It's a tough dilemma because if it's built into thier business model there probably isn't much you can do about it.

If they're good about scheduling, staffing, and bidding hours on a project, they know how many hours of CD work they need and they've probably got it covered and you're in the marketing budget which means if they move you over they'll be heavy on that side and weak on design unless they get more work that you can pick up and hire someone to replace you on the marketing side (or if they slow down in the marketing department).

I was in a similar situation for over a year, I politely voiced my opinion on it from time to time, and finally asked for a formal review as had been promised at the 3 month mark but didn't come until about 10 months with freequent prodding. I informed them that I'd like to be involved in more of the process. One Partner thought it was a good idea. The other partner didn't and asked if doing CA was what I wanted to do for a living like so and so, I said no but I felt that some exposure to it was important for my development and even for me to do my job doing the design. I need to understand how my decisions early on affect the project as a whole.

I was told that wasn't going to happen.

So I quit (not right after the meeting it was probably months later).

Looking back I may have been a bit hasty. Hiring an employee is kind of a big deal and the training of an architect takes a life time. I can see it from the employers perspective as well, you've got a talented designer that doesn't know how to build and an experienced PA that can't design to save his life, why on earth would you have to two trade places? I wasn't real far out of school but man I was tired of paper architecture. And I wanted to learn about the profession.

Personally I think you're right it is important to your development and long term it is to the company (especially if they want to keep you around).

I'd say talk to them one more time, express how important it is to you (without threatening to leave), and see if you can get them to commit to something with a timeline in it, that way the end is in sight and if they still don't deliver you've given them the benefit of the doubt without "wasting" too much of your time. Also I'd propose a 50/50 split on your time to begin with try and get them to ease into into it and then slowly take do less and less marketing.

And if you do jump ship make sure you've got something lined up that is going to work for you and that your new employer is aware of your situation and doesn't put you in the same one.

P.S.

This is one of my problems with IDP, it places upon the "intern" the responsibility for something that is out of their control. If your boss says they don't want you doing CD's what are you supposed to do?

great feedback psycho.

let me express to you my biggest fear. right now, as it currently stands, if i were to "jump ship" and try to get a position at another firm, what knowledge, what areas of architecture have i improved upon or learned in the last year and 1/2? the answer to that questions is sadly not much.

yes, my rendering skills are great, i'm one hell of a powerpoint talent, and my schematic design skills are fantastic. i'm great at sketchup. i'm a photoshop wiz. i know how to take the big picture items from a program and layout one heck of a design that works, flows and makes sense.

however, i still do not know how to put together construction documents. i am no better today at CDs than i was from the day i graduated with my M.Arch. ... now that troubles me. i sometimes lose sleep over this idea.

during my review in may, my boss informed me that i have the talent and skills to be a principal one day and he rarely sees that in most workers he hires. he said i have that i am an extremely well rounded person, and very motivated. i can sell, i can communicate, i can design, i have the education, and the personality to do so.

with that said, i want to make one thing clear -- i understand that in this profession, you need to put in the time. like you mentioned, it takes a lifetime to understand how architecture, as a whole, works. i've interned for 4 summers, ive gotten my m.arch, and now i've put in my time in marketing for almost 2 years. i just feel like i need to get down and dirty with the technical aspect, and am worried that if i don't make a move now into code research, sections, details, etc. etc, that i'll regret it -- let me rephrase -- not only will i regret it, it will hurt my development as an architect.

cmdace18...This is easy...Quit your corporate job and move on to another office, perhaps a smaller office where everyone is expected to wear different hats and share in the responsibilities of the work.

Your presentation skills will get you interviews and you can use that to negotiate a deal to share your presentation experiences to help your new office in exchange for the opportunities to get wet in the CD/CA side of architecture.

You have a Masters Degree, you should not allow yourself to be pigeon-holed into doing marketing. If they haven't acted on your requests to broaden your experience and skill set, then it tells me that they really don't want to. They found their marketing person, and that person is you. They are going to sweet talk you to avoid taking any real responsibility as it is easier for them to play this game that it will be to train you to do something else.

