I am trying to catch up on what this means... it is horrible...can anyone help with a low down of why she was exiled and thence why she was killed...sorry i am not always so savvy on current events
She was the first woman to be elected the head of a Muslim state (Pakistan) and leader of PPP (Pakistan People's Party). Her father was the former president of Pakistan. She was in self-imposed exile because of her safety and to focus on her family. If I am not mistaken, she exiled in Dubai.
Do a Wiki search on her. I am sure you'll read plenty more information on the life of an influential and controversial leader. No doubt, she was quite a fascinating woman.
Benazir Bhutto was the eldest daughter of Zalfikar Bhutto, founder of Pakistans Peoples Party and Pakistans most popular former leader, who was executed after a coup in the 70's. She held the office of Prime Minister twice herself, but was forced out in 96 over charges of corruption, charges that appear to have some basis but that she has denied. In either event, during her time in exile and since her return earlier this year shes been the most passionate and potent voice for real democracy in Pakistan, calling for Musharraf to step down from his dictatorial post and hold elections. She was really Pakistans greatest hope for a free and better future, and her loss is a tremendous blow to the democratic voice there.
Its hard to say how bad things will get there, but Musharraf will probably reinstate the emergency powers and delay elections even further, which will only make him more hated among ordinary Pakistanis and make things worse.
musharaff's lifting of the emergency rule seems like an obvious cover-up in hindsight. actually, it looked like a preamble to disaster to me when he lifted it in the first place.
he's trying to take himself out of this as a suspect but i think he's clearly implicated at least by proxy.
of course emergency rule will be reinstated, elections will be canceled, and al qaeda among others will get the bombs they've been after.
end times indeed.
i've been worried about pakistan for months now, and unfortunately all of my fears have been coming true thus far.
on a more positive note, great opportunity exists amidst a sea of calamity. a sea-change in the dominant paradigm is completely possible over there.
even the formidable pakistani army couldn't hold down a massive, united uprising of the people in response to this horrible (but ultimately expected) turn of events.
Unbelievable but yet so predictable. It takes a lot of courage for someone in such a position of danger to put herself out there and stand up for her country. RIP.
Pakistan gets more and more volatile by the day. Let's hope it doesn't blow up in our faces.....
who cares as long they blow up each other over there and not over here I really could give a shit, its really a nice day were I live today so dont spoil it
sad day for democracy? scuse me while i try and hold back the vomit in my mouth. let's be real here, her assasination a tragedy - for her and her family, but i doubt anything real would have changed if she had lived and became leader for a third time. pak and india are poised for WWtre. if not israel and iran, pak and india. choise your poison...
I think its more ignorant to support an international criminal whos been accused of looting her own impoverished people for the better part of the last 20 years. But thats just me OE. Keep eating the hype. This bitch came in and destablized a fragile situation, she basicly reaped what she sewed, tempted fate. I know its sad, but again, thats why i love living here, and they live over there, where political bombings and religious fanatisicm is a sport. She stole enough billions to get a nice pad in London and Geneva but decided to go to the heart of the hornet nest and got stung.
Ya Vado nice try but see we seem to be able to run a country just fine without impact from these evil clowns. Your example while funny is quite a simple stretch Do you have a job dude?
ahh...the return of clamfan is a joyous day indeed,
where ya' been dude? there's been a real dearth of intelligent opining around here, and a surfeit of poor spelling as well. i for one am glad you're back!
Accused and exonerated. As far as I know all investigations into the corruption charges have backed Bhutto's claim that the charges were politically motivated and based on fabricated evidence.
Its obvious you guys have such a superficial understanding of whats going on over there. The centerpiece of her platform was normalizing relations with India, thereby freeing the military's stranglehold on government and on pakistans economy. You think people like living in that shit? You think Bhutto had any illusions about what danger she was putting herself in to stand up to Musharraf and the militants? This isnt a fucking sport. This is life and death for millions of people over there.
