Practical question (esp. those in and around school)--
I am about to start my m.arch in the fall and was really lucky to be gifted a dell laptop (m1530 xps) which is all set to handle all programs i am looking to get access to (CS3 suite, CAD, Rhino, Max, even Revit if possible) and then some. The only catch is the only available OS is Windows Vista 32bit, and patching it up to run on XP is risky plus I will forfit the warranty.
Anyways--beyond this long explanation--does anyone out there know if good priated software exists yet for vista? and how hard it is to come by in the school environs?
just taking advantage of the resource of an open forum. i realize its not the straightest line between two points, but after the school loans, software is just not in the budget at the moment. i look forward to being able to pay for it someday though.
i am way too afraid of getting caught to use pirated software. students can get full versions of AutoCAD Architecture, Maya, and Revit for free from the Autodesk student community web site. There's a 30 day version of max there too. I poneyed up $200 for Adobe CS3 design standard, although you can get 30 day trial versions for free. There's a free 25-saves version of Rhino on their website and I think you can buy a student edition for like $180.
Bascially, if you make good usage of the free stuff from Autodesk, the limited trials from Adobe and Rhino, and whatever your school computer lab offers, you won't need to pay anything and you certainly won't need to pirate. If you've got $500 you can outfit your machine with all the software you'll ever need.
Also, be sure to ask your school of architecture's computer office if they will load school software on personal machines for free. Some schools will just give you all the autodesk and adobe programs (and rhino too) for your personal machine for free. Others will give you some of them. Others will give you none.
fiestarchie - its not worth the effort to look for less than legal software; we have all been there but software companies have taken this essential need by providing most of their works at no cost for students. In some cases it requires registration and a little authentication which is usually easy to get from you school (they only require a letter head and a signature most times). Also check with your UNI they may have access for students to load the software...I am aware that archis and microstation used to do this in the day, not sure about now.
others
$49 registration for SketchUp student discounts for adobe products (cs3, illustrator, indesign, etc)
now with the latest service pack...and the software service releases its not an issue...
I run Rhino, Maya, Revit, and CS3 suite...
with no problems.
about the software - I agree if you can afford it its better to get student licenses, I own my Rhino License and its great for getting all the updates, and plugins that come with it...
But if you cant even afford that....then you do what you got to do...
But if you cant even afford that....then you do what you got to do...
Really shaky moral ground here ... just a small step away from underpaying interns "because I can't afford more" ... just a small step away from padding your portfolio with work you didn't do "because my stuff really isn't as sharp as I'd like it to be" ... just a small step away from falsifying your resume "because I really need that job".
The essence of a profession is ethics ... ethics are rarely, if ever, situational.
Stealing is stealing. If this is how the next generation is getting started, God help us.
On many other tech-related discussion forums I frequent, inquiring about or discussing where to get pirated software is grounds for immediate and permanent banning from the forums, as well as swift deletion of the thread. Fiestarchie should be thankful that Archinect seems a bit more lenient about such things.
not to condone using pirated software, but i didnt know a single person in studio who didnt have at least two or three bootleg versions of something on their computer.
quizz- sorry mate but this next generation is saving a buck by sharing the versions of whatever we got hold of. i cant imagine having to have bought every program i used in school. we werent lucky enough to have computer labs with every program imaginable on the system.
IMO, it's like smoking pot: We all know lots of people do it and we can make a convincing argument that it should be legal, but in the meantime, you don't just walk into a bar and ask in a loud voice if anybody is selling.
quizzical, there is an interesting column out there somewhere by david pogue on pirated digital stuff.
at his lectures he has been asking people how far it was ok to go with pirated musica and videos etc...what was acceptable by a show of hands sort of thing. copying a cd for a friend, ok? yeh most are ok with that...ripped and downloaded song, ok? maybe. movie? no, that's illegal....and so on.
so, he found that there was usually a point where people started to get uncomfortable...then one day he was speaking at a university where the average age was predictably young. and he found there was no limit. everyone thought downloading stolen music, videos, whatever was perfectly fine.
he figures that this generation is going to force industry to change in big and small ways. kind of shocking.
as a rule though, dude, don't go on a public forum asking where to pick up stolen property. ethics aside (not that i disagree with quizz), it simply is not the right place...
