90% of the posts on here represents the ignorance towards Iran, Middle East and the culture.
Everyone assumes that other cultures behave the same way and prioritize the same things as westerners (ie Americans) do. However, I don't blame you because it's like a bird in a cage. You can't understand or know what's outside your cage. Most, if not all, of the statements are one-sided, biased and partial. In other words, useless.
well as for me, the reason i created this thread was to learn more for myself. i am not afraid of being wrong or "ignorant" as i've never even been to the middle east. i don't consider myself to be biased because i've been extremely critical of the US in the past both on and off of archinect. so if anyone wants to enlighten me then i'm waiting...
I'm not exactly comfortable with presuming to pick up the title of "enlightener," but I could elaborate on a point or two that I started above.
take for example ahmedinejad's call to "wipe israel from the map," which is one of the most frequently sited points when casting him in the "monster" role, often while implicating the rest of the iranian people. the wikipedia entry concerning this is a concise summary of the issue-- note in particular the section on translation:
based on this additional information (which must be sought, as the media has never picked it up) at the very least-- at the most cautious-- we could allow that it is a viable possibility that what he meant was only the successful dismantling of the current israeli government and policies. we should at least allow that as a possibility for his intentions, and based on the information at hand, maybe even a likely one. now contrast that with how, without flinching, without even a passing acknowledgement of the translational ambiguities, the absolute worst possible interpretation gets echoed, over, and over, everywhere, especially from people in power and media commentators. "ahmadinejad called for a genocide against the people of israel". it's established fact, on the books. why?
point by point, it is a similar game: blanket iran with the worst possible interpretations-- it's leaders, it's motives, it's actions, it's people, it's culture. what does it lead to? our ongoing project of dehumanizing of the other. right now it is iran's turn, so we end up with things like this being published in the ohio dispatch:
and this link, a little down the page, has the response from the editor of the editorials page of that paper. note the utilization of ahmedinejad's "call to genocide" in their redirection of the nazi-esque accusation:
and the big question, why is it iran's turn? which I won't even attempt to deal with now... I have a personal stake in all of this, and these indicators of a climate shift toward the unchecked legitimacy of hate-mongering toward iran threatens people I care about. and yeah, it scares me.
thank you subtect. this is the type of dialogue i was hoping to attract.
my earlier response to archmed's remarks was i'll admit rambling and inarticulate, though i was attempting to direct my arguement on the positives of how Ahmadinejad's could benefit the US. i've been studying Ahmadinejad a bit for some time and i know the media has been twisting his words around. i don't support a war with iran nor do i think were on the verge of one: i feel like washington is using this rhetoric to build a precedent for UN sanctions. although yes, i can see why it would be frightening for someone on the other side. luckily we do live in a situation where the double talk can be exposed, even if the exposure doesn't take on the main stream hype.
Perhaps i am in a particularly liberal pocket here in Chicago but i really see no REAL indications that a war with Iran is even a remote possibility. If one thinks about this logistically, 1) were broke and have already diverted billions, possibly trillions of dollars away from domestic issues 2) our millitary is already overextended and weakened by lengthy tours and lowered recruiting standards 3) there is little to no public support for another war outside of the nutty neo-conservatives who seem to only exist in news papers these days and (perhaps most importantly) 4) NO party has the political capital to convince ANYONE a war is necessary. Even if a Republican were to be elected in the next election, they would find it virtually impossible to convince Democrats to go along with funding another invasion. And if a Democrat is elected, they would have likely been elected on a platform of virtually reversing the last 8 years of foreign policy decisions which would in no way include a new war with iran.
things could change... i guess iran could initiate a war but that makes no sense as they would have everything to lose and very very little to gain by doing so.
Le bossman, I was unfair to you as well and I apologize for that. See, in America we all grew up hearing one side of the story and all other versions were deemed "unpatriotic" or even "anti-Semitic". I spend a significant amount of time in both the Middle East and the United States and had the pleasure to enter into the lives of both places. In the end of the day, the stories heard in America were not adding up in the least. There was a much different, deeper, and contrary reality on the ground -- and that reality is that you are dealing with nations that were independent for less than a century that were still in the middle of discovering their own identities. And consequently (despite the incessant demonization and dehumanization we hear in the American press), we are dealing with a people who are very similar to us -- they are a people who go through all the day-to-day concerns, the personal victories, the growing pains of reality, and the celebration of life and love in a similar manner to us.
