So with the the new addition to the family, we are in need of a new car... they go hand in hand right? I've been toiling over this for about a year now and well since the baby has arrived, I cannot stall this decision any longer.
The car will need to seat mom, dad and baby as well as two dogs. I figure mom/dad up front, baby in the middle and dogs in the back. The most functional option seems to be a wagon but with all sorts of "crossover" vehicles out there it makes the decision that much tougher. Price is huge factor; I'm figuring around 20k. I'd like only consider hybrids but they seem to be waaay out of my price range so one that gets around 22 miles per gallon will be fine for now. Lastly, I'd like to get a car that is only a year or two old. They seem to be the most economical, have relatively low milage with the possibility of some sort of warranty.
Here's my list so far.
Ford - Freestyle
Ford - Escape
Volkswagon - Passat Wagon
Subaru - Outback
Toyota - Highlander
Honda - CR-V
Honday - Element
I have gone from one autotrader search to the next just trying to absorb all of the info that's out there but when it comes down to it, I really do not have a clue where I should begin. This obviously begs the question, "Have I test driven anything." and the answer is not yet but soon (this weekend I hopefully plan to start). I'm hoping some of you might have some insight into any of the cars I mentioned above or might want to add one that I might have overlooked. Many thanks in advance.
those are decent cars. check with consumer reports on the reliability reports- vw has had some issues recently. edmunds.com also has info and reviews
since this is to be 'the family car', look for tons of safety features from ABS to side airbags. in some places 4wd is a 'safety feature' but if you really need to get going, stopping is more important.
a used prius/civic hybrid should be below 20K if you can find one. the civic is bigger then they used to be.
Thanks, tk and b. I think my biggest anxiety/frustration comes from trying to cull through a list of 7 different types of cars. There are too many factors that come into play with each model. I just had a lengthy conversation with dad (who I consider mr. automobile). He immediately pointed this out. I think what I might do is just take the car that I know will work for us and try to find a deal that works within our budget. For this I think the Freestyle fits the bill. We've even rented one for a week and loved it. Thanks again!
If you would like to get a bigger hybrid you can always get something like the Mazda Tribute Hybrid, which gets about 30 mpg and costs 25k-30k (if you get the luxury add-ons). It qualifies for a $3,000 tax credit. This (I believe) also applies to the Escape Hybrid and Mariner Hybrid. Plus, then you have the lesser fuel costs...
My husband drove a lot of cars during his last stint doing body work (8 months ago) and was very, very impressed with the Freestyle - and he has always hated Fords! (except for his '63 custom baby, of course, but it hardly counts)
I drove a Subaru Impreza, not the Outback package but almost, and loved it for the entire four years of the lease. It was a total champ in snow and easy to load a ton into. Since your dogs are big you might go up to the Legacy Outback instead.
I also know two families with the Passat wagon - older models b0th - and they both love it.
I second the Subaru, I've got an Impreza Wagon as well and it's pretty awesome. Definitely agree that you should go with the full sized wagon though. For an all-wheel drive car it gets pretty great gas mileage, and the cost isn't too outrageous.
Don't know about the straight Impreza, but the beef I had with the WRXs is with the turbo the car feels underpowered unless you have the foot to the floor all the time. Weird for a car listed at 220 hp.
I have an Element and it is great - the urethane floors would be good for the kiddies. Dunno if you can jam the dogs in too - with the back seats in the rear cargo space is very vertical. Good for dogs that are small or ones that stack.
I'd avoid Ford like the plague (unless you're buying a pickup truck)... They're horrible from a reliability standpoint, and every Ford I've driven has had an incredibly cheap, shoddy feel to it.
Toyota, Honda, and Subaru, by comparison, generally rank very high for reliability (in roughly that order).
oh just great...a thread on archinect about station wagons. this place is becoming too...um, mature...for a young snapper like myself.
i can't wait until we start having threads about blood pressure medication, houses without stairs and which cruise lines offer the buffets with the best price value
hmmm...anybody else wondering what is the best time to cash out their life insurance policy? Or should I start a seperate thread for that?
Can't post a long rebuttal - gotta get to Bed Bath and Beyond before it closes. But know this: Thermodynamics dictates that all things in nature trend towards lameness. Your time will come.
