I had an interview a couple of days ago at this mid-size office. I was pretty excited going into the interview; they had some pretty good designs in an area I'm interested in.
The first thing they tell me is that I have to fill out some forms and take an AutoCAD test before the interview. I've never been asked to take an AutoCAD test, but it seems to me that it should be common courtesy to let the interviewer know BEFORE the interview that they need to spend an hour taking a test. So whatever, I take the test, then wait for the partner for the interview. She flips through my portfolio for literally 30 seconds, tells me I don't have any sketchup models, and that's what they're looking for, sorry, good day, I'm late!
WTF.
I busted my butt to get to this interview (it's a 1.5 hour commute by subway and bus), spent another 1.5 hours taking a test and filling out forms, then am given 5 seconds to be told they can't hire me because I don't use sketchup.
This is something they could have easily verified by, I don't know, LOOKING at my cover letter. Or scanning one section of my resume. Or even calling me beforehand.
When I'm in the elevator with the principal, I tell her as much (in more civil words). Then she tells me, yes, we did put we wanted someone who knows sketchup in the job ad.
Fair enough. Ahem, but, why was I called in for an interview then?
I was really POed for the rest of the day about the whole experience. Here's my dilemma though; I was going to write a letter to the partner or screener, but I thought I'd wait a couple of days to chill. I probably shouldn't have said anything in the elevator but I'm not by nature a passive-aggressive person and think open dialogue is generally constructive. Should I do it?
You don't want to work there anyway. They ruled you out because you didn;t have experience you could get in about an hour? They would not care about you or your development as an architect in the least. Count yourself lucky.
Agreed. And I wouldn't write them. I think you probably made your dissatisfaction clear in the elevator conversation, and a letter on top of that would only serve to show them that you are a very angry person, and they would feel happy they didn't hire someone who gets that mad about things. I'm not arguing the fact that you have every right to be angry, but you already made your objections clear, repeating it would be too much.
rationalist is right, save the stamp.
But next time, read the advertisement. If they say in the ad that they want to see sketchup experience, then they probably mean it. Don't waste their time, or yours, going for an interview that your not prepared for.
If you are interested in this firm, then learn sketch-up and produce some work with it. Then write your followup letter.
" I've never been asked to take an AutoCAD test, but it seems to me that it should be common courtesy to let the interviewer know BEFORE the interview"
…you should be prepared for anything my friend. Sounds like an easy interview process compared to other disciplines. Google and Microsoft for example, make you fill out life history forms, then if you are lucky, you might get a phone call at 7PM on a Friday night when you least expect it (they like to catch you off guard) to do a phone interview and are ask questions like:
Q: "You are shrunk to the height of a nickel and your mass is proportionally reduced so as to maintain your original density. You are then thrown into an empty glass blender. The blades will start moving in 60 seconds. What do you do?";
Q: Why are manhole covers round?
Q: A man pushed his car to a hotel and lost his fortune. What happened?
Q: Explain the significance of "dead beef".
Q: How many golf balls fit into a school bus?
Q: "Explain a database in three sentences to your eight-year-old nephew.";
Then if you are lucky enough to pass the phone interview, they have you come in and grill you on your skills through more wacky pressure testing. You might invest hours on preparing for and completing the interview process only to be told "we'll call you".
adrasteia - I understand your frustration - I really do. But, you gotta take responsibility for your own role in this fiasco.
firms that do a lot of hiring are badgered all the time by candidates who simply do not read (or choose to ignore) the stated requirements for the vacant position. we waste lots of time processing such bogus inquiries.
given that fact, you cannot reasonably expect any firm to verify in advance of the interview that you meet 100% of the requirements posted in the job ad - firms have a right to expect that you will meet them halfway - if the sketchup requirement was in the ad, YOU could have inquired before traveling to the interview whether that was a big deal or not.
I do agree the firm should have informed you about the CAD test in advance, though. so don't think I'm just supporting the firm mindlessly
there's no upside whatsoever in you sending the letter - it may make you feel better, but it will not endear you to the firm and you need to remember that this is a very small profession. I advise against sending the letter - just remember this experience when you find yourself in the position of hiring others.