Many people failt to put their own stereotypes and antipathies into perspective. For example, everyone seems to think that when anti-Semitism is spewed there is no moral equivalent. However, what makes you believe that the cartoon that was posted on this thread that read "asshtollah"or whatever is equally offensive and downright bigoted? Let's see, a stereotypical Middle Easterner with a beard, big nose, thick eyebrows, and a turban that is represented as an extremist. That is equally as offensive as the stereotypes we hear against Jewish people.
Let's not forget some of the downright bigoted words of Israeli state leaders that many of you conveniently fail to remember.
Here are some:
"There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our enemies not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy." Israeli president Moshe Katsav. The Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001
"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more".... Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000
"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.
"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"
Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet. "We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters" Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion's special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960. From "The Arabs in Israel" by Sabri Jiryas.
"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.
"In our country there is room only for the Jews. We shall say to the Arabs: Get out! If they don't agree, if they resist, we shall drive them out by force."
--Professor Ben-Zion Dinur Israel's First Minister of Education, 1954 from History of the Haganah
"The very point of Labor's Zionist program is to have as much land as possible and as few Arabs as possible!" --Yitzhak Navon ("moderate" ex-Israeli president and a leading labor party politician.) Cited on p.179 of Nur Masalha's A Land without a People who cites Bernard Avishai's The Tragedy of Zionism 1985 p.340
"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." --Rabbi Ya'acov Perin in his eulogy at the funeral of mass murderer Dr. Baruch Goldstein.
"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist." -- Golda Meir Statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.
"I don't sign orders to destroy the houses of Jews, only of Arabs,"-- Haim Miller, deputy mayor of Jerusalem and acting mayor in Olmert's absence, quoted in Yediot Aharonot, Feb. 7, 1998.
" [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.
"The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." " Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
There are much more in case you haven't had enough. How is this any different than the Iranian leader acting bigoted?
the cartoon was a satirical caricature of the actual ayatollah khomeni (sp?), one person, who, no, i don't particularly care for on a personal level and have no problem referring to as an asshole to you or anyone else... but anyway was more a response to the previous postings regarding his chic appearance during that time period and also my affinity for the simpsons. you seem to be suggesting that in posting it i'm somehow stereotyping or classifying all muslims which is, my god, reaching, to put it politely... your looking for a damn fight dude..its venomous, sick.
If it was up to the both of them they would have peace. We are part of the problem with our 90-million strong Bible-belt bible-thumping televangelist constituency. They see the emergence of a Jewish-only Israel as the only way to bring about the prophecy that Jesus would return.
work for idle hands, it wasn't a jab aimed at you. I like the Simpsons but have never seen that episode (stopped keeping up withe series around 2002 or so) and neither has many other people so it could easily be misunderstood. But I can guarantee that there would be a big fuss if an equally combative Ariel Sharon was presented like this. There would be anti-Semitism screeches from every direction.
in a context of abundance and equitable access, difference becomes multiculturalism. in a context of scarcity, difference becomes the basis for asymmetrical access, and the violence that sustains it...
"in a context of abundance and equitable access, difference becomes multiculturalism. in a context of scarcity, difference becomes the basis for asymmetrical access, and the violence that sustains it..."
maybe I'm a fan of jabberwocky-esque packaging, but take a look at the role that water (which is extremely scarce in that area) has played in the conflicts between israel, palestinians, and neighboring countries.
I'm waiting for MohaMad to return to pass out masters degrees to those of us who have no sense of humor. After all G#d has absolutely no sense of humor, by gingle.
try a degree in philosophy. it'll get your preferred language good n' screwy.
archmed:
I'd describe it's faults more as over-compression, than interminable-ness... but which ever. while you might not go for those language games, what you do go for is a lot of heavy-hitting quotations. I wanted to ask: are those from an online source, or from a document or yours, or...?
Archmed:
That's exactly what I'm looking for, prefered language to set me apart and above other people. I think I'll start using terminolgy from the game Bridge, that will make me look expansive, at least my head anyway.
