Without california, the US economy would be 20% smaller.
Agreed, but most of the CA economy could be conducted elsewhere in the USA. Business like Hollywood and Silicon Valley could happen anywhere. Outside of the citrus crop, most of the agriculture could be done elsewhere too. We just might have to get used to having "seasonal" veggies instead of the year round salad bar we enjoy today.
By no means am I saying we should just abandon California, but having a state population in excess of the entire country of Canada seems a bit extreme. Population growth has lead to the sprawl, which is currently burning up.
but most of the CA economy could be conducted elsewhere in the USA
not!
there is a reason why the film industry moved from NYC to Hollywood. the california experience can't be replicated. If canada was just as beautiful (those be fighting words), just as warm, and just as sunny, it's population would be bigger. There are many cities in the world that have populations bigger then canada - mexico city, or lagos for example.
LA would be much worse if they moved it to some safer place. Move it north along the coast, the weather starts to suck. Move it inland, you no longer have the beach culture, and the weather starts to suck in a different way. If you took everyone in LA and moved them to Denver or Vegas or Phoenix or Winnipeg, that wouldn't make those cities cool.
it doesn't matter where they roll the camera. as long as deals are made here and the e biz lawyers reside in pacific palisades and malibu, los angeles is the center for the industry.
but as far as i know, manufacturing is the biggest engine of los angeles economy not hollywood. correct me if i am wrong or the situation is changed since i last checked.
Here's the top major industries in Southern California:
1. Business and professional management services
2. Health services/bio-med
3. Tourism
4. Direct International Trade
5. Wholesale Trade
6. Technology (Includes computer manufacturing, communications equipment, electronic components, aircraft and parts, missiles and space vehicles, search and navigation equipment, measuring and controlling instruments, and computer software development)
7. Motion Picture/TV Production
8. Financial Services
I see tourism and trade being tied to location. Everything else is negotiable.
Not really sure why it starts such a revolt to suggest in the face of a natural disaster that maybe we should rethink where we decide to build? After Katrina I asked the same of New Orleans. Sure, maintain a city, but certinaly not the population it had previously. Because SoCal is "beautiful" and is "cool" we should maintain a metroplex of 20 million people...and battle annual fires? Was the area any less cool in 1950 when 3 million people lived there?
struck me as interesting. While a massive fire is a different beast than a hurricane, there were evacuations for both Souther Cal and New Orleans. Obviously, when this is all said and done, there will have been tremendous damage done... thousands of homes lost and billions of dollars in damage, but the loss of life will have been relatively low considering how wide the area in question is, and how quickly the fires spread.
At the risk of being jumped on... I wonder why the response to this disaster has been so much better in SoCal than in New Orleans. Is it because we learned a lot from NO? Is it because SoCal is wealthy? Is it cause SoCal is white? How many katrina evacuees in the super dome had clowns, guitarists, and play things for the kids as they have in qualcomm stadium right now?
Lletdown, I think much of the response has to do with the fact that people learned from Katrina, and not the demographics. But, there is a part of me that say, and I'm sure you will all crucify me, that the response has also been greater because these people contributed to society through taxes and such, where the majority of those in New Orleans were on welfare.
woah snap sarah... you might get crucified for that one... and im sorry to say, but rightfully so.
First of all, to make the generalization that the majority of people left in NO were on welfare might or might not be true, but the idea that people on welfare contribute more or less to 'society' is a bit of a loaded value judgment which im guessing your in no position to make.
im with mdler on this one
US government seems content with the precedent it continues to set... that is, you scratch our back, we'll scratch yours... the more you 'contribute' to the federal system, the more you get out. thats pretty much the exact opposite of how it should work
that being said, im very pleased to see how well this whole thing has been treated... seems like the state of California is much, much more confidently and competently managed that Louisiana
I didn't mean contribute to society in any other way than through tax dollars. And I know it was a broad generalization, but I felt it was fairly accurate. I agree that the back-scratching comment is correct, but I'm not sure why it should be the opposite; could be that I am just young, poor, and stingy with my hard earned money. Thats another thread though.
