I noticed a significant lack of architecture based discussion on the boards lately, and I'm getting tired of arguing America's tax structure and Al Gore's son so welcome to Apu's Architecture Discourses part 4 (I do believe).
I've been in China pretty much all summer and was in Beijing a few weeks ago. I was actually able to lay eyes on the Beijing Olympic Stadium, which is about 8000000 times more epic than in the photographs.
If you don't already know, it's pretty much a massive tangle of steel lattice work encircling a massive concrete bowl which contains all the seating. Apparently in H & deM's original brief the lattice work skin (if you can call 2m thick members of bent steel a lattice) was supposed to be structural as well, integrating somehow with the seating "bowl". Yet looking at the stadium it seemed the steel was mostly there for facade/skin, but my god what skin it is.
The scale of it is what hits you first and after all the babbling about the "Chinese-ness" of all the starchitecture going up in Beijing after seeing Tiananmen Sq. and the Forbidden City I have to say that the stadium in its sheer megalomania looks right at home to my eyes. Something like this I feel could only happen in China, whose politicians are using China's explosive wealth and manpower to generate architecture on such epic scales it is simply mind boggling. CCTV generated a similar internal reaction in my mind, but architecture on this kind of biblical scale I feel is no longer possible in the western democracies. The Olympic stadium and CCTV are on a simply different level.
While politically I find the stadium to be massive, overbearing, megalomaniacal and oppressive, as a human being I cannot help but be awed. I have a feeling that is exactly what the powers-that-be had in mind when they commissioned it. It doesn't look that impressive until you see it in person, but London is going to have its work cut out for it in 2012 if they even want to touch the grandeur of this thing.
Thank's I would have guessed the same , but if it is not to much I would ask if you reconised a particular structural "detail" , see I allway's thought each of the frames to follow a particular plane , that mean that when you say bended what I would ask you to recall, is if the frames realy do follow each their plane --- or if each frame are bended in more than one plane. This is a detail that is very difficult to see from the graphics but a very important detail.
...which looks like dog crap blown up, but from what i could tell the steel members did follow the curvature (ie they were already bent like that when they reached the site).
OK, yay for the architecture-related topic, but I'm going to slightly derail things by going on an anti-China rant:
I just packed up about $75 worth of Thomas the Train toys and sent them back to the maker as part of a recall - lead paint used in China, and one of potentially half a dozen monthly recalls this year of China-made toys for excessive lead.
I also have no Veggie Booty - one of the few ways I get green vegetables into my son - on my shelves because the flavoring was tainted with salmonella - made in China.
China is booming right now, and from my admittedly simplistic view it is entirely based on morally questionable activities.
So when you say the stadium is massive, overbearing, megalomaniacal and oppressive, I can't help but agree and I can't help but not be able to see any beauty in it at all. In fact, I'll add "terrifying" to the list.
So is that reaction similar to what China felt 125 years ago when viewing the buildings at the Chicago World's Fair?
OK, rant over.
To go back to more architectural discussion: I've not been much impressed by H&dM's larger scale projects, because what I always loved about their early work was their passionate use of materials in perverse ways. The DeYoung seems to keep in this vein, but I don't think the bird's nest is as lovely, especially given, Apurimac, your consideration of the steel here as more "skin" than structure.
L.B. I apriciate your comments , -- but it is so so so difficult for me , when I remember questions like, "how do you keep out the rain".
Grilly real trilling. I promise to, to get back on topic.
am planning to go see later this year. it looks amazing to me. on other hand prada is now kind of boring to me, so perhaps i am just underexposed to the project.
i totally understand you LB. i am entirely paranoid about buying ANYTHING plastic for my kids, and we always check food for source of origin. nice thing about japanese protectionist tendencies is that food made in japan is labeled as such...so thats what we eat. but probably our tv and furniture and all the rest were made in china...there is no escaping the nation.
Anyway --- I think I will forget about overengineering, and I will forget about calculating the forces, about how different forces will act within a complex structure, forget all those arguments --- as I am quite sure none of this has been calculated before ,maybe except the weight, ,with this amazing structure ,--- wouldn't you agrea ?
Well, LB, there's alot of good people here who are making lives better for themselves and not throwing huge amounts of lead into kid's toys. There are issues for sure, massive swaths of the country side are off limits to westerners/tourists for whatever reason the CCP deems. In many ways though, life is getting better here for people. I'm actually suprised that this is the first developing country i've been in who's major cities are devoid of slums. The country is capitalism unleashed and it brings out the best and worst in everybody. The thing is though the U.S. has had plenty of blemishes on its own track record with things like food poisoning and environmental issues that weren't truly addressed until our economy slowed to the point the government could step in to regulate things. China has been more proactive in its early years of development when it comes to environmental regulation than the states ever was during our industrial revolution, and even though my lungs burned in Beijing the government is at least aware of the problem and is taking steps like Dongtan Eco-city to alleviate then. It could be too little too late though, and only time will tell.
Agreed with everything you just posted, Apu, especially that the US has plenty of dirtiness in its past - which is why I bring up the 1893 World's Fair.
Lately, in the quest for a balanced view, I am always trying to compare my reactions to other circumstances, typically historical.
And sorry to derail the thread.
So back to the architecture: is this stadium actually bigger than a typical stadium? Say the Az Cardinals Stadium by Eisenmann?
And does anyone know: IS the skin/steel truly an advanced structural system, or does it just look cool?