We've that V50 wagon pictured, love it. It's a great highway car, has room for our big dog, and yet is easy to parallel park in the city. However, the best buy would be a 2-yr or 3-yr old low mileage station wagon (I recommend the Volvo big wagon for all the cargo space) and get the net for the big dogs stashed in back. New used car is the best value, and the Volvos last forever. Have an independent mechanic look at the car before you buy it; should cost you around $50 for the "look-see". And buy the last day of the month when the dealership car salesmen need to make their quota. Happy shopping.
Woo-hoo! You go, wet one! Hijack the thread and turn it into a planning/social engineering exercise. Would John Cline pay 20k to a planner to make a viable neighborhood that would replace his car purchase? Let's see: walkability to services, dog park, wireless for work, farmers market, access to activities for a growing child ... diaper dispensing machines on the corner!
despite your miserable tigers beating the tide last night...the pontiac vibe is a pretty cool and affordable car, starting at $16k for the current model year. it's smaller than some of the cars you're looking at (which might not be a bad thing, much better fuel economy). a lot of those crossover suvs tend to be more suv than stationwagon (see the freestyle/highlander), but the vibe is more like a sleek stationwagon. if you can fit everyone in, it seems like a good car for the money.
i've had bad luck with subaru. if something goes bad in one they're very expensive to get fixed.
highlander has a hybrid version now. and, if it doesn't already, i think honda has a hybrid pilot on the way.
close friends of ours just bought a pilot because we can accommodate all four of us plus our three kids' car seats in it. highlander had similar space.
surprised you've got cr-v and element on your list but not pilot with all that you're trying to accommodate. are the dogs small? are used pilots still too expensive?
My advise would be to leave the dogs at home and get something small and efficient. Gasoline prices are only going up. My wife and I are both looking at downsizing our cars and increasing fuel economy ~ and both our cars now do about 25/30 mpg.
Here's some links from a quick look at Yahoo Energy News.
on that note (since we don't have dogs), i'll offer that we find it works perfectly well/comfortably to travel with both of our girls in car seats and any luggage we need in my civic hybrid.
this weekend, traveling into the mountains, i was averaging about 40mpg. in florida, where my wife's family lives, it's flat enough that i can get 50mpg.
Thanks folks. Steven, the hybrid highlanders are quite pricey as well as the pilots. The pilot is also a little bit more car (IMO) than we need. Plus they don't get very good gas mileage. jafidler, we did look at a Vibe and decided they are just a bit too small. If we put the dogs in the back and got rear-ended they'd be toast (They both weight about 50 lbs). Meaning the back is pretty damn small. lb, thanks for those links. I'll check them out! and puddles, I don't live on an island; I live outside of Detroit. You know what it's like here....
sigh. Otherwise we didn't get a chance to test drive anything this past weekend with family in town.
it seems like there are a lot of different places one could put his priorities. just coming off my '05 lease, i'm so happy to be able to downsize our number of vehicles from two to one. i'm saving the $280/month lease plus the $215/month insurance plus gas plus registration plus tags (plus...uhhem...tickets). it's a huge savings for us. coming off that experience, i'm all for saving the environment, but i'm more excited to be able to spend less money. anything you can do to save a few dollars here and there (cheaper car, older car (less insurance), better gas mileage) is well worth it, though it's hard to put your head around now when you just need a car to meet your needs.
I know what you mean, jafidler. We've been operating on one car for over 2 years now. 90% of the time I was up at studio, the wife was home without a car. It wasn't so bad being so close to downtown RO but it still makes her feel stuck. And now with the little'un here, I just don't want to leave her home without a car...
Check out the new Scion xB. Lots of room, lots of safety features, and they start around 16K for the manual (17K for automatic). Mileage estimates are 22/28. The older xBs get better mileage but you can't get features like side airbags and cruise control. The new ones are also slightly larger (I think 6 inches longer, 2-3 inches wider). My brother has an older one with two kids and loves it. The back seats have a ton of leg room so it's easy to get kids in and out. They don't sit as high as most SUVs and CUVs so it's easier for kids to get in and out of.
i havent completely read all the posts so i hope im not repeating any information but i'll contribute a little.
i agree with those above talking about ford's reliability issues... though they have been improving lately, they are still much less refined in almost all area's than their Japanese counterparts. My family had a passat wagon a while back... put insane miles on it and it was always solid... plus fun to drive!
i worked for years at a toyota dealership and can vouch for the unusually high number of toyata's with high miles... especially their SUV's... we would consistantly see 200,000 miles plus on 4 runners especially, they are very reliable.
