I think if I was going to try this Ebay approach to marketing I'd probably auction some small number of hours worth of architectural services rather than commit to a year without knowing the client or their architectural needs. It's hard to say who might shop for architects on Ebay, but the advertising exposure MIGHT be worth some number of hours of work - but I don't think I'd want to commit my firm to a year!
for a young, energetic firm, they have a terrible site. and with almost no portfolio, how could anyone - even the worst of developers - actually want to hire these people for a year, putting down 10 percent down with nothing to show for it. while the idea of auctioning off architectural services on ebay is unusual, it might just be an interesting marketing device. ive never seen it done before, that's for sure. however,it doesn't seem that these guys have the portfolio for anyone to chance a year long commitment.
25 000 seems like too high a price for someone to pay for a years worth of design services when the architect has provided no example of design ability. and 25 000 seem like too low a price for a firm to commit to any nutjob with 25k. could the grief on either side be worth it?
What a nut. To hire an intern for a year costs twice $25,000 once you include taxes etc. So they not only are bad designers, they are bad businessmen. This is NOT the kind of advertising you want to grow a firm.
My suspicion is that this is a one or two person firm and that they're currently "underutilized" - i.e. they could use a few more clients to fill up all of their own potentially billable hours - not that they're considering hiring an intern to do this particular project. Most likely they're thinking that this 25k would cover a certain portion of their own potential billable time over the course of the year, though certainly not all of it.
I've seen a few Ebay auctions for architectural consultations before - for some small number of hours (4 to 15 hours) that were started in the range of $100 or so minimum bid. In addition to the auction itself serving as free advertising to anyone who views it, it's also likely that the posters felt they'd get additional paid hours out of those clients.
This firm's website doesn't even include any firm profile/resume/experience/introduction of the principals - so if their tactic is to place this auction as advertising, not thinking that anyone will actually bid on it, it still seems there's not much info on them on which to base a decision to call them...
Ormolu, I am sure you are right, that they are trying to fill out their own hours, which is even more sad- they are willing to work at less than an intern rate. How could a client trust their judgement when they didn't even think to define what a year's worth of architectural consulting means? All the work the client can give them in a year? All the work they do on their lunch hours in a year? What one person normally works in a year? Their construction drawings are probably loaded with phrases like "as necessary" and "contractor is responsible for meeting all codes". I could absolutely see someone selling off 20 hours of time in hopes that it leads to a larger job, but this just seems so short sighted and ill-conceived.
tman: I completely agree about the risks of the unknown client, etc.
But I think in your analysis of the hourly rates you're jumping to conclusions. Let's say that the principal's hourly billing rate is $80 (typical for small residential firm in New England.) If he bills an average of 6 hours per week for 50 weeks of the year he'd be at 25k.
Now of course he probably isn't working 6 hours every week on this project - it's probably more like 40 hours some weeks and 0 hours others. But so long as he has 4 or 5 similar clients in the year (or 12 smaller clients, or 3 bigger clients...) then he does pretty well (we have to assume he can only be about 85% billable at most.) We'd have to assume that how many hours he puts in and in what capacity would be negotiated with the client before or after the auction ends.
I see your logic Aluminate, but my point is how stupid are they not to define what a year's worth of services means? What if someone hires them and says, ok for the next year, you are working on my $10,000,000 strip center mall project. Easily doable in a year, but what a dumb fee. Even assuming someone hires them to do a custom house that is going to be built for $450,000, that's still a low fee, and lots of risk. Kind of dumb to enter into a contract (that's what an ebay bid is) and THEN discuss the terms. I am guessing this is just a stunt to try to get some free press, but what a bad image to create for yourself. Just think of all of us looking at their web site and thinking "how lame..."
Question:
I found your ebay auction as an interesting way of promoting your firm. As an architecture student who plans to run a frim someday, i'm curious as to what you hope to achieve by doing this. What are your goals/gains, process, and are there any regrets after doing this?
Answer:
I appreciate your inquiry. Where do you go to school? One of the classes lacking in architectural schools is the business side of architecture. I have two years of accounting and business background to help me run the business. Architectural schools typically focus on architectural/engineering and etc. This is a good focus and five years are spent learning the basics. I never wanted to have my own business. It happened by default. It's a long story and not worth telling right now.