Before jumping to conclusions, I think theres a difference between asking if something exists and execution--at this point in my asking, it is simply research. In a way, those that are on the other end against pirating probably have to ask the same question.
Sure enough, through this thread, I am happy to find that there are some other options--so thanks to all for suggestions and also reviews on vista. It has been most constructive.
"Stealing is stealing. If this is how the next generation is getting started, God help us."
I would normally agree but the new reality is a paradox: The software companies allow cracks to flourish so people will get their software and learn, yet if they get caught using it they are in trouble. The music industry wants you to download mp3s to spread a bands audiance but they want you to buy the next ones.
It would be impossible for even a salaried architect to buy all the programs they use for their home. I wish it were as easy as going out and getting a T-Square, Some vellum and some leads - but those days are long gone. Ive got about 15K worth of shit on machine at work here - the render guy is on a 12K dollar machine with 20K of software
if you're a student, and you're just using software to get work done in school, the stuff is out there and available- and there won't be any repercussions (except possibly from an overzealous prof)
how many times have software companies gone after individual students who use their pirated software for use in school?
if you're running a business on pirated software (or, say using academic licensed software to do professional work), i think, is kinda different(ish). at least i have much less sympathy for firms who pirate for profit- and i think the software industry (based on the suits that the BSA and like tend to file) has a similar attitude.
pay for what you use a lot and can afford. think about what your grandma would say...
as for xp/vista- i downgraded to xp when vista came installed on my last laptop, but i think i'm gonna go vista for the next workstation i build- mainly for better 64bit app support/ support for more than 3g ram, etc
u know how many profs i've bribed? it's not even funny they know the corporatism is not fair too. I call them lifeless institutions, who have hijacked the 14th amendment of the USA that was supposed to give blacks land ownership rights but layers turned it into non accountability mechanism even a hijacking at times of our governments.
and the new politics of Europe defines these heavy handed copyrights and patents as violations of human rights.
there is no need for any excuse do what you can with your human energy because we are all alive looking for satisfaction often time we are cogs to these very institutions, enjoy the ride in this complex paradox. fear not be strong protect your brothers and sisters from oppression.
you have bribed proffesors? whats next building inspectors?
If there is profit made on something illegal its a problem. otherwise the advatange is still with the company. It's another form of gorrilla marketing.
At my old firm, we had a copy of AutoCAD 2004 with a 0000000000000 serial number, but most of the "working drawings" were issued on vectorworks which they had legit copies of.
dual boot to win xp...there are ways to create another partition on the drive and then install xp to that new partition. it won't void your warranty, especially if you have a vista restore disk you can use later if needed.
btw I don't condone the pirating of software (since I have developed my share of software apps), so I suggest you do the student version or trial version thing.
"this next generation is saving a buck by sharing the versions of whatever we got hold of"
sorry mate - this logic doesn't work any better than when "older generations" save a buck by under paying, or not paying, interns.
communist manifesto philosophical jibberish doesn't make the theft of intellectual property something it's not - it's still theft and it's disgraceful for aspiring professionals to engage in this practice.
if you compromise your ethics this early out of "need" where will you be when you face really difficult professional decisions?
since we're being logical about this--unpaid intern labor is likely used in a for-profit situation, whereas student use of questionable software is likely not. in both cases, however, i am an advocate of sharing the wealth...
fiestarchie - I forgot to mention that you can find alternative programs for CS3 and Illustrator that use native commands on downloads.com - some are freeware others have a limited use (mostly 30, 60, 90 day). Most that I have used save to similar formats.
I don't like that the big 2 (Autodesk and Adobe) want to make a huge bundle off their software...with faster better software coming into the market that allow you to do the same and with better compatibility it will be like the mac/pc issue is now...a non-issue
Yup architechnophilia is right, if you need office software, look into Openoffice (very similar to the microsoft office with word, excel, etc.) and there are many free pdf writers out there as well, if you need that ability.
Quizzical, I am assuming you are from the days of T squares.....
not having to worry about software as a student....