Also learned in that experience to be careful with mazda's, especially used. Many of their sedans and small trucks used ford transmissions which were known among the mechanics at our shop to be notoriously trashy. I believe they still share parts... it might be something to keep in mind.
someone mentioned a civic hybrid getting 40-50mpg... something I don't understand, is why those cars aren't getting quite a bit better mileage than that. I used to drive a well-used '87 civic that would match those figures. A friend had a CRX - HF that would run 60+ mpg in the right conditions. Seems odd to me that it now takes a hybrid to accomplish what was possible a couple decades ago with a regular car.
There's a few reasons those old Hondas from the 80's did so well on gasoline. First is that they were quite small by comparison. The Civic of today is more the size of the Accord 15-20 years ago. Second is the weight. Airbags and safety features add a lot of weight. Luxury items like power windows also add weight. Add those together and you need a more powerful engine to move this heavy and bigger car down the road. Add in the fact that people have trended towards quicker more powerful cars (even in the econ segment) and you get a vehicle in 2007 that is quite different than in 1987.
Cisselicious reminded me to praise my own Scion XB, which I love. It's one of the first year models (I think the new model is horribly ugly - they took everything that was cool-ugly about the original body style and threw it out to make it uncool-ugly, IMO). We can pack a lot into it and it is pretty fun to drive - sits up high enough to feel fun but not like you're driving a tank.
Not a lot of room in the back for the doggies, though - the new ones with the extended body would have more. But they're ugly.
There are some of those "dimensional" reasons, aqua -- you're right... but I guess what baffles me is that given 20 years of new technology plus the substantial premium one pays for hybrids, the 40 mpg hybrid result then still seems a bit lame.
the 'substantial premium' was mitigated some when i bought mine in '03, sandroad. i paid about $3k extra and got about $3k as a tax exemption, not that they're the same thing, but...
and yes, a crx was a different animal, more comparable to honda's insight which got much higher mpg.
I'm not knocking anyone for buying a hybrid, and I do know what a CRX is -- in any case, I really love Hondas. Part of what I'm trying to get at comes from looking at new Honda Civic Hybrids vs new Honda Civic "Standard" models. Even this side-by-side is not very direct... 10 mpgs better on the hybrid, but with a 30 hp less powerful motor... 110hp hybrid vs. 140 standard. What if a 110hp standard were available? Maybe then only a 7 or 8 mpg difference? I may be alone on this, but it just seems like the numbers are disappointingly close between the two.
2cents-
i drive a audi 2.0T A3 hatchback, hottest little car out there. audi badging and comfort, 0-60 in 6.5 sec, 5ppl + 1 dog, dual clutch shifting, 30 mpg....
now thats an architect's car! sustainable, understated, classy, aesthetic.
so i'm definately attracted to the pic of the rs4 avant (the audi a4 would be the reasonable option). but within the listed options its a toss up between a passat (don't get a 1.8T or 2.0T, too way underpowered) and the highlander (though it's gotta be their hybrid).
happy car shopping, it's a fun time!
John Cline you and I are in parallel pursuits right now. Been researching cars/trucks for months now as baby's arrival nears. My car is two-door, and not that family friendly. I am dealing with the same conditions (kid, dogs, fuel efficiency) that you are with the added requirement that the car have all-wheel or 4-wheel drive, which is needed where I live.
I think used is best, no older than 2001 or so, with hopefully not much more than 50-60k miles on it. I have a similar price range as well. So far I have narrowed it down to
VW Passat Wagon (4motion)
Audi All-Road (quattro wagon)
Volvo xc90 (all wheel wagon)
or, just for fun
full-size crew-cab short-bed diesel truck that I can run on bio-fuel.
blaise I am jealous! If I had a bigger budget I would go for the A3 - I drove one and it was pretty much a dream. A bit small for the family & dogs, but hey kids stay small for quite some time, right?
