I am just trying to figure out how this one scenario is weighted so heavily when other threads on this site condone much more negative behaviors that, to me, reflect much worse character or integrity in some of the members.

OF, as a sage of the 'nect, I have alot of respect for you, but as bucku pointed out above your post smacks of naivety. You can't judge an entire person's character because they bootlegged a copy of ACAD in college because they were too lazy to go use the school computers. You guys are seriously acting like this is on par with a serious crime, like assaulting an old lady and stealing her purse our breaking into somebody's home a stealing their stuff. It just a bunch of college kids doing what they do. I keep fucking repeating myself and its getting really annoying, if autodesk took huge umbrage with students bootlegging their software, they'd do something about it. ACAD communicates with ADSK's central servers all the time right? So what the hell is stopping them from just deactivating a copy with an illegit serial number like microsoft does with windows, or filing a lawsuit? ADSK isn't an old lady with her whole life savings stuck under the mattress, its a multinational corporation that makes billions of dollars a year and part of the reason for that is how familiar we all become with their software while in school. Jesus, some of you older guys need to realize like just how you used to do LSD and smoke dope in college, that doesn't necessarily make you an untrustworthy person. Same goes for kids bootlegging software/movies/music, etc.

and bitterness

what can be done will be done. the corporation only enables fascism,
it is high time for a renegotiation of their limited mandate that is far overextended at this point.

and remember there is no honest person.

"and remember there is no honest person"

yes

Old fogey, would you also condemn public defenders? Our system of values and laws is defined by people testing them, how can you condemn people so easily? do you not think that people have argued the merits of just about every crime in our books. The relationship of those crimes to the values of society is in constant flux.

I look forward to seeing you cast your stone at ever act you deem unworthy, seeing as you are obviously without sin.

Your narrow minded response would lead many people to the conclusion that working for you would be a joke! Why would anyone want to work for an arrogant old bastard unwilling to consider the other side of any point of view and so easily dismissing people as unworthy of a professional career?

Your lack of trust will cause you to miss out on some of the greatest talent that will come your way. Not everyone is out to steal your shit. And there’s a huge difference between stealing your personal information and copying software. if your not able to realize this I’m sorry for you. Worrying that everyone is out to get you is a sad way to go through life.

If you want the program so that you can learn the program, and thus create impetus for a future employee to buy a copy of the expensive program - that's basically considered an "investment" by the software company. Its called grey area, learn to live with it.

If you want the program to make money (whether or not you're a student) then buy the program already. You are using your effort to create a design and expect to get paid for it - why should the guy who made the program that allows you to do so be any different?

And lastly, why is this such a hard concept to understand?

because we are in the last days of the old conservative guard
they are dieing and retiring at astronomical rates.

and thus the new generation steps in to replace them , a few make allot of noise defending their old values as they go.

Antisthenes ... you parrot a lot of the radical rhetoric that was so popular back during the late 60s early 70s. most of the radicals I knew back then are now just a bunch of lame, burned-out, irrelevant old hippies who haven't had a new idea in 30 years.

new generations alway replace older generations ... the real question is whether their leadership actually paves new ground, makes change simply for the sake of making change, or actually makes things worse because they refuse to heed the lessons of history.

stone, exactly that is y we don't like hippies

= good for nothing

the more things change, the more they stay the same.

OF, critical metrics is hilarious... i haven't listened to Afrika Bambaataa in years!

but i'd like to address this music thing...

are we certain that it is "illegal downloading" that changed the music industry? and not private radio stations being bought out and replaced by generic crap stations by clear channel? that, combined with the music industry hitting a wall by churning out crap after crap plays more of a roll, i think. most of the music i grabbed off of napster back in the day wasn't the recent stuff, it was the older, rarer gems like jeff mills and brazil '66.

role.

crap, i think it's late.

the point is that record companies used to produce music that was on the edge because they were making enough money to support it even if it didn't lead to income...now they can't do that cuz their margins have become smaller. for whatever reason...i think the illegal downloading is a clear player in the game. so the result is they stick to the pablum cuz even if it isn't big bucks they can predict the outcome better...so the world got poorer. at least for now.


i find the above a bit disconcerting for the same reason as OF. stealing is just stealing. just admit it. bloody hell but it is amazing how some of the justification-stuff sounds like the gob my old buddies would spout about why they shouldna had to do time for their crimes and how the judge din understand and it was because of their race...and anyway they were wasted when they got nailed for B&E and weren't in their right mind so it shouldn't count , and fuck but the world is unfair. calling bullshit on that stuff is just a requirement.

no one is entitled to free stuff. except healthcare. you all deserve that for free.

OF, i knew you were wiser than came off in your first post which is why i was shocked by your "holier-than-thou" tone.

For the record, I agree with everything you said and I would hope most people understand that in the back of their mind stealing software is morally wrong.

Hell, I think even Antitheses has a legit copies of all his Rhino stuff.

moralism is relative.

Old Fogey
Thank you for wording your response in a positive and understanding way; I was most definitely shocked by your first post, especially stating that anyone who has copied software or music is no longer worthy of further trust or a career in architecture.

I agree with what you’re saying, but at the same time I feel that these changes in moral fortitude are an expression of our changing reality, I have a lot of friends who are involved with music and I’m not sure I would agree that music today has suffered. There are now many more avenues of reaching an audience then there were 20 years ago, and I think many would argue that the music scenes today are richer because of it.

I believe that software is currently undergoing a similar change and we are seeing the results, through more open source software and freeware, and FREE STUDENT or FREE limited versions available. The illegal pirating of software has, just as in music forced or at least played a major part in this change, and while it may be illegal it can still have a positive influence on the future.

I find it morally objectionable to make money off of anything that is not legit, whether it is music or software, I wouldn’t dream of justifying running any kind of business with this kind of moral dilemma at its root.

At the same time I think that this kind of theft has its place and for the most part that place is to help expose new people to new experiences, whether that means downloading software to gain experience with it, or downloading music to listen to. I believe that these acts do ultimately help the other party. With software, as you did, most people end up buying or at least influencing the purchase of that software later in life, with music it results in greater exposure getting people to talk about music and helping to gain support for growing artists, which ultimately translates to greater sales and a greater economic return.

The average person who downloads anything is far from average. These people are an important part of epidemic type spreading of information that has in many instances substituted the traditional marketing schemes of mainstream media. For every person who illegally downloads something there are many more people who buy it because that’s what everyone is using or talking about.

As with any change in a system there is bound to be some downside and I understand that multinational corporations such as record companies and autodesk have suffered because this type exposure does not benefit them as much since they already have an established audience and they are often the chief opponent of such acts. This is why people find it easy to “rail against the man”. This is not my intention, and neither is supporting illegal behavior. But I do think it’s important to recognize the positive effects of this behavior along with the obvious negative. This is how we will learn about possible future changes and learn how to embrace them and incorporate the positive aspects of shared information into new technologies and endeavors that will not have such a moral objection.

funny, I don't remember having to pay for the software licenses in my computer lab...granted, it was part of my tuition and thereby an extension of my education, but the option was there. at this point, you are practically talking about the matter of student convenience rather than need. the labs at my school were open all the time, armed with all the software packages (adobe, autodesk) to get by, and when we asked for other titles, we were provided with them (revit, sketchup). why does the student necessarily need these packages on his/her computer also?

You know why students want the software on their computers? So they don't have to sit in an uncomfortable chair in the lab when they can sit anywhere they please like a bed or couch. The lab is too rigid.

-Christian

when i went to school even the instructors and deans realized it hwas high way robbery and would give students copies of the software to copy from the labs.