i cannot believe that there isn't more concern. during the late 90s and early 00s, there was such a huge increase in credit-related spending. inevitably, there had to come a time when that debt needed to be repaid. that time seems to be now or fast approaching. during which time, people will not have money to reinvest in the economy, leading to decreased sales, etc. i see a major recession in the coming years, and defaults on subprime mortgages are only the leading edge.
sorry, i don't mean to be fearmongering. i have a limited understanding of economics. it's more an observational understanding than it is an educated one. i posted this wondering if anyone who knows more about economics could dispell some of my concerns, but perhaps this is not the right forum for it.
yup, it's pretty crazy. However, I have not noticed any slow down in development (quite the contrary). So far, most of the foreclosures have been limited to the lower end.
We'll see. One more example that Bush's "let the people spend their own pay checks on what they want" is stupid.
People are stupid and American's certainly can't plan more than a day in advance.
on all of these homeflipper shows, you see people selling very modest 3 bd/2 bath homes for ridiculous amounts of money ($500k-700k). i can't imagine that it is the wealthy that are buying these homes; the homes are too modest. i imagine instead it is the middle class who bought them right before the real estate bubble burst financed on jerry-rigged loans (no money down, ARMs). with home prices now declining there's a good chance that these people will have to sell their homes for less than they bought them.
well, the "limited to the low end" is going to put more than 7 million US families out of their homes, and bankrupt at least four multi-billion financial corporations. And in fact, if you look at the details, the damage is much more significant for small real-estate investors -- people who has some excess income over the past decade and a half, and were talked into teaser rate mortgages to invest in rental properties or other real estate. Most of them won't loose their homes, but will loose a large portion of their savings trying to bail themselves out.
the general economic issue however, is that in order for the market to keep working on a daily basis, everyone actively engaged in the market has to be focused on "making market" -- that is, they have to make all of the commodities for sale sell eventually at some price. what we appear to be seeing is that the sub-prime collapse will reduce total volume of sales in the market this year by 14% (conservatively) which will have to translate to a price adjustment over the next few years. So, we can expect prices to remain stagnant in most markets for several years, and even drop in a few hyper-inflated markets (mostly upper middle class neighbourhoods in large cities).
Basically, long term this will have an effect on residential construction much like the dot-com bubble bursting; it will clear the amateurs out of the market.
on my way to work, which is a 5 mile drive through the San Fernando Valley, I see 12 new [20-50 unit] apartment buildings in construction. Developers are having a field day preparing for you to lose <i>your "low-end"<i/> home (which in LA, is anything under $500k). Also, with all the new renters, rent prices will continue to increase.
it has been my experience that many people have become accustomed to spending beyond their means. case in point, i have several couple friends who have, in the last five years, purchased huge new homes through attractive selling deals such as 0% down, adjustable rate mortgages, etc. all while earning a salary which is very close to what i earn. when all of their earnings are tied into a house with no savings or safety net, and the jobs falls through, then the house soon follows. keeping up with the jones' can lead to real heartache
No problem on the fear mongering. I read the links off this website almost daily. That stuff scares me. I think best case scenario is we end up with 1970's style stagflation, which was ended via Paul Volkers 20% interest rates, which we need now to save the value of the USD. Worst case is that the fed reserve and congress devalue the USD to essentially worthless status to erase the national debt. Basically end up with what Brazil and Argentina had in the late 90's...but since America is the only net importing nation in the world the entire global economy is going to hell in a handbasket then. Either case, hope you aren't planning to cash out a 401k for a good long time.
I remember walking into a bar when the tech stocks collasped and watching the price of microsoft stock literally go down by the minute. There was this guy sitting at the bar with his face glued to the TV and as I walked in and glanced at the TV I laughed and said something smart. He turned towards me and didn't say anything, but the pain and fear in his face was such that I can still picture it to this day. He was about to cry and it was obvious that he was losing a ton of money. Alot of money was made during the tech boom and a lot of that wealth changed hands when it collasped because amateurs didn't understand what they were doing.
That is starting to happen now with Real Estate. Fear really has nothing to do with it. You're either prepared for it or not. So while this may be scary to someone who doesn't understand it, it is very exhilerating to someone who does.
Humbly, I cannot express enough the need for education if you are going to invest in real estate. It doesn't have to be four years of college. It can be four years at the public library, but above all education is the biggest difference in my opinion between the winners and the losers here.