So in other words you are telling someone...who might not have had the same opportunities as someonw who comes from money (born into money). That if they do not have funding for software or parents like some of these "money Kids" to give up on their dreams...and just go work at micky d's or something of that sort..
I dont think so...Sometimes in life to get where you have to get...you do what you got to do.. I am not saying killl or hurt someone....But borrowing software to learn how to use for a non commercial purpose should not be a big deal...
Everyone at some point, Gets illegal software, smoke a j,....and even tell lies.....
"So in other words you are telling someone...who might not have had the same opportunities as someonw who comes from money (born into money). That if they do not have funding for software or parents like some of these "money Kids" to give up on their dreams...and just go work at micky d's or something of that sort."
Not at all ... I'm saying that we all have choices to make about how we spend our time and our money. We make our own decisions about where we're going to attend school and how that's going to be funded.
There seemed to be an assumption at the beginning of this thread that the only choice was to steal this software, and that would be ok ... however, poster after poster has raised legitimate alternatives to that assumption ... financial aid is available if one pursues it ... low cost or free licenses are available to students ... god forbid, the student actually could hold a job while in school (as I did, and as did my own children) to defray these costs.
I'm saying that "convenience" or "need" or "laziness" do not warrant theft - in any circumstance. There are reasonable alternatives for a moral, ethical person.
T-squares vs. computers is a specious debate ... you know nothing of my circumstances at the time I went to school ... you should not make assumptions about the roots of my position on this debate.
it's true...between freeware vector programs, raster image manipulation programs, drafting programs and the like AND trial software, you can manage to still use a computer for your education and not "do what you have to do" by pirating software. sometimes learning alternative software packages that do the same as the BIG 2 (autodesk, adobe) is helpful because you can learn the difference in commands and the way people typically design software packages through using it and eventually understanding the rationale. this is helpful because software changes over time, the need for software merely evolves. besides, outside of explicit classes targeted at the use of software packages, I got no direction or instruction in school about using a computer for design, so you can use any package you like so long as the desired result is achieved.
then again, I look back at my hand drawings and I like them so much more than the computer drawings/renderings because there is so much life in the hand drawing (or even the hand sketch) than a worked over, post-production rendering of adobe illustrator-ized plan/section.
but quizz, i could say the same thing. you dont know the circumstance of others when they are in school*. again, i am not condoning stealing but i am also not saying that i havent stolen.
*i worked 20-30 hours a week during school and went full time. i took student loans when necessary. i used a fair amount of free software and student licenses. what happens when the 30 day trial runs up? that is barely enough time to get a grasp on the program(?)
linking to another thread, it was asked how many programs to know. well how can we know these programs that firms almost require you to know prior to application? are we supposed to spend 30k to learn them all before graduation on top of tuition, housing, food and the shear cost of materials for school?
im sorry but when it comes down to it, it just makes sense to "borrow" or flat out steal.
how can we know these programs that firms almost require you to know?
I can only speak to my own experience and that of my firm ... we don't expect you to know 100% of the software we use ... we're prepared to teach you the platforms we use in our office, if you don't already have that knowledge.
What we look for in candidates is the capacity to learn software and the demonstrated ability to do something meaningful with the software you've been using. We're looking at your ability to think and to design and to make a contribution.
Moreover, I don't know any other firms in our community (a very large metropolitan area) who expect candidates to know all the software out there -- such a view simply would not be realistic. If a firm is only interested in what software you know, then I'd be really concerned about the type of work they're going to have you undertake.
By the way, I do have a good understanding of students in college -- I've just graduated two children from college in the past 3 years and I interview and hire graduates of architecture programs every quarter.
I really do appreciate the challenges faced by college students these days ... they are considerable. And, I hate to come across as "preachy" in this thread. But, if you don't conduct yourself according to a certain moral code in your early life, you are at great risk of bringing really bad - and dangerous - habits with you to the profession once you enter.
Drug addicts and drunks the world over always say "I can stop anytime I want" -- it simply isn't true. The same can be said of people who view software piracy as a non-issue when in college, but promise they'll "reform" once they receive their degree.