Im just dumbfounded by Americans sometimes. You have just have no concept of what real political courage is.
beta - interesting that you brought up Iran, Israel, Pakistan and India. They are all former British colonies, if my memory serves me, right? So do you think Churchill, the Zionists and all the others who could have ever foreseen that their quest to establish these clans, tribes, etc.... into organized "countries" would fail so badly? I do tend to believe their egos and their Darwinian beliefs just fueled the movement and ultimately they could have cared less about the consequences. Sad and utterly infuriating.
like tuna said, its all blowback as more of the same sad post-colonial legacy. you can blame the british for destabilizing and exploiting the region. (not that the previous raj's and war lords were saint's but at least they kept it local).
corruption is as corruption does - not like musharaff lives a pious and humble life or rises above any of the mud he was slinging.
db - In the United States, a tense looking President Bush condemned the attack "by murderous extremists who are trying to undermine Pakistan's democracy." White House spokesman Scott Stanzel said Bush spoke briefly by phone with Musharraf.
You have just have no concept of what real political courage is.
you're kidding right? again the vomit nearly spit out my mouth. real courage would have been for india to stay whole, for muslims, and hindus and everyone else in india to TRY and get along. instead the country fractured, gandhi murdered, and pak and india fighting over some shitty land ready to nuke the shit out of each other. we yanks may have had our fair share of shit to deal with - 600,000 lives lost in 4 years, untold more unaccounted - but we managed to stay united and not fracture into several different and warring clans/countries. tell me, which took more courage?
pak is 60 years young, they'll get it right some day, come hellor high nukes, err, i mean noon.
beta - you forgot that the confederates and union troops killed about 1million americans before we got to this point. (sherman would have used nukes if he had them - instead he just burned atlanta). Not sure if it took courage for the south to stay in the union at the point of the gun wielded by the industrial north.
i was thinking my point was a bit off, so i just want to clarify; lincoln wanted to avoid war and the loss of life, but in the end to keep the union together he had no choice. point being unity and justice won out, the country avoided being separated and people were freed.
could benazir bhutto 'the daughter of destiny' have brought back democracy to pakistan? i doubt so. in my opinion democracy had taken a back seat in pakistani politics in recent years.
the subversion of her government by the 'military' was unjust and a negation of democracy in the first place. and recently, the grant of amnesty to her and to have regarded it as the stepping stone in forming a civil government was ironic. the whole problem in pakistan today could have been because of the inability of musharraf's regime to handle the threat coming from the extremists side. the taliban, al qaeda and all other extremists wanted her dead.
bhutto's tragic death is inclined to a complete loss of faith in pakistan, especially among the younger generation.
"pak and india are poised for WWtre. if not israel and iran, pak and india. choise your poison..."
"real courage would have been for india to stay whole, for muslims, and hindus and everyone else in india to TRY and get along. instead the country fractured, gandhi murdered, and pak and india fighting over some shitty land ready to nuke the shit out of each other."
beta- if you have nothing to say about the topic, keep your ignorant ass shut or get your ass whipped. whichever takes more courage.
To add to TK's earlier statement. There was huge dissension amongst the southern vs northern states, from the very inception of this country. I'd argue it all started with the Articles of the Confederation. In other words, the U.S.'s "conflict" took far more then 4 years to alleviate. Shit, how long did the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland to finally come to the table? 500 years? Anyway, sorry to hijack the thread.
It seems as though the only reason why India and Pakistan were at one point ONE country was b/c of British Imperialism. Hypothetical borders were drawn and they got mashed in together. Although I commend Gandhi for his attempts, I don't think a unified Pakistan and India could have ever been successful... and I'm a person who truly believes in the power of diplomacy.
yesterday night i was in almaty(kazakhstan) intercontinental hotel..there was something going wrong, all the people at the lobby were looking at the plasma TV and they were all frozen, noone was moving..when i read the headline i was shocked..yes we knew and also Bhutto knew that she would be killed, but when you hear it, you react in a different way..it`s really horrible..she was one of the leaders that this world will never forget..sad for democracy and the games on Islam..i am sorry for the people living(they have to) there..
tunamelt, you are partly right. India and Pakistan were together just because of the british. At the same time, India+Pakistan+Bangladesh were a conglomerate of about 300 provinces. The British put them together for governance.