Ebay has been a good way to communicate with many people. You can usually find just about anything there. My business has been active for over fifteen years. I average 40 projects a year varying from garages and porches and sun room additions to 100,000 square foot industrial buildings, condo projects and car dealerships. My practice is veryied and interesting. My usual marketing plans are successful projects and great clients. For the last five years I have had a strong word of mouth advertising. This year I thought I would try the eBay market and see what happens. The service is for a year of architecture and would be renewable should the relationship be good. It is an attempt to raise money outside the normal course of business. There can be no regrets because nothing has happened and the cost is small in relationship to mainstream marketing.
i would offer mr. gleason the kind words of advise.
1.clearly by upon the work shown on his web site, he skipped over too many classes that 'focued on architecture or engineering'. i know contractors who can do better jobs and hell, why bother with the boring bits while in school.
2. business? accounting? must be one of those degreess they used to offer on the back of match packets next to refigerator repair guy. how can you offer fee without any discussion of scoop of work. again, you must have skipped class that day when they went over it.
3. i hear the donald is floating around the world looking for someone to do the chicago trump cd's cheaper than skids[outsourcing to india or canada, perhaps 'your fired' to skids,,. i forwarded an email to him as i believe contracturally you would need to staff it to what ever level needed to sufficently meet the licensing duties of the profession.
after fifteen years if this is the best you can offer, i suggest giving it up. hummmm, 40 projects / year....one prinicpal, thats averages 52 hours per project. hey please allow a full 2 weeks for the donald.
This is a big problem, in principle and quite possibly, practice.
This "auction" is the epitome of an accident waiting to happen and glorifies so much of what is wrong with architectural practice, or should I say malpractice, in this capitalistic wasteland of america.
Think about it. If I was a developer, interested in wherever usa, I sure as hell would bid on this neckbone offer with the intent of working them like dogs. Not 1 or 4 projects in a year. That would be far too noble. We would desecrate the suburbscape with 100's of misinformed stylistic boxes and give them each a stately name like 'The Jibbajabba' and 'The Mix-n-Match'.
It happens every day and is going on around each and every one of us as I type. Until these jokers are hunted down and drug through the streets of Genericville there is no hope.
Ebay Auction: Architectural Services for a year
A firm is auctioning a year of architectural services on Ebay for a minimum bid of $25,000.
It might be worth 25k just to keep these guys from designing at all.
I think if I was going to try this Ebay approach to marketing I'd probably auction some small number of hours worth of architectural services rather than commit to a year without knowing the client or their architectural needs. It's hard to say who might shop for architects on Ebay, but the advertising exposure MIGHT be worth some number of hours of work - but I don't think I'd want to commit my firm to a year!
Very funny, glad im not in that firm.
for a young, energetic firm, they have a terrible site. and with almost no portfolio, how could anyone - even the worst of developers - actually want to hire these people for a year, putting down 10 percent down with nothing to show for it. while the idea of auctioning off architectural services on ebay is unusual, it might just be an interesting marketing device. ive never seen it done before, that's for sure. however,it doesn't seem that these guys have the portfolio for anyone to chance a year long commitment.
25 000 seems like too high a price for someone to pay for a years worth of design services when the architect has provided no example of design ability. and 25 000 seem like too low a price for a firm to commit to any nutjob with 25k. could the grief on either side be worth it?
0 Bids
What a nut. To hire an intern for a year costs twice $25,000 once you include taxes etc. So they not only are bad designers, they are bad businessmen. This is NOT the kind of advertising you want to grow a firm.
My suspicion is that this is a one or two person firm and that they're currently "underutilized" - i.e. they could use a few more clients to fill up all of their own potentially billable hours - not that they're considering hiring an intern to do this particular project. Most likely they're thinking that this 25k would cover a certain portion of their own potential billable time over the course of the year, though certainly not all of it.
I've seen a few Ebay auctions for architectural consultations before - for some small number of hours (4 to 15 hours) that were started in the range of $100 or so minimum bid. In addition to the auction itself serving as free advertising to anyone who views it, it's also likely that the posters felt they'd get additional paid hours out of those clients.
This firm's website doesn't even include any firm profile/resume/experience/introduction of the principals - so if their tactic is to place this auction as advertising, not thinking that anyone will actually bid on it, it still seems there's not much info on them on which to base a decision to call them...
whatta bunch of freaks..
Ormolu, I am sure you are right, that they are trying to fill out their own hours, which is even more sad- they are willing to work at less than an intern rate. How could a client trust their judgement when they didn't even think to define what a year's worth of architectural consulting means? All the work the client can give them in a year? All the work they do on their lunch hours in a year? What one person normally works in a year? Their construction drawings are probably loaded with phrases like "as necessary" and "contractor is responsible for meeting all codes". I could absolutely see someone selling off 20 hours of time in hopes that it leads to a larger job, but this just seems so short sighted and ill-conceived.