tater- ehh i'm young myself and theres no family to drive around yet. just a dog. now you have some very nice options in front of you. as an audi man i have to props the allroad. of course i only speak of the first generation, 2.7 liter twinturbo (chip those badboys you got yourself 300+ hp), adjustable air suspencion... you can walk up to your car everymorning and decide do i want to drive the sporty S4, practical stationwagon, or offroad rallycar. plus its one of only two wagons a man can be seen driving, the otehr being the crosscountry of course (yes even even audi S and RS wagons are nomansland in my book). i took on a firstgen allroad the other day in my 20t a3, trounced me i'm ashamed to say, seemed inordinately quick might have been chipped or KO4ed. eitherway, allroad no doubt!
anyone peeped volva's new c30? When i first saw it i thought the a3 got butt cheek implants! damn, dumps like a truck!
bad sign when you google image it and half the results are shopped in an attempted to make it appear as if it does not have downs syndrome.
every time someone tells me about how their own/friend's audi is always in the shop, I want to cover my ears and go lalalalalalaaaaa. It's bad enough I have to sell my little sleeper gti, but at least an allroad feels like a good compromise between fun & functionality. Am hoping if I go that route that a ceritified used will be more reliable??
Added another car (this one new) to the list - it seems to take its new body-styling cues from the Audi A3 and the Volvo c30:
2008 Subaru Impreza wagon or Outback Sport (new and right at 20k), not to be confused with an Outback wagon. Where I live the full-size wagons are EVERYWHERE and I'm over it.
Vado, do we work at the same office? Actually, my bosses seem to have pretty good luck with their A6 and TT. I always thought it was the older you go with Audi's the more problem-prone they are -- I think the newer ones are really great quality, aren't they?
Resale value on all cars are crappy, but it is even crappier if the car isn't loaded with options. Also, not that this applies to you JC, but convertables have TERRIBLE resale value; you can't even give those things away. So if you get a new, or even slightly used car, go for as many options as possible. I know these things from experience, and car dealer connections.
On hybrids...
Their gas mileage is dependent on how you actually drive. If you are an accelerate quickly kind of driver, then your mileage will be pretty similar to a standard car. If you are a slow accelator, and coast a lot, then you will do better, but that goes for standard cars as well. Basically, if you can manage the high end of the MPG spectrum in a standard car, you will get higher end MPG in a hybrid, and visa versa. Oh, and many cars on the market today actually have low to no emissions, so I wouldn't even think about that. The air coming out of the tail pipe is often cleaner than the air you are breathing.
On Fords...
They have come a long way in the past few years. They have far surpased chevy in how they feel and perform for the money, and I believe they are really trying to compete with companies like VW and Honda. The only problems I've had from my 07 focus has been little personal things, like rattles, or other interior work; I'm a high maintenance owner, what can I say. Husbands 08 Mustang GT actually rides like a BMW, and is optioned out about like one. I have been very impressed with it. I was, however unimpressed with the V6 mustang, it did feel cheap and plasticy.
And one extra, little known fact....
On Ethano, E85...
Because its air to fuel ratio is different than Gas, and no I can't remember the numbers or that fancy chemistry term that means that, you will get worse gas mileage using it, and wear down your engine faster. It also is showing to produce smog, which hangs close to Earth, even though it doesn't produce CO2. Yes, its cheaper, but its less efficient, so don't buy it based on cost. But I'm not saying don't buy it at all, thats your own personal choice, and I don't really care.
Another Car Thread
So with the the new addition to the family, we are in need of a new car... they go hand in hand right? I've been toiling over this for about a year now and well since the baby has arrived, I cannot stall this decision any longer.
The car will need to seat mom, dad and baby as well as two dogs. I figure mom/dad up front, baby in the middle and dogs in the back. The most functional option seems to be a wagon but with all sorts of "crossover" vehicles out there it makes the decision that much tougher. Price is huge factor; I'm figuring around 20k. I'd like only consider hybrids but they seem to be waaay out of my price range so one that gets around 22 miles per gallon will be fine for now. Lastly, I'd like to get a car that is only a year or two old. They seem to be the most economical, have relatively low milage with the possibility of some sort of warranty.
Here's my list so far.