Not talking to tuna and beta both:
Now why did the partition of India ACTUALLY happen? Simple answer, the British facilitated it. The Muslim national congress was a british creation. Sure they did put the whole country together, but they made sure, in their own way that they left it fractured in more ways than one. Those are my thoughts.
Thanks sameolddoctor. Does anyone have any suggestions for books on this topic? Well written ones, that is. My years as a history major made me quite picky. You can't begin to imagine how dry and boring some of the literature can be.
hmm interesting question tuna, I will think of some books. My opinions are formed mostly from growing up in India though...but i will try to think of some 'unbiased' books.
sharpie. blow me. do me a favor email me directly and i'll give you my address and you can come whip my ass, it's been a while since i've had one, so i am due.
you know i remember when kennedy was assassinated, americans were killing each other in the streets...
"real courage would have been for india to stay whole, for muslims, and hindus and everyone else in india to TRY and get along. instead the country fractured, gandhi murdered, and pak and india fighting over some shitty land ready to nuke the shit out of each other."
[beta]v.4
...................Ladies and gentleman.... he has a Point... MY GOD, why did'nt any one think of this before....Beta... You muct be an Architect.
USA trained LTTE,as well as the Taliban, and now that things have gone sour, we have people who boast of summer and breezy evenings.... Sweet dreams my friend, unfortunately Others are facing the consiquences.
And its not India and Pakistans ww 3, its the world against terrorism. Read the papers man. Usa is neck deep in it.
"real courage would have been for india to stay whole, for muslims, and hindus and everyone else in india to TRY and get along. instead the country fractured, gandhi murdered, and pak and india fighting over some shitty land ready to nuke the shit out of each other."
[beta]v.4
...................Ladies and gentleman.... he has a Point... MY GOD, why did'nt any one think of this before....Beta... You muct be an Architect.
USA trained LTTE,as well as the Taliban, and now that things have gone sour, we have people who boast of summer and breezy evenings.... Sweet dreams my friend, unfortunately Others are facing the consiquences.
And its not India and Pakistans ww 3, its the world against terrorism. Read the papers man. Usa is neck deep in it.
The USA did train Taliban but I think the comparison is flawed because the Taliban have evolved into something much different than how they started. Would Abe Lincoln recognize the Republican party of today? Noway. Political parties rapidly mutate.
As for Musharraf, its too early to blame him. I see a few posts name him responsible. Thats just bad.
Someone also called Americans ignorant. While it does look that way sometimes, its one the country's biggest assets in my opinion. America gets blamed for not helping enough in sticky third world Post-Euro colonial areas then when we do we get blasted for being either reckless, ignorant or shallow and ineffective. So America has just learned to ignore everyone else and do our thing. America is uniquely deifferent than any nation on Earth. Its a nation not bound to culture defined by genetics, religion and race like in Pakistan. Because of that we are the hope for the future. Like us or hate us, they all want our Blue Jeans.
This whole situation sucks. I think it's especially sad since she was the first elected female Muslim leader. I'm trying to figure out what Al Qaeda or Musharraf would stand to gain from her assassination and I can't understand. This event has done nothing but inflame the political party that she led, the largest in Pakistan. Could it be something as simple as bin Laden wanting her dead because she was a female Muslim in a position of power? It honestly just seems like another senseless terrorist act, where extremists are trying to destabilize an already fragile country. Maybe so they can take it over like they took over Afghanistan.
OK, I think I just talked it out for myself. I definitely think it's Al Qaeda's fault and they are going to try to blame Musharraf to turn the country against him, and therefore, the US. Makes sense.
war on terrorism? ha, that's a good one. please define. terrorists, maybe. perhaps this inability to define is why we've spent close to a trillion dollars and haven't made the world any safer. clowns.
i wonder what bush would have done to those who participated in the boston tea party.
Islamic militants opposed to a pro-Western, secular, female leader are prime suspects in the killing, but Bhutto had other powerful enemies, including elements within Pakistan's security apparatus, reports USA Today.
source: http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1228/p99s01-duts.html
"Born in 1953, Benazir Bhutto was reared in Pakistani politics and became the country’s and the Muslim world’s first female prime minister. Twice elected to and twice expelled from that office, she spent much of her later life in exile. Her return to Pakistan in 2007 was marked by violence from the start and ended with her assassination."