I have an excessive masturbation habit. And I stole some cold cuts from the charcuterie. Am I not good for the profession of architecture? Can I be reformed?
Please cut this morality / guilt accusations bs, I am gonna throw up now.
ACAD programs are way too expensive for a lot of people to afford. Period! We must resist and piracy is one way to bring the monopolists to their senses.
terrific idea, DZ -- let's all do whatever we want to do, whenever we want to do it, with no thought as to the consequences or who might be harmed by the behavior. hey - it's always about what I want, right?
oh, and by the way, how about publishing your home address here so we all can drop by to pick up a little free furniture. my roomates and I need a new sofa for our college apartment and we're just too damn lazy to earn the money to buy one.
if software companies were "okay" with students using software illegally so that they learn it and love it and become future customers, then they would release free student versions (like autodesk has) so that there would be no need to go roundabout and do something actually illegal.
but as i started off near the top of this thread, i don't really morally have a problem with students ripping off software - because they'll be future customers, and everyone gets well-paid in the end - same with downloading music, etc. but i don't actually do either because i am way too afraid of getting sued. i can't have that happen. thus, no illegal behavior.
interesting thread - let's look at this from a different perspective.
scenario 1 - really talented architecture student, fairly well along toward his degree, designs this really cool house as a studio assignment - at the end of the academic year, the college has a reception during which it displays for the community some of the best student work from the academic year. sleazeball home builder walks around the room with a digital camera, likes this "really cool house" design he sees and takes a picture of the plans and elevations, which he then takes to his drafting service to work up a set of "blueprints" - builds the house spec. and sells it for a $400,000 profit.
scenario 2 - struggling young design firm with three partners has a bumpy first 5 years - manages to stay in business, gather a few decent design commissions and eke out a small profit. but, it puts a lot of strain on all the partners. finally, one partner - the technical one who mostly liked to do CDs - says he's had enough of the struggle, resigns from the firm and hangs out his own shingle. He then puts up a website and starts showing - as his work - images of the work actually designed by his two partners at the prior firm.
both of these scenarios are taken from real life situations
in both cases, "intellectual property" of young architects was appropriated and easily replicated by the undeserving, without compensation to the true creators of that intellectual property.
seems to me there are some similarities between these two scenarios and the debate raging above.
quote:
"sleazeball home builder walks around the room with a digital camera, likes this "really cool house" design he sees and takes a picture of the plans and elevations, which he then takes to his drafting service to work up a set of "blueprints" -.."
If sleazeball liked this project and acutally ended up with a profit on it, I guess the original wasn't such a cool project to begin with...
Besides, I find the intellectual property analogy trivial in terms of building design...
i sound extremely hypocritical when i say that i dont condone the piracy yet have stolen some myself here and there. i know this. i dont think that my few instances have led me to become a klepto or a drug fiend, but i understand your point. there is the possibility and you are trying to get the point across that if you dont make a stand now then where will you be in the years to come.
also, file. there was a stipulation in my architecture school that said that while we designed in the studio the work was of their property- since we were under "supervision" while in school. do you think that if this builder stole from a student while that student was in school that the school could then file suit since the work was hypothetically or situationally property of the institution?
less than legal software for Vista
Practical question (esp. those in and around school)--
I am about to start my m.arch in the fall and was really lucky to be gifted a dell laptop (m1530 xps) which is all set to handle all programs i am looking to get access to (CS3 suite, CAD, Rhino, Max, even Revit if possible) and then some. The only catch is the only available OS is Windows Vista 32bit, and patching it up to run on XP is risky plus I will forfit the warranty.
Anyways--beyond this long explanation--does anyone out there know if good priated software exists yet for vista? and how hard it is to come by in the school environs?
Thanks in advance.
so, what are we .. a profession of thieves?
just taking advantage of the resource of an open forum. i realize its not the straightest line between two points, but after the school loans, software is just not in the budget at the moment. i look forward to being able to pay for it someday though.
i am way too afraid of getting caught to use pirated software. students can get full versions of AutoCAD Architecture, Maya, and Revit for free from the Autodesk student community web site. There's a 30 day version of max there too. I poneyed up $200 for Adobe CS3 design standard, although you can get 30 day trial versions for free. There's a free 25-saves version of Rhino on their website and I think you can buy a student edition for like $180.