Good morning folks....LB, Vin, Apu....it's been quite some time since I've chimmed in with any comments. Sad to hear that thigns have been derailled (sorry LB) so to speak as of late.
I suppose whilst I do sympathize with your statemenst (LB and Jump) I can't for the life of me understand this notion that most americans (me being one of them) have over fear. If it's not this...then it's that. WHen are we going to stop listening to the nonsense of everything that the media spews? I understand your concern for your kids, but realize this....when you were growing up and your parents did their best to raise you...you didnt' die cause you had played with a train set that was made in XXX country, did you? I know I am being a bit broad here, and it has nothing to do with questioning your parently skills, AT ALL, please don't misunderstand me. I am just sooo fricken tired of hearing (esp on NPR) about the state of fear that we all here (and only in America) live under! When is it going to stop.
Sorry Apu....back to the discussion....I suppose that I read between the lines. I understand what you mean when you spoke of the massiveness or the omnipresence of it. It's real and surreal all at the same time. It's like seeking the forbidden city (when you first layed eyes on it and stood there before it) and as you absorbed the massiveness of it, the wheels of thought started to spin. Grant it, I don't think that I am suggesting that H&dM's project is quite in the same line as some of those more breathtaking structures of 1000s of years ago, yet, in today's world, it is. It's those projects that, much like the great wall of china, took grand # of workers and time to build. Again, this project has technology on its' side when you compare, and so it's not quite the same, yet because of the timetable (I can only imagine) it must be under the gun, hence quite a frenzy of work going on.
This is architecture at another scale and it wouldn't happen in the west. The reason is that there's an incredible amount of governement money being directed towards these projects to make a statement.
There's a discusion to be had about progressive or critical architects from the west such as H+dM and rem plying their trades in service of puffing up a totalitarian government ...
If you compare this project to the london 2012 olympic stadium - which is so strapped for cash because the parliamentarians can't justify spending on a pretty stadium to their consituents/ taxpayers/ electors, you begin to see why "there" is so different and alluring when compared to here.
To clarify , -- and stay with the engineering issue I rigidly focus ,I don't know if you realise why I ask, but please let me explain.
See if each frame follow it's own flat plane and is only bended in the planes direction, then I am sure this realy are 100 pct. a wonder. But mastery don't come by chance, and if compromises been made, if particular frames double curve, well, in that case I realy don't know.
I am sure that if you see what I mean , you know what that tell.
LB, it really does look big, and I mean big. Maybe it's how its designed but it looks truly biblical, like a modern day Coliseum. And i do believe H & deM originally wanted their skin to be structural, but in seeing it in person it looks mostly for skin, although its probably hard to tell from the outside.
my concern is not the grandeur or the whackiness of the design, but what the bigger contextual picture is like. Fuck Context can only be of deliberate value where actually the context either has the ability and the character to fuck back (a charismatic complex very urban environment that cannibalizes the 'detachment' of object architecture) or is so virgin (desert or jungle) that there is an approriateness to being a very obvious manmade structure within nature ... i suspect this design is so introvert, so much of an object because the context did not really matter...it alludes that way, but i cant really judge because i dont see what itll be like within its surroundings.
funny i don't see it as opressive at all. in all the images of it i find it uplifiting and awe-inspiring. i have not considered it as product of chinese regime, but of H+deM so far. this is perhaps naive of me, but i htink the architectuer wil llast longer than the regime and will still be great architecure. it has that quality to me somehow...
i don't want to derail topic, but china and products are not in japanese news that much, so am not lead to worry about pesticide use on veggies etc in china cuz of media...it is purely based on observation. my concerns about plastics and paint and toys come mostly from chemistry class.
L.B. It look cool, and opposite other wild growing structures it's structural framework is not so ugly that is has to be covered. -- you can look right thru and see the system of steel frames, and it is not as confused as say the disney new concert hall, where several layers of framework smoothen the forms and hide how ugly the structure being the actural thing, realy are. Opposite the chinese nest where beauty proberly are hidden in a small structural detail , difficult to reconise when you don't liik for it. But maybe I shuld be sorry to say, that your example are neat and proberly well calculated opposite particular items in the Tinhat-Movement.
squirelly it's less fear than anger, because I know someone is cutting corners and profiting from it, and that makes me furious because in my own business transactions I don't do it (except on my own house of course!).
And that's all I'll say on the topic because I really want to keep this architectural.
Except that it's all connected: what is the US doing right now that can compare to what China is building? Are we pushing any limits of structure, material, process, development that are being paid for as essentially "research" by our tax dollars and also happen to be incredible architectural statements?
Jeepers I need to get back to work, I'm all wound up. My nerves feel like, um, a bird's nest.
My big concern with the stadium is that unlike some of HdM's previous stadiums this one does not participate in the city. I think that is the reason it is accused of not being 'Chinese' enough, it is separated from Beijing. In fact, the
quality of the structure itself (the 'birdnestness') seems to be hostile to its surroundings. Compare the emphasis on the object in Beijing to other stadiums they have designed that weave themselves into the urban condition.
vin, its hard to talk structures in person, let alone over the net. But its an assembly of beam elements that take both in-plane/axis forces and out-of-plane/axis forces. The frames you speak of are generated by the crossing of these beams. They are spliced together in exactly the same kind of happenstance fashion a bird would build its nest however to accomodate those forces on this scale requires significant structure especially when every connection is unique and the assemblage is non-orthagonal. Don't know if that helps you any.