I took a CAD test once. I got a 3x5 plan from an ad in a Dream Homes magazine. They gave me 30 minutes to get as far as possible. I did a pretty good job. Got the plan roughed out, and was working on windows and doors when time was up. Then they told me they didn't want to hire me because my father in law is their biggest client. I was pretty frustrated they even bothered giving me the test. But, in my neck of the woods CAD tests are pretty common interviewing tools.
I tend to agree with quizzical and others who made similar points. If you had done your research or a little networking with those who are familiar with the firm, you probably would have uncovered the fact that they give CAD tests. (For instance, in Milwaukee, it is a well known fact that one of the larger firms gives CAD tests - or at least they did when I lived there.)
Thanks for the advice and rational comments everyone. I won't be writing any emails.
Although, I can't say I agree with those who have said I should have screened myself or learned sketchup. I dug up the job ad and this is what it said:
"...a knowledge of AutoCAD 07, 3D Programs (Sketch-Up, Rhino, etc) and some Photoshop"
99% of the job posting online asks for someone with 3D rendering skills, and this post was just like all the others. I know Rhino, and there's no way I or any other applicant could have known from this job ad that they specifically wanted someone solely to do Sketchup models.
I don't know. To me there was a big breakdown in the communication between hiring manager, screener, job poster, and myself that led to a poorly managed interview process. I thought writing an email might lead them to restructure that process and avoid any more incidents.
You're right archie that I probably wouldn't have wanted that position anyway. I'll just hope I don't have to work with the office until that partner retires.
before i believe this story i just need to confirm something, people are being or not being hired because they either know or don't know sketch-up??? there really is something wrong with this profession. i mean it's like going for a job in porn as an "actor" and being asked if they knew how to deliver a blumpkin, if you don't know i am relatively confident that you could learn that in 20 mins. the same goes for SU.
please tell me the firm, i'd love to chastise them from afar.
Jeeeeeezus, beta, I could have happily gone my whole life without knowing what a "blimpkin" is. Don't google it, friends, you don't want to know.
re: the interview, adrasteia, I agree with you that it sounds like the whole process was really porrly managed. Most people block out 1.5 hours for an interview, not knowing that you'll be spending that time doing a CAD test before you even open oyur portfolio is bad - they should ahve told you what the schedule for the process would be.
And glimpsing at your portfolio then crossing you off because you don't have SU?! WTF? As you posted in the job posting snippet, they wanted 3D, which you do have, and if they had any interest in hiring you they would have actually engaged in a conversation in which your skills and intelligence (i.e., your ability to learn an easy program quickly) would have had a chance to be revealed.
Sounds like you are better off without them and shouldn't even waste ytour energy telling them they are severly screwed up.
Sorry, blumpkin. I noticed the misspelling after I posted but really want to drive the image of its meaning out of my brain as quickly as possible so didn't correct it.
don't work for them. obviously the principals and the interviewer (associate?) don't use sketchup for they'd know you could learn it in a day if you have rhino experience.
don't sweat it. if anything it's telling of their management and you wouldn't want to work for a firm like that. i've come to realize with each successive firm i've worked for that WHO you work with often supercedes the the kind of work you're doing. if they think that having skill in a specific program with such a low learning curve is essential they obviously don't value your other potential skills enough which seems to me like they're not open to utilizing your potential, but rather what you have already. file it away, it's not worth blowing steam over.
It's been discussed at length elsewhere, but a decent portion of firms do. Not the majority, but enough to be statistically significant. I used to have to administer these (pain upon pain...), and when I did it the firm was a sole practitioner + one or two people worth of drafting help. The owner did not know CAD *at all*, so it was of vital importance that the people he hired know it well enough to not need help. And he'd been burned in the past by people claiming to know it and turning out to be complete crap. I would expect that's how a lot of it gets started, with people lying on their resumes, and the firms they've burned deciding they're going to need to weed those people out in the future.
You are a stronger person than I...if a firm wanted to administer an AutoCAD test to me after having in their posession a portfolio and resume, I'd walk out on the spot. You'll be far better off working somewhere else that's wiling to invest in you professionally and personally.