I just don't think its fair to break it into a Race game.
mcdonalds, inn-n-out, bob's bigboy were all founded in tinsel town (ok, downey for micky dees)- LA is a city of great burgers that are distinct from any other cities attempts. typical LA burger has chili, cheese, and pickles to start with. you can get fried eggs, sausage and more too.
the rest of LA cuisine is from immigrants and is the closest to authentic I've ever found in the US cause their populations are so big. 'california' cuisine started in the bay area with alice waters, though there were a few socal innovators too.
SD cuisine = MREs? not a foodie place and they don't have good burgers (or tacos) either.
wake up, people.. clearly anderson cooper set the fires
Earlier in the broadcast Cooper also plugged CNN’s documentary:
“At the top of the next hour, as I said, the big picture. These fires are really a piece of it. Fire, drought, global warming, climate change, deforestation, it is all connected, tonight, 9:00 p.m. Eastern…‘Planet in Peril’ starts in just 30 minutes.”
there are so many hoping it's all about global warming
but rational people are getting through on this one:
'Alan Zarembo’s story in the Washington Spokesman-Review that was attributed to the Los Angeles Times asked a similar question to Cooper’s broadcast, “Are the massive fires burning across Southern California a product of global warming?”
But, Zarembo came up with a much different answer:
“Scientists said it would be difficult to make that case, given the combustible mix of drought and wind that has plagued the region for centuries or more,” said the reporter.
“Southern California is already perfect for wildfire, and the small changes from global warming are unlikely to make it much worse at this time.”
A climate scientist at the University of California, Merced, told Zarembo that these wildfires are the result of two “staples of the region's climatic history,” meaning “strong Santa Ana winds” and “a drought that turned much of the hillsides to bone-dry kindling.”
"Neither can be attributed to climate change," said the UC Merced professor.'
They are saying that the estimate of losses of just homes in San Diego County is more than $1 billion. With just 1500 homes lost, those must have been some expensive homes!
After reading the last few posts, now I really want a cheeseburger.
the governments response to this doesnt piss me off as much as their response to the landslides in La Jolla a few weeks ago....very wealtthy republican donors houses start to slide and gdub calls it a disaster area...good thing they werent poor and black
What's everyone's opinions on controlled fires? Does anyone think this practice could have helped in this particular instance? The Native Americans are said to have done such a thing (at least on the East Coast) long before Jamestown was ever founded.
As far as the LaJolla landlslide is concerned, I agree it's not a disaster... unless your donors lose their checkbooks when the dirt swallows the vast majority of their house.
actually.. I don't even think drought was the main trigger here either.... If you want to blame something, blame public opposition to controlled burn policies to clear undergrowth combined with urban sprawl. It's a natural balancing process... the thicker you allow SoCal's fire ecology vegetation to get (by not allowing it to burn in a controlled manner, in smaller brush fires) the more fuel you have for an even larger burn. When you neglect the health of the canopy and undergrowth for too long, you have enough fuel for a mega-burn, like the one we're seeing now. In our part of this country (SoCal), it's kind of that simple. We're a fire ecology, and in a fire ecology "save the trees" does not necessarily equate to a social good.
YAY Urbanist!!! I totally agree with you. I've never understood why there is so much opposition to this practice. Come on... it helps the trees grow for crying out loud.
tunamelt, I think people really unite against controlled burns when the places where they live get close to the brush.. which creates yet another vicious cycle: the more sprawl (cul-de-sac fingers into scrubland), the more opposition there is to controlled burn, the thicker the encircling vegetation, the greater the fire threat to the sprawled housing, in turn leading to still more opposition to controlled burns... it's really kind of sad, in a suicidal kind of way. I suspect that people will only start learning the right lessons when the insurers start witholding fire coverage from new development.