The NY Times never actually says if she was Muslim, just that she was the Muslim world's first female prime minister. Which is good enough for me.
Holz the "terrorists" are opposed to pro-Western ideals and secularism. I think the main problem is it's hard to pin these groups down, much like it was in Vietnam. They are embedded within the population. If you think about it, this is a new type of warfare we are dealing with. Pre 20th century, enemy lines were very much defined. You knew who the enemy was, you knew who were fighting against. You and the enemy were literally standing face to face. Warfare began evolving beginning with WWI but I believe, Vietnam changed everything forever with the invention of guerrilla warfare. There really isn't anymore face to face combat. In addition to these guerrilla tactics, the Internet has opened up a lot more resources to the combatants that weren't even there a decade ago. The rest of us are always a step behind.
mightylittle - thanks for the suggestion... I'll definitely look into it. Anyone else?
Osama Bin Laden, the Terrorist, is Safe in Pakistan, Benazir Bhutto, the Democrat, was Not; Truly, Musharraf is Bush-Cheney's "Strong Ally" in the War IN, OF, BY & FOR Terror
By Richard Power
Osama Bin Laden is safe in Pakistan.
Benazir Bhutto was not.
Osama Bin Laden is alive and free in Pakistan.
Daniel Pearl is not.
Neither Iran nor Iraq have nuclear weapons.
But Pakistan does.
This is the poisoned fruit of Beltwayistan's decades of geopolitical folly in the Moslem world, and of the neo-con wet dreams and foolish military adventures of the last seven years in particular
I followed the story of Benazir Bhutto for many years.
She did not end up in exile because of corruption.
There is no head of state in the world, anywhere in the world, who could not be successfully stained with the broad brush of corruption.
Indeed, you cannot achieve power without exposing yourself to that charge.
In one way, she was the Don Siegelman of Pakistan; now, in another way, she has become the Robert F. Kennedy of Pakistan, we must pray she does not become the Archduke Ferdinand of the region.
She ended up in exile because she was too secular for the religious extremists and their backers in Saudi Arabia, and she was too democratic for the militarists and their backers in Beltwayistan.
She was also the first woman to rule in the modern Moslem world, and tragically, probably the last for some time.
When she returned to Pakistan a few weeks ago, I kept asking myself, "Why?"
She certainly knew she would most likely be killed.
I knew she would most likely be killed.
This morning, as I heard the news of her assassination, the answer struck me, and it came with a bitter twist of irony.
Every time you ask yourself why US political leaders will not stand up to the Bush-Cheney regime, why impeachment is off the table, why the betrayal of US secret agent Valerie Plame's covert identity goes unavenged, why those who looked the other way while 9/11 went down, then lied us into war with Iraq (and attempted to lie us into war with Iran) continue to occupy positions of power and privilege, why violations of FISA, FOIA, the Geneva Accords, the Bill of Rights, etc., have gone on unchecked, why no one is under criminal investigation for obstruction of justice in the firing of the US attorneys or the theft of elections in 2000, 2002 and 2004; remember the beautiful face, passionate heart and eloquent tongue of Benazir Bhutto, remember too Yitzhak Rabin, and Jack and Bobby Kennedy, and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and Omar Torrijos, and Anwar Sadat, and the answer will come to you.
Benazir Bhutto
Just horrible, I dont even know what to say.
I am trying to catch up on what this means... it is horrible...can anyone help with a low down of why she was exiled and thence why she was killed...sorry i am not always so savvy on current events
Im not really sure but Im sure Bush will be woven into this somewhere in the first 10 threads
other than perez, he's the one that benefits most. grab your tinhats!
does this surprise anyone?
Short and quick for ff33
She was the first woman to be elected the head of a Muslim state (Pakistan) and leader of PPP (Pakistan People's Party). Her father was the former president of Pakistan. She was in self-imposed exile because of her safety and to focus on her family. If I am not mistaken, she exiled in Dubai.
Do a Wiki search on her. I am sure you'll read plenty more information on the life of an influential and controversial leader. No doubt, she was quite a fascinating woman.
