck!
joe
i have a question, whats the point of not allowing people back to get their stuff? if youre not workin for boeing or anything confidential, i mean, one already knows what hes been workin on, reproducing the documents is not impossible if one reeeeeeaaaaalllly want sto,, it just doesn make sense to me at allll
After being one of the people who had to clean out a fellow co-worker's desk after they were laid off last week... DO NOT leave your tax returns, mortgage applications, bank statements, investment certificates, etc at your desk at work. Why in the hell would you have this stuff at work anyways??!
Not only is it awkward and strange for anyone who has to clean it up- but why on earth would you ever keep any of that stuff in any company property whatsoever. It isn't "YOUR" property... that isn't your file cabinet, or your computer, or your desk.
As for corporate standards about naming names on websites, blogs, discussion threads, etc- if (and this does happen) human resources or IT discovers you have said anything regarding the firm, good or bad, without their prior approval- you can be terminated.
So perhaps that is why some people aren't uber excited to tell you what firm they are talking about. And if it is a corporate or starchitect firm, you will find out soon enough.
...As far as the H-1 visa holders... it sucks that many of those laid off were visa holders. An H1 visa is for a specialty occupation in which finding another person to fulfill that position is difficult and the person must have a bachelor's degree at the very least- including architecture and engineering. Should a recession occur, then those positions are often terminated because 1. It costs approximately an additional $4500 per person per year in attorney's fees and costs of maintaining the visa (usually much more than this- I have heard in excess of $10,000 when there is an issue with the originating country), 2. The existing country's population has already fulfilled these specialty positions especially true in time of a recession, 3. There is a time limit maximum on an H1 visa stay (excluding academia)
This does not mean a firm gets off scott-free when they lay off a visa-holder. They must pay for several expensive things- including transportation back to their country and any moving expenses incurred.
Any way you flip that coin, it isn't cheap.
Archmed:
Frankly, I'm shocked some of you wouldn't believe that there are rotten people out there who would subject innocent employees to this type of treatment.... And people are shocked when workers are given undignified layoffs?
It's not that I don't believe the firm in your story would treat employees in such a rotten, undignified way as much as it is that I don't believe that no one out of this whole bunch of people getting laid off seems to have fought back in any way. I can understand the H-1 holder not wanting to rock the boat, but you'd think at least one person in the group wouldn't have been so willing to just take it as the firm dished it out.
I think what your story points out more than anything is the need for us to stand together and stand up for one another in these situations. If this happens to any of us we should all be armed with a knowledge of our rights and be willing to fight for those rights to make damn sure nobody is leaving without, at a minimum, keys, wallet and phone.
Given strong threat of eminent lay-offs, clear your workspace of almost all your personal items, and clump your remaining items so that you can bail out in fifteen minutes. If you think about it, you can arrange your workspace to look occupied (and confident), yet be very portable. Older architects will recall earlier periods of massive lay-offs. Expect to get laid-off, and act accordingly. Get your resume material together, mentally prepare yourself, and check your budget cash-flow and savings. This is no recession.
Please don't take a lay-off personally anymore; firms now need to lay-off even their well-regarded and hard-working employees. It's not about "settling scores", "culling deadwood" or "protecting favorites" anymore. Client base for most Chicago firms has been decimated. Market sectors here in Chicago will be dormant for at least a couple years.
If it happens to you, sign up for COBRA; now 60% paid by firm and 40% paid by former employee, or possibly try to negotiate a better deal. Hope that your employer has a severance package, but note that some large firms used to bump employees with nothing more than health insurance for the remainder of calendar month.
Firms do want laid-off people out of the office ASAP, because of the awkwardness, the likely anger of terminated employee, anxiety of remaining employees, and perceived security threat to files and work product. Frankly, many people want to "just go" after being laid-off, to emotionally compose themselves. SOM Chicago was "cursed" by an unstable employee at first round of lay-offs in 1988 who refused to leave the conference room for hours; given magnitude of SOM's hundreds of lay-offs that followed in 1988-89, it most have worked.
The economy is worsening, firms can't continue to "carry" their employees as the work dramatically disappears. Many small firms will close; larger firms will need to shrink and/or consolidate with other firms. If you still have a job, watch out for your friends who have been laid-off. If they have cash flow problems, invite them for dinner, give them a friendly welcome, etc; it's a new cold reality.
SWEET JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!
We're all gonna die, aren't we?
No seriously, just for the record, if I saw anything like that happen to a colleague, I'd go in and defend him/her in any way even if it costs me my job and/or freedom. I could never sit back and watch something like that happen.
This site will be getting an update tomorrow but it will describe the places to go to file complaints and to get your lat paychecks etcetera.
Courtesy of WBEZ Chicago Public Radio
NY Times interactive graphic: Unemployment rates by county
In regards to all the horror stories about treatment of laid off staff, I think most of us (still working) know by now the protocol our respective employers take with layoffs. It should go without saying that if previously laid off staff were not allowed to return to their desks you shouldn't keep any personal effects at your desk in case the same should happen to you.
I think architecture has been hit a lot harder than most fields. I wonder, what percentage of the architecture workforce has been laid-off?
Update: still working as a construction manager and I just signed for an additional 2-month run.
People are reading this thread. Architectural Record contacted me about my posting here in this thread and it ended up as a mention in the current magazine.
http://archrecord.construction.com/archrecord2/work/0903/LaidOff.asp
great link, LIG.
There really isn't any easy way for someone to leave. Everyone knows what happened, the person is embarassed whether you go give them a pat on the back and your phone number or not.
But it seems like there is a happy medium here- when laying off an employee, do not escort them off the premises like a mallrat shoplifter - instead give them an hour or so to get their things, and get contacts from others as well as any relevant project info- and then arrange for them to get any large/leftover items after hours. Do not let people stay for hours on end (like 6 hours after you were let go) to clean things up- it's really awkward for everyone involved.
I have received several emails from former students as well as former interns looking for work. I would hate to be just graduating from school right now with impending student loan debt. At least if you have worked, and are laid off you will (in most cases) receive unemployment- and presumably you will get a letter of rec from your employer. But to be a recent grad is just rough. And so many professors out there are so out of touch with what is going on in firms- that they haven't even prepared their students for this.
nice job threshold!
Well it was even discussed here on archinect that when things got really ugly over at SOM around Thanksgiving people were laid off in masses and were told to just leave the premises immediately with a promise that all their belongings would be returned to them via mail.
The people I know who were there and either survived or were let go agreed that it was a very undignified layoff.
: great post. I think you have a very clear perspective on what's happening at the current moment and you give sound advice to those who fear they might be vulnerable.
times like these suck...no doubt about that. lives and careers are disrupted and nobody finds any satisfaction in what's taking place. firms lose access to skills and capabilities that they have invested heavily to develop.
but, firms must survive and (in most cases) firms are only doing what they have to do in order to survive. that's little consolation to those who lose their jobs, I know. but, for those who still have work I hope you can appreciate that sacrifices are being made for your benefit.
I remember after 9/11 when work dropped off suddenly. I knew a few firms in our area that waited way too long to start reducing costs. some of those firms didn't survive because they never could dig out of the hole they dug by delay. others, when they finally woke up to their true economic condition, had to cut much, much deeper that would have been the case if they had acted earlier.
it's clear that there's a lot of pain out there. I appreciate the post above that encouraged those here to reach out to those impacted by this economy. little, if any, of this is "deserved" ... there are many "victims" who need help. we (that means "you" and "me") need to rally as a community of design professionals to help each other to the extent that we can.
good luck to you all.
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