goats are more practical and less dangerous (unless you're a troll) then controlled fires in urbanized areas. Most controlled burn regulations require no buildings near by - so this would make burns impossible everywhere but some public lands far, far away from the residential hill sides.
my friend michelle owns 'clark' the famous goat of silverlake - he would love to clear your hillside. also goat droppings roll everywhere. fire or goat doodoo? goat doodoo or fire?
hehe antisthenes.. nice pitch in that link:
"Goats have been called the only environmentally friendly, solar-powered, self-propelled weed eaters that also produce no fossil fuels, noise pollution, or fire hazards. With the unique ability to convert overgrown and potentially fire-hazardous grass, weeds, and brush into pastoral landscapes simply by peacefully eating the fuel, goats might be an alternative to the preferred method of controlled burns."
I remember hearing that a herd of goats was released into the Boundary Wayers region in the 1970's to clean up all the crap the fishermen/campers used to leave behind. It was a huge success. The region is absolutely gorgeous and is quite pristine.
SoCal FIRE thread
Agreed, but most of the CA economy could be conducted elsewhere in the USA. Business like Hollywood and Silicon Valley could happen anywhere. Outside of the citrus crop, most of the agriculture could be done elsewhere too. We just might have to get used to having "seasonal" veggies instead of the year round salad bar we enjoy today.
By no means am I saying we should just abandon California, but having a state population in excess of the entire country of Canada seems a bit extreme. Population growth has lead to the sprawl, which is currently burning up.
So what do you propose?
not!
there is a reason why the film industry moved from NYC to Hollywood. the california experience can't be replicated. If canada was just as beautiful (those be fighting words), just as warm, and just as sunny, it's population would be bigger. There are many cities in the world that have populations bigger then canada - mexico city, or lagos for example.
treekiller
the film industry is moving to Canadastan
LA would be much worse if they moved it to some safer place. Move it north along the coast, the weather starts to suck. Move it inland, you no longer have the beach culture, and the weather starts to suck in a different way. If you took everyone in LA and moved them to Denver or Vegas or Phoenix or Winnipeg, that wouldn't make those cities cool.
it doesn't matter where they roll the camera. as long as deals are made here and the e biz lawyers reside in pacific palisades and malibu, los angeles is the center for the industry.
but as far as i know, manufacturing is the biggest engine of los angeles economy not hollywood. correct me if i am wrong or the situation is changed since i last checked.
Here's the top major industries in Southern California:
1. Business and professional management services
2. Health services/bio-med
3. Tourism
4. Direct International Trade
5. Wholesale Trade
6. Technology (Includes computer manufacturing, communications equipment, electronic components, aircraft and parts, missiles and space vehicles, search and navigation equipment, measuring and controlling instruments, and computer software development)
7. Motion Picture/TV Production
8. Financial Services
I see tourism and trade being tied to location. Everything else is negotiable.
Not really sure why it starts such a revolt to suggest in the face of a natural disaster that maybe we should rethink where we decide to build? After Katrina I asked the same of New Orleans. Sure, maintain a city, but certinaly not the population it had previously. Because SoCal is "beautiful" and is "cool" we should maintain a metroplex of 20 million people...and battle annual fires? Was the area any less cool in 1950 when 3 million people lived there?
struck me as interesting. While a massive fire is a different beast than a hurricane, there were evacuations for both Souther Cal and New Orleans. Obviously, when this is all said and done, there will have been tremendous damage done... thousands of homes lost and billions of dollars in damage, but the loss of life will have been relatively low considering how wide the area in question is, and how quickly the fires spread.
At the risk of being jumped on... I wonder why the response to this disaster has been so much better in SoCal than in New Orleans. Is it because we learned a lot from NO? Is it because SoCal is wealthy? Is it cause SoCal is white? How many katrina evacuees in the super dome had clowns, guitarists, and play things for the kids as they have in qualcomm stadium right now?
apu
the film industry is a direct result of climate
Lletdown, I think much of the response has to do with the fact that people learned from Katrina, and not the demographics. But, there is a part of me that say, and I'm sure you will all crucify me, that the response has also been greater because these people contributed to society through taxes and such, where the majority of those in New Orleans were on welfare.