Bascially, if you make good usage of the free stuff from Autodesk, the limited trials from Adobe and Rhino, and whatever your school computer lab offers, you won't need to pay anything and you certainly won't need to pirate. If you've got $500 you can outfit your machine with all the software you'll ever need.
Also, be sure to ask your school of architecture's computer office if they will load school software on personal machines for free. Some schools will just give you all the autodesk and adobe programs (and rhino too) for your personal machine for free. Others will give you some of them. Others will give you none.
Good luck. Don't go to jail!
dude, dont use vista. you'll thank yourself later.
ArchiCAD 11
ProgeCAD Smart
(AutoCAD emulator)
fiestarchie - its not worth the effort to look for less than legal software; we have all been there but software companies have taken this essential need by providing most of their works at no cost for students. In some cases it requires registration and a little authentication which is usually easy to get from you school (they only require a letter head and a signature most times). Also check with your UNI they may have access for students to load the software...I am aware that archis and microstation used to do this in the day, not sure about now.
others
$49 registration for SketchUp
student discounts for adobe products (cs3, illustrator, indesign, etc)
agreed. load xp if possible.
it wont be a problem getting any full version of any software you could possibly want once you get to school..
professors, students... just ask around, someone will have what you need.
rhino, maya, acad, cs3, maxwell, v-ray... all the goods.
honestly i was under the assumption that programs made for xp would work on vista... but maybe im wrong?
(over_under isn't wrong)
I just got a copy of InDesign and it wont run on vista, so over, not all programs will transfer. My ACAD 2005 did, though.
Dont worry about VISTA ...dont need XP....
I have an HPdv9500
With a 64 bir vista ultimate..
At first vista would give you more issues....
now with the latest service pack...and the software service releases its not an issue...
I run Rhino, Maya, Revit, and CS3 suite...
with no problems.
about the software - I agree if you can afford it its better to get student licenses, I own my Rhino License and its great for getting all the updates, and plugins that come with it...
But if you cant even afford that....then you do what you got to do...
bittorents --thats all I got to say
Sara H,
What version of indesign r u running...
I run cs3 with no problems....about CAD....Vista only runs Autocad 2008 or higher....
I have no problem importing anythin
I dont use cad on my system--all my cadwork is done in rhino...
but thats another story
dfx I actually have 2006 running on vista, much faster load time than on my other laptop with xp.
despite what alot of ppl say about vista, i brought a new toshiba that came with vista and got max, autocad and cs2 to all run perfectly.
2008-2009 version of programs listed above should all work.
Really shaky moral ground here ... just a small step away from underpaying interns "because I can't afford more" ... just a small step away from padding your portfolio with work you didn't do "because my stuff really isn't as sharp as I'd like it to be" ... just a small step away from falsifying your resume "because I really need that job".
The essence of a profession is ethics ... ethics are rarely, if ever, situational.
Stealing is stealing. If this is how the next generation is getting started, God help us.
On many other tech-related discussion forums I frequent, inquiring about or discussing where to get pirated software is grounds for immediate and permanent banning from the forums, as well as swift deletion of the thread. Fiestarchie should be thankful that Archinect seems a bit more lenient about such things.
not to condone using pirated software, but i didnt know a single person in studio who didnt have at least two or three bootleg versions of something on their computer.
quizz- sorry mate but this next generation is saving a buck by sharing the versions of whatever we got hold of. i cant imagine having to have bought every program i used in school. we werent lucky enough to have computer labs with every program imaginable on the system.
