considering all the schlock that i've seen built, i'd argue that more architects and their interns should be unpaid...possibly even fined.
personally i have no problem with unpaid internships. it's a competitive world and we all have to make sacrifices to get what we want. for some of us those desires are working with stars and we're willing to sacrifice the money. not everybody has to choose that path and as long as there are a variety of options then i don't see any reason to apply any universal laws such as "everybody must be paid"
well puddles, the reason that I believe everyone should get paid is that when there are people working for no pay out there, it lessens the ability of everyone else who finds that unacceptable to bargain for decent wages, because the boss has in mind, "well, I COULD not pay you at all!" I understand your arguement though, I just can't condone the effect that it has on the overall wages of the profession.
I am glad to see you expressing an opinion beyond the dislike of pants, however!
I think internships are fine if you are young and pre qualified with any architectural education, but once you have started the education or at least a bachelors qualified you should get paid.
i know plenty of people outside of architecture who work unpaid internships. we're not that special. no one is forcing these people to work there, and they obviously see some opportunity, beyond immediate financial rewards.
If being paid as an intern is dreadfully or even ethically important, you should simply disregard these unpaid gigs. People there have paid their dues in the past themselves, however, in order to do the kind of work they want to do for life. You can surely attempt to take them to court or start some class action case in labor law, but I doubt you care to bother with them in your interest.
There is always other negotiation with these firms that don't pay their interns. And internship with some of them does lead to something else glamorous later that pays. There is no immediate guarantees, of course, but the value of such "volunteer work" is in testing professional commitment and building your character. Keep looking while interning.
Maybe you could use a second job that pays for now.
jz, judging from tumbleweed's letter from sci-arc there is an uneasiness about the practice of unpaid internships within academia that i would guess extends all the way up to the starchitects running these offices. sci-arc doesn't want to be associated with these outfits. i don't think there's a lot of pride in not paying employees. making a stink about these types practices on public forums like archinect i think goes a long way in at least advancing the discussion, if not changing practices within the profession.
what if its a great learning experience though? i would rather work for free at a place where I could learn a lot and potenially make some great connections, instead of making shitty money doing details where i would have to find a way to supplement my income anyway.
obviously this depends on each person's financial situation, but i dont see how a school posting a job offer could ever be a bad thing.
if your concerned with free interns saturating the market, then you should hire them yourselves.
i'm mystified by any intern that complains about drawing details. drawing details is one of the best parts of your internship; there's a lot more monotonous work you'll do as an intern than drawing details, but that's beside the point.
xacto, i think you're looking at this too specifically within your own interests and missing the large point about professional ethics. by accepting unpaid internships you are contributing to a culture that devalues the work we do as interns and ultimately as architects. i didn't know the aia had taken a strong stance on this, and i'm glad they have. it seems that by resisting this through professional organizations like the aia and at a more grassroots level the message is starting to get through that this is an unacceptable practice.
xacto - I think an important point made earlier is this: if the employer doesn't think enough of an intern's labor to pay them for it, there is little chance that the employer cares enough about that intern to ensure that they learn anything.
"what if its a great learning experience though? i would rather work for free at a place where I could learn a lot and potenially make some great connections..."
if thats not the case, then im obviously not going to work there.
most for-profit architecture firms are leveraging interns' labor by billing their hours at a higher multiplier than the senior staff. most projects will turn a profit based on the number of hours interns work. this typical billing formula gets all screwed up when you have a starchitect not paying their interns anything. because starchitects tend to be crappy business people that go way over the alloted hours for a job (if they even assign hours at all), they're basically being kept afloat off the sweat of the interns. if they ran their business like a typical architecture firm (as gehry does), they could afford to pay their interns. it's just their crappy business savvy that forces them to look for unpaid interns. the curse of being a "genius," i suppose.
In my mind, you should always be learning at your job. Should one never get paid then? Shit, i'm 40 years old, and I am still challenged every day. This idea that an employer can get out of paying a young naive work force by calling it a learning experience is ridiculous. If you aren't learning at your job find a new one and one that pays you a living salary.
e, you are taking my point completely out of context. i am talking about being an intern, not a 40yr old architect. do you really think that all firms produce equally interesting/reputable/important work? is it possible for an intern to have a better experience at firm a than firm b?
the reality of the situation is that people are taking these jobs, and it is not too hard to figure out why.
say youre considering hiring someone who just completed a 2yr internship. would you hire the candidate who had great experience, an amazing portfolio, and a well known rec, or someone who got paid a lot doing the same job as a dozen other applicants.
do you discriminate against potential employees based on how little they made at their last job?
an employer gets away paying an intern nothing for the same reason a school can charge 40,000 a year for an education.
