xacto walked out of the bar...

I think we should bring back slavery

i must say i am extremely surprised at the outcome of this thread, the overriding feeling seems to be that an individual should not pursue his career in the manner that they see fit - they should for the good of the common man give up an oppotunity to work in an office that they desire. now that is slavery!

i think that if you can afford to go somewhere and work and not get paid that's your call. i could never do that but if your mom and dad have the bucks or you made your money somewhere else as a stockbroker and decide that architecture is your passion and you must work for the instant icon makers of big shiny buildings with holes in them by all means go for it.

no one's making such a strong claim, p2an. i think there is a general feeling though that this is an unethical practice that is harmful to the position of interns. leave the slavery hyperbole out of it.

i was playing with words a bit, following vado's post. but i guess this thread will continue with basically two sides for ever - and that's ok too!

also, i think that a real disconnect exists about how firms operate, make money or don't. my initial thought is that if you want to be a critical/theory/idea based architect then this may be your only route. of course, i could ask, why don't ya come up with your ideas faster, cuz shiny big buildings and their conceptual drivers ain't that tough. its called brainstorming and can be accomplished rather quickly .

people should be free to do whatever they want (work for free)...professionals should not be free to act unethically (hire people to work and not pay them);

also, if people do decide to work for free, they should be aware of the ramifications to the profession...if they choose not to care, than it's their decision...

lastly, and i think it's been written many times here, you will probably benefit/learn more from working a paid position at an architectural firm commited to doing solid responsible buildings than working as an unpaid intern at a starchitect's office...if they pay you nothing, they will treat you like you are worth nothing...

you would have to have truly low self-esteem to accept an unpaid position where you are producing work that is valued enough for the boss to bill for it (and thus make money off you) but where you feel you are so worthless as to not accept payment for it. that is pathetic and i feel badly for anyone so blinded as to their human worth.

i don't care what kind of "learning experience" you think a job is going to be. you carry stuff around in your brain that makes you valuable, and you should be compensated for it. do you truly think you have so little to offer a firm that you are getting compensated simply from watching them do stuff? for pete's sake. it's a fucking job. all of life is a fucking learning opportunity. you're worth more than being disrespected like that.

your delivery is hilarious, myriam.

honestly, working for free never occured to me (perhaps due to my having grown up in a family with scarce financial resources). i wasn't aware that the phenomenon existed in the architecture profession until i read about it on this site, however long ago that was.

i, like p2an, am not convinced that this practice actually brings down the wage in the profession at large. it seems more like this is something that some choose to engage in, and that some do not (speaking of both employers and employees). there are plenty of jobs out there for those of us that like to be paid for our services (and by 'job' i mean 'paying job').

as far as ethics go, i haven't read any arguments above that relieve the employer from their responsibility to pay all employees at least the minimum legal wage. this is absolutely an unethical and illegal practice for an employer to engage in, whether they are billing for your work or not.

if someone wants to work for free, that is their prerogative, and although it may have repurcussions for the profession as a whole, i'm not too worried about it. there are plenty of places that do remarkable architecture and are willing to pay young people to take part in that process.

this leads me to my point. if an architect/architecture studio is paying you, it is likely that they actually value your contribution. by paying you, they are clearly placing value in your time and what you offer. in an environment where you are valued, you are more likely to make a meaningful contribution to the work being produced.

you sez it much better than me, AP!

reminds me of a point i forgot... why would you want to "learn" from someone who thinks you're worthless? how do you think you'll
learn from someone who thinks you're worthless? what do you think you'll be taught, beyond how to suck up to arrogance?

the whole thing smacks of immaturity and low self-esteem. ahoy, bad relationship ahead!