If you feel you want to give them another 6 months to allow you to start learning CDs and show that they are wanting to invest in you for the long term, then stay. However, if I were you...I would leave.

if you do leave, you might not want to go to TOO small a firm. your skills may be difficult for a small firm to use a lot of the time and they'll be forced to drop you - sink or swim style - into project management. a fast way to learn, but not a good way to learn.

if you find another mid- to large-size firm that needs the skills you've already developed but is not so big that they can dedicate you to that work and need to spread you around more, you might find a good balance.

or you may just need to wait around a while. i was the marketing/rendering guy for my last office. (this was pre-digital > hand-rendering, etc.) in the 10yrs i was there i ended up with what i think is a perfectly well-rounded background, despite FEELING like i was in little boxes over long periods of that time. if you got broader experience, would you stick at this office for a period like 10yrs?

its funny most of the time the complaint I hear is that folks are too good at working drawings and never get a chance to do design (schematic/detail) much less the marketing side of presentations etc, usually reserved for principals etc.

You sell yourself well, you've manage to tell of your talents without seeming conceited, which takes talent...as such I think when you talk with your employers I doubt you'll have much problems. Gift of the gab?

good luck and let us know...

personally however I think that you are approaching something which may be a professional violation. I don't know much about the AIA but were I am from, if employers have the opportunity but don't allow professional development from trianed architects they can have disciplinary action taken against them. Of course it is a case of cutting your nose off to spite your face scenario.

you may want to start hanging out with those that do working drawings, spending extra time at work if needs be. As you've said you suck at it, get better until they realise they need you. And as I've found folks who are good at schematic design also tend to be able to get over the hurdles that arise during cds...where to put what I call it.

I've been there.

In a corporate office, if they find out you're good at presentations, it's unlikely they'll move you into what is by all accounts far less sexy and "valuable" work: construction documents.

I was at at a fairly well-known midsize firm for three years. Right off the bat, they found out that I had a good graphic eye and could do renderings. No matter how much I pleaded, whenever a rendering came up, they'd pull me off of what I was doing to model and render and do diagrams. I always worked on the front end of projects—from concept to the end of schematics. But there was also a group of "back-end" guys, who did all of the detailing and CDs. They hated how they were stuck too. Always complaining that they never got to design.

On the flip side, if your ambition is to own your on firm, then good marketing and presentation skills are invaluable.

I'd also argue that a corporate firm is a lousy place to learn how to detail anyway. People tend to get pigeonholed in one thing (curtainwall design, say) and the projects are so huge that it's often impossible to get the big picture. A small to medium size firm is probably the way to go.

It sounds like the skills you've developed will definitely be invaluable in your future career, when it's your own projects you are designing / communicating / selling / presenting. What i've found is that if you move sideways, the new skills you'll learn in another firm strengthen your previous knowledge. I don't think you have anything to fear in changing jobs.

In my career I've been very proactive in moving on / telling my employers that I'm not getting the experience I need. Generally, they've been good about letting me move onto another job, when they had know they hadn't been fulfilling my professional goals. They should have listened and done something about it if they wanted to keep me on.

The sooner you find out what its like to work on CDs, doing CA, the sooner you'll know what you want to get out of your career. Good on you for recognizing there is still a lot to learn, and for wanting to be a well rounded architect.

: it's a little hard to tell from your postings, but I presume you're working for a fairly large corporate firm. While it's true firms of that sort have a greater tendency to pigeon-hole people who demonstrate a strong proficiency in a particular area, firms of that sort don't (necessarily) get where they are by being stupid. They need to be made aware the depth of your unhappiness.

When firms reach a certain size, they tend to have HR departments -- if yours does, see if you can obtain some advice from the most senior person in that department -- you express your concerns well here -- you can do the same with that person. If there's not a HR dept. to consult, approach a principal (or so) who respects your work.

You don't have to threaten to leave -- they'll understand that possibility on their own. Simply continue developing your story line that you need, and want, to develop your skills more widely -- that you'll be more valuable to the firm if you are allowed to do so.

You also may want to look around the firm to see who else can do, or be trained to do, much of what you do now. Or, perhaps you can help bring to the firm someone else with similar skills. If the firm has a lot of mouths to feed, they'll have difficulty moving you into another area until they've found another way to accomplish what you do for them now.

Good luck ... let us know how it works out.

Oh ... by the way ... we'd be happy to hire you if it doesn't work out where you are now ... you sound like the kind of talented, intelligent, thoughtful professional we'd like to have here.

You've been pigeon-holed. You have two choices: leave for another firm, or try to remold your "company profile" at the firm your at.

Do you like the firm otherwise? It's important for you to determine whether you want to "fight or flee".

