i'm not the least bit bothered by the news of this death. i didn't know this woman, not even in the superficial/celebrity sense. probably the more destablized the world is then the better.
all of which just makes me that much happier to be a fan of miss paris hilton, a true beacon of all that is right with peace, prosperity, democracy and beauty. now if she were assassinated then that would be a sad day. in the meantime, let's continue to rejoice!
I have been very disturbed and saddened by the death of Mrs. Bhutto. It really came as no surprise however. Pakistan is one of those countries that has been so corrupt that it has completely sold out to the extremists and terrorists.
It's no wonder that they actually recognized and supported those Neanderthal Taliban. If I was a Pakistani leader I would completely put Waziristan and all the other Al Qaeda/Taliban enclaves under direct marshal law.
Are you sure she was a devout Muslim? She went to Roman Catholic school growing up and many journalists have stated she was more secular than anything else.
i'd have to agree with n_... although the only implication of having an education from a roman catholic school would be that her family had the funds to give her an elite education surpassing the under developed standards of most pakistani schools during the time she was growing up, and that she has a more westernized education.
but bhutto has always been known to be more secular, although not always making it obvious in order to win over the masses... the half worn head scarf, the standardized Islamic greetings and prayers beginning speeches become more of political elements that help win over a crowd than any announcement of personal beliefs.
and yeah... i think some people are totally missing/ignoring/assuming the complexity of the india/pakistan situation and the history behind it, already mentioned above...
perhaps it's cynicism thursday and friday with me, but it strikes me that no one ever saw my points as a cynical take on the situation. perhaps most, given their obvious emotional state or blindness, are unable to see clearly. clearly from all accounts mrs. bhutto was an effective leader, but does that make her the savior of pakistan? i would say the resounding answer would be no. how could she be? with the former head of the military as leader, with a military given to coup d'etat, how could she govern effectively? how could she govern without looking over her shoulder? george washington was not made president, and then fought the revolution. what will save pakistan and save the region is for the people of pakistan to save themselves, then and only then will pakistan be a beacon of freedom and democracy...if that is what they want.
antisthenes, just a quick question for you. if i were to say there is a way, a direction so to speak, and in that "way" there is a this way and a that way and some believe this and others believe that, would you say the way is wrong? point being, the principal that the US is based on could best be described in this fashion; right now some believe this and others believe that, but at the end of the day, we don't summarily execute or assassinate those that chose one over the other. we hold scheduled elections every 4 years, 2 years and 6 years to change the this and that...
Man theres a lot of bullshit in this thread. You really think the US is such a pluralist utopia? What weve never had riots and assassinations? What do you think Bhutto was trying to do? What do you think all those people in the streets are looking for?
Anywhere in the world people just want to run a business and feed their families without worrying about being dragged off in the middle of the night. People want some control over their destinies, to know their voices have some meaning. Anyone who's putting their life on the line for that deserves some respect.
oe, utopia? who said the US was a utopia? who ever said we have not had riots and assassinations? if people want some control over their destiny, then why don't the people do something about their destiny?
as has been said in other places, by people far more eloquent, the US with all its flaws, remains a unique place, created by a unique experiment that could never have happened any place else.
one question for you, does it not strike anyone that the US administration and the western powers wanted her in power? do you think she will not have been a passionate advocate for westen political ideals?
Benazir Bhuto was a secularist Muslim and she was a devout Muslim at that. I've heard her speaches many times, read a lot of her articles and there are a lot of her own religious overtones in terms of passages and examples from the Quran. There is such a thing as being a devout but secular Muslim but you won't hear about it in the American press.
In any case, why is these even an issue to some of you people? It's as if you don't want her to be a Muslim.
Pakistan's largest political party (PPP) has appointed Bilawal Bhutto Zardari, the 19-year-old son of its slain leader Benazir Bhutto, as its new chairman.
enlightening interview with bhutto's niece on ThisIsHell in which she says bhutto's government from 93-96 killed thousands of dissidents and may have included the interviewees father, benazir's brother. hmmmm...
Benazir Bhutto
i'm not the least bit bothered by the news of this death. i didn't know this woman, not even in the superficial/celebrity sense. probably the more destablized the world is then the better.
all of which just makes me that much happier to be a fan of miss paris hilton, a true beacon of all that is right with peace, prosperity, democracy and beauty. now if she were assassinated then that would be a sad day. in the meantime, let's continue to rejoice!
I love America
Benazir Bhutto was definately a Muslim -- a devout one at that.
I have been very disturbed and saddened by the death of Mrs. Bhutto. It really came as no surprise however. Pakistan is one of those countries that has been so corrupt that it has completely sold out to the extremists and terrorists.