Ford - Freestyle
Ford - Escape
Volkswagon - Passat Wagon
Subaru - Outback
Toyota - Highlander
Honda - CR-V
Honday - Element
I have gone from one autotrader search to the next just trying to absorb all of the info that's out there but when it comes down to it, I really do not have a clue where I should begin. This obviously begs the question, "Have I test driven anything." and the answer is not yet but soon (this weekend I hopefully plan to start). I'm hoping some of you might have some insight into any of the cars I mentioned above or might want to add one that I might have overlooked. Many thanks in advance.
those are decent cars. check with consumer reports on the reliability reports- vw has had some issues recently. edmunds.com also has info and reviews
since this is to be 'the family car', look for tons of safety features from ABS to side airbags. in some places 4wd is a 'safety feature' but if you really need to get going, stopping is more important.
a used prius/civic hybrid should be below 20K if you can find one. the civic is bigger then they used to be.
good luck!!!
i would suggest getting something that is 2-3 years old...this would be enough time for the bugs to be fixed and a lower price.....
not sure if you would be interested in a quad cab truck maybe.... you can always put a cap on the bed and toss the dogs back there....
i dont think you would want anything that sits low and has a low roof...might be a pain to strap in the little one/etc.....
congrats on the new little one
b
Thanks, tk and b. I think my biggest anxiety/frustration comes from trying to cull through a list of 7 different types of cars. There are too many factors that come into play with each model. I just had a lengthy conversation with dad (who I consider mr. automobile). He immediately pointed this out. I think what I might do is just take the car that I know will work for us and try to find a deal that works within our budget. For this I think the Freestyle fits the bill. We've even rented one for a week and loved it. Thanks again!
If you would like to get a bigger hybrid you can always get something like the Mazda Tribute Hybrid, which gets about 30 mpg and costs 25k-30k (if you get the luxury add-ons). It qualifies for a $3,000 tax credit. This (I believe) also applies to the Escape Hybrid and Mariner Hybrid. Plus, then you have the lesser fuel costs...
Plymouth Voyager 3 Concept:
My husband drove a lot of cars during his last stint doing body work (8 months ago) and was very, very impressed with the Freestyle - and he has always hated Fords! (except for his '63 custom baby, of course, but it hardly counts)
I drove a Subaru Impreza, not the Outback package but almost, and loved it for the entire four years of the lease. It was a total champ in snow and easy to load a ton into. Since your dogs are big you might go up to the Legacy Outback instead.
I also know two families with the Passat wagon - older models b0th - and they both love it.
I second the Subaru, I've got an Impreza Wagon as well and it's pretty awesome. Definitely agree that you should go with the full sized wagon though. For an all-wheel drive car it gets pretty great gas mileage, and the cost isn't too outrageous.
Don't know about the straight Impreza, but the beef I had with the WRXs is with the turbo the car feels underpowered unless you have the foot to the floor all the time. Weird for a car listed at 220 hp.
I have an Element and it is great - the urethane floors would be good for the kiddies. Dunno if you can jam the dogs in too - with the back seats in the rear cargo space is very vertical. Good for dogs that are small or ones that stack.
I'd avoid Ford like the plague (unless you're buying a pickup truck)... They're horrible from a reliability standpoint, and every Ford I've driven has had an incredibly cheap, shoddy feel to it.
Toyota, Honda, and Subaru, by comparison, generally rank very high for reliability (in roughly that order).
i would go with the Subaru or Toyota...also, look at Mazdas
I'm not a car person. I can't compare one vs. the other in terms of price, performance, and durability.
But visually, I think that the Volkswagon Passat Wagon is the most attractive and classy option from the ones you listed.
is that plymouth thing actually articulated?
oh just great...a thread on archinect about station wagons. this place is becoming too...um, mature...for a young snapper like myself.
i can't wait until we start having threads about blood pressure medication, houses without stairs and which cruise lines offer the buffets with the best price value
hmmm...anybody else wondering what is the best time to cash out their life insurance policy? Or should I start a seperate thread for that?
Can't post a long rebuttal - gotta get to Bed Bath and Beyond before it closes. But know this: Thermodynamics dictates that all things in nature trend towards lameness. Your time will come.
I would stay away from VW's...
try this...
so purty. It is a essentially a Ford / Mazda
car
info
from
Daddytypes
Be sure to read the comments after the posts - lots of info in there.
LB
did/do you make you husband carry the diaper bag?
We've never had a diaper bag - just a black unisex backpack.