If you leave for another firm, find a position in a smaller firm that does less elaborate marketing proposals for projects. (Sounds like you're presently at a firm that "gives away" the schematic design phase of project to land the commission - therefore requiring elaborate presentation materials of the proposed design concept.) Try to de-emphasize your CAD-rendering/presentation skills in interviews, and frankly note that you want to get "well-rounded" project assignments and experience towards your licensing goal.

Alternately, or concurrent with your quiet search for a new more suitable job, approach the principal and/or studio head that you're assigned to at your current office. Have a frank discussion with them, noting that you like the firm BUT you're very concerned that you're not getting the "well-rounded" project experience you need to obtain your licensing. Note that this is very important to you. (Some large-firm principals will think they've already rewarded you because you work on the "fun stuff" of design/presentations.) Be calm and very polite, but persistent and thoughtful. It may take several discussions to get the "manpower assignment person" motivated to modify your "job-slot".

It's very important to realize that at a large corporate office you need to monitor your job assignments and politely advocate for those assignments that you want. At a large office, if your're perceived as a worthy team player, you're likely to get appropriate attention. However, the "squeeky wheel gets the grease" in these situations.

wow, excellent feedback!! Thank you for the

I just want to say a view more things in response to a few comments here.

I am very well respected in the firm - in fact - I don't think people would approach me privately voicing their concern about my situation if they didn't care about me.

Yes, I am in a corporate office where we do alot of work upfront - almost design the damn project - to get work. We present to school boards to county comissions for 10M to 60M dollar projects. Its pretty ridiculous what we have to do in this profession to actually GET the work.

Anyways, I am preceived as a worthy team player. My office branch just so happens to have the head of marketing for the entire company. Sometimes I am brought in for marketing work for a branch in another state, and I cooridinate with others to get the presentation done. I also am thrown into the first of other projects to get the job done. I do a little bit of everything and do it well. I even handle IT from time to time since our recent IT guy left. One principal called me "invaluable".

Okay, onto the specific comments.

Yes, I can see myself at this firm following in my principals footsteps in 10-15 years. Yes, this is a corporate firm, but I work hand in hand daily with the principal of the firm of my branch, as well as another principal who is head of marketing for the company. My name has gotten to the CEO of the company on numerous emails with praise on wins that I have helped to secure. So, I believe I have a solid foundation at the company. That means I would be willing to stay another 6 months in an attempt to see if I can re-position my skill sets. The people at the firm are great. The diversity of projects is phenominal. We do from airports to schools, to courthouses, to fire stations to garages - even mega-yaht super structures that will be the first in the world of its kind. If I can get CDs under my belt, there is tons and tons of room to work my way up to the top.

Numerous people have mentioned to change jobs and look elsewhere. Personally, although an option, I think that's my last resort. The reason I say this is because I have built a strong base at this firm as previously said - not personal - but professional base. I know how to work with each PM, and know what is expected.

I agree on the pigeon-holed comments. I can tell you this - I rarely say no to anything. I'm always willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done and well, it looks as though it bit me in the ass.

quizzical - its funny you mention "bring someone to the firm with similar skills". I tried that!! They even interviewed him, however, it just didn't work out. This person had a comittment with the firm he was at on a project he was working on.

I think I'm going to use the most logical advice -- sit down and have a face to face talk. I think quizzical said it best -- tell them I am very happy with the firm, but I'm not getting the project experience to not only obtain licensing, but for me to fully understand this profession. I am on a great repor with the principal - so I hope he understand my position and would do some shuffling to keep me there.

you'd be stupid to leave, imho. You do seem like 'partner' material, as one of your bosses suggested, so stick it out, and yes, have a face-to-face talk that you would like to be involved in a project FROM START TO FINISH.
Its all about how you word it. Dont give a rat's ass about IDP.

If you like the firm otherwise I'd say stick it out and heed the advice above about how best to get into a position that you'll learn more. Only leave if it's clear that's really not going to happen.

And if you're going to be sticking around for a while then IDP really isn't that big of a deal, you'll get it eventually.

