No, but I do find my life is easier when I don't bother meeting deadlines. Yes, I get stuff done shortly after, but I almost never meet a deadline anymore.

And I find life is far more pleasant when I'm nice to cashiers, clerks, etc.

Happy birthday (I'm 40 too).

i think the way the society see us or being portrait by the media as educated reasonable beings and sometimes is a disadvantages in terms of dealing with day to day asshole or even dating...

liberty> thanks, ur kind... actually i'm gonna be 41 this month.

metamechanic> thanks for the greeting also, i think i do get what i want, but sometimes i think if ppl do not see us being reasonable, i would have get it much easier...

Something in my life is slowly dawning on me. No one respects a nice guy.

I strongly disagree ... there's still an important place for politeness and professionalism in our work lives.

There's a huge difference between "service" and "servitude" ... much of our profession's PR problem arises from perpetual confusion of those two concepts.

Clients and contractors have a hard time respecting us because we're routinely unwilling to "sell" the appropriate professional approach ... either we just knuckle under and accept what they say, or we become argumentative and demanding. Too often, we're either patsies or prima donnas.

The simple fact is that most of us hate to "sell" and we often are not very good at it. We'd rather others simply genuflect and accept what we have to say simply because "I'm the architect" ... baby, that ship has sailed ... get over it!

Respect comes from handling yourself in professional manner ... from knowing what you're talking about ... from conveying an argument in a positive, persuasive and professional manner ... from standing up for the best decision and doing it in a way that others can accept.

Being an asshole may help you feel better in the short run. However, I'm pretty sure you'll realize rather quickly that all you're doing is shooting yourself in the foot.

"Being mean to people" is a lot like getting a tatoo ... relatively easy to do, but hard to erase later when you decide maybe that wasn't such a great idea after all.

quizzical comes through yet again with some good counter-points.

Perhaps it's more appropriate to be "tough, resilient, and assertive" rather than "mean." Think about it: it's easier to respect a professional with the first three characteristics.

And perhaps this discussion has regional implications, as well. To make a general observation: people in the midwest are generally nicer than those on the east coast. People in the midwest will go out of their way to help others, whereas east coasters are typically "in it for themselves."

my boss is a Mr. Nice guy architect...he gets screwed over by all his asshole clients....its time to do the screwing....

whats with not keeping deadlines? seems like a sure way to get fired or kicked from the job

sameolddoc

you mention not meeting deadlines....what about the asshole clients who dont pay their bills on time??? We Mr Nice Guy Architects will still do work for them

yea that makes sense....at least for the clients who dont pay up or keep up to their end of the deal.
that said, my boss gets screwed over so much by his clients, that im wondering if he really LIKES getting screwed.

i've been screwed a good amount of times when i was starting out..... so now i dont move a sharpie until i have a budget and a retainer in hand for any design build projects...... the little ones that i do atleast....... and for models...all info and half down...... then payment due at drop off/14days either/or......

i know how it feels to get jacked.....a big respectable firm jacked me for 8gs on a model... not cool at all..........

i've bent over backwards alot of times and at this point of my life, they have to pay in order to play......i've passed up a few jobs due to them trying to lowball me....screw that....


b

I don't understand the logic of being mean and not meeting deadlines. I think I'm a pretty nice guy, but I also don't let my clients screw me or walk all over me. Client relations are very similar with relations with your friends. You need to treat them well, show respect, and be there when they need you. Being mean and not showing up when they expect you will surely lose you friends and clients. This is just another "I hate clients and they don't understand my ideas" thread. Get over yourselves already. You can not run an architecture business without clients. Show them the respect that they deserve while still respecting yourself, your values, and beliefs. Trust me, it is possible to do both.

the ones that have the money and owe you will do what they can to get your product and not pay........

i've dont work for friends...but it was on a bartering thing.... what can they do for me and what do they need from me.....


even the nicest of clients will try to jack you down on price and hold out on payment...... because that dollar has power.......

b

I had this conversation yesterday with a fellow student while we were working on a group project.... Apparently some people think I'm a bit of an asshole. If only they knew how laid back I *think* I'm being.