We've that V50 wagon pictured, love it. It's a great highway car, has room for our big dog, and yet is easy to parallel park in the city. However, the best buy would be a 2-yr or 3-yr old low mileage station wagon (I recommend the Volvo big wagon for all the cargo space) and get the net for the big dogs stashed in back. New used car is the best value, and the Volvos last forever. Have an independent mechanic look at the car before you buy it; should cost you around $50 for the "look-see". And buy the last day of the month when the dealership car salesmen need to make their quota. Happy shopping.
You guys are TORTURING me!
Okay. I'm off the wagon.
Citroen DS Safari. Nothing else will do.
You're welcome.
what if you just skipped the car and made a hablt of walking in stead? That' be impressive!
Woo-hoo! You go, wet one! Hijack the thread and turn it into a planning/social engineering exercise. Would John Cline pay 20k to a planner to make a viable neighborhood that would replace his car purchase? Let's see: walkability to services, dog park, wireless for work, farmers market, access to activities for a growing child ... diaper dispensing machines on the corner!
Lancer EVO wagon
despite your miserable tigers beating the tide last night...the pontiac vibe is a pretty cool and affordable car, starting at $16k for the current model year. it's smaller than some of the cars you're looking at (which might not be a bad thing, much better fuel economy). a lot of those crossover suvs tend to be more suv than stationwagon (see the freestyle/highlander), but the vibe is more like a sleek stationwagon. if you can fit everyone in, it seems like a good car for the money.
i've had bad luck with subaru. if something goes bad in one they're very expensive to get fixed.
highlander has a hybrid version now. and, if it doesn't already, i think honda has a hybrid pilot on the way.
close friends of ours just bought a pilot because we can accommodate all four of us plus our three kids' car seats in it. highlander had similar space.
surprised you've got cr-v and element on your list but not pilot with all that you're trying to accommodate. are the dogs small? are used pilots still too expensive?
how 'bout escape hybrid for the cr-v size option?
My advise would be to leave the dogs at home and get something small and efficient. Gasoline prices are only going up. My wife and I are both looking at downsizing our cars and increasing fuel economy ~ and both our cars now do about 25/30 mpg.
Here's some links from a quick look at Yahoo Energy News.
Oil prices to keep rising as demand grows
Demand, and high oil prices, are here to stay
Diesel costs trickle down
Why electric cars look to accelerate
Ethanol proves to be the big letdown of 2007
Reaching our Peak Oil supply
on that note (since we don't have dogs), i'll offer that we find it works perfectly well/comfortably to travel with both of our girls in car seats and any luggage we need in my civic hybrid.
this weekend, traveling into the mountains, i was averaging about 40mpg. in florida, where my wife's family lives, it's flat enough that i can get 50mpg.
Thanks folks. Steven, the hybrid highlanders are quite pricey as well as the pilots. The pilot is also a little bit more car (IMO) than we need. Plus they don't get very good gas mileage. jafidler, we did look at a Vibe and decided they are just a bit too small. If we put the dogs in the back and got rear-ended they'd be toast (They both weight about 50 lbs). Meaning the back is pretty damn small. lb, thanks for those links. I'll check them out! and puddles, I don't live on an island; I live outside of Detroit. You know what it's like here....
sigh. Otherwise we didn't get a chance to test drive anything this past weekend with family in town.
it seems like there are a lot of different places one could put his priorities. just coming off my '05 lease, i'm so happy to be able to downsize our number of vehicles from two to one. i'm saving the $280/month lease plus the $215/month insurance plus gas plus registration plus tags (plus...uhhem...tickets). it's a huge savings for us. coming off that experience, i'm all for saving the environment, but i'm more excited to be able to spend less money. anything you can do to save a few dollars here and there (cheaper car, older car (less insurance), better gas mileage) is well worth it, though it's hard to put your head around now when you just need a car to meet your needs.
I know what you mean, jafidler. We've been operating on one car for over 2 years now. 90% of the time I was up at studio, the wife was home without a car. It wasn't so bad being so close to downtown RO but it still makes her feel stuck. And now with the little'un here, I just don't want to leave her home without a car...