NEW ORLEANS = POOR BLACK FOLK
SAN DIEGO and MALIBU = RICH WHITE FOLK
woah snap sarah... you might get crucified for that one... and im sorry to say, but rightfully so.
First of all, to make the generalization that the majority of people left in NO were on welfare might or might not be true, but the idea that people on welfare contribute more or less to 'society' is a bit of a loaded value judgment which im guessing your in no position to make.
im with mdler on this one
US government seems content with the precedent it continues to set... that is, you scratch our back, we'll scratch yours... the more you 'contribute' to the federal system, the more you get out. thats pretty much the exact opposite of how it should work
that being said, im very pleased to see how well this whole thing has been treated... seems like the state of California is much, much more confidently and competently managed that Louisiana
new orleans = gumbo, jambalaya, po-boys and jazz.
los angeles = hamburgers, beach boys and the doors.
the #2 is tied to local university system along with the local fortune 500 company that invented HMOs
and california had similar fire levels in 2003, smaller fires every year. so the state government learns how to react.
that's why - it's not a race thing. even though it's seems a lot of people want it to be (or global warming, like harry reid!?!)
I didn't mean contribute to society in any other way than through tax dollars. And I know it was a broad generalization, but I felt it was fairly accurate. I agree that the back-scratching comment is correct, but I'm not sure why it should be the opposite; could be that I am just young, poor, and stingy with my hard earned money. Thats another thread though.
I just don't think its fair to break it into a Race game.
And did the hamburger really come from CA?
mcdonalds, inn-n-out, bob's bigboy were all founded in tinsel town (ok, downey for micky dees)- LA is a city of great burgers that are distinct from any other cities attempts. typical LA burger has chili, cheese, and pickles to start with. you can get fried eggs, sausage and more too.
the rest of LA cuisine is from immigrants and is the closest to authentic I've ever found in the US cause their populations are so big. 'california' cuisine started in the bay area with alice waters, though there were a few socal innovators too.
SD cuisine = MREs? not a foodie place and they don't have good burgers (or tacos) either.
wake up, people.. clearly anderson cooper set the fires
Earlier in the broadcast Cooper also plugged CNN’s documentary:
“At the top of the next hour, as I said, the big picture. These fires are really a piece of it. Fire, drought, global warming, climate change, deforestation, it is all connected, tonight, 9:00 p.m. Eastern…‘Planet in Peril’ starts in just 30 minutes.”
http://www.businessandmedia.org/articles/2007/20071024110403.aspx
there are so many hoping it's all about global warming
but rational people are getting through on this one:
'Alan Zarembo’s story in the Washington Spokesman-Review that was attributed to the Los Angeles Times asked a similar question to Cooper’s broadcast, “Are the massive fires burning across Southern California a product of global warming?”
But, Zarembo came up with a much different answer:
“Scientists said it would be difficult to make that case, given the combustible mix of drought and wind that has plagued the region for centuries or more,” said the reporter.
“Southern California is already perfect for wildfire, and the small changes from global warming are unlikely to make it much worse at this time.”
A climate scientist at the University of California, Merced, told Zarembo that these wildfires are the result of two “staples of the region's climatic history,” meaning “strong Santa Ana winds” and “a drought that turned much of the hillsides to bone-dry kindling.”
"Neither can be attributed to climate change," said the UC Merced professor.'
maybe all of this will start a new climate change theory: global spontaneous combustion
its real people!!!
im getting bored with global warming... i hope something else distracts us soon
They are saying that the estimate of losses of just homes in San Diego County is more than $1 billion. With just 1500 homes lost, those must have been some expensive homes!
After reading the last few posts, now I really want a cheeseburger.
I'm glad you still under blue sky, DubK (or are you?).