I'm surprised they didn't ask you to piss in a cup before hiring you.....
just kidding.....but I always see that sign on the front door of Home Depot when I go there for my home improvement projects.
apparently I just put up with too much.... I HAVE pissed in a cup for an office before. It was a construction firm, though, and their explanation was that their insurance rates were significantly lower if they drug tested all employees, not just those in the field. I was pretty mad that they didn't tell me about that one in advance, though. Now THAT's something you need fair warning for!
while i don't think that treatment was fair, i doubt it was MEANT to be rude or dismissive. there are people still so mystified by new software that they simply can't imagine that it would be as easily picked up as sketchup is. it seems like a hurdle that they can't imagine clearing so they project that anxiety onto young interns and make stupid decisions like your interviewer made.
the interesting thing is it takes about 10 minutes to learn sketch up. not the most difficult thing to grasp, esp. for someone who's used to a more complex interface.
a couple years ago some of you may remember my own autocad test interview. in my opinion if they are testing you on your autocad skills, then they don't care about design. run away from these people.
I'm sure some will find this as a shocker: A female friend of mine a number of years ago...like twenty years ago came to this country from France with a Maters Degree and she actually had the Partner of a Firm come on two her in the interview for a job. Ya she was hot but what the Hell! She ended up taking a job as an Architect in a Town Planning office where she was a bit more protected from wierdo's. I was told this much later in her career, which I might add was stellar, however cancer took her at a much to young age.
le bossman is right, Sketch up is way too easy learn, we tell our clients to download the program, so show off their 'future home' to friends & fam. to dismiss someone like that is pretty lame, tough luck, you're better off.
I have to admit I was more worried in past when hiring new staff that they had to know our software but just about everyone who graduated after me learns the stuff way to fast. I had one woman start and I had set aside a month for her to learn vectorworks and she had it dialed in like three days. Totally took me off guard, I have more worries with older staff memebers though.
But to no know Sketch-up is no biggie and most respectable Architect / designer could figure it out pretty quick.
i shudda listened to lb. i almost did, but then i figgered...what the hell it can't be THAT bad.
but it is.
i am all for sexual depravity, but damn that is one strange thing. that a word even needs to exist for it freaks me out. means that it happens more than once (you know like by accident or something ;-) )
sketchup as candidate filter? rubbish. best lay that one on the pile.
the thought of a firm testing my cad skills is annoying. but it is relatively common.
personally, right now someone who knew more than me about css would be lovely to sit down and chat with. i hate learning new software. but i manage it, nearly daily it seems lately...and would expect anyone i work with to do the same. a test that measures THAT ability i can understand. maybe that is what gates' buddies are after.
i actually think firms who put requests for sketchup users are great, it is a huge red flag that tells you they are not really a design firm, but they want to make clients think they are.
well -- let's see -- there are about 26,000 architectural firms in the US, and another 35,000 consulting engineering firms and maybe another 30,000 interior design firms --- would you like that alphabetical or by state?
Let me restate that - Do you know any good design firms that do this? - Gehry doesn't - Eisenman doesn't - Is it a corporate thing because I don't think SOM does it - I'm curious what type of firm does this-
If you have to ask what good is then I can't go and further
Please - Can you go by state - Can you start with CA or NY
Sep 17, 07 11:45 am ·
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An interview tale -- I just HAVE to vent about it.
I had an interview a couple of days ago at this mid-size office. I was pretty excited going into the interview; they had some pretty good designs in an area I'm interested in.
The first thing they tell me is that I have to fill out some forms and take an AutoCAD test before the interview. I've never been asked to take an AutoCAD test, but it seems to me that it should be common courtesy to let the interviewer know BEFORE the interview that they need to spend an hour taking a test. So whatever, I take the test, then wait for the partner for the interview. She flips through my portfolio for literally 30 seconds, tells me I don't have any sketchup models, and that's what they're looking for, sorry, good day, I'm late!
WTF.
I busted my butt to get to this interview (it's a 1.5 hour commute by subway and bus), spent another 1.5 hours taking a test and filling out forms, then am given 5 seconds to be told they can't hire me because I don't use sketchup.
This is something they could have easily verified by, I don't know, LOOKING at my cover letter. Or scanning one section of my resume. Or even calling me beforehand.
When I'm in the elevator with the principal, I tell her as much (in more civil words). Then she tells me, yes, we did put we wanted someone who knows sketchup in the job ad.
Fair enough. Ahem, but, why was I called in for an interview then?