I think the thing to recogized (that you're employer and others in the firm already have) is you seem to have a set of skills that can't be taught or learned, hence the reason your employer is capitalizing on it. Being able to draft and put togeather CD sets can be learned, it just takes spending time doing it. It can feel like your being "passed over" when really thier holding you aside for the important work. Getting the job is the hard part.

cmdace18 - i feel like you are me. (do we work at the same place? who knows?)

in your first post you described my experience almost to a "T" - only i am at the end of 3.5 years in that situation, and i think i should have left my job a year ago. like you said, i can do anythign in sketchup, i can make great, expressive diagrams, i can organize a show for a client, and even talk them through anything on the phone. i know a ton about managing high profile clients...but very little about buildings! my firm is full of smart, creative ppl, and they pay well...which is why its hard to leave, but i just started working on my portfolio...b/c im planning to step out in teh next few months. i raised those IDP concerns over and over again....and here i am.

i have learned that in a big firm, even if they love you (and i have even been promoted...so clearly someone likes me here) they have a big machine to run, and you are a small cog. sometimes you have to just do whats best for your professional development......worry about yourself first. i dindt realize this a year ago, but i do now.

i had those face-to-face talks that those above have stressed...and in a big firm, with the big picture to worry about....they just dont always care. one partner basically told me to do my "due diligence" elsewhere...adn they'd hire me back anytime! not the answer i was looking for.

that being said, im impressed that you managed to get 70% IDP done - i have about 60% after 3+ years, b/c of this lack of building experience....which is just now beginning to frustrate me.


i say make the move, and good luck.

my advice? Quit.

That's it.

UPDATE:

Well, here's an update on the situation.

Things got really busy in the beginning of December, so I decided to hold off my talk until the new year. I had gone on vacation the last week/1st week of 07/08, and had planned to sit down with my principal in Jan.

I prefaced my meeting with a short email note:

I wanted to sit down and talk about my general role within the firm - both professionally and personally - including my staffing assignments with regards to marketing, construction documents, etc.

My principal knew exactly where I was headed with this....

Our talk lasted about an hour, and I discussed with him the wonderful experiences I had in the last two years. I talked about how some of the seasoned veterns and senior associates within our firm have not done what I did in terms of marketing and going after projects within such a short time frame - networking with clients, presentations, etc etc. I also talked about my IDP, and really emphasized the point of being a well rounded architect and the need to understand how a building is put together. This not only benefits myself, but my firm as well.

Our last sitdown was my 1 year review (may of 07) which we discussed my career goals, and path, etc. and out of that meeting came the need to become registered early on in my career. I loved doing marketing, but at some point, I need to learn and focus on working drawings. I told him that I recognized that change does not happen overnight, and a gradual fade into CDs over a few months would be reasonable. I am getting married soon, and of course with that comes a family and with THAT comes a bit of a slow down in ones career - so the need to focus on CDs and become registered soon is of the utmost importance to me.


Okay, so after all that, my principal had a chance to talk. He mentioned that its been his "intention" to get me involved with projects - especially ones that I can be integrated from start to finish. He said that when I first came to the firm that my talents with graphics and the intangables that not many people have were highly utilized with presentations. There have been a few projects that have fallen through the cracks at the onset and therefore I havent been able to be part of a team.

He described my technical skills are being "green" (which I knew), so any team that he puts me on would have to be strong upfront, with me on the bottom working my way up. I knew that as well. He said he will make a strong effort as soon as possible to get me onto a team. We have explored hiring outside rendering firms to aid in presentations and training in-house for other people to be involved in presentation work.

So, my principal now knows that I am expecting a phased transition in the next 3-6 months into project teams. I couldnt have outlined it any clearer for him. I love this firm, the people and the projects; but if my personal career is left in the dust, its all null and void. I work my ass off for this firm, 60+ hours a week sometimes, and do whatever I can to help out. I really hope what I said its taken into action within the next few months.

Let's hope the transition occurs!!

Thanks for listening.

: glad you're making progress ... sounds like you handling the situation in a very mature and responsible manner.

find a firm that will let you do cd's and contract your presentation skills to the current firm......

might have to double dip a bit...

or find a smaller firm that you can work at that will let you do alot of cd's and just take a break from the current firm........

cmdace18 -

i'd love to know how this ends up...i.e if you really get the experience you are craving, or not. as i mentioned above, i am in a similar situation, currently working on my portfolio after getting some other things out of the way, so that i can see what else is out there...and get myself into a firm where i can learn about how buildings get built!

our firm reviews are in a month or two, and i am hoping by the time they come around to have at least gone on some interviews so that i can decide whetehr or not to mention to my reviewer that i am considering a change in order to get more experience.

im glad for you that you realized this after 2 years...im almost at 4 years, im also now married for a year...and feeling like i need some actual building experience before we make the jump to starting a family, etc.

im totally with you on this one, please keep me posted!