IMO, it's like smoking pot: We all know lots of people do it and we can make a convincing argument that it should be legal, but in the meantime, you don't just walk into a bar and ask in a loud voice if anybody is selling.
quizzical, there is an interesting column out there somewhere by david pogue on pirated digital stuff.
at his lectures he has been asking people how far it was ok to go with pirated musica and videos etc...what was acceptable by a show of hands sort of thing. copying a cd for a friend, ok? yeh most are ok with that...ripped and downloaded song, ok? maybe. movie? no, that's illegal....and so on.
so, he found that there was usually a point where people started to get uncomfortable...then one day he was speaking at a university where the average age was predictably young. and he found there was no limit. everyone thought downloading stolen music, videos, whatever was perfectly fine.
he figures that this generation is going to force industry to change in big and small ways. kind of shocking.
as a rule though, dude, don't go on a public forum asking where to pick up stolen property. ethics aside (not that i disagree with quizz), it simply is not the right place...
Before jumping to conclusions, I think theres a difference between asking if something exists and execution--at this point in my asking, it is simply research. In a way, those that are on the other end against pirating probably have to ask the same question.
Sure enough, through this thread, I am happy to find that there are some other options--so thanks to all for suggestions and also reviews on vista. It has been most constructive.
unless you're posting to a warez forum.
who cares about the warranty trap
go XP64 bit or windows 2008
poor nick they got him just where they want him
in fear
"Stealing is stealing. If this is how the next generation is getting started, God help us."
I would normally agree but the new reality is a paradox: The software companies allow cracks to flourish so people will get their software and learn, yet if they get caught using it they are in trouble. The music industry wants you to download mp3s to spread a bands audiance but they want you to buy the next ones.
It would be impossible for even a salaried architect to buy all the programs they use for their home. I wish it were as easy as going out and getting a T-Square, Some vellum and some leads - but those days are long gone. Ive got about 15K worth of shit on machine at work here - the render guy is on a 12K dollar machine with 20K of software
if you're a student, and you're just using software to get work done in school, the stuff is out there and available- and there won't be any repercussions (except possibly from an overzealous prof)
how many times have software companies gone after individual students who use their pirated software for use in school?
if you're running a business on pirated software (or, say using academic licensed software to do professional work), i think, is kinda different(ish). at least i have much less sympathy for firms who pirate for profit- and i think the software industry (based on the suits that the BSA and like tend to file) has a similar attitude.
pay for what you use a lot and can afford. think about what your grandma would say...
as for xp/vista- i downgraded to xp when vista came installed on my last laptop, but i think i'm gonna go vista for the next workstation i build- mainly for better 64bit app support/ support for more than 3g ram, etc
u know how many profs i've bribed? it's not even funny they know the corporatism is not fair too. I call them lifeless institutions, who have hijacked the 14th amendment of the USA that was supposed to give blacks land ownership rights but layers turned it into non accountability mechanism even a hijacking at times of our governments.
and the new politics of Europe defines these heavy handed copyrights and patents as violations of human rights.
there is no need for any excuse do what you can with your human energy because we are all alive looking for satisfaction often time we are cogs to these very institutions, enjoy the ride in this complex paradox. fear not be strong protect your brothers and sisters from oppression.
you have bribed proffesors? whats next building inspectors?
If there is profit made on something illegal its a problem. otherwise the advatange is still with the company. It's another form of gorrilla marketing.
At my old firm, we had a copy of AutoCAD 2004 with a 0000000000000 serial number, but most of the "working drawings" were issued on vectorworks which they had legit copies of.
man you could have made a easy 50 G's
i like the pot comment. thats funny.
dual boot to win xp...there are ways to create another partition on the drive and then install xp to that new partition. it won't void your warranty, especially if you have a vista restore disk you can use later if needed.
btw I don't condone the pirating of software (since I have developed my share of software apps), so I suggest you do the student version or trial version thing.
Long time no see, hope life is treatin' you well there l8r.
sorry mate - this logic doesn't work any better than when "older generations" save a buck by under paying, or not paying, interns.
communist manifesto philosophical jibberish doesn't make the theft of intellectual property something it's not - it's still theft and it's disgraceful for aspiring professionals to engage in this practice.
if you compromise your ethics this early out of "need" where will you be when you face really difficult professional decisions?
since we're being logical about this--unpaid intern labor is likely used in a for-profit situation, whereas student use of questionable software is likely not. in both cases, however, i am an advocate of sharing the wealth...
fiestarchie - so, you need, therefore you take. no sense whatsoever of needing to earn what you have.
a convenient, self-absorbed rationalization
I'm ashamed to be a part of the same profession as you.
fiestarchie - I forgot to mention that you can find alternative programs for CS3 and Illustrator that use native commands on downloads.com - some are freeware others have a limited use (mostly 30, 60, 90 day). Most that I have used save to similar formats.