Benazir Bhutto was the eldest daughter of Zalfikar Bhutto, founder of Pakistans Peoples Party and Pakistans most popular former leader, who was executed after a coup in the 70's. She held the office of Prime Minister twice herself, but was forced out in 96 over charges of corruption, charges that appear to have some basis but that she has denied. In either event, during her time in exile and since her return earlier this year shes been the most passionate and potent voice for real democracy in Pakistan, calling for Musharraf to step down from his dictatorial post and hold elections. She was really Pakistans greatest hope for a free and better future, and her loss is a tremendous blow to the democratic voice there.
Its hard to say how bad things will get there, but Musharraf will probably reinstate the emergency powers and delay elections even further, which will only make him more hated among ordinary Pakistanis and make things worse.
Such a terribly sad and frightening day.
musharaff's lifting of the emergency rule seems like an obvious cover-up in hindsight. actually, it looked like a preamble to disaster to me when he lifted it in the first place.
he's trying to take himself out of this as a suspect but i think he's clearly implicated at least by proxy.
of course emergency rule will be reinstated, elections will be canceled, and al qaeda among others will get the bombs they've been after.
end times indeed.
i've been worried about pakistan for months now, and unfortunately all of my fears have been coming true thus far.
on a more positive note, great opportunity exists amidst a sea of calamity. a sea-change in the dominant paradigm is completely possible over there.
even the formidable pakistani army couldn't hold down a massive, united uprising of the people in response to this horrible (but ultimately expected) turn of events.
Yes..
Rest in Peace.
It will be interesting to see whether or not Musharraf declares another state of emergency..
The future is tenuous.
a sad day for democracy...
shocking,.... yet..... expected.
Unbelievable but yet so predictable. It takes a lot of courage for someone in such a position of danger to put herself out there and stand up for her country. RIP.
Pakistan gets more and more volatile by the day. Let's hope it doesn't blow up in our faces.....
This news makes my heart hurt. Yet another blow to the already fragile status in the region.
maybe its payback for her people blowin up zia back in the day...
who cares as long they blow up each other over there and not over here I really could give a shit, its really a nice day were I live today so dont spoil it
i agree clamfan, let those groups cancel each other out...
yeah, it's a nice day today here also...breezy, sunny with some stratus clouds above...
Yknow if youre ignorant on a subject dont pretend you have a meaningful opinion on it.
sad day for democracy? scuse me while i try and hold back the vomit in my mouth. let's be real here, her assasination a tragedy - for her and her family, but i doubt anything real would have changed if she had lived and became leader for a third time. pak and india are poised for WWtre. if not israel and iran, pak and india. choise your poison...
I think its more ignorant to support an international criminal whos been accused of looting her own impoverished people for the better part of the last 20 years. But thats just me OE. Keep eating the hype. This bitch came in and destablized a fragile situation, she basicly reaped what she sewed, tempted fate. I know its sad, but again, thats why i love living here, and they live over there, where political bombings and religious fanatisicm is a sport. She stole enough billions to get a nice pad in London and Geneva but decided to go to the heart of the hornet nest and got stung.
political bombings? religious fanaticism??? lemme ask my supermax cell mate eric rudolph what he thinks about it...
Ya Vado nice try but see we seem to be able to run a country just fine without impact from these evil clowns. Your example while funny is quite a simple stretch Do you have a job dude?
ahh...the return of clamfan is a joyous day indeed,
where ya' been dude? there's been a real dearth of intelligent opining around here, and a surfeit of poor spelling as well. i for one am glad you're back!
Accused and exonerated. As far as I know all investigations into the corruption charges have backed Bhutto's claim that the charges were politically motivated and based on fabricated evidence.
Its obvious you guys have such a superficial understanding of whats going on over there. The centerpiece of her platform was normalizing relations with India, thereby freeing the military's stranglehold on government and on pakistans economy. You think people like living in that shit? You think Bhutto had any illusions about what danger she was putting herself in to stand up to Musharraf and the militants? This isnt a fucking sport. This is life and death for millions of people over there.