Check out the new Scion xB. Lots of room, lots of safety features, and they start around 16K for the manual (17K for automatic). Mileage estimates are 22/28. The older xBs get better mileage but you can't get features like side airbags and cruise control. The new ones are also slightly larger (I think 6 inches longer, 2-3 inches wider). My brother has an older one with two kids and loves it. The back seats have a ton of leg room so it's easy to get kids in and out. They don't sit as high as most SUVs and CUVs so it's easier for kids to get in and out of.
i havent completely read all the posts so i hope im not repeating any information but i'll contribute a little.
i agree with those above talking about ford's reliability issues... though they have been improving lately, they are still much less refined in almost all area's than their Japanese counterparts. My family had a passat wagon a while back... put insane miles on it and it was always solid... plus fun to drive!
i worked for years at a toyota dealership and can vouch for the unusually high number of toyata's with high miles... especially their SUV's... we would consistantly see 200,000 miles plus on 4 runners especially, they are very reliable.
Also learned in that experience to be careful with mazda's, especially used. Many of their sedans and small trucks used ford transmissions which were known among the mechanics at our shop to be notoriously trashy. I believe they still share parts... it might be something to keep in mind.
ebay the wife and kids and buy yourself one of these...
best move you will ever make...trust me
someone mentioned a civic hybrid getting 40-50mpg... something I don't understand, is why those cars aren't getting quite a bit better mileage than that. I used to drive a well-used '87 civic that would match those figures. A friend had a CRX - HF that would run 60+ mpg in the right conditions. Seems odd to me that it now takes a hybrid to accomplish what was possible a couple decades ago with a regular car.
There's a few reasons those old Hondas from the 80's did so well on gasoline. First is that they were quite small by comparison. The Civic of today is more the size of the Accord 15-20 years ago. Second is the weight. Airbags and safety features add a lot of weight. Luxury items like power windows also add weight. Add those together and you need a more powerful engine to move this heavy and bigger car down the road. Add in the fact that people have trended towards quicker more powerful cars (even in the econ segment) and you get a vehicle in 2007 that is quite different than in 1987.
Cisselicious reminded me to praise my own Scion XB, which I love. It's one of the first year models (I think the new model is horribly ugly - they took everything that was cool-ugly about the original body style and threw it out to make it uncool-ugly, IMO). We can pack a lot into it and it is pretty fun to drive - sits up high enough to feel fun but not like you're driving a tank.
Not a lot of room in the back for the doggies, though - the new ones with the extended body would have more. But they're ugly.
There are some of those "dimensional" reasons, aqua -- you're right... but I guess what baffles me is that given 20 years of new technology plus the substantial premium one pays for hybrids, the 40 mpg hybrid result then still seems a bit lame.
save some bucks and ride in style.
the 'substantial premium' was mitigated some when i bought mine in '03, sandroad. i paid about $3k extra and got about $3k as a tax exemption, not that they're the same thing, but...
and yes, a crx was a different animal, more comparable to honda's insight which got much higher mpg.
I'm not knocking anyone for buying a hybrid, and I do know what a CRX is -- in any case, I really love Hondas. Part of what I'm trying to get at comes from looking at new Honda Civic Hybrids vs new Honda Civic "Standard" models. Even this side-by-side is not very direct... 10 mpgs better on the hybrid, but with a 30 hp less powerful motor... 110hp hybrid vs. 140 standard. What if a 110hp standard were available? Maybe then only a 7 or 8 mpg difference? I may be alone on this, but it just seems like the numbers are disappointingly close between the two.
i think the other selling point, beyond mileage, is the ultra low emissions (ULEV) rating, for what it's worth.
2cents-
i drive a audi 2.0T A3 hatchback, hottest little car out there. audi badging and comfort, 0-60 in 6.5 sec, 5ppl + 1 dog, dual clutch shifting, 30 mpg....
now thats an architect's car! sustainable, understated, classy, aesthetic.
so i'm definately attracted to the pic of the rs4 avant (the audi a4 would be the reasonable option). but within the listed options its a toss up between a passat (don't get a 1.8T or 2.0T, too way underpowered) and the highlander (though it's gotta be their hybrid).
happy car shopping, it's a fun time!
John Cline you and I are in parallel pursuits right now. Been researching cars/trucks for months now as baby's arrival nears. My car is two-door, and not that family friendly. I am dealing with the same conditions (kid, dogs, fuel efficiency) that you are with the added requirement that the car have all-wheel or 4-wheel drive, which is needed where I live.