I don't like that the big 2 (Autodesk and Adobe) want to make a huge bundle off their software...with faster better software coming into the market that allow you to do the same and with better compatibility it will be like the mac/pc issue is now...a non-issue
if anyone has a revit 09 serial i have a keygen. i am Vince Clorto Keymaster of Gosser are u the gatekeeper?
Yup architechnophilia is right, if you need office software, look into Openoffice (very similar to the microsoft office with word, excel, etc.) and there are many free pdf writers out there as well, if you need that ability.
Quizzical, I am assuming you are from the days of T squares.....
not having to worry about software as a student....
So in other words you are telling someone...who might not have had the same opportunities as someonw who comes from money (born into money). That if they do not have funding for software or parents like some of these "money Kids" to give up on their dreams...and just go work at micky d's or something of that sort..
I dont think so...Sometimes in life to get where you have to get...you do what you got to do.. I am not saying killl or hurt someone....But borrowing software to learn how to use for a non commercial purpose should not be a big deal...
Everyone at some point, Gets illegal software, smoke a j,....and even tell lies.....
...
DF
Not at all ... I'm saying that we all have choices to make about how we spend our time and our money. We make our own decisions about where we're going to attend school and how that's going to be funded.
There seemed to be an assumption at the beginning of this thread that the only choice was to steal this software, and that would be ok ... however, poster after poster has raised legitimate alternatives to that assumption ... financial aid is available if one pursues it ... low cost or free licenses are available to students ... god forbid, the student actually could hold a job while in school (as I did, and as did my own children) to defray these costs.
I'm saying that "convenience" or "need" or "laziness" do not warrant theft - in any circumstance. There are reasonable alternatives for a moral, ethical person.
T-squares vs. computers is a specious debate ... you know nothing of my circumstances at the time I went to school ... you should not make assumptions about the roots of my position on this debate.
it's true...between freeware vector programs, raster image manipulation programs, drafting programs and the like AND trial software, you can manage to still use a computer for your education and not "do what you have to do" by pirating software. sometimes learning alternative software packages that do the same as the BIG 2 (autodesk, adobe) is helpful because you can learn the difference in commands and the way people typically design software packages through using it and eventually understanding the rationale. this is helpful because software changes over time, the need for software merely evolves. besides, outside of explicit classes targeted at the use of software packages, I got no direction or instruction in school about using a computer for design, so you can use any package you like so long as the desired result is achieved.
then again, I look back at my hand drawings and I like them so much more than the computer drawings/renderings because there is so much life in the hand drawing (or even the hand sketch) than a worked over, post-production rendering of adobe illustrator-ized plan/section.
but quizz, i could say the same thing. you dont know the circumstance of others when they are in school*. again, i am not condoning stealing but i am also not saying that i havent stolen.
*i worked 20-30 hours a week during school and went full time. i took student loans when necessary. i used a fair amount of free software and student licenses. what happens when the 30 day trial runs up? that is barely enough time to get a grasp on the program(?)
linking to another thread, it was asked how many programs to know. well how can we know these programs that firms almost require you to know prior to application? are we supposed to spend 30k to learn them all before graduation on top of tuition, housing, food and the shear cost of materials for school?
im sorry but when it comes down to it, it just makes sense to "borrow" or flat out steal.
I can only speak to my own experience and that of my firm ... we don't expect you to know 100% of the software we use ... we're prepared to teach you the platforms we use in our office, if you don't already have that knowledge.
What we look for in candidates is the capacity to learn software and the demonstrated ability to do something meaningful with the software you've been using. We're looking at your ability to think and to design and to make a contribution.
Moreover, I don't know any other firms in our community (a very large metropolitan area) who expect candidates to know all the software out there -- such a view simply would not be realistic. If a firm is only interested in what software you know, then I'd be really concerned about the type of work they're going to have you undertake.