I don't think I've ever been MEAN to anybody, but my groupmates figured out that if something's not up to my standards, they'll have to redo it. People know when they fuck up, I don't need to remind them.

If you want something done properly (or just done at all), you'll end up hurting somebody's feelings. The sooner you're okay with that, the sooner you'll get results. Whether you're a nice person or an asshole about it is besides the point.

I've seen the asshole technique applied in this business, to consultants, clients and employees. It's definitely a clear strategy that's used deliberately by many people in many situations.

I think it's effective in the short term, but it won't do anything for you in the long term, and it's not very fun, for either party involved.

It's much more fun, and much more difficult, to be nice to people.

remember folks, there's a big difference between being polite and being a doormat.

there's also a big difference between being firm and strong and being an asshole.

this is not a binary world ... you don't have to abuse other people in order to get the respect, and response, you want and deserve.

indeed quizzical.

As said, there is a difference between being an asshole and being firm. For those that think that to avoid being walked over, we need to be mean I would just say this: Being walked over suggests some kind of need from the architect to be hired. They need the custom so are willing to bend over backwards to keep the work. Being mean is not a viable antidote to this. You won't be able bully people into staying as your client.

What we need is firmness and to have this, we need colateral. We need to accept that we offer a valuable service and there is push and pull from both sides. Some clients like to remind us that they could go to another architect or a developer and have the same service for less. If this is something you can't argue against, you need to ask yourself why.

The role of the architect has been deminishing for centuries. Engineers/interior designers/quantity surveyors etc have specialised parts of the building process which are now no longer part of our workload. But what we do provide is ideas. To take Cedric Price as an example (who was hired to design an extention to a couple's home and - upon speaking to the couple as to the reasons for the extention - advised that what they needed was a divorce, not an extention), we are in essence professional idea makers. We fix problems and make complex situations an enjoyable experience. This is hugely important both at an individual and corporate level.

If your ideas are strong, there is nowhere else the client can go for an identical service. As soon as you can demonstrate this you have shown your value and are in a position to push back against any demands your client may make.

But whatever you do, don't be a dick just to make yourself feel better. It won't last long.

meta: the original post read: "at my 40th birthday, i finally figure out that life is alot easilier when i'm mean to people"

most repeat assholes i know are the ones stuck into something (the one track minds), or, the ones who don't know what they want.
it is a challenge to deal with either type and your best tool is to be fair, sharp, quick, use sense of humor if necessary.
between the client, architect, builder and others there is always the potential of having an asshole or two, in the process towards final product, the building.

what you have to do during the job is defined by the laws and regulations, they are pretty simple, direct, fair and respectful. i have read many portions of 'the architect's handbook of professional paractice', a really good book that should be your professional guide.

the stereotypes are really bad and they are there. i have seen architects who think contractors are assholes and i have seen c's saying the same for the a's with A capitol, even before anything starts.
miscommunication is a big problem. fighting with the project is a form of bad communication. instead of yelling and other nonsense you have to develop a relationship with everybody instead of communicating with resentment and disrespect.
i have things to talk about with people i work with and hired by. other things in life, like politics, pets, etc. you don't have to have it but i do.

just think of that you'll be remaining with your own conscience and development after the job, need references and recommendations, you need a team of people and associations that you trust and like. be nice...
and be quick to repel and isolate assholism when you see it. they are there, but don't let them take over your project.
and never forget i said, "an unstopped asshole will eventually make an asshole out of you."

if you call people when an unacceptable line is crossed, they usually get more sincere and open with you, that's good.