Im just dumbfounded by Americans sometimes. You have just have no concept of what real political courage is.
dude, i have a career.
beta - interesting that you brought up Iran, Israel, Pakistan and India. They are all former British colonies, if my memory serves me, right? So do you think Churchill, the Zionists and all the others who could have ever foreseen that their quest to establish these clans, tribes, etc.... into organized "countries" would fail so badly? I do tend to believe their egos and their Darwinian beliefs just fueled the movement and ultimately they could have cared less about the consequences. Sad and utterly infuriating.
no Bush statement yet -- ?!?
guess he's busy or somethin'
he he
like tuna said, its all blowback as more of the same sad post-colonial legacy. you can blame the british for destabilizing and exploiting the region. (not that the previous raj's and war lords were saint's but at least they kept it local).
corruption is as corruption does - not like musharaff lives a pious and humble life or rises above any of the mud he was slinging.
db - In the United States, a tense looking President Bush condemned the attack "by murderous extremists who are trying to undermine Pakistan's democracy." White House spokesman Scott Stanzel said Bush spoke briefly by phone with Musharraf.
You have just have no concept of what real political courage is.
you're kidding right? again the vomit nearly spit out my mouth. real courage would have been for india to stay whole, for muslims, and hindus and everyone else in india to TRY and get along. instead the country fractured, gandhi murdered, and pak and india fighting over some shitty land ready to nuke the shit out of each other. we yanks may have had our fair share of shit to deal with - 600,000 lives lost in 4 years, untold more unaccounted - but we managed to stay united and not fracture into several different and warring clans/countries. tell me, which took more courage?
pak is 60 years young, they'll get it right some day, come hellor high nukes, err, i mean noon.
beta - you forgot that the confederates and union troops killed about 1million americans before we got to this point. (sherman would have used nukes if he had them - instead he just burned atlanta). Not sure if it took courage for the south to stay in the union at the point of the gun wielded by the industrial north.
i was thinking my point was a bit off, so i just want to clarify; lincoln wanted to avoid war and the loss of life, but in the end to keep the union together he had no choice. point being unity and justice won out, the country avoided being separated and people were freed.
Nice,
Hijacked thread....
could benazir bhutto 'the daughter of destiny' have brought back democracy to pakistan? i doubt so. in my opinion democracy had taken a back seat in pakistani politics in recent years.
the subversion of her government by the 'military' was unjust and a negation of democracy in the first place. and recently, the grant of amnesty to her and to have regarded it as the stepping stone in forming a civil government was ironic. the whole problem in pakistan today could have been because of the inability of musharraf's regime to handle the threat coming from the extremists side. the taliban, al qaeda and all other extremists wanted her dead.
bhutto's tragic death is inclined to a complete loss of faith in pakistan, especially among the younger generation.
a sad day for that country. condolences.
"pak and india are poised for WWtre. if not israel and iran, pak and india. choise your poison..."
"real courage would have been for india to stay whole, for muslims, and hindus and everyone else in india to TRY and get along. instead the country fractured, gandhi murdered, and pak and india fighting over some shitty land ready to nuke the shit out of each other."
beta- if you have nothing to say about the topic, keep your ignorant ass shut or get your ass whipped. whichever takes more courage.
To add to TK's earlier statement. There was huge dissension amongst the southern vs northern states, from the very inception of this country. I'd argue it all started with the Articles of the Confederation. In other words, the U.S.'s "conflict" took far more then 4 years to alleviate. Shit, how long did the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland to finally come to the table? 500 years? Anyway, sorry to hijack the thread.
It seems as though the only reason why India and Pakistan were at one point ONE country was b/c of British Imperialism. Hypothetical borders were drawn and they got mashed in together. Although I commend Gandhi for his attempts, I don't think a unified Pakistan and India could have ever been successful... and I'm a person who truly believes in the power of diplomacy.
i'm not even touching this one.
My heart goes out to Pakistan tho.
yesterday night i was in almaty(kazakhstan) intercontinental hotel..there was something going wrong, all the people at the lobby were looking at the plasma TV and they were all frozen, noone was moving..when i read the headline i was shocked..yes we knew and also Bhutto knew that she would be killed, but when you hear it, you react in a different way..it`s really horrible..she was one of the leaders that this world will never forget..sad for democracy and the games on Islam..i am sorry for the people living(they have to) there..
tunamelt, you are partly right. India and Pakistan were together just because of the british. At the same time, India+Pakistan+Bangladesh were a conglomerate of about 300 provinces. The British put them together for governance.