Subtect, yeah those are quotes directly from me. :: Rolls eyes ::
Don't be a buffoon. Just read a little bit and you will run across many of those quotes in the hundreds of books written by western, Israeli, and Arab academics, politicians, and historians.
it's sort of implied by what a quotation is that it didn't come from you, and yes I can see the attributions listed. let me try again: did you sift through your vast library and type in each quote for that posting, or were they cut and pasted from somewhere? if the latter, was it a source online, or a document you have a copy of, etc?
are you currently trying to quit smoking by chance?
The State of Israel often likes to pretend that the interests of the world Jewish community and the interests of the state of Israel are one and the same, and that criticizing one is comparable to criticizing the other. The current showdown with Iran is a rather stark demostration of how false this is; if Israel helps convince the United States to bomb Iran, or bombs Iran itself, then Israeli sponsored bombs will be falling on Iranian Jews.
Heads of Iran's Jewish community 'outraged by the disrespect' shown to the Iranian president during Columbia visit
I was thinking of George Bush Jnr. today and getting quite emotional about it.
Having met and worked with some Iranians and spent a little time over there as a post-grad student some years ago, I'd say the Iranians are just like every other bunch of people, which is pretty obvious... Their political / theocratic regime I strongly disagree with, but of all the people in the world I'd trust to bring some sense to it... the American President is at the very bottom of the list. I've never before seen an international leader with so little knowledge of or respect for other cultures than he's demonstrated. It's shocking and one of the tragedies of our era. Pity the ordinary people of this world who evince so much greater tolerance, humanity and wisdom than their 'leaders'...
Iran's leader speaks
patient: but all i asked for was a fresh bedpan
90% of the posts on here represents the ignorance towards Iran, Middle East and the culture.
Everyone assumes that other cultures behave the same way and prioritize the same things as westerners (ie Americans) do. However, I don't blame you because it's like a bird in a cage. You can't understand or know what's outside your cage. Most, if not all, of the statements are one-sided, biased and partial. In other words, useless.
....and free
well as for me, the reason i created this thread was to learn more for myself. i am not afraid of being wrong or "ignorant" as i've never even been to the middle east. i don't consider myself to be biased because i've been extremely critical of the US in the past both on and off of archinect. so if anyone wants to enlighten me then i'm waiting...
le bossman,
I'm not exactly comfortable with presuming to pick up the title of "enlightener," but I could elaborate on a point or two that I started above.
take for example ahmedinejad's call to "wipe israel from the map," which is one of the most frequently sited points when casting him in the "monster" role, often while implicating the rest of the iranian people. the wikipedia entry concerning this is a concise summary of the issue-- note in particular the section on translation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel
based on this additional information (which must be sought, as the media has never picked it up) at the very least-- at the most cautious-- we could allow that it is a viable possibility that what he meant was only the successful dismantling of the current israeli government and policies. we should at least allow that as a possibility for his intentions, and based on the information at hand, maybe even a likely one. now contrast that with how, without flinching, without even a passing acknowledgement of the translational ambiguities, the absolute worst possible interpretation gets echoed, over, and over, everywhere, especially from people in power and media commentators. "ahmadinejad called for a genocide against the people of israel". it's established fact, on the books. why?
point by point, it is a similar game: blanket iran with the worst possible interpretations-- it's leaders, it's motives, it's actions, it's people, it's culture. what does it lead to? our ongoing project of dehumanizing of the other. right now it is iran's turn, so we end up with things like this being published in the ohio dispatch:
www.crooksandliars.com/2007/09/06/ohio-paper-portrays-iranians-as-cockroaches-fleeing-sewer/
and this link, a little down the page, has the response from the editor of the editorials page of that paper. note the utilization of ahmedinejad's "call to genocide" in their redirection of the nazi-esque accusation:
www.progressohio.org/page/community/post/daveharding/CQPg
and the big question, why is it iran's turn? which I won't even attempt to deal with now... I have a personal stake in all of this, and these indicators of a climate shift toward the unchecked legitimacy of hate-mongering toward iran threatens people I care about. and yeah, it scares me.
thank you subtect. this is the type of dialogue i was hoping to attract.
my earlier response to archmed's remarks was i'll admit rambling and inarticulate, though i was attempting to direct my arguement on the positives of how Ahmadinejad's could benefit the US. i've been studying Ahmadinejad a bit for some time and i know the media has been twisting his words around. i don't support a war with iran nor do i think were on the verge of one: i feel like washington is using this rhetoric to build a precedent for UN sanctions. although yes, i can see why it would be frightening for someone on the other side. luckily we do live in a situation where the double talk can be exposed, even if the exposure doesn't take on the main stream hype.