Unfortunately it's not just amateur investors who are going to be hurt. Many of the subprime loans were given to low income people who couldn't qualify for regular loans. Many of these foreclosures are hitting the inner city. The American dream which was within grasp for some for the first time will be gone again. The ramifications of this to the inner city might scare me a little.
that's why i'm gonna buy a winnabego sittin' on 22"s...hahaha
you think you see house rates in the hole..... drive around the detroit suburbs and you see at least 10 homes for sale per block...... and i think the guy i rent from has one of those bullshit arm loans or something.,... i think his mortgage went up like 500 a month over some b.s.
We've all developed this idea that we are safe, that "someone" has double-checked everything for us and if a 'professional' says we should jump, we'll do it.... I feel like people think the government will stop them from hurting themselves. (totally stupid, it never could) We've lost the ability to think on our own and be responsible, im afraid it's undermining our entire democracy.
save all your money and move to a third world country, live like royalty until you die of some unknown jungle disease. that's my advice.
not to be too much of a panic-driving fearmonger, or anything...
i'm not sure it's fair to say, "it's only the amateurs that get burned. sorry, sucka." it's people's homes. perhaps some looked at it as an investment, but many were simply looking to buy a house to live in. now many people are saddled with mortgages they can't pay off; they will likely have to sell their homes at a loss with the slumping real estate market; and now with the recent tighening of bankruptcy laws, they have no safety valve to get out. i'm just not sure our country as seen something like this of this magnitude. the massive increase in the prime lending rate in the eighties probably did help us stem off massive inflation then; i wonder if similar drastic measures will have to be taken now.
jafilder, if you read further, wurdan specifically says, "Unfortunately it's not just amateur investors who are going to be hurt. Many of the subprime loans were given to low income people who couldn't qualify for regular loans."
I agree that people need to trust their own instinct and judgement instead of relying on professionals so much. Yes, they are professionals, but they're looking out for #1, and we should be too.
you're right, rationalist. everyone should have been a little smarter, but the difference between what's going on now with real estate and the dot.com bubble burst is there are going to be a lot more innocent "victims" in real estate, people who weren't necessarily making an "investment" the same way people buying shares of microsoft were in the late 90s (wonder if google may be headed for a similar fate?). when the dot.com bubble burst, the rich got poorer. this time around, the poor are getting poorer, and they really have no where to go.
i'd probably be much more worried and/or outraged if i understood the loan/mortgage industry at all. my wife is sort of in the same boat. we protect ourselves the only way we know how: since we don't understand things in a sophisticated way, we keep our investments and our financial commitments and debt load simple.
we have a mortgage but almost no other debt. we don't use debt to leverage money to use but therefore don't really have the potential to make a whole lot more than our incomes provide. hell, i don't even understand how my 401k works; i just trust that it will.
all that said, i feel like i'm pretty educated and - except for blindspots/disinterest in financial issues - i'm pretty smart about how i manage money. if i don't understand the implications of all this, i know that there are millions of others who have even less of a clue.
Schiff, however, said, "What [the optimists] don't realize is that consumer spending has been a function of easy credit and the high housing market. The idea that Americans will keep spending is wrong. With [lower home equity and less access to credit] where're they going to get the money?"
i completely agree, because i have seen it in my own life. after buying the house and having to pay off huge student loan debts, there's little left for typical consumer spending. i feel i am fairly representative of my generation. the subprime lenders may be feeling hardest now, but i think it will move it's way up to at least the middle class. are the economic problems of middle class workers finally going to have some effect on the fat cats at the top who are moving the real money around?
that article reminds me of a story I just posted on the intern salary thread about a well known architect in NYC not paying their employees enough to qualify for an apartment rental in the city, but saying that they would lie to the real estate companies on behalf of their employees, saying they paid them more $$$ so that they could get an apartment
the big thing isn't people loosing $ or thier own homes (altho that is big) the big problem is something called the money multiplier, a theory that suggests money spread thoughout the economy by credit, and we don't actually have as much money, physically, as we have on the books.
Like in 'its a wonderful life', if people stop lending, the money supply starts to contract, and everyone will have less money.... think of russian dolls where the big one gets stuck. No one gets any dolls.