*shudder*
Im emailing them right now to ask why they are doing this
tman: I completely agree about the risks of the unknown client, etc.
But I think in your analysis of the hourly rates you're jumping to conclusions. Let's say that the principal's hourly billing rate is $80 (typical for small residential firm in New England.) If he bills an average of 6 hours per week for 50 weeks of the year he'd be at 25k.
Now of course he probably isn't working 6 hours every week on this project - it's probably more like 40 hours some weeks and 0 hours others. But so long as he has 4 or 5 similar clients in the year (or 12 smaller clients, or 3 bigger clients...) then he does pretty well (we have to assume he can only be about 85% billable at most.) We'd have to assume that how many hours he puts in and in what capacity would be negotiated with the client before or after the auction ends.
i think you mean Ormolu not me
sorry, I meant archie
I see your logic Aluminate, but my point is how stupid are they not to define what a year's worth of services means? What if someone hires them and says, ok for the next year, you are working on my $10,000,000 strip center mall project. Easily doable in a year, but what a dumb fee. Even assuming someone hires them to do a custom house that is going to be built for $450,000, that's still a low fee, and lots of risk. Kind of dumb to enter into a contract (that's what an ebay bid is) and THEN discuss the terms. I am guessing this is just a stunt to try to get some free press, but what a bad image to create for yourself. Just think of all of us looking at their web site and thinking "how lame..."
Okay I emailed them and I got a response today.
Question:
I found your ebay auction as an interesting way of promoting your firm. As an architecture student who plans to run a frim someday, i'm curious as to what you hope to achieve by doing this. What are your goals/gains, process, and are there any regrets after doing this?
Answer:
I appreciate your inquiry. Where do you go to school? One of the classes lacking in architectural schools is the business side of architecture. I have two years of accounting and business background to help me run the business. Architectural schools typically focus on architectural/engineering and etc. This is a good focus and five years are spent learning the basics. I never wanted to have my own business. It happened by default. It's a long story and not worth telling right now.
Ebay has been a good way to communicate with many people. You can usually find just about anything there. My business has been active for over fifteen years. I average 40 projects a year varying from garages and porches and sun room additions to 100,000 square foot industrial buildings, condo projects and car dealerships. My practice is veryied and interesting. My usual marketing plans are successful projects and great clients. For the last five years I have had a strong word of mouth advertising. This year I thought I would try the eBay market and see what happens. The service is for a year of architecture and would be renewable should the relationship be good. It is an attempt to raise money outside the normal course of business. There can be no regrets because nothing has happened and the cost is small in relationship to mainstream marketing.
i would offer mr. gleason the kind words of advise.
1.clearly by upon the work shown on his web site, he skipped over too many classes that 'focued on architecture or engineering'. i know contractors who can do better jobs and hell, why bother with the boring bits while in school.
2. business? accounting? must be one of those degreess they used to offer on the back of match packets next to refigerator repair guy. how can you offer fee without any discussion of scoop of work. again, you must have skipped class that day when they went over it.
3. i hear the donald is floating around the world looking for someone to do the chicago trump cd's cheaper than skids[outsourcing to india or canada, perhaps 'your fired' to skids,,. i forwarded an email to him as i believe contracturally you would need to staff it to what ever level needed to sufficently meet the licensing duties of the profession.
after fifteen years if this is the best you can offer, i suggest giving it up. hummmm, 40 projects / year....one prinicpal, thats averages 52 hours per project. hey please allow a full 2 weeks for the donald.
This is a big problem, in principle and quite possibly, practice.
This "auction" is the epitome of an accident waiting to happen and glorifies so much of what is wrong with architectural practice, or should I say malpractice, in this capitalistic wasteland of america.
Think about it. If I was a developer, interested in wherever usa, I sure as hell would bid on this neckbone offer with the intent of working them like dogs. Not 1 or 4 projects in a year. That would be far too noble. We would desecrate the suburbscape with 100's of misinformed stylistic boxes and give them each a stately name like 'The Jibbajabba' and 'The Mix-n-Match'.
It happens every day and is going on around each and every one of us as I type. Until these jokers are hunted down and drug through the streets of Genericville there is no hope.
horus, drugging architects through the streets of Genericville sounds like a wierd acid trip, dude..
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