Oh, and i agree with Squirrely, Americans need to chill about china. Its not nearly as horrifyingly evil as our media would have you think. For example, the gov. is moving huge amounts of people for the expo, but rather than simply evicting them and handing them a check the gov. is buying them new, bigger apartments further out of town. Not as convenient, but thats a better deal than alot of Americans get when our government tries its had at "urban renewal". Like when we get handed a check for "market value" and are shoved off on our merry way as developers use emminent domain to have the government force us off our property to build strip malls.
lb, I agree with you completely and think it's important to remember that as aesthetically, tectonically and so on intriguing the H&deM building is, politics, economics, and so on are all integral to a comprehensive (and accurate) view of architecture. I was very displeased to learn that my school is beginning a study abroad program in China, including inviting members of a school there and the Communist party, to tour our school and architectural facilities. I think there is nothing wrong with a cultural exchange, and in fact it is a very good thing, but that there seemed to be no concern or even discourse about welcoming, promoting and investing in a government and economy built so much in morally questionable activities was astounding. Just as the world (and lately increasingly Americans) is concerned with America's excess and wastefulness, it is important to be critical of and not work in concert with governments and economies with (at least) questionable current policies that will also have long term devasting effects. In any event I'd love to hear more about the skin/structure thing.
Apu - I love the 2nd picture there. It's only once you see that, that you can start to pick out the mains structural lines in the finished tangle.
Also, to follow up on points made by j-turn and Apu, I too think that these games are going to have disasterous concequences for London and the UK in 2012. Given China's economy and it's motive/opportunity to make a statement with these games, London is going to be left with a huge legacy to live up to.
Also, to draw on your point, Quillain, about integration into the surrounding city - it'll be interesting to see how the city integrates into the country as a whole, post-olymic reconstruction. Will there will be much of a hinterland when it comes to benefitting from the games architecturally?
In the UK, financing the olympics has already cost, for example, Scottish arts funding budgets by 70-80%. Seeing as London is sucking up so many national resources, it seems doubly cruel that all the benefits (sports facilities, regeneration etc) will be concentrated at a local level, while the arts scene everywhere else is made to pay.
The biblical scale of buildings like this represents an economic situation that is unmatched anywhere else right now. If the UK attempts to compete in grandeur it'll fail - and to the detriment of much more than just the games.
Apurimac I see that, I guess this is a bit theoretic, but the start point in this among other buildings -- tree-like collums among others --- is sort of Chaos ; how the start point are chaos not order, a birds nest not a well described lattrice and there my question, as if the frames individualy follow their own individual plane , then it is not chaos but order, --- there are some overall idea that also hide untill you maybe see it , and you see there are a great difference between total chaos and chaos with an idear to it.
i think it's too early to judge the general character of the building, especially a building designed H&dM///i've always been pleasantly surprised by how their projects (in material, scale, texture, light) are enhanced in their built form - the photographs of their built work is infinitely superior to their renderings)///meaning, once the building is clad, lid, populated, and experienced as it's meant to be, then it might not seem as terrifying-megalomaniacal as the structural member tend to indicate...based on their previous work, they deserve the benefit of the doubt.
in response to the lack of human scale, and relationship to the city, i think that an olympic stadium has an inherit monumentality...it's supposed to be symbolic...and a bird's nest seems as an appropriate symbol here...
simples: more please on your thought: why is a bird's nest an appropriate symbol for a monumental international sporting complex? Aren't bird's nests nurturing homes for young?
maybe not for a monumental international sporting complex, but for an olympic stadium (which is quite an interesting movement - i participated in a missionary group at atlanta '96). interestingly enough, a lot of the olympic movement is focused (or supposed to be focused) on educating the young...but that's not what i was referring to...
i think the bird's next is an appropriate symbol as it would be recognized internationally, it reflects collaborative spirit (all as one, as the stadium structure, as twigs in the nest), no structural hyerarchy (all members are valued equally)
that's how i was referring to it...thanks for calling me out on it!
Something like this I feel could only happen in China, whose politicians are using China's explosive wealth and manpower to generate architecture on such epic scales it is simply mind boggling. CCTV generated a similar internal reaction in my mind, but architecture on this kind of biblical scale I feel is no longer possible in the western democracies.
Strange to hear words like this coming from an anarchist, Apurimac, you almost sound jealous about what is possible under totilitarian regimes (I kind of am, too).
PS - @liberty bell - 'I also have no Veggie Booty' is one of the funniest sentences I've read today.
"One *could* say that those hungry little baby birds are competing with one another for the worm, right?" yup! after all, there is only one gold medal, right!!!!
my turn to go on a tangent...i was, and still am, not happy that the olympics will be in china...there are a lot of "questionable" political practices in re. to human rights...oh, and since i am in this rant, why is communism in china ok, and communism in cuba still evil?
so, the questions now come billowing out (in no apparent order or reference):
1) is the problem with the Chinese manufacturing system or with the USA importer who was willing to allow defective (dangerous) products to be sold under their label or importation in order to gain greater profits?
2) why is it that "talking about buildings in china cannot be anything but a political discussion"? why only China? as mentioned later, if the UK is putting all its public funding into a singular event in the London area, what does this say about "centralised" governments? is the production and support for cheap, 2nd rate public buildings in the USA NOT part of a political discussion?