(it's a debated theory but taught in many economics texts i had in school)
the problem is you can't keep printing more money to fill the void or else you have massive inflation. that's the catch 22 right now as i understand it. you can't spend your way out of this mess because there isn't enough money to spend. is this a correct understanding of how things stand?
i cant wait until China decides that they really want to fuck with us....good thing the Bushes and Cheneys have set up a nice place in Iraq for them to retire to
While I am mildly concerned with the sub-prime bust with regards to how it affects the economy as a whole, it serves as a reminder to me to continue to live within my means. Sure, I could "own" a larger house or a nicer car, but I have a 30 yaer fixed note rather than adjustable one and no car payments.
the stock market rallied today after the central reserve dumped $38 billion into the market. more money that you can borrow (so long as you are not subprime)! this somehow placated the speculators on wall street another day.
on a related note, i supported our local economy this evening by going out for a burrito.
One issue that we are not looking at is how the credit squeeze has affected good people with good credit.
With a number of mortgage companies going BK there was a time this week where the banks did not accept applications for new loans. I was talking to a banker this week and since no one can get a loan he is now worried about his job.
If you were transferring to another city and had to sell your house (or condo), you would be in a world of hurt. A jumbo mortgage this week went up 1% point in one day! It is now at 8% for a fixed rate mortgage.
In our area deflation of housing is approaching 15%. All of our onezy twozy developers are dead in the water
Of course there is no such thing as a national housing market, so while interesting, it is fairly useless to draw conclusions about as we all know real estate is very local. Watch it to the end, that is the best part.
using the term "good people with good credit" is perjorative and insulting. many "good" people have been forced into bad credit situations via layoffs, health problems, divorce, etc. the idea that a credit rating is a barometer of a person's "goodness" is fucked up. if these loans are so awful well they shouldn't be legal. it's predatory and takes advantage of people who are trying to live the fucked up american dream.
the fact that a senator is trying to influence the policymaking of the federal reserve as we go through a very precarious economic time worries me. i still absolutely believe that the biggest concern is not an economic recession (which to me seems inevitable), but the possibility of increased inflation. when are people going to realize that the best way out of this problem is to tighten the bootstraps and reduce debt rather than try to spend our way out of this, only making matters worse. debt is a crisis in this country from working-class families all the way up to capitol hill.
vado- I don't know that I agree that those loans shouldn't be legal, though I absolutely agree that the goodness of your credit does not necessarily reflect the goodness of your being. Shouldn't people be allowed to take the risk? Shouldn't they be responsible for their own risk taking? Maybe there should big a big warning on all the paperwork (akin to the warnings on cigarettes, "park at your own risk", etc.) so that you absolutely can't escape the knowledge that it is a real risk, but I think that taking the availability off the market is a sort of mother-knows-best policy that is inconsistant with the ideals of the country.
rationalist...as long as people are aware they are taking that risk...a lot of these high risk loans seem to have been mis-represented to a lot of people who didn't care to understand what they were really getting into...
What is so hard about understanding that a $400,000 mortgage for $800 a month is not sustainable? There's american math for you. I guess if you "count on" 20% annual appreciation and a re-fi every 5 years...
"Richard Hagar, a veteran real estate appraiser and expert witness, also blames appraisers. According to him, many of them puffed up home values to make deals work. "We saw some really Mickey-Mouse things," he said, "A $200,000 house would come in at $300,000. When appraisers puff up values, they can be sued; I heartily recommend it.""
Ha! I might know somebody that used to work for an appraisers office. He would look at a new construction house - no landscaping, no patio/deck, unfinished basement - and appraise it as if all was done. His reasoning, they are trying to refi and get money to do all those things. Two years later that couple still hasn't done any of that but has a couple new SUVs and a new plasma screen.
i don't care how misled one can be, but 1.95% Fixed APR on a mortgage is fiction, and every one who is in the market to buy/sell/refinance should know that...
Subprime Mortgage Defaults
Is anyone concerned about this?
i cannot believe that there isn't more concern. during the late 90s and early 00s, there was such a huge increase in credit-related spending. inevitably, there had to come a time when that debt needed to be repaid. that time seems to be now or fast approaching. during which time, people will not have money to reinvest in the economy, leading to decreased sales, etc. i see a major recession in the coming years, and defaults on subprime mortgages are only the leading edge.
scares the sh*t out of me so I come to archinect and forget about reality.
sorry, i don't mean to be fearmongering. i have a limited understanding of economics. it's more an observational understanding than it is an educated one. i posted this wondering if anyone who knows more about economics could dispell some of my concerns, but perhaps this is not the right forum for it.
yup, it's pretty crazy. However, I have not noticed any slow down in development (quite the contrary). So far, most of the foreclosures have been limited to the lower end.