I was really POed for the rest of the day about the whole experience. Here's my dilemma though; I was going to write a letter to the partner or screener, but I thought I'd wait a couple of days to chill. I probably shouldn't have said anything in the elevator but I'm not by nature a passive-aggressive person and think open dialogue is generally constructive. Should I do it?
You don't want to work there anyway. They ruled you out because you didn;t have experience you could get in about an hour? They would not care about you or your development as an architect in the least. Count yourself lucky.
Agreed. And I wouldn't write them. I think you probably made your dissatisfaction clear in the elevator conversation, and a letter on top of that would only serve to show them that you are a very angry person, and they would feel happy they didn't hire someone who gets that mad about things. I'm not arguing the fact that you have every right to be angry, but you already made your objections clear, repeating it would be too much.
rationalist is right, save the stamp.
But next time, read the advertisement. If they say in the ad that they want to see sketchup experience, then they probably mean it. Don't waste their time, or yours, going for an interview that your not prepared for.
If you are interested in this firm, then learn sketch-up and produce some work with it. Then write your followup letter.
Sorry you had a bad experience :)
" I've never been asked to take an AutoCAD test, but it seems to me that it should be common courtesy to let the interviewer know BEFORE the interview"
…you should be prepared for anything my friend. Sounds like an easy interview process compared to other disciplines. Google and Microsoft for example, make you fill out life history forms, then if you are lucky, you might get a phone call at 7PM on a Friday night when you least expect it (they like to catch you off guard) to do a phone interview and are ask questions like:
Q: "You are shrunk to the height of a nickel and your mass is proportionally reduced so as to maintain your original density. You are then thrown into an empty glass blender. The blades will start moving in 60 seconds. What do you do?";
Q: Why are manhole covers round?
Q: A man pushed his car to a hotel and lost his fortune. What happened?
Q: Explain the significance of "dead beef".
Q: How many golf balls fit into a school bus?
Q: "Explain a database in three sentences to your eight-year-old nephew.";
Then if you are lucky enough to pass the phone interview, they have you come in and grill you on your skills through more wacky pressure testing. You might invest hours on preparing for and completing the interview process only to be told "we'll call you".
adrasteia - I understand your frustration - I really do. But, you gotta take responsibility for your own role in this fiasco.
firms that do a lot of hiring are badgered all the time by candidates who simply do not read (or choose to ignore) the stated requirements for the vacant position. we waste lots of time processing such bogus inquiries.
given that fact, you cannot reasonably expect any firm to verify in advance of the interview that you meet 100% of the requirements posted in the job ad - firms have a right to expect that you will meet them halfway - if the sketchup requirement was in the ad, YOU could have inquired before traveling to the interview whether that was a big deal or not.
I do agree the firm should have informed you about the CAD test in advance, though. so don't think I'm just supporting the firm mindlessly
there's no upside whatsoever in you sending the letter - it may make you feel better, but it will not endear you to the firm and you need to remember that this is a very small profession. I advise against sending the letter - just remember this experience when you find yourself in the position of hiring others.
I took a CAD test once. I got a 3x5 plan from an ad in a Dream Homes magazine. They gave me 30 minutes to get as far as possible. I did a pretty good job. Got the plan roughed out, and was working on windows and doors when time was up. Then they told me they didn't want to hire me because my father in law is their biggest client. I was pretty frustrated they even bothered giving me the test. But, in my neck of the woods CAD tests are pretty common interviewing tools.
I tend to agree with quizzical and others who made similar points. If you had done your research or a little networking with those who are familiar with the firm, you probably would have uncovered the fact that they give CAD tests. (For instance, in Milwaukee, it is a well known fact that one of the larger firms gives CAD tests - or at least they did when I lived there.)
i don't think i'd go to an interview at a strip club if the ad said nothing of stripping
katze your q&a frightens me but I think I'll use it loosen up the crowd next time we are interviewing people.
Thanks for the advice and rational comments everyone. I won't be writing any emails.
Although, I can't say I agree with those who have said I should have screened myself or learned sketchup. I dug up the job ad and this is what it said:
"...a knowledge of AutoCAD 07, 3D Programs (Sketch-Up, Rhino, etc) and some Photoshop"
99% of the job posting online asks for someone with 3D rendering skills, and this post was just like all the others. I know Rhino, and there's no way I or any other applicant could have known from this job ad that they specifically wanted someone solely to do Sketchup models.