3) is it the HdM building that is 'out-of-place' or not integrated into the city or is that the consequence of the Chinese Olympic authority in choosing the site? no different than Sydney, or Athens or London. and the HdM stadium in Munich is way outside the city - all alone off the motorway.
4) so, we should all hate to support the "promoting and investing in a government and economy built so much in morally questionable activities" - except and unless it was the USA and its use of slaves or low-paid migrant workers?
The United States doesn't censor the internet for political reasons.
The United States doesn't jail people for expressing a political opinion in writing.
The United States isn't able to muster the political will to create such large and willful projects with public money.
Don't get me wrong, the USA does a lot of f*cked up stuff, but let's keep it in perspective here.
Why is it surprising that there are links between active suppression of dissent in a command economy and large grandiose gestures in public architecture? Seems obvious in retrospect. Compare Ground Zero, where there is a lack of political consensus, and a corresponding lack of design focus. Not to mention all the arguments about the money ...
The USA doesn't censor for "political" reasons - its censors for "security" reasons. when was the last time you offered public and visible support for the democratically elected government of Hamas in Gaza?
do you really believe there is no one, at this point in time, in an american jail for expressing an unfavorable 'political' opinion in writing? how far we have come from 1968.
Ground Zero is a lack not of "political consensus" but "social consensus". in America, everyone gets to own their own opinion.
and in terms of perspective, remember, you are asking China to be in 10 years - liberated, open, individulaised capitalist, westernised (with western value system) democracy - something that took the USA 120 years.
The USA doesn't censor for "political" reasons - its censors for "security" reasons. when was the last time you offered public and visible support for the democratically elected government of Hamas in Gaza?
I'm not into that sort of thing, but there are protests for/against Isreal/Hamas every damn day on every college campus in this country. And anyway, isn't the State Department about to send them a bunch of money?
do you really believe there is no one, at this point in time, in an american jail for expressing an unfavorable 'political' opinion in writing? how far we have come from 1968.
Yeah, I do, if you know better, I'd be really interested to hear some names.
Ground Zero is a lack not of "political consensus" but "social consensus". in America, everyone gets to own their own opinion.
Yeah, at least we let the 'social' and the 'political' mix together a little more in the states.
and in terms of perspective, remember, you are asking China to be in 10 years - liberated, open, individulaised capitalist, westernised (with western value system) democracy - something that took the USA 120 years.
Oh, so we should let human rights abuses slide, then? I'm much more worried about the opposite, western governments look at China (and other similar pseudo-democracies ... Singapore?) and see economic prosperity hand in hand with political repression and going 'hmmm ...'
Perspective? China blocked all of flickr for 1.3 billion people because someone uploaded a certain picture of a guy in front of a tank that made some government officials uncomfortable:
there are issues in china, but is it true that we can only consider the stadium according to whether the chinese govt is of a particular political color, with benchmarks of various flavors used depending on each person's own political stripe?
i can understand why terragni and his work would be considered that way...but H+deM, OMA, Steven Holl? even if the architecture is great and the urban fabric changed favorably? if we take that standard then all architecture discussion must first devolve into consideration of the worst face/actions of a nation before even getting to the act of inhabitation, design, etc. there must be a point where such ruminations become counterproductive...and self serving.
i do know a chinese person who is angry with rem for not forcing the govt to change its policies before accepting commision to design cctv, but does not hold hok or som to same standard. the logic goes that rem is a star and he can somehow leverage his position to lead to real change in china. which i am outrageously doubtful of, and i wonder what is really going on...
china does seem to be getting better on most measurable fronts...i still am concerned about the toys in the kidsmeal i might buy at mcdonalds, but that is common sense and has in the end very little to do with the beijing stadium.
speaking of which...i am not sure i understand the criticism of the building as urban planning tool. the number of people that will use the place at one time requires space so a large plaza is not out of place...especially one that is going to be landsaped in a rather nice manner as far as i can tell. from my perspective there is enough urban fabric in beijing that a break from it is not out of place...but it sort of depends on how that falls out. i have seen some awful renderings of visions for the area that make me shudder for the banality of it all...and others published by H+deM that are very attractive. which way is more realistic? sadly, probably it will be like this in the end...
...just because people tend to make bad decisions on this sort of thing more often than not...but i hope it will look more like H+deM themsleves envision it, especially thos versions publishe din A+U...time will tell.
to change context of debate a bit, here are some other pics of building in construction. looks amazing to me.
is the problem with the Chinese manufacturing system or with the USA importer who was willing to allow defective (dangerous) products to be sold under their label or importation in order to gain greater profits?
dlb I think this is a very valid point and it is part of what makes me so angry about the damn Thomas toys. Someone somewhere - most likely an American - is making money off of *not* ensuring that lead paint doesn't end up in our supply chain, and it's especially egregious that this is in children's toys when the evidence of lead's ill effects on child development has been well-documented for 40 years.
But one is also flat-out not allowed to use lead paint in the US, a health standard which China is not controlling, because (in part) it allows China to make product for less cost than could be achieved in America. It is not only western companies profiting on China's product.
Lead in anyone's supply stream and environment is bad. I don't only blame China for importing lead toys, but I do blame them/it in part.
No, for the record, I have absolutely nothing against the Chinese people, I just think the govt. there is kind of evil. I'm not a fan of the US govt. either, but some of my best friends are american!