Perhaps i am in a particularly liberal pocket here in Chicago but i really see no REAL indications that a war with Iran is even a remote possibility. If one thinks about this logistically, 1) were broke and have already diverted billions, possibly trillions of dollars away from domestic issues 2) our millitary is already overextended and weakened by lengthy tours and lowered recruiting standards 3) there is little to no public support for another war outside of the nutty neo-conservatives who seem to only exist in news papers these days and (perhaps most importantly) 4) NO party has the political capital to convince ANYONE a war is necessary. Even if a Republican were to be elected in the next election, they would find it virtually impossible to convince Democrats to go along with funding another invasion. And if a Democrat is elected, they would have likely been elected on a platform of virtually reversing the last 8 years of foreign policy decisions which would in no way include a new war with iran.
things could change... i guess iran could initiate a war but that makes no sense as they would have everything to lose and very very little to gain by doing so.
The line for punch starts in the Standards' Department of Irrationality.
Le bossman, I was unfair to you as well and I apologize for that. See, in America we all grew up hearing one side of the story and all other versions were deemed "unpatriotic" or even "anti-Semitic". I spend a significant amount of time in both the Middle East and the United States and had the pleasure to enter into the lives of both places. In the end of the day, the stories heard in America were not adding up in the least. There was a much different, deeper, and contrary reality on the ground -- and that reality is that you are dealing with nations that were independent for less than a century that were still in the middle of discovering their own identities. And consequently (despite the incessant demonization and dehumanization we hear in the American press), we are dealing with a people who are very similar to us -- they are a people who go through all the day-to-day concerns, the personal victories, the growing pains of reality, and the celebration of life and love in a similar manner to us.
Many people failt to put their own stereotypes and antipathies into perspective. For example, everyone seems to think that when anti-Semitism is spewed there is no moral equivalent. However, what makes you believe that the cartoon that was posted on this thread that read "asshtollah"or whatever is equally offensive and downright bigoted? Let's see, a stereotypical Middle Easterner with a beard, big nose, thick eyebrows, and a turban that is represented as an extremist. That is equally as offensive as the stereotypes we hear against Jewish people.
Let's not forget some of the downright bigoted words of Israeli state leaders that many of you conveniently fail to remember.
Here are some:
"There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our enemies not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy." Israeli president Moshe Katsav. The Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001
"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more".... Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000
"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.
"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"
Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet. "We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters" Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion's special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960. From "The Arabs in Israel" by Sabri Jiryas.
"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.
"In our country there is room only for the Jews. We shall say to the Arabs: Get out! If they don't agree, if they resist, we shall drive them out by force."
--Professor Ben-Zion Dinur Israel's First Minister of Education, 1954 from History of the Haganah
"The very point of Labor's Zionist program is to have as much land as possible and as few Arabs as possible!" --Yitzhak Navon ("moderate" ex-Israeli president and a leading labor party politician.) Cited on p.179 of Nur Masalha's A Land without a People who cites Bernard Avishai's The Tragedy of Zionism 1985 p.340
"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." --Rabbi Ya'acov Perin in his eulogy at the funeral of mass murderer Dr. Baruch Goldstein.
"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist." -- Golda Meir Statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.
"I don't sign orders to destroy the houses of Jews, only of Arabs,"-- Haim Miller, deputy mayor of Jerusalem and acting mayor in Olmert's absence, quoted in Yediot Aharonot, Feb. 7, 1998.
" [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.
"The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." " Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
There are much more in case you haven't had enough. How is this any different than the Iranian leader acting bigoted?
someone with perspective... thank you!