^^because someone like you will take it up the ass from them? Agreed.
Obviousy it is possible to have a better experience at one firm than at another, and obviously some firms do better work than others. The difference of opinion lies not in whether that is the case, but is whether that justifies the outright abuse of interns. How the hell are they supposed to live? Would one of these places be ok taking an intern that lived in their car, or on the streets? Because that's all their salary allows them to do. All I'm saying is at least pay the minimum wage. Be legal about it, give the person enough to buy some ramen and a crappy apartment.
not the point at all. If a firm requires employees to dress nicely, the employees should be paid enough that they can afford nice clothes. If a firm requires employees to have a permanent home address, be well rested and nourished enough to do their jobs, and get there in a timely manner, they should pay enough that the employee can afford food, rent, and transport.
that is some of the most ridiculous logic i have ever heard. consider this situation, following your rational: there are two employees working at the same firm, performing the same task. one is a single mother with 3 kids and one is a married women with no children. should the firm pay the single mother more money than the married woman so she can buy nice clothes after covering the expenses of her children?
if a firm requires employees to dress nicely, and you can't afford to dress nicely, dont apply for that job.
your argument has left me unconvinced that i am unethical (or a sodomite) to accept an unpaid internship. it may lower my immediate enthusaiasm, but if i can afford to go indebt for a few more years and take advantage of an opportunity that i think will pay off much more in the long run, how am i in the wrong? should i sacrifice my career to try and make the world "fair"? seems pretty let utopian, if not irrational.
I think we all might be coming down a little too hard on Vito Acconni. Whilst I believe what he is doing isn't correct in any shape or form, he is not saying that there will be no compensation at all. There is no mention of how much the lunch stipend used to be. It could be quite alot or it could be a few pennies - I remember being able to buy $1.50 garlic pretzels opposite Tower Records - and that was only 15 years ago
That said I agree that such actions only perpetuate the continual under paying of architectural services as well as value added service
no, your family vs. no family example does not follow, because the person with kids made a choice to do so, they are not required to have that family in order to keep their job. The firm should pay at a rate commensurate with their expectations from a person as well as experience, but the choice to have a family or the choice to take on substantial debt (whether from school, or buying a fancy car instead of something more economical, or whatever) is not the responsibility of the firm.
The statement that you are looking for me to convince you of your lack of morals rings hollow. You're going to do what you want to do, no matter how selfish and stupid it is, completely without regard to anything someone says to you on an internet message board. Obviously the lowering of salaries for comparable positions means absolutely nothing to you, since it's been talked about above and has yet to move you.
if i can afford the opportunity to work somewhere that i think justifies the cost, im going to take the job. how much or how little you make is none of my business.
i dont think that this behavior makes me stupid selfish immoral unethical or sodomite.
if you cant afford to take an unpaid internship, or any job, why would you even consider applying?
how about if i called myself a volunteer - would you be happy?
back when mehrdad yazdani was climbing the starchitect ladder, I had a gig with the firm where he was getting polished. earned a sweet $12/hour in 1995 there. there was also an intern from texas tech/UT? that was doing his work study gig. needless to say, when things got slow, I got the ax versus the cheaper student labor who had a six month contract.
I hope somebody from sci-arc or the AIA mails the architect's code of ethic to the artiste and tells him to knock it off.
if you volunteer your time, the you should be free to set your own hours and choose tasks to work on. if you are being told what to do, then you are an employee and better get paid.
One other thing: the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act holds that it's illegal for an employer to offer employment for anything less than minimum wage except for full time students. Even in that case, the hour limitations and provision for breaks are still in effect.
As I understand it the "Vito Acconci Studio" is able to offer architecture as a service - which they do - because several licensed archtects work there. If this is the case, then they fall under labor laws just like any professional firm.
I agree with rationalist, taking an unpaid "internship" - unless you are a student getting school credit for it - is selfich and stupid. Offering one is unethical at the least.
on second, why not make it mandatory to pay interns.
besides, labor can be outsourced to developing countries for as little as $6/day. it won't be long before all the interns in the us are paid for their work...there just might not be many of them working.
i'll repeat, we live in a very competitive world and you have to be prepared to sacrifice to achieve what you want.
Also, meta, I have a problem with this false distinction you've set up between "art" and everything else. Art is a business just like anything else. Expertise AND labor both have value.
