I'll just post a slightly different perspective from the point of view of a Principal of a small practice that is currently interviewing prospective architects. Could it possibly be that the "used car salesman"-like employer was just very busy the day of your interview and rushed through the offer? This may explain the "start the next day" thing and the (more) thorough e-mailed offer. I am a little embarassed to admit that I have days when I am less than pleasant and sometimes in a rush when I shouldn't be because of the demands on my time. The schedule of a small business owner is very demanding, MUCH more so that I ever imagined.
And, if it is a small firm, maybe the Principal does not have much experience interviewing people. I know when I interviewed the first 10 to 20 people after opening my doors, I did not know what the heck I was doing. I did not know what to ask, how to approach salary questions, etc. I am sure that I did not come off well simply because of a lack of experience.
About the paperwork, I have an "employment agreement" (if you want to call it that) for my hires that spells out the terms of the employment. It is far from what you think of a "contract", just a paper that summarizes what we agreed to so that we are both on the same page and we have the same expectations. If I missed listing a holiday that was paid I would not think that it was a big deal. And if I knew that a new employee was even thinking the words "lawsuit" over something as silly as whether or not they got paid on Memorial Day, I would certainly not hire them. For what it is worth, my "agreement" lists the salary, number of sick and vacation days and when they can be taken, benifits, and a confidentiality agreement (we have a few actors and such as clients).
The distinction between an employee and consultant is an important one. Both for tax implications on your side (as a consultant you can estimate that you will have to shell out about 50% of your income or so for taxes & accounting fees) and the legal aspects on the employers side. I have a friend that runs a large business (not architecture) that got into a heap of trouble over this issue. Even though the employee had an agreement that listed them as a consultant and they were paid as such, when the contract was over and the ex-employee went for Unemployment benifits and listed this firm as their last employment, my friend was questioned and then fined very severely.
You know the real context behind the story, so maybe I am totally off base. But I thought I would throw out another perspective.
Wow, thanks Ormolu, Sterling, and Butterballs! (FYI, did that sentence just sound like it came out of the Powerpuff Girls or something?) I knew the "consultant" thing could be trouble, but you guys (or gals) really put it on straight. After all this insulting, pushing, and rushing he put me through, now he wants to pull wool over my eyes! That's it--no matter what, I'm avoiding this firm. Thanks guys!
being a consultant is not always a bad thing either, though. might not work for you in this situation, but the sound of your last post makes it seem like you interpret any situation where you're offered a position as a consultant to be an attempt to pull the wool over your eyes, and that's just not always the best way to view it.
perhaps you could think of it as being a 3-month temp job. and if you like it there, you can negotiate to stay on, if not, move on?
Hey crillywazzy. Yea, it could have been a temp job. But that would keep me from interviewing with other firms.
As for my interpretation, if he had offered the job as a 3-month consultant and employee thereafter at $37,500 from the beginning, there would be little cause to find problems. But, if first he said to come to work and let's see how things go (without knowing how much I'm getting paid), then second he said to come to work for $35,000 without knowing the details of the terms but sign some papers at 9am that I'll have for you though I won't be there until 10am, then third if he said come for $37,500 but this time you'll start as a consultant, I have to ask, just what trick is he trying to pull now? And as other have shown me, he's paying no social security for my first 3 months, and if he lets me go after the first three months, he's actually paying me less than the rate of $35,000 per year (for the first 3 months).
Thanks for the advice, though, but I already declined the offer. I suppose a temp job would have been alright, but I don't really want to quit from a job (if it sucks) or get let go (if he just wanted me for his rush project)....
WOW - I was shocked to read that an employee of 3+ months would expect severance pay!
Interesting conversation here - I receive a LOT of resumes and speak with and deal with MANY prospective employees, seasoned and otherwise....so just based on my experience.........my two cents....
From the beginning, the employer who offered you the position obviously A) liked your letter/resume/portfolio enough to have it end up on his desk to offer to get you in the door (acknowledged your apparent talent, even without "real-life office" experience, i.e. you're right now in the driver seat for SOME reason...); B) did not/could not/would not take the time to fully find out YOUR goals and aspirations (tells me he wants you in his office for whatever reason [sorry] QUICK to utilize your obvious talents); C) is more interested in things other than the value that his employees bring to the firm. Seems to spend more time dealing with (to me) "not-so-important" issues (all these damn "contractual" details) because to me that is a red flag of "thAngs gone wrong in the past.....mayhaps). Right off the bat.....sounds like BAD news to me. Send me your resume. We'll talk.
PS - no news to you now - but you sound like a bright -albeit new-to-the-interview-world - kinda guy - do NOT commit to ANYTHING until you have assessed all those open doors YOU wish to explore - this is YOUR life!
Oh by the way - as far as that severance pay thing - we had a GREAT great guy working for us for 17 years who was let go with NO severance pay. Long story but of no fault of his...anyhoo....we do nice work, so don't let that minor infraction scare you...................really...mean it.......!