I don't know. To me there was a big breakdown in the communication between hiring manager, screener, job poster, and myself that led to a poorly managed interview process. I thought writing an email might lead them to restructure that process and avoid any more incidents.
You're right archie that I probably wouldn't have wanted that position anyway. I'll just hope I don't have to work with the office until that partner retires.
That is misleading, and makes it seem like any 3D program would do. Which, BTW, it should, considering how easy SketchUP is to learn.
before i believe this story i just need to confirm something, people are being or not being hired because they either know or don't know sketch-up??? there really is something wrong with this profession. i mean it's like going for a job in porn as an "actor" and being asked if they knew how to deliver a blumpkin, if you don't know i am relatively confident that you could learn that in 20 mins. the same goes for SU.
please tell me the firm, i'd love to chastise them from afar.
oh, and by the way a phone call prior to sending the resume would have cleared up any confusion.....
Jeeeeeezus, beta, I could have happily gone my whole life without knowing what a "blimpkin" is. Don't google it, friends, you don't want to know.
re: the interview, adrasteia, I agree with you that it sounds like the whole process was really porrly managed. Most people block out 1.5 hours for an interview, not knowing that you'll be spending that time doing a CAD test before you even open oyur portfolio is bad - they should ahve told you what the schedule for the process would be.
And glimpsing at your portfolio then crossing you off because you don't have SU?! WTF? As you posted in the job posting snippet, they wanted 3D, which you do have, and if they had any interest in hiring you they would have actually engaged in a conversation in which your skills and intelligence (i.e., your ability to learn an easy program quickly) would have had a chance to be revealed.
Sounds like you are better off without them and shouldn't even waste ytour energy telling them they are severly screwed up.
Sorry, blumpkin. I noticed the misspelling after I posted but really want to drive the image of its meaning out of my brain as quickly as possible so didn't correct it.
The obvious question: does the portfolio you showed the interviewer contain any of your Rhino images?
lb, you crack me up, what is a blumpkin btw? i hear the kids talking about it all the time....;0]
I see this thread quickly going awry....
don't work for them. obviously the principals and the interviewer (associate?) don't use sketchup for they'd know you could learn it in a day if you have rhino experience.
don't sweat it. if anything it's telling of their management and you wouldn't want to work for a firm like that. i've come to realize with each successive firm i've worked for that WHO you work with often supercedes the the kind of work you're doing. if they think that having skill in a specific program with such a low learning curve is essential they obviously don't value your other potential skills enough which seems to me like they're not open to utilizing your potential, but rather what you have already. file it away, it's not worth blowing steam over.
[http=http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=blumpkin]let's clear up this blumpkin mystery[/url]
oops
let's clear up this blumpkin mystery
techno - yeah, good idea! I have more Q's if you want them...
Oh man.
Check out Attachment A of this document. There is a not-quite-but-almost censor ready description of the sex act in question.
Who was the firm? Since you didn't get the job you should tell everyone what the firms name is so we can avoid them in the future.
By the way - I have never heard of anyone giving a CAD test - I think that's really strange - What firms actually do this?
It's been discussed at length elsewhere, but a decent portion of firms do. Not the majority, but enough to be statistically significant. I used to have to administer these (pain upon pain...), and when I did it the firm was a sole practitioner + one or two people worth of drafting help. The owner did not know CAD *at all*, so it was of vital importance that the people he hired know it well enough to not need help. And he'd been burned in the past by people claiming to know it and turning out to be complete crap. I would expect that's how a lot of it gets started, with people lying on their resumes, and the firms they've burned deciding they're going to need to weed those people out in the future.
You are a stronger person than I...if a firm wanted to administer an AutoCAD test to me after having in their posession a portfolio and resume, I'd walk out on the spot. You'll be far better off working somewhere else that's wiling to invest in you professionally and personally.