The crap intern tasks that Vito will have this unpaid schmuck doing for him is quite clearly "labor". As is manifesting any "moment of artistic genius" into reality.
if you want to return to the guild system where parents "interned" their eleven year old boys to painters, masons, armor makers, tanners, fine then you don't need university.
how much or how little you make is none of my business.
I'm just responding because you still seem to think this is personal with me, xacto. I am thankfully above the level that someone would try to get me to work for free. You may think it's none of your business how much other interns make, but it's partly your fault because you are undercutting the labor market and driving the whole price structure down.
there seems to be alot ppl here saying they are against unpaid internships because it pulls down the wages of the whole profession.
i am not convinced about that.
i don't know how it is in the US, but in EU there is such a clear distinction between interns and 'real' workers that the two salary situations do not effect each other at all.
some ppl do their time as interns, either paid or not - and then they get a job with a contract 'real money'. often the internship is a way in.
wow, the eu is even more screwed up on this than the americans - a rarity.
i do think anytime you have someone working unpaid it devalues the work that individual is doing. if it is happening en masse, it devalues the work done on the whole at that position. my example above about how firms leverage interns' billable hours at a higher multiplier was meant to show that the work interns are doing for firms should not be undervalued and is in fact often the difference between turning a profit or losing money on a project.
the question is whether the volunteer intern is doing billable work. if they are making blue styrofoam models for a competition that may or may not be a winner, well its speculative and therefore not billable. if you are doing cd's or sd's or dd's or anything that is under a contract, then you should get paid. getting paid and getting laid is what its about people.
vado, that's the other point i was trying to make. many of these starchitect outfits don't operate their office as a real business which throws the whole conventional formula (you know, like making a profit) out the window.
rationalist, im just responding because im not intimidated by your condescending remarks. why am i responsible, or at fault, if you cant negotiate a higher wage?
i could afford to accept an unpaid internship in nyc because my family lives there and i have saved up money from working the past 7 years.
should i not make a sound investment because you couldn't make it?
when i accept a job offer the only people i consider are myself and my family. if i think its a good career move, im going to do it. tell me whats irrational about that. i'm not below any moral level, and i dont feel guilty.
I am suprised no one has mentioned the labour wars of the early 1900s (I'm not sure of exact dates). One group of people would work for 2$ an hour, another would work for 1.50$, and so the 2$ workers were told, either quit, or we cut your pay to 1.50, and this continued until the wages were way below anything anyone could afford to survive on. This is why unions were formed, to protect the workers. I am not pro-union, however, in the beginning they did have advantages, and they did work for the people who were slaving away to line the pockets of big business. This is the problem with working for free. I agree that if the work is not making money, then you could be volunteering, but if their is a paying client, then all work should be paid for.
I also fear that much of the work interns to will be outsourced at some point because it will mean more profit for the firm/principal. But until that happens, there is no sense in undercutting your fellow workers just so you can hob-knob with somebody you think is important. Also, it is desrespectful to yourself for him to pay you nothing because it says that what you do isn't important enough to deserve any sort of reward. Basicly, an unpaid intern is just a sycophant, and as such will never attain any respect from the people he serves.
what you seem to fail to understand from your last post is that you,
as part of the profession, should look out for more than just yourself.
unpaid internships should be seen as an insult in this or any
profession. by accepting an unpaid internship you continue to allow
the practice to take place. practices that continue this practice of
not paying even a minimum amount should be shunned not
encouraged...especially in a city like new york.
of course since there are select firms that have more than enough
willing applicants for doing free work..it's not going to stop...so
congrats on being one of the lucky ones not getting paid.
i assume you haven't worked for seven years as an architectural
intern have you? because i can't understand, or see the point,
of anyone working for free at that point in your career.
Unpaid Internship
acceptable in a pinch.
but i expect more of you, acconci.
considering all the schlock that i've seen built, i'd argue that more architects and their interns should be unpaid...possibly even fined.
personally i have no problem with unpaid internships. it's a competitive world and we all have to make sacrifices to get what we want. for some of us those desires are working with stars and we're willing to sacrifice the money. not everybody has to choose that path and as long as there are a variety of options then i don't see any reason to apply any universal laws such as "everybody must be paid"
I got an email at work once of a firm offering a full time unpaid position in NYC.
well puddles, the reason that I believe everyone should get paid is that when there are people working for no pay out there, it lessens the ability of everyone else who finds that unacceptable to bargain for decent wages, because the boss has in mind, "well, I COULD not pay you at all!" I understand your arguement though, I just can't condone the effect that it has on the overall wages of the profession.