-atsama

take the initiative by talking directly with the project architects/job captains and volunteering for CD/CA bits. Start with a specific type of detail, say curtain walls or bathroom partitions, and pick up the redlines for a few weeks on top of the marketing stuff. Most project architects are fairly swamped and will welcome the assistance, just understand that they might take a few days before they come up with an assignment. Make it as painless as possible by listening well and researching the issues with that detail (or else you'll fall into becoming a CAD monkey).

good luck!

HEY! Wait a minute; that's pretty good advice.

wanna know how this ends up? i am still in the SAME position as I was when i started.....that 3-6 month transition? never happened. its sad, i know.

thought i'd bump this thread so a bunch of you can get a good at my expense ... youre welcome.

i'm putting together materials to search for another job. i have accumulated some contacts over the years at other firms since we are always in competition with them; that's where i'll try first. its ugly out there, i know.

oh by the way ... that 20 projects worked on, 100 million won is now 40/250m ... big fucking whoopdy doo.

cmdace18: you may understand this already, but here's what you're likely to face in the marketplace. Your portfolio will reflect the overdevelopment of one extremely large muscle. That will make you very attractive to firms needing that particular skill and experience - they will be willing to pay you fairly, but most likely will want to use you in the same capacity as your current firm to get value for your compensation. Firms that might hire you for work in later phases of the project won't be willing to pay you as well because, quite frankly, it will be difficult for you to be highly productive for quite some time.

In this market, firms need all the talented marketing help they can find. Production help is less needed and experienced production help is easy to find - and inexpensive.

I appreciate how frustrated you are but I find it hard to see how you will be able to improve your situation, on terms you'll find acceptable, by jumping to another firm right now. A lot has changed in the labor market since Feb. 08. You may want to move very cautiously on this.

Good luck. 

With respect, I find your complaints about your situation a little unsettling, given the current level of unemployment in the profession. Most people here would kill to have your 'problems'. Apparently you have a steady, well-paying job. You spend all of your time designing buildings and drawing pretty pictures. 

While I appreciate the source of your frustration, IN CONTEXT, you've got a pretty sweet deal. If I were one of the many talented but unemployed architects viewing this thread, I'd be pretty annoyed - and envious.  

Perhaps you should consider constraining your level of self-absorption, look around at what's happening to your colleagues in the profession and consider just how fortunate you are.

distant - i very much respect your comments.

i am very much so looking at my situation in context - i see first hand how bad it is out there, co-workers getting called into the HR's office friday AM, and escorted out, i know how awful the market is for architecture.

as you can see from this thread, this hasn't been an overnight situation; its been years of trying to figure out how to get myself into the right position.

i have 7 years of school under my belt, 2 degrees and $200k in debt, and i absolutely love architecture; but ive been essentially doing graphic design for FOUR years.

i still don't know how a building it put together and quite frankly its embarrassing to have a masters degree and been in the workplace for this long and have to admitt that.

ive tried and tried to "talk" to various mentors and people with authority and haven't gotten anywhere. i think as opposed to you thinking that i am self-absorbed, well, there comes a time in your life where you realize that instead of being used that you put your foot down and take control of your life. obviously this is the absolute worst time for me to do this, but you need to understand that there are times where i wake up in the morning dreading to go to work. i take personal days once in a while because its that bad.

i never said i would quit, and i never said that i don't appreciate that i have a well paying job; but i didnt go to schol to be a graphic designer.

the MAIN reason for this attitude is this; when the market finally comes around, and there is enough food to feed everyone, do you think my situation at my current job will change? the answer is no, and that is the exact reason why i am putting my resume and info together. i need to have leverage with my firm, and if they see that i have an offer elsewhere, i am 100% sure they will do anything and everything to retain me and keep me happy. trust me, im not selfish, not self absorbed as you can tell from my enteries above from the last 2 years.

one last thought - even the most giving and rational people sometimes realize that when its all said and done, being happy is the most important thing. ive given my heart and soul to this firm, and now its come to a point where i'm upset, disappointed and despressed with my current professional development. i never say no in this firm, and anything and everything i'm asked to do is done, and done well. this give give give attitude has taken a toll on me (and my wife as well), and that's the reason for my most recent posts. i want to be happy and look forward to going to work.

quizzical said it best - overdevelopement of one strong muscle. it's overdevelopement in graphic design nonetheless.

i'm here to get everyone's opinion, and very much appreciate the feedback. the constructive criticism is great, thank you.

i guess i'll add one more post ... i recently wrote down all of my 'tasks' that are done on a daily basis, please tell me if this is what someone 4 years out of an m.arch should be doing;

IT; manage all of the plotters, printers, scanners, servers, email and network drives, coordinate w/ our IT staff (who are based in another city).