If I may be so bold, the only thing i'm gonna add to the political aspect of this discussion as far as U.S./China is concerned is that "All governments are created equal" it really is comparing apples and apples when you look at the policies of the U.S. and China respectively over their histories (I had no CLUE we/the CIA put Pol Pot in power). You can ask me to back it up if you like, but you'll get another rant.
I find the notions of urbanism expressed in this thread to be very interesting because it didn't cross my mind, but Beijing is so sprawled out the stadium is actually in a developed part of town, not out in the sticks. Besides that though, you have to take into account that Beijing is a very weird city from an urbanists standpoint. The block sizes are huge and thus the neighborhoods of alley houses (hutongs) are quite massive, almost like a collection of towns in one larger matrix. That said going block to block is almost like leaving one town for another and in older times these hutongs were not surrounded by shops on the main streets, but by walls. Insularity is integral to the urban fabric of Beijing, and in that respect the olympic site being this insular mega-block with object-in-field conditions makes sense.
H & deM In Beijing, I am now a convert
I noticed a significant lack of architecture based discussion on the boards lately, and I'm getting tired of arguing America's tax structure and Al Gore's son so welcome to Apu's Architecture Discourses part 4 (I do believe).
I've been in China pretty much all summer and was in Beijing a few weeks ago. I was actually able to lay eyes on the Beijing Olympic Stadium, which is about 8000000 times more epic than in the photographs.
If you don't already know, it's pretty much a massive tangle of steel lattice work encircling a massive concrete bowl which contains all the seating. Apparently in H & deM's original brief the lattice work skin (if you can call 2m thick members of bent steel a lattice) was supposed to be structural as well, integrating somehow with the seating "bowl". Yet looking at the stadium it seemed the steel was mostly there for facade/skin, but my god what skin it is.
The scale of it is what hits you first and after all the babbling about the "Chinese-ness" of all the starchitecture going up in Beijing after seeing Tiananmen Sq. and the Forbidden City I have to say that the stadium in its sheer megalomania looks right at home to my eyes. Something like this I feel could only happen in China, whose politicians are using China's explosive wealth and manpower to generate architecture on such epic scales it is simply mind boggling. CCTV generated a similar internal reaction in my mind, but architecture on this kind of biblical scale I feel is no longer possible in the western democracies. The Olympic stadium and CCTV are on a simply different level.
While politically I find the stadium to be massive, overbearing, megalomaniacal and oppressive, as a human being I cannot help but be awed. I have a feeling that is exactly what the powers-that-be had in mind when they commissioned it. It doesn't look that impressive until you see it in person, but London is going to have its work cut out for it in 2012 if they even want to touch the grandeur of this thing.
Thank's I would have guessed the same , but if it is not to much I would ask if you reconised a particular structural "detail" , see I allway's thought each of the frames to follow a particular plane , that mean that when you say bended what I would ask you to recall, is if the frames realy do follow each their plane --- or if each frame are bended in more than one plane. This is a detail that is very difficult to see from the graphics but a very important detail.
it may look and actually be insanely complex, yet it's not working for me visually. it looks like an animal's cage at the zoo.
i don't know if this link will work, but in response to your post vin, this is about as good a detail image as any
...which looks like dog crap blown up, but from what i could tell the steel members did follow the curvature (ie they were already bent like that when they reached the site).
OK, yay for the architecture-related topic, but I'm going to slightly derail things by going on an anti-China rant:
I just packed up about $75 worth of Thomas the Train toys and sent them back to the maker as part of a recall - lead paint used in China, and one of potentially half a dozen monthly recalls this year of China-made toys for excessive lead.
I also have no Veggie Booty - one of the few ways I get green vegetables into my son - on my shelves because the flavoring was tainted with salmonella - made in China.
China is booming right now, and from my admittedly simplistic view it is entirely based on morally questionable activities.
So when you say the stadium is massive, overbearing, megalomaniacal and oppressive, I can't help but agree and I can't help but not be able to see any beauty in it at all. In fact, I'll add "terrifying" to the list.
So is that reaction similar to what China felt 125 years ago when viewing the buildings at the Chicago World's Fair?
OK, rant over.
To go back to more architectural discussion: I've not been much impressed by H&dM's larger scale projects, because what I always loved about their early work was their passionate use of materials in perverse ways. The DeYoung seems to keep in this vein, but I don't think the bird's nest is as lovely, especially given, Apurimac, your consideration of the steel here as more "skin" than structure.
L.B. I apriciate your comments , -- but it is so so so difficult for me , when I remember questions like, "how do you keep out the rain".
Grilly real trilling. I promise to, to get back on topic.
am planning to go see later this year. it looks amazing to me. on other hand prada is now kind of boring to me, so perhaps i am just underexposed to the project.
i totally understand you LB. i am entirely paranoid about buying ANYTHING plastic for my kids, and we always check food for source of origin. nice thing about japanese protectionist tendencies is that food made in japan is labeled as such...so thats what we eat. but probably our tv and furniture and all the rest were made in china...there is no escaping the nation.
Anyway --- I think I will forget about overengineering, and I will forget about calculating the forces, about how different forces will act within a complex structure, forget all those arguments --- as I am quite sure none of this has been calculated before ,maybe except the weight, ,with this amazing structure ,--- wouldn't you agrea ?