We'll see. One more example that Bush's "let the people spend their own pay checks on what they want" is stupid.
People are stupid and American's certainly can't plan more than a day in advance.
I am certainly keeping an eye out for bargains.
on all of these homeflipper shows, you see people selling very modest 3 bd/2 bath homes for ridiculous amounts of money ($500k-700k). i can't imagine that it is the wealthy that are buying these homes; the homes are too modest. i imagine instead it is the middle class who bought them right before the real estate bubble burst financed on jerry-rigged loans (no money down, ARMs). with home prices now declining there's a good chance that these people will have to sell their homes for less than they bought them.
well, the "limited to the low end" is going to put more than 7 million US families out of their homes, and bankrupt at least four multi-billion financial corporations. And in fact, if you look at the details, the damage is much more significant for small real-estate investors -- people who has some excess income over the past decade and a half, and were talked into teaser rate mortgages to invest in rental properties or other real estate. Most of them won't loose their homes, but will loose a large portion of their savings trying to bail themselves out.
the general economic issue however, is that in order for the market to keep working on a daily basis, everyone actively engaged in the market has to be focused on "making market" -- that is, they have to make all of the commodities for sale sell eventually at some price. what we appear to be seeing is that the sub-prime collapse will reduce total volume of sales in the market this year by 14% (conservatively) which will have to translate to a price adjustment over the next few years. So, we can expect prices to remain stagnant in most markets for several years, and even drop in a few hyper-inflated markets (mostly upper middle class neighbourhoods in large cities).
Basically, long term this will have an effect on residential construction much like the dot-com bubble bursting; it will clear the amateurs out of the market.
on my way to work, which is a 5 mile drive through the San Fernando Valley, I see 12 new [20-50 unit] apartment buildings in construction. Developers are having a field day preparing for you to lose <i>your "low-end"<i/> home (which in LA, is anything under $500k). Also, with all the new renters, rent prices will continue to increase.
it has been my experience that many people have become accustomed to spending beyond their means. case in point, i have several couple friends who have, in the last five years, purchased huge new homes through attractive selling deals such as 0% down, adjustable rate mortgages, etc. all while earning a salary which is very close to what i earn. when all of their earnings are tied into a house with no savings or safety net, and the jobs falls through, then the house soon follows. keeping up with the jones' can lead to real heartache
No problem on the fear mongering. I read the links off this website almost daily. That stuff scares me. I think best case scenario is we end up with 1970's style stagflation, which was ended via Paul Volkers 20% interest rates, which we need now to save the value of the USD. Worst case is that the fed reserve and congress devalue the USD to essentially worthless status to erase the national debt. Basically end up with what Brazil and Argentina had in the late 90's...but since America is the only net importing nation in the world the entire global economy is going to hell in a handbasket then. Either case, hope you aren't planning to cash out a 401k for a good long time.
I remember walking into a bar when the tech stocks collasped and watching the price of microsoft stock literally go down by the minute. There was this guy sitting at the bar with his face glued to the TV and as I walked in and glanced at the TV I laughed and said something smart. He turned towards me and didn't say anything, but the pain and fear in his face was such that I can still picture it to this day. He was about to cry and it was obvious that he was losing a ton of money. Alot of money was made during the tech boom and a lot of that wealth changed hands when it collasped because amateurs didn't understand what they were doing.
That is starting to happen now with Real Estate. Fear really has nothing to do with it. You're either prepared for it or not. So while this may be scary to someone who doesn't understand it, it is very exhilerating to someone who does.
Humbly, I cannot express enough the need for education if you are going to invest in real estate. It doesn't have to be four years of college. It can be four years at the public library, but above all education is the biggest difference in my opinion between the winners and the losers here.