Not talking to tuna and beta both:
Now why did the partition of India ACTUALLY happen? Simple answer, the British facilitated it. The Muslim national congress was a british creation. Sure they did put the whole country together, but they made sure, in their own way that they left it fractured in more ways than one. Those are my thoughts.
and yes RIP Bhutto. You were truly a great leader and the world is sorry for your loss.
Thanks sameolddoctor. Does anyone have any suggestions for books on this topic? Well written ones, that is. My years as a history major made me quite picky. You can't begin to imagine how dry and boring some of the literature can be.
hmm interesting question tuna, I will think of some books. My opinions are formed mostly from growing up in India though...but i will try to think of some 'unbiased' books.
sharpie. blow me. do me a favor email me directly and i'll give you my address and you can come whip my ass, it's been a while since i've had one, so i am due.
you know i remember when kennedy was assassinated, americans were killing each other in the streets...
"real courage would have been for india to stay whole, for muslims, and hindus and everyone else in india to TRY and get along. instead the country fractured, gandhi murdered, and pak and india fighting over some shitty land ready to nuke the shit out of each other."
[beta]v.4
...................Ladies and gentleman.... he has a Point... MY GOD, why did'nt any one think of this before....Beta... You muct be an Architect.
USA trained LTTE,as well as the Taliban, and now that things have gone sour, we have people who boast of summer and breezy evenings.... Sweet dreams my friend, unfortunately Others are facing the consiquences.
And its not India and Pakistans ww 3, its the world against terrorism. Read the papers man. Usa is neck deep in it.
"real courage would have been for india to stay whole, for muslims, and hindus and everyone else in india to TRY and get along. instead the country fractured, gandhi murdered, and pak and india fighting over some shitty land ready to nuke the shit out of each other."
[beta]v.4
...................Ladies and gentleman.... he has a Point... MY GOD, why did'nt any one think of this before....Beta... You muct be an Architect.
USA trained LTTE,as well as the Taliban, and now that things have gone sour, we have people who boast of summer and breezy evenings.... Sweet dreams my friend, unfortunately Others are facing the consiquences.
And its not India and Pakistans ww 3, its the world against terrorism. Read the papers man. Usa is neck deep in it.
The USA did train Taliban but I think the comparison is flawed because the Taliban have evolved into something much different than how they started. Would Abe Lincoln recognize the Republican party of today? Noway. Political parties rapidly mutate.
As for Musharraf, its too early to blame him. I see a few posts name him responsible. Thats just bad.
Someone also called Americans ignorant. While it does look that way sometimes, its one the country's biggest assets in my opinion. America gets blamed for not helping enough in sticky third world Post-Euro colonial areas then when we do we get blasted for being either reckless, ignorant or shallow and ineffective. So America has just learned to ignore everyone else and do our thing. America is uniquely deifferent than any nation on Earth. Its a nation not bound to culture defined by genetics, religion and race like in Pakistan. Because of that we are the hope for the future. Like us or hate us, they all want our Blue Jeans.
tuna - watch deepa mehta's film called Earth.
It's a fascinating (though dramatized) telling of the heart-wrenching process of partition between India and Pakistan.
This whole situation sucks. I think it's especially sad since she was the first elected female Muslim leader. I'm trying to figure out what Al Qaeda or Musharraf would stand to gain from her assassination and I can't understand. This event has done nothing but inflame the political party that she led, the largest in Pakistan. Could it be something as simple as bin Laden wanting her dead because she was a female Muslim in a position of power? It honestly just seems like another senseless terrorist act, where extremists are trying to destabilize an already fragile country. Maybe so they can take it over like they took over Afghanistan.
OK, I think I just talked it out for myself. I definitely think it's Al Qaeda's fault and they are going to try to blame Musharraf to turn the country against him, and therefore, the US. Makes sense.