Marketing: Powerpoints, renderings (3-D), burning disks, printing labels, presentation boards, photoshop work. we sometimes outsource our renderings, i negotiate the cost and coordinate all of the work.

i'm even called to the front of the office to bring the printer paper to the back of the office because its too heavy.

those are my daily tasks; i'm not a project team.

cmdace18: fair enough - I see where you're coming from. However, do you see why some might find your most recent series of posts as somewhat insensitive to the sensibilities of those here who need and deserve employment?

no, i don't feel anyone would think im being insensitive to those who need employment.

if they read the entire thread and take note that this has been a 2.5 year long journey to push my career in the right direction, they'll understand that this has nothing to do with taking employment for granted and everything to do with wanting to be an architect - not a marketing graphics monkey.

the bottom line is that i have come to a personal breaking point during this horrible time in our profession, and that's the truth.

i get you cmdace18. not only that i agree with you. and you are not being insensitive. you just want to do the job you spent all that time and money training for.

I have no idea how you will be able to get out of where you are without losing employment altogether, which is the real kicker and i guess the reason you are not feeling so happy about things. your office has made you into a specialist and now control your future in ways that should not be allowed in a just world.


That said, unless you want to be unemployed or can get really lucky, it looks like you are stuck. I'd be pissed too. Especially since they promised you more.

its a bad spot your in, i knew a few people like that, but they seemed happy go lucky about their situation. Ive been working for 4 different firms since 2006, and ive worked at the construction site, ive been lucky,i know most of my collegues with the same years in this profession, that dont have the so called technical aspect down, trust me you have to read books, regarding not only construction details but contracts, getting down to the nitti gritty as they say, I learned more by watching what was going on around me. There are things you won't learn in the office, i recommend you go work for a contractor or a small firm where you can grind your teeth for a while, I went from a very well known corporate firm (everyone there was a licensed architect unheard of these days), then from there i went to a small firm for a half year, where i busted my ass doing everything from preliminary to construction documents, building code, dealing with the jurisdiction, you name it, learned so much, then i went back to Corporate office, well known I didnt realize how much i had learned until i got to that place. I was basically doing all the detail work, teaching people with more years than i had but they spent it all at the same big corp office.

If you insist on staying there, read books, read code, read contract documents, practice on your own because very few people have the time to teach others or patience, Don't depend on them to teach you go talk to the "technical" guys. Its good that your concerned about being well rounded, because trust me vicepresidents that dont know there stuff lose any credit their title gives them Really fast.

In retrospect its a good thing you have a job right now.

oh, cmdace18, you keep me awake at night....
(= you seem to use too much "you need to understand", "people have to read the whole thread")
seriously, your own decisions are your problem, like you should have quit this firm in better times, you maybe shouldn't have spent 200 k on school, really....

all this aside, there are younger, probably more knowledgeable, talented, hungrier people people out there coming out of school every year and needing to pay back their own 200k school debt that I am probably going to sympathize more with right now.

they may never be given the well rounded experience needed to become an architect.
you're not being insensitive, we are the ones being insensitive to your problems.

liveload;

great advice. i have recently obtained some reading material from a colleague who's licensed and intend on diving into the material. i have always thought about going into the construction side to get the hands on approach to architecture. what was your exact role on-sites? when you applied for the job, what angle did you take? i was thinking that maybe i'd be an apprentice to an on-site project manager.

c.k;

"your own decisions are your problem"... i'm not looking to for any sympathy at all, but that's a pretty bold statement. my decisions were based off of promises from my boss. i've built a pretty strong relationship with them, but i guess my decision to trust them was the wrong decision to make, as you suggest. so c.k. if you were in my shoes, what would you do?

cmdace I was in your shoes, I left.
If I had stayed, I'd still be employed, but I have no regrets because I learned a lot more in the second firm in a much shorter span of time.
the best advice you ever got (someone said that above) was stay, but offer to help a busy PA on top of your marketing duties and learn something this way.

c.k.; sounds like you've been there done that; when you looked for another job, how did you put your portfolio together when all you had was just marketing images? (renderings, colored floor plans, 3D, etc) as quizzical said, the firm hiring will look at the portfolio and either want to hire me for the same position; i just want them to see the talent, and hire me for potential. i know, it will be tough. i am absolutely willing to take a pay-cut knowing that i am "green" towards the CD aspect of architecture.