In my world Tempe, AZ has the best burger.
http://www.heartattackgrill.com/
that might be the b(igg)est, but not the original.
I'm hoping that a theory of global jello wrestling to emerge as part of intelligent design.
SoCal seems to be the best prepared place in the world for catastrophes, except that LAPD doesn't practice swarming as much as the NYPD.
My arteries are screaming just looking at that thing Aqua.
I'll vote for the theory that the arsonists are those with bad mortgage/loan/real estate deals that need a quick out and will do anything to get it.
the governments response to this doesnt piss me off as much as their response to the landslides in La Jolla a few weeks ago....very wealtthy republican donors houses start to slide and gdub calls it a disaster area...good thing they werent poor and black
broken water pipes cause more landslides then the rain in socal...
What's everyone's opinions on controlled fires? Does anyone think this practice could have helped in this particular instance? The Native Americans are said to have done such a thing (at least on the East Coast) long before Jamestown was ever founded.
As far as the LaJolla landlslide is concerned, I agree it's not a disaster... unless your donors lose their checkbooks when the dirt swallows the vast majority of their house.
actually.. I don't even think drought was the main trigger here either.... If you want to blame something, blame public opposition to controlled burn policies to clear undergrowth combined with urban sprawl. It's a natural balancing process... the thicker you allow SoCal's fire ecology vegetation to get (by not allowing it to burn in a controlled manner, in smaller brush fires) the more fuel you have for an even larger burn. When you neglect the health of the canopy and undergrowth for too long, you have enough fuel for a mega-burn, like the one we're seeing now. In our part of this country (SoCal), it's kind of that simple. We're a fire ecology, and in a fire ecology "save the trees" does not necessarily equate to a social good.
YAY Urbanist!!! I totally agree with you. I've never understood why there is so much opposition to this practice. Come on... it helps the trees grow for crying out loud.
goats
San Mateo county uses goats.. kinda works too, I guess.. San Diego used to let cattle graze everywhere, but that was in the '70s and '80s I think
the reason that they dont use goats much in LA is because people bitch about the goats eating their prized bouganvilla, etc....
tunamelt, I think people really unite against controlled burns when the places where they live get close to the brush.. which creates yet another vicious cycle: the more sprawl (cul-de-sac fingers into scrubland), the more opposition there is to controlled burn, the thicker the encircling vegetation, the greater the fire threat to the sprawled housing, in turn leading to still more opposition to controlled burns... it's really kind of sad, in a suicidal kind of way. I suspect that people will only start learning the right lessons when the insurers start witholding fire coverage from new development.
I think having public goats everywhere would be really cool
and weed
goats are more practical and less dangerous (unless you're a troll) then controlled fires in urbanized areas. Most controlled burn regulations require no buildings near by - so this would make burns impossible everywhere but some public lands far, far away from the residential hill sides.
my friend michelle owns 'clark' the famous goat of silverlake - he would love to clear your hillside. also goat droppings roll everywhere. fire or goat doodoo? goat doodoo or fire?
that's it.. in this meme, I'm going to photoshop some goats and start surreptitiously dropping them into my renderings. we'll see if anybody notices
you have RPC goat?
k.. this one's kinda funky looking.. but here he is, your state-of-the-art brushfire prevention solution:
got milk?
hehe antisthenes.. nice pitch in that link:
"Goats have been called the only environmentally friendly, solar-powered, self-propelled weed eaters that also produce no fossil fuels, noise pollution, or fire hazards. With the unique ability to convert overgrown and potentially fire-hazardous grass, weeds, and brush into pastoral landscapes simply by peacefully eating the fuel, goats might be an alternative to the preferred method of controlled burns."
word
I remember hearing that a herd of goats was released into the Boundary Wayers region in the 1970's to clean up all the crap the fishermen/campers used to leave behind. It was a huge success. The region is absolutely gorgeous and is quite pristine.
pretty soon the homeless in LA will be eating this.........
Do I even want to know what that is?
goat head soup
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