I think used is best, no older than 2001 or so, with hopefully not much more than 50-60k miles on it. I have a similar price range as well. So far I have narrowed it down to
VW Passat Wagon (4motion)
Audi All-Road (quattro wagon)
Volvo xc90 (all wheel wagon)
or, just for fun
full-size crew-cab short-bed diesel truck that I can run on bio-fuel.
blaise I am jealous! If I had a bigger budget I would go for the A3 - I drove one and it was pretty much a dream. A bit small for the family & dogs, but hey kids stay small for quite some time, right?
On the other end, where MPG and emissions just don't matter: I have a friend who is bent for leather on importing a Defender 110.
tater- ehh i'm young myself and theres no family to drive around yet. just a dog. now you have some very nice options in front of you. as an audi man i have to props the allroad. of course i only speak of the first generation, 2.7 liter twinturbo (chip those badboys you got yourself 300+ hp), adjustable air suspencion... you can walk up to your car everymorning and decide do i want to drive the sporty S4, practical stationwagon, or offroad rallycar. plus its one of only two wagons a man can be seen driving, the otehr being the crosscountry of course (yes even even audi S and RS wagons are nomansland in my book). i took on a firstgen allroad the other day in my 20t a3, trounced me i'm ashamed to say, seemed inordinately quick might have been chipped or KO4ed. eitherway, allroad no doubt!
anyone peeped volva's new c30? When i first saw it i thought the a3 got butt cheek implants! damn, dumps like a truck!
bad sign when you google image it and half the results are shopped in an attempted to make it appear as if it does not have downs syndrome.
two principles in my firm have audis that always seem to be in the shop. im just sayin'
every time someone tells me about how their own/friend's audi is always in the shop, I want to cover my ears and go lalalalalalaaaaa. It's bad enough I have to sell my little sleeper gti, but at least an allroad feels like a good compromise between fun & functionality. Am hoping if I go that route that a ceritified used will be more reliable??
Added another car (this one new) to the list - it seems to take its new body-styling cues from the Audi A3 and the Volvo c30:
2008 Subaru Impreza wagon or Outback Sport (new and right at 20k), not to be confused with an Outback wagon. Where I live the full-size wagons are EVERYWHERE and I'm over it.
Vado, do we work at the same office? Actually, my bosses seem to have pretty good luck with their A6 and TT. I always thought it was the older you go with Audi's the more problem-prone they are -- I think the newer ones are really great quality, aren't they?
just something to think about...
Resale value on all cars are crappy, but it is even crappier if the car isn't loaded with options. Also, not that this applies to you JC, but convertables have TERRIBLE resale value; you can't even give those things away. So if you get a new, or even slightly used car, go for as many options as possible. I know these things from experience, and car dealer connections.
On hybrids...
Their gas mileage is dependent on how you actually drive. If you are an accelerate quickly kind of driver, then your mileage will be pretty similar to a standard car. If you are a slow accelator, and coast a lot, then you will do better, but that goes for standard cars as well. Basically, if you can manage the high end of the MPG spectrum in a standard car, you will get higher end MPG in a hybrid, and visa versa. Oh, and many cars on the market today actually have low to no emissions, so I wouldn't even think about that. The air coming out of the tail pipe is often cleaner than the air you are breathing.
On Fords...
They have come a long way in the past few years. They have far surpased chevy in how they feel and perform for the money, and I believe they are really trying to compete with companies like VW and Honda. The only problems I've had from my 07 focus has been little personal things, like rattles, or other interior work; I'm a high maintenance owner, what can I say. Husbands 08 Mustang GT actually rides like a BMW, and is optioned out about like one. I have been very impressed with it. I was, however unimpressed with the V6 mustang, it did feel cheap and plasticy.
And one extra, little known fact....
On Ethano, E85...
Because its air to fuel ratio is different than Gas, and no I can't remember the numbers or that fancy chemistry term that means that, you will get worse gas mileage using it, and wear down your engine faster. It also is showing to produce smog, which hangs close to Earth, even though it doesn't produce CO2. Yes, its cheaper, but its less efficient, so don't buy it based on cost. But I'm not saying don't buy it at all, thats your own personal choice, and I don't really care.
Thats all the insider stuff I know at the moment.
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