By the way, I do have a good understanding of students in college -- I've just graduated two children from college in the past 3 years and I interview and hire graduates of architecture programs every quarter.
I really do appreciate the challenges faced by college students these days ... they are considerable. And, I hate to come across as "preachy" in this thread. But, if you don't conduct yourself according to a certain moral code in your early life, you are at great risk of bringing really bad - and dangerous - habits with you to the profession once you enter.
Drug addicts and drunks the world over always say "I can stop anytime I want" -- it simply isn't true. The same can be said of people who view software piracy as a non-issue when in college, but promise they'll "reform" once they receive their degree.
I have an excessive masturbation habit. And I stole some cold cuts from the charcuterie. Am I not good for the profession of architecture? Can I be reformed?
Please cut this morality / guilt accusations bs, I am gonna throw up now.
ACAD programs are way too expensive for a lot of people to afford. Period! We must resist and piracy is one way to bring the monopolists to their senses.
terrific idea, DZ -- let's all do whatever we want to do, whenever we want to do it, with no thought as to the consequences or who might be harmed by the behavior. hey - it's always about what I want, right?
oh, and by the way, how about publishing your home address here so we all can drop by to pick up a little free furniture. my roomates and I need a new sofa for our college apartment and we're just too damn lazy to earn the money to buy one.
A sofa is not (yet) able to be duplicated for free.
And anyway, would you really want degree zero's sofa? Given his admission above about his habits?
If you are using the software for business - pay for it...
If it's for school, training or just messing around in your sparetime - never pay!!
if software companies were "okay" with students using software illegally so that they learn it and love it and become future customers, then they would release free student versions (like autodesk has) so that there would be no need to go roundabout and do something actually illegal.
but as i started off near the top of this thread, i don't really morally have a problem with students ripping off software - because they'll be future customers, and everyone gets well-paid in the end - same with downloading music, etc. but i don't actually do either because i am way too afraid of getting sued. i can't have that happen. thus, no illegal behavior.
interesting thread - let's look at this from a different perspective.
scenario 1 - really talented architecture student, fairly well along toward his degree, designs this really cool house as a studio assignment - at the end of the academic year, the college has a reception during which it displays for the community some of the best student work from the academic year. sleazeball home builder walks around the room with a digital camera, likes this "really cool house" design he sees and takes a picture of the plans and elevations, which he then takes to his drafting service to work up a set of "blueprints" - builds the house spec. and sells it for a $400,000 profit.
scenario 2 - struggling young design firm with three partners has a bumpy first 5 years - manages to stay in business, gather a few decent design commissions and eke out a small profit. but, it puts a lot of strain on all the partners. finally, one partner - the technical one who mostly liked to do CDs - says he's had enough of the struggle, resigns from the firm and hangs out his own shingle. He then puts up a website and starts showing - as his work - images of the work actually designed by his two partners at the prior firm.
both of these scenarios are taken from real life situations
in both cases, "intellectual property" of young architects was appropriated and easily replicated by the undeserving, without compensation to the true creators of that intellectual property.
seems to me there are some similarities between these two scenarios and the debate raging above.
quote:
"sleazeball home builder walks around the room with a digital camera, likes this "really cool house" design he sees and takes a picture of the plans and elevations, which he then takes to his drafting service to work up a set of "blueprints" -.."
If sleazeball liked this project and acutally ended up with a profit on it, I guess the original wasn't such a cool project to begin with...
Besides, I find the intellectual property analogy trivial in terms of building design...
i sound extremely hypocritical when i say that i dont condone the piracy yet have stolen some myself here and there. i know this. i dont think that my few instances have led me to become a klepto or a drug fiend, but i understand your point. there is the possibility and you are trying to get the point across that if you dont make a stand now then where will you be in the years to come.
also, file. there was a stipulation in my architecture school that said that while we designed in the studio the work was of their property- since we were under "supervision" while in school. do you think that if this builder stole from a student while that student was in school that the school could then file suit since the work was hypothetically or situationally property of the institution?
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