It's no wonder that they actually recognized and supported those Neanderthal Taliban. If I was a Pakistani leader I would completely put Waziristan and all the other Al Qaeda/Taliban enclaves under direct marshal law.
love comes and love goes
blowback is in the wind
Now what does that mean and how does it have anything to do with anything?
Puddles, as always nothing you ever say makes any goddamn sense.
Are you sure she was a devout Muslim? She went to Roman Catholic school growing up and many journalists have stated she was more secular than anything else.
I would not be surprised if she was not as agnostic/atheist/Bright as Michelle Bachalet of Chile.
i'd have to agree with n_... although the only implication of having an education from a roman catholic school would be that her family had the funds to give her an elite education surpassing the under developed standards of most pakistani schools during the time she was growing up, and that she has a more westernized education.
but bhutto has always been known to be more secular, although not always making it obvious in order to win over the masses... the half worn head scarf, the standardized Islamic greetings and prayers beginning speeches become more of political elements that help win over a crowd than any announcement of personal beliefs.
and yeah... i think some people are totally missing/ignoring/assuming the complexity of the india/pakistan situation and the history behind it, already mentioned above...
perhaps it's cynicism thursday and friday with me, but it strikes me that no one ever saw my points as a cynical take on the situation. perhaps most, given their obvious emotional state or blindness, are unable to see clearly. clearly from all accounts mrs. bhutto was an effective leader, but does that make her the savior of pakistan? i would say the resounding answer would be no. how could she be? with the former head of the military as leader, with a military given to coup d'etat, how could she govern effectively? how could she govern without looking over her shoulder? george washington was not made president, and then fought the revolution. what will save pakistan and save the region is for the people of pakistan to save themselves, then and only then will pakistan be a beacon of freedom and democracy...if that is what they want.
beta is exactly correct...that's why they have dead saviours and we have paris hilton. world's going to hell...yeah right!
there is no hell we know and democracy and freedom according to whom? there are so many different takes on this stuff.
Good point beta... western culture always thinks that everyone wants democracy, when in fact, (obviously) some don't.
Oh and just b/c Bhutto was a secular leader doesn't mean she wasn't Muslim, or Catholic, or Buddhist, or Hindu, etc...
corporate ruled dog eat dog free market capitalism and polarized classes, waste = usa's version of democracy
How inteligent. Its the USA'a freedoms that allow us to tolerate people like you Antisthenes.
antisthenes, just a quick question for you. if i were to say there is a way, a direction so to speak, and in that "way" there is a this way and a that way and some believe this and others believe that, would you say the way is wrong? point being, the principal that the US is based on could best be described in this fashion; right now some believe this and others believe that, but at the end of the day, we don't summarily execute or assassinate those that chose one over the other. we hold scheduled elections every 4 years, 2 years and 6 years to change the this and that...
Man theres a lot of bullshit in this thread. You really think the US is such a pluralist utopia? What weve never had riots and assassinations? What do you think Bhutto was trying to do? What do you think all those people in the streets are looking for?
Anywhere in the world people just want to run a business and feed their families without worrying about being dragged off in the middle of the night. People want some control over their destinies, to know their voices have some meaning. Anyone who's putting their life on the line for that deserves some respect.
well said, oe.
oe, utopia? who said the US was a utopia? who ever said we have not had riots and assassinations? if people want some control over their destiny, then why don't the people do something about their destiny?
as has been said in other places, by people far more eloquent, the US with all its flaws, remains a unique place, created by a unique experiment that could never have happened any place else.
one question for you, does it not strike anyone that the US administration and the western powers wanted her in power? do you think she will not have been a passionate advocate for westen political ideals?
Benazir Bhuto was a secularist Muslim and she was a devout Muslim at that. I've heard her speaches many times, read a lot of her articles and there are a lot of her own religious overtones in terms of passages and examples from the Quran. There is such a thing as being a devout but secular Muslim but you won't hear about it in the American press.
In any case, why is these even an issue to some of you people? It's as if you don't want her to be a Muslim.
Oh and the Times is just as full of shit as most other media platforms.
it is like a fuckin' franchise...
pseudo monarchies...
aka families with money and power
who knows what her role was when the CIA and US gov created the Taliban in Afghanistan out of Pakistan? Was she as much of a pupet as Musharaf?
enlightening interview with bhutto's niece on ThisIsHell in which she says bhutto's government from 93-96 killed thousands of dissidents and may have included the interviewees father, benazir's brother. hmmmm...
fatima bhutto's Counterpunch article...
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