there are tell tail signs if a problem is going to arise, that is why one must be experienced enough to tackle them as they surface.
sometimes they or you must walk away but even then, without demaging the other or yourself professionally.
they are all in there as well, B-155 (agreement bet. owner and archi. for small projects)

also, there are humorous asshole situations.
plumbers, roofers, framers, electricians and other tradesmen can be assholes on certain days. they have a right to be... specially if they are good in their craft and you try to speak in a language they don't understand.
"sometimes your beautiful new design detail is a complete operational nightmare and simply bad business to others", maxim gorky would say. ;.)

it is much more challenging to remain un-asshole as a critic.

there is also this book i enjoyed reading long time ago.
http://www.antiqbook.com/boox/dah/Ix5.shtml

Nice post, oldenvirginia, re: ideas. And quizzical re: win-win situations.

I also need to clarify: when a real deadline comes up, like a submittal to the historic preservation board that only meets once a month, I'm strictly on it. But when someone calls Thursday night and says they "need" something Friday afternoon, I generally say "I'll see what I can do but I can't promise it".

And that said, I did frantically pull together a budget number for a client the day before Thanksgiving because she wanted to get the refrigerator at the Black Friday sale. Because I liek her and I don't mind - in fact, I enjoy -bending over backwards for people I like or in situations that merit it.

Orhan, I totally agree: being a helpful and non-assholic critic is very, very difficult, and very, very rewarding.

from my day to day experience-

mean ppl hand out instructions to normal ppl or lazy ppl, they get things done on time.


mr. nice guy hand out instruction to normal ppl or hardworking ppl, they never get things done period... cos they have to serve mean ppl as their priority.

i will never be anything but a mr-nice-guy, unfortunately. i just don't have tough in me. but, contrary to aspect's statement, i still manage to get things done and to get my team to perform!

something about having been raised 1/2 catholic: i've got this built-in guilt trigger. anything that SEEMS like it's my responsibility BECOMES my responsibility because i can't NOT do it. i can be made to feel horrible so that i try to fix something that might actually have very little to do with me.

I can't really make clear from the above comments who is giving advice from an owner / partner standpoint versus those who are advising from a project manager point of view. I don't mean to imply that one's values should change with job position -- in fact the opposite should be the goal.
I only raise this difference becasue I think non-owner project managers -- which includes me -- sometime tend to overblow their relative importance in the larger scheme. I guess my point is -- what do you REALLY have control over. Makes a difference in choosing what to get all bent about.

I work with people who I swear that I've met in my last visit to hell. I'm still nice to them. Life is too short.

If their lives are so miserable that they have to be mean to everyone for no reason, that's their problem and not mine.

I am sure that there are people on this board who are like this in the office and at school. One of these days you'll learn the hard way when absolutely no one cares about you or to be around you.

BTW, I agree with DCA and quizical.

what about architects though that are too nice? it seems my boss can never say no to a new business opportunity, thus we have way too much to do. not that this is bad per se, but i do feel as though i'd do better work if i wasn't running around like a chicken with a severed head.

not sure I would see someone as "too nice" if they never say "no" to a new business opportunity -- they're only being "too nice" if they're not getting a fair fee for the work and risk involved.

i can see that

or ... if they're agreeing to an unrealistic schedule ... or agreeing to an unrealistic budget.

as I read this thread, increasingly I keep coming back to the idea of "professionalism" ... in many ways, being a professional is about telling other people the truth and helping them understand what they need to understand ... not just telling them what they want to hear.

that message can be delivered in a polite, non-threatening manner. however, sometimes it's a lot easier just to yell!

well i was just getting at that, some people can become obsessed with pleasing others to the end that they become stretched thin and don't function optimally. i think my employer displays this trait occasionally.

I believe someone said it earlier, you can be a nice person without being a doormat and still get what you want.

To answer SandRoad's query, my comments come as an owner, but I also approached people with the same respect when I worked for others.

Humans create their own reality. You create the reality you deserve.

Some people spin a big, oily black web of darkness around them, and some create a warm haven of goodness and widening vision.

You choose.

Some people believe in cupcakes. Cupcakes are yummy.