Unfortunately it's not just amateur investors who are going to be hurt. Many of the subprime loans were given to low income people who couldn't qualify for regular loans. Many of these foreclosures are hitting the inner city. The American dream which was within grasp for some for the first time will be gone again. The ramifications of this to the inner city might scare me a little.
that's why i'm gonna buy a winnabego sittin' on 22"s...hahaha
you think you see house rates in the hole..... drive around the detroit suburbs and you see at least 10 homes for sale per block...... and i think the guy i rent from has one of those bullshit arm loans or something.,... i think his mortgage went up like 500 a month over some b.s.
time to get a side job
We've all developed this idea that we are safe, that "someone" has double-checked everything for us and if a 'professional' says we should jump, we'll do it.... I feel like people think the government will stop them from hurting themselves. (totally stupid, it never could) We've lost the ability to think on our own and be responsible, im afraid it's undermining our entire democracy.
save all your money and move to a third world country, live like royalty until you die of some unknown jungle disease. that's my advice.
not to be too much of a panic-driving fearmonger, or anything...
i'm not sure it's fair to say, "it's only the amateurs that get burned. sorry, sucka." it's people's homes. perhaps some looked at it as an investment, but many were simply looking to buy a house to live in. now many people are saddled with mortgages they can't pay off; they will likely have to sell their homes at a loss with the slumping real estate market; and now with the recent tighening of bankruptcy laws, they have no safety valve to get out. i'm just not sure our country as seen something like this of this magnitude. the massive increase in the prime lending rate in the eighties probably did help us stem off massive inflation then; i wonder if similar drastic measures will have to be taken now.
jafilder, if you read further, wurdan specifically says, "Unfortunately it's not just amateur investors who are going to be hurt. Many of the subprime loans were given to low income people who couldn't qualify for regular loans."
I agree that people need to trust their own instinct and judgement instead of relying on professionals so much. Yes, they are professionals, but they're looking out for #1, and we should be too.
you're right, rationalist. everyone should have been a little smarter, but the difference between what's going on now with real estate and the dot.com bubble burst is there are going to be a lot more innocent "victims" in real estate, people who weren't necessarily making an "investment" the same way people buying shares of microsoft were in the late 90s (wonder if google may be headed for a similar fate?). when the dot.com bubble burst, the rich got poorer. this time around, the poor are getting poorer, and they really have no where to go.
i'd probably be much more worried and/or outraged if i understood the loan/mortgage industry at all. my wife is sort of in the same boat. we protect ourselves the only way we know how: since we don't understand things in a sophisticated way, we keep our investments and our financial commitments and debt load simple.
we have a mortgage but almost no other debt. we don't use debt to leverage money to use but therefore don't really have the potential to make a whole lot more than our incomes provide. hell, i don't even understand how my 401k works; i just trust that it will.
all that said, i feel like i'm pretty educated and - except for blindspots/disinterest in financial issues - i'm pretty smart about how i manage money. if i don't understand the implications of all this, i know that there are millions of others who have even less of a clue.
A quote from the story:
Schiff, however, said, "What [the optimists] don't realize is that consumer spending has been a function of easy credit and the high housing market. The idea that Americans will keep spending is wrong. With [lower home equity and less access to credit] where're they going to get the money?"
i completely agree, because i have seen it in my own life. after buying the house and having to pay off huge student loan debts, there's little left for typical consumer spending. i feel i am fairly representative of my generation. the subprime lenders may be feeling hardest now, but i think it will move it's way up to at least the middle class. are the economic problems of middle class workers finally going to have some effect on the fat cats at the top who are moving the real money around?
drhousingbubble.blogspot.com
regional:
Denver
Baltimore
Sacramento
San Diego
I have more, if you ask, I've researched it, this is a hobby of mine.
Real Estate will ALWAYS go up" <- I am so tired of hearing this.
dumbfuck cant afford a house....dumbfuck goes in over his or her head and borrows to much $$$...dumbfuck fucked
Strawbeary
that article reminds me of a story I just posted on the intern salary thread about a well known architect in NYC not paying their employees enough to qualify for an apartment rental in the city, but saying that they would lie to the real estate companies on behalf of their employees, saying they paid them more $$$ so that they could get an apartment
the big thing isn't people loosing $ or thier own homes (altho that is big) the big problem is something called the money multiplier, a theory that suggests money spread thoughout the economy by credit, and we don't actually have as much money, physically, as we have on the books.
Like in 'its a wonderful life', if people stop lending, the money supply starts to contract, and everyone will have less money.... think of russian dolls where the big one gets stuck. No one gets any dolls.