Well, LB, there's alot of good people here who are making lives better for themselves and not throwing huge amounts of lead into kid's toys. There are issues for sure, massive swaths of the country side are off limits to westerners/tourists for whatever reason the CCP deems. In many ways though, life is getting better here for people. I'm actually suprised that this is the first developing country i've been in who's major cities are devoid of slums. The country is capitalism unleashed and it brings out the best and worst in everybody. The thing is though the U.S. has had plenty of blemishes on its own track record with things like food poisoning and environmental issues that weren't truly addressed until our economy slowed to the point the government could step in to regulate things. China has been more proactive in its early years of development when it comes to environmental regulation than the states ever was during our industrial revolution, and even though my lungs burned in Beijing the government is at least aware of the problem and is taking steps like Dongtan Eco-city to alleviate then. It could be too little too late though, and only time will tell.
Agreed with everything you just posted, Apu, especially that the US has plenty of dirtiness in its past - which is why I bring up the 1893 World's Fair.
Lately, in the quest for a balanced view, I am always trying to compare my reactions to other circumstances, typically historical.
And sorry to derail the thread.
So back to the architecture: is this stadium actually bigger than a typical stadium? Say the Az Cardinals Stadium by Eisenmann?
And does anyone know: IS the skin/steel truly an advanced structural system, or does it just look cool?
Good morning folks....LB, Vin, Apu....it's been quite some time since I've chimmed in with any comments. Sad to hear that thigns have been derailled (sorry LB) so to speak as of late.
I suppose whilst I do sympathize with your statemenst (LB and Jump) I can't for the life of me understand this notion that most americans (me being one of them) have over fear. If it's not this...then it's that. WHen are we going to stop listening to the nonsense of everything that the media spews? I understand your concern for your kids, but realize this....when you were growing up and your parents did their best to raise you...you didnt' die cause you had played with a train set that was made in XXX country, did you? I know I am being a bit broad here, and it has nothing to do with questioning your parently skills, AT ALL, please don't misunderstand me. I am just sooo fricken tired of hearing (esp on NPR) about the state of fear that we all here (and only in America) live under! When is it going to stop.
Sorry Apu....back to the discussion....I suppose that I read between the lines. I understand what you mean when you spoke of the massiveness or the omnipresence of it. It's real and surreal all at the same time. It's like seeking the forbidden city (when you first layed eyes on it and stood there before it) and as you absorbed the massiveness of it, the wheels of thought started to spin. Grant it, I don't think that I am suggesting that H&dM's project is quite in the same line as some of those more breathtaking structures of 1000s of years ago, yet, in today's world, it is. It's those projects that, much like the great wall of china, took grand # of workers and time to build. Again, this project has technology on its' side when you compare, and so it's not quite the same, yet because of the timetable (I can only imagine) it must be under the gun, hence quite a frenzy of work going on.
Anyways....my $.02 cents for the day.
Have a great day everyone
This is architecture at another scale and it wouldn't happen in the west. The reason is that there's an incredible amount of governement money being directed towards these projects to make a statement.
There's a discusion to be had about progressive or critical architects from the west such as H+dM and rem plying their trades in service of puffing up a totalitarian government ...
If you compare this project to the london 2012 olympic stadium - which is so strapped for cash because the parliamentarians can't justify spending on a pretty stadium to their consituents/ taxpayers/ electors, you begin to see why "there" is so different and alluring when compared to here.
To clarify , -- and stay with the engineering issue I rigidly focus ,I don't know if you realise why I ask, but please let me explain.
See if each frame follow it's own flat plane and is only bended in the planes direction, then I am sure this realy are 100 pct. a wonder. But mastery don't come by chance, and if compromises been made, if particular frames double curve, well, in that case I realy don't know.
I am sure that if you see what I mean , you know what that tell.
LB, it really does look big, and I mean big. Maybe it's how its designed but it looks truly biblical, like a modern day Coliseum. And i do believe H & deM originally wanted their skin to be structural, but in seeing it in person it looks mostly for skin, although its probably hard to tell from the outside.
my concern is not the grandeur or the whackiness of the design, but what the bigger contextual picture is like. Fuck Context can only be of deliberate value where actually the context either has the ability and the character to fuck back (a charismatic complex very urban environment that cannibalizes the 'detachment' of object architecture) or is so virgin (desert or jungle) that there is an approriateness to being a very obvious manmade structure within nature ... i suspect this design is so introvert, so much of an object because the context did not really matter...it alludes that way, but i cant really judge because i dont see what itll be like within its surroundings.
funny i don't see it as opressive at all. in all the images of it i find it uplifiting and awe-inspiring. i have not considered it as product of chinese regime, but of H+deM so far. this is perhaps naive of me, but i htink the architectuer wil llast longer than the regime and will still be great architecure. it has that quality to me somehow...
i don't want to derail topic, but china and products are not in japanese news that much, so am not lead to worry about pesticide use on veggies etc in china cuz of media...it is purely based on observation. my concerns about plastics and paint and toys come mostly from chemistry class.
L.B. It look cool, and opposite other wild growing structures it's structural framework is not so ugly that is has to be covered. -- you can look right thru and see the system of steel frames, and it is not as confused as say the disney new concert hall, where several layers of framework smoothen the forms and hide how ugly the structure being the actural thing, realy are. Opposite the chinese nest where beauty proberly are hidden in a small structural detail , difficult to reconise when you don't liik for it. But maybe I shuld be sorry to say, that your example are neat and proberly well calculated opposite particular items in the Tinhat-Movement.
squirelly it's less fear than anger, because I know someone is cutting corners and profiting from it, and that makes me furious because in my own business transactions I don't do it (except on my own house of course!).