We could just send the Isrelis and the Arabs to another planet while the rest of us get on with it.
the cartoon was a satirical caricature of the actual ayatollah khomeni (sp?), one person, who, no, i don't particularly care for on a personal level and have no problem referring to as an asshole to you or anyone else... but anyway was more a response to the previous postings regarding his chic appearance during that time period and also my affinity for the simpsons. you seem to be suggesting that in posting it i'm somehow stereotyping or classifying all muslims which is, my god, reaching, to put it politely... your looking for a damn fight dude..its venomous, sick.
from whence was ripped:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Bad_Neighbors
If it was up to the both of them they would have peace. We are part of the problem with our 90-million strong Bible-belt bible-thumping televangelist constituency. They see the emergence of a Jewish-only Israel as the only way to bring about the prophecy that Jesus would return.
work for idle hands, it wasn't a jab aimed at you. I like the Simpsons but have never seen that episode (stopped keeping up withe series around 2002 or so) and neither has many other people so it could easily be misunderstood. But I can guarantee that there would be a big fuss if an equally combative Ariel Sharon was presented like this. There would be anti-Semitism screeches from every direction.
Dear Friends,
You need Jesus. Just a reminder.
With Love!
eb
jesus is what got us all in this mess to begin with eb.
in a context of abundance and equitable access, difference becomes multiculturalism. in a context of scarcity, difference becomes the basis for asymmetrical access, and the violence that sustains it...
"in a context of abundance and equitable access, difference becomes multiculturalism. in a context of scarcity, difference becomes the basis for asymmetrical access, and the violence that sustains it..."
LE LE LE LE, LE LE LE LE, LE LE LE LE......
Lot's of fancy jabberwocky...
maybe I'm a fan of jabberwocky-esque packaging, but take a look at the role that water (which is extremely scarce in that area) has played in the conflicts between israel, palestinians, and neighboring countries.
subtect i have a master's degree and i can barely understand that sentance.
I'm waiting for MohaMad to return to pass out masters degrees to those of us who have no sense of humor. After all G#d has absolutely no sense of humor, by gingle.
Subtect, you'll have to excuse me. I'm not one to speak the language of interminable talk.
Excuse me le bossman:
I would like to learn this language of talk.
cf:
try a degree in philosophy. it'll get your preferred language good n' screwy.
archmed:
I'd describe it's faults more as over-compression, than interminable-ness... but which ever. while you might not go for those language games, what you do go for is a lot of heavy-hitting quotations. I wanted to ask: are those from an online source, or from a document or yours, or...?
Archmed:
That's exactly what I'm looking for, prefered language to set me apart and above other people. I think I'll start using terminolgy from the game Bridge, that will make me look expansive, at least my head anyway.
yahtzee!
Subtect, yeah those are quotes directly from me. :: Rolls eyes ::
Don't be a buffoon. Just read a little bit and you will run across many of those quotes in the hundreds of books written by western, Israeli, and Arab academics, politicians, and historians.
archmed:
it's sort of implied by what a quotation is that it didn't come from you, and yes I can see the attributions listed. let me try again: did you sift through your vast library and type in each quote for that posting, or were they cut and pasted from somewhere? if the latter, was it a source online, or a document you have a copy of, etc?
are you currently trying to quit smoking by chance?
The State of Israel often likes to pretend that the interests of the world Jewish community and the interests of the state of Israel are one and the same, and that criticizing one is comparable to criticizing the other. The current showdown with Iran is a rather stark demostration of how false this is; if Israel helps convince the United States to bomb Iran, or bombs Iran itself, then Israeli sponsored bombs will be falling on Iranian Jews.
Heads of Iran's Jewish community 'outraged by the disrespect' shown to the Iranian president during Columbia visit
http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3453810,00.html
Orthodox and Hassidic jews oppose the jewish “state” – which is why not serving in the JDF is an option for only the “religious” in Israel
I was thinking of George Bush Jnr. today and getting quite emotional about it.
Having met and worked with some Iranians and spent a little time over there as a post-grad student some years ago, I'd say the Iranians are just like every other bunch of people, which is pretty obvious... Their political / theocratic regime I strongly disagree with, but of all the people in the world I'd trust to bring some sense to it... the American President is at the very bottom of the list. I've never before seen an international leader with so little knowledge of or respect for other cultures than he's demonstrated. It's shocking and one of the tragedies of our era. Pity the ordinary people of this world who evince so much greater tolerance, humanity and wisdom than their 'leaders'...
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