I am glad to see you expressing an opinion beyond the dislike of pants, however!
I think internships are fine if you are young and pre qualified with any architectural education, but once you have started the education or at least a bachelors qualified you should get paid.
i know plenty of people outside of architecture who work unpaid internships. we're not that special. no one is forcing these people to work there, and they obviously see some opportunity, beyond immediate financial rewards.
If being paid as an intern is dreadfully or even ethically important, you should simply disregard these unpaid gigs. People there have paid their dues in the past themselves, however, in order to do the kind of work they want to do for life. You can surely attempt to take them to court or start some class action case in labor law, but I doubt you care to bother with them in your interest.
There is always other negotiation with these firms that don't pay their interns. And internship with some of them does lead to something else glamorous later that pays. There is no immediate guarantees, of course, but the value of such "volunteer work" is in testing professional commitment and building your character. Keep looking while interning.
Maybe you could use a second job that pays for now.
jz, judging from tumbleweed's letter from sci-arc there is an uneasiness about the practice of unpaid internships within academia that i would guess extends all the way up to the starchitects running these offices. sci-arc doesn't want to be associated with these outfits. i don't think there's a lot of pride in not paying employees. making a stink about these types practices on public forums like archinect i think goes a long way in at least advancing the discussion, if not changing practices within the profession.
what if its a great learning experience though? i would rather work for free at a place where I could learn a lot and potenially make some great connections, instead of making shitty money doing details where i would have to find a way to supplement my income anyway.
obviously this depends on each person's financial situation, but i dont see how a school posting a job offer could ever be a bad thing.
if your concerned with free interns saturating the market, then you should hire them yourselves.
i'm mystified by any intern that complains about drawing details. drawing details is one of the best parts of your internship; there's a lot more monotonous work you'll do as an intern than drawing details, but that's beside the point.
xacto, i think you're looking at this too specifically within your own interests and missing the large point about professional ethics. by accepting unpaid internships you are contributing to a culture that devalues the work we do as interns and ultimately as architects. i didn't know the aia had taken a strong stance on this, and i'm glad they have. it seems that by resisting this through professional organizations like the aia and at a more grassroots level the message is starting to get through that this is an unacceptable practice.
are you saying its unethical for an architect to offer an unpaid internship or for an intern to accept one?
unethical for an architect to offer one, though the interns that accept are contributing to the problem; it's cyclical.
xacto - I think an important point made earlier is this: if the employer doesn't think enough of an intern's labor to pay them for it, there is little chance that the employer cares enough about that intern to ensure that they learn anything.
"what if its a great learning experience though? i would rather work for free at a place where I could learn a lot and potenially make some great connections..."
if thats not the case, then im obviously not going to work there.
a little more food for thought:
from pro prac 101 (thank you, eric hill):
most for-profit architecture firms are leveraging interns' labor by billing their hours at a higher multiplier than the senior staff. most projects will turn a profit based on the number of hours interns work. this typical billing formula gets all screwed up when you have a starchitect not paying their interns anything. because starchitects tend to be crappy business people that go way over the alloted hours for a job (if they even assign hours at all), they're basically being kept afloat off the sweat of the interns. if they ran their business like a typical architecture firm (as gehry does), they could afford to pay their interns. it's just their crappy business savvy that forces them to look for unpaid interns. the curse of being a "genius," i suppose.
In my mind, you should always be learning at your job. Should one never get paid then? Shit, i'm 40 years old, and I am still challenged every day. This idea that an employer can get out of paying a young naive work force by calling it a learning experience is ridiculous. If you aren't learning at your job find a new one and one that pays you a living salary.
e, you are taking my point completely out of context. i am talking about being an intern, not a 40yr old architect. do you really think that all firms produce equally interesting/reputable/important work? is it possible for an intern to have a better experience at firm a than firm b?
the reality of the situation is that people are taking these jobs, and it is not too hard to figure out why.
say youre considering hiring someone who just completed a 2yr internship. would you hire the candidate who had great experience, an amazing portfolio, and a well known rec, or someone who got paid a lot doing the same job as a dozen other applicants.
do you discriminate against potential employees based on how little they made at their last job?
an employer gets away paying an intern nothing for the same reason a school can charge 40,000 a year for an education.
^^because someone like you will take it up the ass from them? Agreed.