I heard Sanchez/Blumpkin was hiring, no CAD tests
I'm surprised they didn't ask you to piss in a cup before hiring you.....
just kidding.....but I always see that sign on the front door of Home Depot when I go there for my home improvement projects.
apparently I just put up with too much.... I HAVE pissed in a cup for an office before. It was a construction firm, though, and their explanation was that their insurance rates were significantly lower if they drug tested all employees, not just those in the field. I was pretty mad that they didn't tell me about that one in advance, though. Now THAT's something you need fair warning for!
as long as they don't have you take a test during the interview to be the office cup-holder...
at least we now know what Larry Craig's "disorderly conduct" charge might be...
while i don't think that treatment was fair, i doubt it was MEANT to be rude or dismissive. there are people still so mystified by new software that they simply can't imagine that it would be as easily picked up as sketchup is. it seems like a hurdle that they can't imagine clearing so they project that anxiety onto young interns and make stupid decisions like your interviewer made.
the interesting thing is it takes about 10 minutes to learn sketch up. not the most difficult thing to grasp, esp. for someone who's used to a more complex interface.
a couple years ago some of you may remember my own autocad test interview. in my opinion if they are testing you on your autocad skills, then they don't care about design. run away from these people.
I'm sure some will find this as a shocker: A female friend of mine a number of years ago...like twenty years ago came to this country from France with a Maters Degree and she actually had the Partner of a Firm come on two her in the interview for a job. Ya she was hot but what the Hell! She ended up taking a job as an Architect in a Town Planning office where she was a bit more protected from wierdo's. I was told this much later in her career, which I might add was stellar, however cancer took her at a much to young age.
Dirty Sanchez and ASSociates is hiring. Bilingual is a plus!!!
le bossman is right, Sketch up is way too easy learn, we tell our clients to download the program, so show off their 'future home' to friends & fam. to dismiss someone like that is pretty lame, tough luck, you're better off.
I have to admit I was more worried in past when hiring new staff that they had to know our software but just about everyone who graduated after me learns the stuff way to fast. I had one woman start and I had set aside a month for her to learn vectorworks and she had it dialed in like three days. Totally took me off guard, I have more worries with older staff memebers though.
But to no know Sketch-up is no biggie and most respectable Architect / designer could figure it out pretty quick.
seems to me they just used that sketchup line to cover for something else they didn't like about the candidate.
people on both sides of the recruitment process find it really difficult to be candid when there's something about the other party they don't like.
i used to get rejected alot from firms since i didnt know 3d viz or the fact that i'm been on my own for 7+ years......
so now, i'm marketing myself as a contractor and they can pay my fees for what i know....
you can have 15 good traits but the 1 trait you dont have is the one they'll bitch about.... been there
b
Reading this as a student, its quite depressing.
I know my way around 3d viz very well, but im going to school to be an architect, not a 3d modeller. Or is there a difference as a recent graduatel?
It seems that infact having a good knowledge of these programs could be a hinderance, a pidgeon-hole....
i shudda listened to lb. i almost did, but then i figgered...what the hell it can't be THAT bad.
but it is.
i am all for sexual depravity, but damn that is one strange thing. that a word even needs to exist for it freaks me out. means that it happens more than once (you know like by accident or something ;-) )
sketchup as candidate filter? rubbish. best lay that one on the pile.
the thought of a firm testing my cad skills is annoying. but it is relatively common.
personally, right now someone who knew more than me about css would be lovely to sit down and chat with. i hate learning new software. but i manage it, nearly daily it seems lately...and would expect anyone i work with to do the same. a test that measures THAT ability i can understand. maybe that is what gates' buddies are after.
i'm going to resist the temptation to google it...but the curiosity is overwhelming...must...resist...temptation...
oh, i caved in. that's hilarious.
yo, sent you an email jump, re: css . not sure whether archinect has its own little inbox or whether it uses your registered address though
i actually think firms who put requests for sketchup users are great, it is a huge red flag that tells you they are not really a design firm, but they want to make clients think they are.
Can someone tell me what firms do AutoCad testing? - I really have never heard of it
well -- let's see -- there are about 26,000 architectural firms in the US, and another 35,000 consulting engineering firms and maybe another 30,000 interior design firms --- would you like that alphabetical or by state?
Let me restate that - Do you know any good design firms that do this? - Gehry doesn't - Eisenman doesn't - Is it a corporate thing because I don't think SOM does it - I'm curious what type of firm does this-
If you have to ask what good is then I can't go and further
Please - Can you go by state - Can you start with CA or NY
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