New job, but no negotiations
I'll just post a slightly different perspective from the point of view of a Principal of a small practice that is currently interviewing prospective architects. Could it possibly be that the "used car salesman"-like employer was just very busy the day of your interview and rushed through the offer? This may explain the "start the next day" thing and the (more) thorough e-mailed offer. I am a little embarassed to admit that I have days when I am less than pleasant and sometimes in a rush when I shouldn't be because of the demands on my time. The schedule of a small business owner is very demanding, MUCH more so that I ever imagined.
And, if it is a small firm, maybe the Principal does not have much experience interviewing people. I know when I interviewed the first 10 to 20 people after opening my doors, I did not know what the heck I was doing. I did not know what to ask, how to approach salary questions, etc. I am sure that I did not come off well simply because of a lack of experience.
About the paperwork, I have an "employment agreement" (if you want to call it that) for my hires that spells out the terms of the employment. It is far from what you think of a "contract", just a paper that summarizes what we agreed to so that we are both on the same page and we have the same expectations. If I missed listing a holiday that was paid I would not think that it was a big deal. And if I knew that a new employee was even thinking the words "lawsuit" over something as silly as whether or not they got paid on Memorial Day, I would certainly not hire them. For what it is worth, my "agreement" lists the salary, number of sick and vacation days and when they can be taken, benifits, and a confidentiality agreement (we have a few actors and such as clients).
The distinction between an employee and consultant is an important one. Both for tax implications on your side (as a consultant you can estimate that you will have to shell out about 50% of your income or so for taxes & accounting fees) and the legal aspects on the employers side. I have a friend that runs a large business (not architecture) that got into a heap of trouble over this issue. Even though the employee had an agreement that listed them as a consultant and they were paid as such, when the contract was over and the ex-employee went for Unemployment benifits and listed this firm as their last employment, my friend was questioned and then fined very severely.
You know the real context behind the story, so maybe I am totally off base. But I thought I would throw out another perspective.
Good luck.
Wow, thanks Ormolu, Sterling, and Butterballs! (FYI, did that sentence just sound like it came out of the Powerpuff Girls or something?) I knew the "consultant" thing could be trouble, but you guys (or gals) really put it on straight. After all this insulting, pushing, and rushing he put me through, now he wants to pull wool over my eyes! That's it--no matter what, I'm avoiding this firm. Thanks guys!
being a consultant is not always a bad thing either, though. might not work for you in this situation, but the sound of your last post makes it seem like you interpret any situation where you're offered a position as a consultant to be an attempt to pull the wool over your eyes, and that's just not always the best way to view it.
perhaps you could think of it as being a 3-month temp job. and if you like it there, you can negotiate to stay on, if not, move on?
Hey crillywazzy. Yea, it could have been a temp job. But that would keep me from interviewing with other firms.
As for my interpretation, if he had offered the job as a 3-month consultant and employee thereafter at $37,500 from the beginning, there would be little cause to find problems. But, if first he said to come to work and let's see how things go (without knowing how much I'm getting paid), then second he said to come to work for $35,000 without knowing the details of the terms but sign some papers at 9am that I'll have for you though I won't be there until 10am, then third if he said come for $37,500 but this time you'll start as a consultant, I have to ask, just what trick is he trying to pull now? And as other have shown me, he's paying no social security for my first 3 months, and if he lets me go after the first three months, he's actually paying me less than the rate of $35,000 per year (for the first 3 months).
Thanks for the advice, though, but I already declined the offer. I suppose a temp job would have been alright, but I don't really want to quit from a job (if it sucks) or get let go (if he just wanted me for his rush project)....
WOW - I was shocked to read that an employee of 3+ months would expect severance pay!
Interesting conversation here - I receive a LOT of resumes and speak with and deal with MANY prospective employees, seasoned and otherwise....so just based on my experience.........my two cents....
From the beginning, the employer who offered you the position obviously A) liked your letter/resume/portfolio enough to have it end up on his desk to offer to get you in the door (acknowledged your apparent talent, even without "real-life office" experience, i.e. you're right now in the driver seat for SOME reason...); B) did not/could not/would not take the time to fully find out YOUR goals and aspirations (tells me he wants you in his office for whatever reason [sorry] QUICK to utilize your obvious talents); C) is more interested in things other than the value that his employees bring to the firm. Seems to spend more time dealing with (to me) "not-so-important" issues (all these damn "contractual" details) because to me that is a red flag of "thAngs gone wrong in the past.....mayhaps). Right off the bat.....sounds like BAD news to me. Send me your resume. We'll talk.
PS - no news to you now - but you sound like a bright -albeit new-to-the-interview-world - kinda guy - do NOT commit to ANYTHING until you have assessed all those open doors YOU wish to explore - this is YOUR life!
Oh by the way - as far as that severance pay thing - we had a GREAT great guy working for us for 17 years who was let go with NO severance pay. Long story but of no fault of his...anyhoo....we do nice work, so don't let that minor infraction scare you...................really...mean it.......!
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