Obviousy it is possible to have a better experience at one firm than at another, and obviously some firms do better work than others. The difference of opinion lies not in whether that is the case, but is whether that justifies the outright abuse of interns. How the hell are they supposed to live? Would one of these places be ok taking an intern that lived in their car, or on the streets? Because that's all their salary allows them to do. All I'm saying is at least pay the minimum wage. Be legal about it, give the person enough to buy some ramen and a crappy apartment.
not happy at your job rationalist?
not the point at all. If a firm requires employees to dress nicely, the employees should be paid enough that they can afford nice clothes. If a firm requires employees to have a permanent home address, be well rested and nourished enough to do their jobs, and get there in a timely manner, they should pay enough that the employee can afford food, rent, and transport.
just curious...
what did the unpaid interns do at their unpaid internships?
that is some of the most ridiculous logic i have ever heard. consider this situation, following your rational: there are two employees working at the same firm, performing the same task. one is a single mother with 3 kids and one is a married women with no children. should the firm pay the single mother more money than the married woman so she can buy nice clothes after covering the expenses of her children?
if a firm requires employees to dress nicely, and you can't afford to dress nicely, dont apply for that job.
your argument has left me unconvinced that i am unethical (or a sodomite) to accept an unpaid internship. it may lower my immediate enthusaiasm, but if i can afford to go indebt for a few more years and take advantage of an opportunity that i think will pay off much more in the long run, how am i in the wrong? should i sacrifice my career to try and make the world "fair"? seems pretty let utopian, if not irrational.
I think we all might be coming down a little too hard on Vito Acconni. Whilst I believe what he is doing isn't correct in any shape or form, he is not saying that there will be no compensation at all. There is no mention of how much the lunch stipend used to be. It could be quite alot or it could be a few pennies - I remember being able to buy $1.50 garlic pretzels opposite Tower Records - and that was only 15 years ago
That said I agree that such actions only perpetuate the continual under paying of architectural services as well as value added service
no, your family vs. no family example does not follow, because the person with kids made a choice to do so, they are not required to have that family in order to keep their job. The firm should pay at a rate commensurate with their expectations from a person as well as experience, but the choice to have a family or the choice to take on substantial debt (whether from school, or buying a fancy car instead of something more economical, or whatever) is not the responsibility of the firm.
The statement that you are looking for me to convince you of your lack of morals rings hollow. You're going to do what you want to do, no matter how selfish and stupid it is, completely without regard to anything someone says to you on an internet message board. Obviously the lowering of salaries for comparable positions means absolutely nothing to you, since it's been talked about above and has yet to move you.
if i can afford the opportunity to work somewhere that i think justifies the cost, im going to take the job. how much or how little you make is none of my business.
i dont think that this behavior makes me stupid selfish immoral unethical or sodomite.
if you cant afford to take an unpaid internship, or any job, why would you even consider applying?
how about if i called myself a volunteer - would you be happy?
You and Brad Pitt. Congratulations on being able to afford Architecture as a hobby.
If you are going to volunteer, you might consider doing it for a humanitarian organization.
but i thought npo's were unethical too...
http://www.archinect.com/forum/threads.php?id=62424_0_42_0_C
rationalist and janosh, if you're really interested in changing my mind, name calling is the best way to do it.
I don't recall calling you a name.
back when mehrdad yazdani was climbing the starchitect ladder, I had a gig with the firm where he was getting polished. earned a sweet $12/hour in 1995 there. there was also an intern from texas tech/UT? that was doing his work study gig. needless to say, when things got slow, I got the ax versus the cheaper student labor who had a six month contract.
I hope somebody from sci-arc or the AIA mails the architect's code of ethic to the artiste and tells him to knock it off.
if you volunteer your time, the you should be free to set your own hours and choose tasks to work on. if you are being told what to do, then you are an employee and better get paid.
One other thing: the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act holds that it's illegal for an employer to offer employment for anything less than minimum wage except for full time students. Even in that case, the hour limitations and provision for breaks are still in effect.
http://www.dol.gov/dol/allcfr/ESA/Title_29/Part_519/29CFR519.11.htm
will you be taking a vow of silence?
As I understand it the "Vito Acconci Studio" is able to offer architecture as a service - which they do - because several licensed archtects work there. If this is the case, then they fall under labor laws just like any professional firm.
I agree with rationalist, taking an unpaid "internship" - unless you are a student getting school credit for it - is selfich and stupid. Offering one is unethical at the least.
on second, why not make it mandatory to pay interns.
besides, labor can be outsourced to developing countries for as little as $6/day. it won't be long before all the interns in the us are paid for their work...there just might not be many of them working.
i'll repeat, we live in a very competitive world and you have to be prepared to sacrifice to achieve what you want.