I knew revit?

bingo, might be my way out...

last week i was chosen attend a 3 day revit training class. so i've just recently started on that. i've done a few tutorials, and am slowly learning that program. i'll need to become proficient in it for me to fully market myself with revit, which will take some time.

looks like you had an ace in the hold my friend.

*hole

*hole?

the last sentence, i meant to say "looks like you had an ace in the hole my friend" .... not hold.

see, the'll teach you revit so that means your role may be changing after all at this firm, otherwise they wouldn't send you to do training?


well, you should learn revit regardless, but I am not advising you to leave, because revit alone isn't going to cut it in this market.
I'd still say pester the technical people to let you draft their detail sketches.

well ... i'm always looking at the situation from the firm's point of view ... yes, my role "might" be changing ... but from my experience the last few years, its very possible that i'm learning the program to help support my co-workers who also attended the class from an IT standpoint. no one in the firm knows revit inside/out ... so i assume i would be their support while continuing on marketing.

its absoutely a great thing that i was involved in that class, and helps set the stage for me to be involved in projects using revit. i really hope that's the case. although, i guess i've been beaten up with "hope" over the last few years, and those promises have come up empty, which is why i'm so pessimistic about this new potential opportunity.

regardless of how they use me, learning revit is a fantastic thing.

I think revit is great for "green" people because you'll have a better understanding of the big picture and how that relates to the parts. It changes the whole workflow in a team and even if they rely on you for support, it can't be IT support, you'll have to understand the project and this will really help you.

thanks for bumping this thread. i too, am still in the same position i was bitching about two years ago on this very thread! if anything, this has given me an extra push to get up and do something about it. although, i feel a tiny bit better, cmdace18 knowing that i am not the only one who couldnt leave her relatively decent job in this climate.
and, i am still VERY thankful to be employed. but, still no closer to working on CDs.
re: revit, i just spent some time begging the head of my group to give us some REAL revit training and not these 1 hr "let's show you waht it can do" sessions we have had like 3 times now. argh.

CD's are the most mindless boring thing ever... Be glad you are in the position you are in, it sounds way better than what most "architects" do.

cmdace18 I totally understand where you are coming from. I was in a similar position for a while at the office I worked at (before getting the pink slip). It's totally frustrating to put in all the effort at the beginning of the project and then not see it all the way through. I also usually found that once the project got handed off to the team that would be working on it, all of the care and attention I had put into the schematic design was usually tossed out in favor of something more conventional, which is really a nice way of saying something they had already built before.

I had to do the same thing as you, have the sit down talk with the bosses and explain what I was hoping to get out of the position. Luckily they were a little more responsive than what it sounds like you are dealing with. I had a good Project Manager (despite the many other flaws in the office) so things turned out well.

What I can say helped for me was offering to train other members of the staff on graphics. A large reason I got the graphic work was because I was one of the only people in the office who know how to use Photoshop, Illustrator... etc. Periodically I would have lunch sessions where I taught whoever wanted to come how to use the graphic software so that more people in the office became proficient at it. Surely there will be a few others in the office who are graphically competent which would allow you to disperse your work amongst others while assuming the CD work that gets displaced from them. I would imagine that there are people in the office who are complaining about the exact opposite thing you are (because like mssb mentioned, CD's can be quite tedious) that would be more than happy to trade some CD time for some Design time.

It's just a matter of finding people around the office who can do the work and then demonstrating to the higher ups what those people are capable of.

Another thing you can do to start learning the CD process on your own is to just open some of the old projects your office has done, either the printed set or in Autocad (or whatever you are using). Most offices tend to "borrow" things from old projects anyway, so looking through some of the previous work will give you an idea of the level of detail and kinds of drawings that go into the final set. To be perfectly honest it's probably not much different, process wise, than the SD work you are already doing. The biggest thing is just learning the detail aspect, which really takes many, many years to learn regardless.

cmdace- I work in a very similar position at a corporate firm but am surprised at your day-to-day tasks compared to my own. 2 questions:

1. I wouldn't expect a corporate firm to have a designer running around doing IT stuff- do they not have an IT dept? that would indeed be frustrating.