And that's all I'll say on the topic because I really want to keep this architectural.
Except that it's all connected: what is the US doing right now that can compare to what China is building? Are we pushing any limits of structure, material, process, development that are being paid for as essentially "research" by our tax dollars and also happen to be incredible architectural statements?
Jeepers I need to get back to work, I'm all wound up. My nerves feel like, um, a bird's nest.
talking about buildings in china cannot be anything but a political discussion.
My big concern with the stadium is that unlike some of HdM's previous stadiums this one does not participate in the city. I think that is the reason it is accused of not being 'Chinese' enough, it is separated from Beijing. In fact, the
quality of the structure itself (the 'birdnestness') seems to be hostile to its surroundings. Compare the emphasis on the object in Beijing to other stadiums they have designed that weave themselves into the urban condition.
vs.
and
oops
That last one is specially good at weaving into the fabric:
http://www.pompeyfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/NewStadiumDetail/0,,10396~1016037,00.html
I do see the Beijing as oppressive, feels like a modernist 'genius' object.
vin, its hard to talk structures in person, let alone over the net. But its an assembly of beam elements that take both in-plane/axis forces and out-of-plane/axis forces. The frames you speak of are generated by the crossing of these beams. They are spliced together in exactly the same kind of happenstance fashion a bird would build its nest however to accomodate those forces on this scale requires significant structure especially when every connection is unique and the assemblage is non-orthagonal. Don't know if that helps you any.
Oh, and i agree with Squirrely, Americans need to chill about china. Its not nearly as horrifyingly evil as our media would have you think. For example, the gov. is moving huge amounts of people for the expo, but rather than simply evicting them and handing them a check the gov. is buying them new, bigger apartments further out of town. Not as convenient, but thats a better deal than alot of Americans get when our government tries its had at "urban renewal". Like when we get handed a check for "market value" and are shoved off on our merry way as developers use emminent domain to have the government force us off our property to build strip malls.
lb, I agree with you completely and think it's important to remember that as aesthetically, tectonically and so on intriguing the H&deM building is, politics, economics, and so on are all integral to a comprehensive (and accurate) view of architecture. I was very displeased to learn that my school is beginning a study abroad program in China, including inviting members of a school there and the Communist party, to tour our school and architectural facilities. I think there is nothing wrong with a cultural exchange, and in fact it is a very good thing, but that there seemed to be no concern or even discourse about welcoming, promoting and investing in a government and economy built so much in morally questionable activities was astounding. Just as the world (and lately increasingly Americans) is concerned with America's excess and wastefulness, it is important to be critical of and not work in concert with governments and economies with (at least) questionable current policies that will also have long term devasting effects. In any event I'd love to hear more about the skin/structure thing.
Apu - I love the 2nd picture there. It's only once you see that, that you can start to pick out the mains structural lines in the finished tangle.
Also, to follow up on points made by j-turn and Apu, I too think that these games are going to have disasterous concequences for London and the UK in 2012. Given China's economy and it's motive/opportunity to make a statement with these games, London is going to be left with a huge legacy to live up to.
Also, to draw on your point, Quillain, about integration into the surrounding city - it'll be interesting to see how the city integrates into the country as a whole, post-olymic reconstruction. Will there will be much of a hinterland when it comes to benefitting from the games architecturally?
In the UK, financing the olympics has already cost, for example, Scottish arts funding budgets by 70-80%. Seeing as London is sucking up so many national resources, it seems doubly cruel that all the benefits (sports facilities, regeneration etc) will be concentrated at a local level, while the arts scene everywhere else is made to pay.
The biblical scale of buildings like this represents an economic situation that is unmatched anywhere else right now. If the UK attempts to compete in grandeur it'll fail - and to the detriment of much more than just the games.
Apurimac I see that, I guess this is a bit theoretic, but the start point in this among other buildings -- tree-like collums among others --- is sort of Chaos ; how the start point are chaos not order, a birds nest not a well described lattrice and there my question, as if the frames individualy follow their own individual plane , then it is not chaos but order, --- there are some overall idea that also hide untill you maybe see it , and you see there are a great difference between total chaos and chaos with an idear to it.
Vindpust I Wanna hear about your 3d-H
i think it's too early to judge the general character of the building, especially a building designed H&dM///i've always been pleasantly surprised by how their projects (in material, scale, texture, light) are enhanced in their built form - the photographs of their built work is infinitely superior to their renderings)///meaning, once the building is clad, lid, populated, and experienced as it's meant to be, then it might not seem as terrifying-megalomaniacal as the structural member tend to indicate...based on their previous work, they deserve the benefit of the doubt.
in response to the lack of human scale, and relationship to the city, i think that an olympic stadium has an inherit monumentality...it's supposed to be symbolic...and a bird's nest seems as an appropriate symbol here...
simples: more please on your thought: why is a bird's nest an appropriate symbol for a monumental international sporting complex? Aren't bird's nests nurturing homes for young?
maybe not for a monumental international sporting complex, but for an olympic stadium (which is quite an interesting movement - i participated in a missionary group at atlanta '96). interestingly enough, a lot of the olympic movement is focused (or supposed to be focused) on educating the young...but that's not what i was referring to...
i think the bird's next is an appropriate symbol as it would be recognized internationally, it reflects collaborative spirit (all as one, as the stadium structure, as twigs in the nest), no structural hyerarchy (all members are valued equally)
that's how i was referring to it...thanks for calling me out on it!