Also, meta, I have a problem with this false distinction you've set up between "art" and everything else. Art is a business just like anything else. Expertise AND labor both have value.
in his first studio van rijn painted his own pics and would gladly make copies of any paintings that folks brought in.
The crap intern tasks that Vito will have this unpaid schmuck doing for him is quite clearly "labor". As is manifesting any "moment of artistic genius" into reality.
if you want to return to the guild system where parents "interned" their eleven year old boys to painters, masons, armor makers, tanners, fine then you don't need university.
I'm just responding because you still seem to think this is personal with me, xacto. I am thankfully above the level that someone would try to get me to work for free. You may think it's none of your business how much other interns make, but it's partly your fault because you are undercutting the labor market and driving the whole price structure down.
there seems to be alot ppl here saying they are against unpaid internships because it pulls down the wages of the whole profession.
i am not convinced about that.
i don't know how it is in the US, but in EU there is such a clear distinction between interns and 'real' workers that the two salary situations do not effect each other at all.
some ppl do their time as interns, either paid or not - and then they get a job with a contract 'real money'. often the internship is a way in.
we need ayn rand to get involved on this thread - classic objectivist subject matter - minimum wages.
wow, the eu is even more screwed up on this than the americans - a rarity.
i do think anytime you have someone working unpaid it devalues the work that individual is doing. if it is happening en masse, it devalues the work done on the whole at that position. my example above about how firms leverage interns' billable hours at a higher multiplier was meant to show that the work interns are doing for firms should not be undervalued and is in fact often the difference between turning a profit or losing money on a project.
the question is whether the volunteer intern is doing billable work. if they are making blue styrofoam models for a competition that may or may not be a winner, well its speculative and therefore not billable. if you are doing cd's or sd's or dd's or anything that is under a contract, then you should get paid. getting paid and getting laid is what its about people.
vado, that's the other point i was trying to make. many of these starchitect outfits don't operate their office as a real business which throws the whole conventional formula (you know, like making a profit) out the window.
oh and i should have mentioned that nearly all interns in good design based EU offices just cut pieces of blue foam all day.
p2an- there's not such a clear distinction in the US. Here anyone who doesn't have a license is technically an 'intern', so the lines get fuzzy.
rationalist, im just responding because im not intimidated by your condescending remarks. why am i responsible, or at fault, if you cant negotiate a higher wage?
i could afford to accept an unpaid internship in nyc because my family lives there and i have saved up money from working the past 7 years.
should i not make a sound investment because you couldn't make it?
when i accept a job offer the only people i consider are myself and my family. if i think its a good career move, im going to do it. tell me whats irrational about that. i'm not below any moral level, and i dont feel guilty.
I am suprised no one has mentioned the labour wars of the early 1900s (I'm not sure of exact dates). One group of people would work for 2$ an hour, another would work for 1.50$, and so the 2$ workers were told, either quit, or we cut your pay to 1.50, and this continued until the wages were way below anything anyone could afford to survive on. This is why unions were formed, to protect the workers. I am not pro-union, however, in the beginning they did have advantages, and they did work for the people who were slaving away to line the pockets of big business. This is the problem with working for free. I agree that if the work is not making money, then you could be volunteering, but if their is a paying client, then all work should be paid for.
I also fear that much of the work interns to will be outsourced at some point because it will mean more profit for the firm/principal. But until that happens, there is no sense in undercutting your fellow workers just so you can hob-knob with somebody you think is important. Also, it is desrespectful to yourself for him to pay you nothing because it says that what you do isn't important enough to deserve any sort of reward. Basicly, an unpaid intern is just a sycophant, and as such will never attain any respect from the people he serves.
@xacto
you worked 7 yrs but still doing unpaid internship?
xacto
what you seem to fail to understand from your last post is that you,
as part of the profession, should look out for more than just yourself.
unpaid internships should be seen as an insult in this or any
profession. by accepting an unpaid internship you continue to allow
the practice to take place. practices that continue this practice of
not paying even a minimum amount should be shunned not
encouraged...especially in a city like new york.
of course since there are select firms that have more than enough
willing applicants for doing free work..it's not going to stop...so
congrats on being one of the lucky ones not getting paid.
i assume you haven't worked for seven years as an architectural
intern have you? because i can't understand, or see the point,
of anyone working for free at that point in your career.
good luck everyone.
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