2. are you getting real design experience? it sounded like you were in your older posts- but couldnt tell if you still are. I am your mirror image in terms of making "pretty pictures". I do the same stuff you were describing in your old posts- modeling, rendering, photoshop, presentations, always the very initial phases of a job and almost always for marketing-- and i always get to design. (which makes any other suppporing work i do for the project well worth it) I get to handle the program and lay it out and then study the massing, skin, etc. And i freaking love it.

As much as i love my job and love what i do on a day to day basis- I 100% agree with you and admit to not knowing how a building goes together in the details. Its embarrasing but true. I know neither of us are idiots and people might think that when we admit that to people, but I can absolutely inversely say that I have friends who have worked only in CD's and couldn't layout the planning /design/ create something beautiful because theyve never done it in the professional world. So just remember - it can go both ways.

In my experience ive come to 2 general conclusions:
Large firm- means you might end up getting stuck on one side of the architecture phases.
Small firm- means you might be working on monotonous building types your entire career their.

I personally thrive in the large. (i was bored out of my mind at the small firm i briefly worked for)...but it may not be for everyone...

Cherith Cutestory;

thanks for posting. when i sat down with my principal at my very first meeting, he gave me 3 options that would help my "transition" into CDs and ease my workload on marketing - one of which was to train others, just as you say.

here are a few problems that i've run into under that scenario;

1. as most of you know in the profession, these "marketing" deadlines last about 1 week or less from notification to the interview. this means that people who are just learning the software lag behind and cannot do the core production that is needed in the time allowed. it actually makes more work for me in the end because as they say "if you want it done right, do it yourself". we absolutely have a few people in the office that have photoshop skils, etc, and they are used here and there ... but when it comes to these 1 week charrettes, im the go to person.

2. the REAL reason why training others doesn't work is that if someone else in the office gets the graphic experience, they are then pulled off their project team, and that project suffers. its a snowball effect in the office no matter who helps me, since their own deadlines are missed, and the PMs go nuts, and we lose the confidence of our clients for not meeting milestones. i'm the only know not on a team, and its pretty much in my hands.

to your last point, "The biggest thing is just learning the detail aspect, which really takes many, many years to learn regardless" .... this is the EXACT reason why my transition needs to take place NOW ... i'm 4 years into my professional career, and its time.

pmarch;

1. we are a corporate firm with our headquarters in a different city. i'm pretty much the person that speaks to our IT department (in the other city) on a daily basis with regards to email, server, printer, etc questions. when there is an issue in our office, people come to me since i've been proactive in trying to help, but its bit me in the ass so to speak. ive just BS'd my way, and learned my way around the IT side of the firm, and after 4 years, its assumed that i'm the IT guy. when the printer breaks, or email is down, or whatever, who do they run to? me.

2. am i getting real design experience? sorta. i work directly with the principal (and other "official" designers) in the firm during the design charrette, and throw in my ideas and suggestions, but they are the one actually designing. to say that i come up with the brilliant ideas on my own, that's usually not the case since the principal likes to have his pulse on the project and image, since he will be selling/speaking to it in the interview.

i love designing, and in a perfect work, i would be a designer for the rest of my life. but i'm also realistic. if i want to pass my ARE, and speak intelligent and articulate about architecture, i NEED construction document experience. books and studying will certainly help, but nothing beats real world experience.

Well if it's the ARE you are studying for, you might be better off NOT having the experience. The ARE makes it pretty clear up front that the exam largely does not test real-world knowledge. It's largely book material that in a normal office setting would either be irrelevant or a non-issue. Without having the experience of office production you would be able to approach the ARE as the ARE, not as a typical office project.

The training, it's not perfect. I ran into the same problems. Quick deadlines means you are more likely to be the person to do the job because they don't have time to waste with someone that is inexperienced. At some point, though, they have to realize that you won't be working for them forever. At my old office (I worked there twice), when I left the first time they literally didn't know what to do. I found out from friends that they were recycling a lot of the material I had prepared for previous proposals because they had become dependent on what I did and didn't have anyone else that was either capable or meet their standards. Over time I think a people few grew into the position and once I came back they had done a good job of making sure there was always more than one person capable of doing ANY job in the office.

That's probably the most important point to stress is that right now, although things are good, they are too reliant on one person to do a pretty important job in the office. They would never rely on one person to write all the specifications for every project, or if they did have one "designated" spec. writer there probably would be at least a few others skilled enough to step in as needed.