Carry on then.
war on terrorism? ha, that's a good one. please define. terrorists, maybe. perhaps this inability to define is why we've spent close to a trillion dollars and haven't made the world any safer. clowns.
i wonder what bush would have done to those who participated in the boston tea party.
she was secular not Muslim from what i am reading
Islamic militants opposed to a pro-Western, secular, female leader are prime suspects in the killing, but Bhutto had other powerful enemies, including elements within Pakistan's security apparatus, reports USA Today.source: http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1228/p99s01-duts.html
"Born in 1953, Benazir Bhutto was reared in Pakistani politics and became the country’s and the Muslim world’s first female prime minister. Twice elected to and twice expelled from that office, she spent much of her later life in exile. Her return to Pakistan in 2007 was marked by violence from the start and ended with her assassination."
The NY Times never actually says if she was Muslim, just that she was the Muslim world's first female prime minister. Which is good enough for me.
This is informative, anyway:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2007/12/27/world/asia/20071227_BHUTTO_TIMELINE.html
Holz the "terrorists" are opposed to pro-Western ideals and secularism. I think the main problem is it's hard to pin these groups down, much like it was in Vietnam. They are embedded within the population. If you think about it, this is a new type of warfare we are dealing with. Pre 20th century, enemy lines were very much defined. You knew who the enemy was, you knew who were fighting against. You and the enemy were literally standing face to face. Warfare began evolving beginning with WWI but I believe, Vietnam changed everything forever with the invention of guerrilla warfare. There really isn't anymore face to face combat. In addition to these guerrilla tactics, the Internet has opened up a lot more resources to the combatants that weren't even there a decade ago. The rest of us are always a step behind.
mightylittle - thanks for the suggestion... I'll definitely look into it. Anyone else?
Osama Bin Laden, the Terrorist, is Safe in Pakistan, Benazir Bhutto, the Democrat, was Not; Truly, Musharraf is Bush-Cheney's "Strong Ally" in the War IN, OF, BY & FOR Terror
By Richard Power
Osama Bin Laden is safe in Pakistan.
Benazir Bhutto was not.
Osama Bin Laden is alive and free in Pakistan.
Daniel Pearl is not.
Neither Iran nor Iraq have nuclear weapons.
But Pakistan does.
This is the poisoned fruit of Beltwayistan's decades of geopolitical folly in the Moslem world, and of the neo-con wet dreams and foolish military adventures of the last seven years in particular
I followed the story of Benazir Bhutto for many years.
She did not end up in exile because of corruption.
There is no head of state in the world, anywhere in the world, who could not be successfully stained with the broad brush of corruption.
Indeed, you cannot achieve power without exposing yourself to that charge.
In one way, she was the Don Siegelman of Pakistan; now, in another way, she has become the Robert F. Kennedy of Pakistan, we must pray she does not become the Archduke Ferdinand of the region.
She ended up in exile because she was too secular for the religious extremists and their backers in Saudi Arabia, and she was too democratic for the militarists and their backers in Beltwayistan.
She was also the first woman to rule in the modern Moslem world, and tragically, probably the last for some time.
When she returned to Pakistan a few weeks ago, I kept asking myself, "Why?"
She certainly knew she would most likely be killed.
I knew she would most likely be killed.
This morning, as I heard the news of her assassination, the answer struck me, and it came with a bitter twist of irony.
Every time you ask yourself why US political leaders will not stand up to the Bush-Cheney regime, why impeachment is off the table, why the betrayal of US secret agent Valerie Plame's covert identity goes unavenged, why those who looked the other way while 9/11 went down, then lied us into war with Iraq (and attempted to lie us into war with Iran) continue to occupy positions of power and privilege, why violations of FISA, FOIA, the Geneva Accords, the Bill of Rights, etc., have gone on unchecked, why no one is under criminal investigation for obstruction of justice in the firing of the US attorneys or the theft of elections in 2000, 2002 and 2004; remember the beautiful face, passionate heart and eloquent tongue of Benazir Bhutto, remember too Yitzhak Rabin, and Jack and Bobby Kennedy, and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and Omar Torrijos, and Anwar Sadat, and the answer will come to you.
They do not stand up because they are afraid.
She was not afraid.
or is he really alive?
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