(it's a debated theory but taught in many economics texts i had in school)
the problem is you can't keep printing more money to fill the void or else you have massive inflation. that's the catch 22 right now as i understand it. you can't spend your way out of this mess because there isn't enough money to spend. is this a correct understanding of how things stand?
i cant wait until China decides that they really want to fuck with us....good thing the Bushes and Cheneys have set up a nice place in Iraq for them to retire to
While I am mildly concerned with the sub-prime bust with regards to how it affects the economy as a whole, it serves as a reminder to me to continue to live within my means. Sure, I could "own" a larger house or a nicer car, but I have a 30 yaer fixed note rather than adjustable one and no car payments.
If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
inflation is also called the stupid man's tax.
the stock market rallied today after the central reserve dumped $38 billion into the market. more money that you can borrow (so long as you are not subprime)! this somehow placated the speculators on wall street another day.
on a related note, i supported our local economy this evening by going out for a burrito.
The quote I've always heard/read is
"Real estate will always make money, it just depends on who owns it when it does".
One issue that we are not looking at is how the credit squeeze has affected good people with good credit.
With a number of mortgage companies going BK there was a time this week where the banks did not accept applications for new loans. I was talking to a banker this week and since no one can get a loan he is now worried about his job.
If you were transferring to another city and had to sell your house (or condo), you would be in a world of hurt. A jumbo mortgage this week went up 1% point in one day! It is now at 8% for a fixed rate mortgage.
In our area deflation of housing is approaching 15%. All of our onezy twozy developers are dead in the water
Of course there is no such thing as a national housing market, so while interesting, it is fairly useless to draw conclusions about as we all know real estate is very local. Watch it to the end, that is the best part.
using the term "good people with good credit" is perjorative and insulting. many "good" people have been forced into bad credit situations via layoffs, health problems, divorce, etc. the idea that a credit rating is a barometer of a person's "goodness" is fucked up. if these loans are so awful well they shouldn't be legal. it's predatory and takes advantage of people who are trying to live the fucked up american dream.
I am losing out because my mortgage broker friends aren't buying me drinks anymore. Poo.
the fact that a senator is trying to influence the policymaking of the federal reserve as we go through a very precarious economic time worries me. i still absolutely believe that the biggest concern is not an economic recession (which to me seems inevitable), but the possibility of increased inflation. when are people going to realize that the best way out of this problem is to tighten the bootstraps and reduce debt rather than try to spend our way out of this, only making matters worse. debt is a crisis in this country from working-class families all the way up to capitol hill.
vado- I don't know that I agree that those loans shouldn't be legal, though I absolutely agree that the goodness of your credit does not necessarily reflect the goodness of your being. Shouldn't people be allowed to take the risk? Shouldn't they be responsible for their own risk taking? Maybe there should big a big warning on all the paperwork (akin to the warnings on cigarettes, "park at your own risk", etc.) so that you absolutely can't escape the knowledge that it is a real risk, but I think that taking the availability off the market is a sort of mother-knows-best policy that is inconsistant with the ideals of the country.
rationalist...as long as people are aware they are taking that risk...a lot of these high risk loans seem to have been mis-represented to a lot of people who didn't care to understand what they were really getting into...
Exactly, and I'd rather see lenders gone after for their advertising tactics, than eliminate the option entirely.
What is so hard about understanding that a $400,000 mortgage for $800 a month is not sustainable? There's american math for you. I guess if you "count on" 20% annual appreciation and a re-fi every 5 years...
ha, I love this quote:
"Richard Hagar, a veteran real estate appraiser and expert witness, also blames appraisers. According to him, many of them puffed up home values to make deals work. "We saw some really Mickey-Mouse things," he said, "A $200,000 house would come in at $300,000. When appraisers puff up values, they can be sued; I heartily recommend it.""
Ha! I might know somebody that used to work for an appraisers office. He would look at a new construction house - no landscaping, no patio/deck, unfinished basement - and appraise it as if all was done. His reasoning, they are trying to refi and get money to do all those things. Two years later that couple still hasn't done any of that but has a couple new SUVs and a new plasma screen.
i don't care how misled one can be, but 1.95% Fixed APR on a mortgage is fiction, and every one who is in the market to buy/sell/refinance should know that...
might be same or similar story.
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