No, not calling you out, simples, just looking for more discussion - thanks for responding.
One *could* say that those hungry little baby birds are competing with one another for the worm, right?
I certainly is a form that is recognizable across all cultures, except maybe Inuit or some desert nomads.
It is a cool-looking building.
Strange to hear words like this coming from an anarchist, Apurimac, you almost sound jealous about what is possible under totilitarian regimes (I kind of am, too).
PS - @liberty bell - 'I also have no Veggie Booty' is one of the funniest sentences I've read today.
It's bootylicious!
When it's not giving you salmonella!
Yaaargh!
it looks like the sinews of a muscle
"One *could* say that those hungry little baby birds are competing with one another for the worm, right?" yup! after all, there is only one gold medal, right!!!!
my turn to go on a tangent...i was, and still am, not happy that the olympics will be in china...there are a lot of "questionable" political practices in re. to human rights...oh, and since i am in this rant, why is communism in china ok, and communism in cuba still evil?
so, the questions now come billowing out (in no apparent order or reference):
1) is the problem with the Chinese manufacturing system or with the USA importer who was willing to allow defective (dangerous) products to be sold under their label or importation in order to gain greater profits?
2) why is it that "talking about buildings in china cannot be anything but a political discussion"? why only China? as mentioned later, if the UK is putting all its public funding into a singular event in the London area, what does this say about "centralised" governments? is the production and support for cheap, 2nd rate public buildings in the USA NOT part of a political discussion?
3) is it the HdM building that is 'out-of-place' or not integrated into the city or is that the consequence of the Chinese Olympic authority in choosing the site? no different than Sydney, or Athens or London. and the HdM stadium in Munich is way outside the city - all alone off the motorway.
4) so, we should all hate to support the "promoting and investing in a government and economy built so much in morally questionable activities" - except and unless it was the USA and its use of slaves or low-paid migrant workers?
The United States doesn't censor the internet for political reasons.
The United States doesn't jail people for expressing a political opinion in writing.
The United States isn't able to muster the political will to create such large and willful projects with public money.
Don't get me wrong, the USA does a lot of f*cked up stuff, but let's keep it in perspective here.
Why is it surprising that there are links between active suppression of dissent in a command economy and large grandiose gestures in public architecture? Seems obvious in retrospect. Compare Ground Zero, where there is a lack of political consensus, and a corresponding lack of design focus. Not to mention all the arguments about the money ...
The USA doesn't censor for "political" reasons - its censors for "security" reasons. when was the last time you offered public and visible support for the democratically elected government of Hamas in Gaza?
do you really believe there is no one, at this point in time, in an american jail for expressing an unfavorable 'political' opinion in writing? how far we have come from 1968.
Ground Zero is a lack not of "political consensus" but "social consensus". in America, everyone gets to own their own opinion.
and in terms of perspective, remember, you are asking China to be in 10 years - liberated, open, individulaised capitalist, westernised (with western value system) democracy - something that took the USA 120 years.
I'm not into that sort of thing, but there are protests for/against Isreal/Hamas every damn day on every college campus in this country. And anyway, isn't the State Department about to send them a bunch of money?
do you really believe there is no one, at this point in time, in an american jail for expressing an unfavorable 'political' opinion in writing? how far we have come from 1968.
Yeah, I do, if you know better, I'd be really interested to hear some names.
Ground Zero is a lack not of "political consensus" but "social consensus". in America, everyone gets to own their own opinion.
Yeah, at least we let the 'social' and the 'political' mix together a little more in the states.
and in terms of perspective, remember, you are asking China to be in 10 years - liberated, open, individulaised capitalist, westernised (with western value system) democracy - something that took the USA 120 years.
Oh, so we should let human rights abuses slide, then? I'm much more worried about the opposite, western governments look at China (and other similar pseudo-democracies ... Singapore?) and see economic prosperity hand in hand with political repression and going 'hmmm ...'
Perspective? China blocked all of flickr for 1.3 billion people because someone uploaded a certain picture of a guy in front of a tank that made some government officials uncomfortable:
link
eat my chinese ass.
I'm just glad that I don't have to review the shop drawings.
mmmm...chinese ass
that's prince jr.
there are issues in china, but is it true that we can only consider the stadium according to whether the chinese govt is of a particular political color, with benchmarks of various flavors used depending on each person's own political stripe?
i can understand why terragni and his work would be considered that way...but H+deM, OMA, Steven Holl? even if the architecture is great and the urban fabric changed favorably? if we take that standard then all architecture discussion must first devolve into consideration of the worst face/actions of a nation before even getting to the act of inhabitation, design, etc. there must be a point where such ruminations become counterproductive...and self serving.
i do know a chinese person who is angry with rem for not forcing the govt to change its policies before accepting commision to design cctv, but does not hold hok or som to same standard. the logic goes that rem is a star and he can somehow leverage his position to lead to real change in china. which i am outrageously doubtful of, and i wonder what is really going on...
china does seem to be getting better on most measurable fronts...i still am concerned about the toys in the kidsmeal i might buy at mcdonalds, but that is common sense and has in the end very little to do with the beijing stadium.
speaking of which...i am not sure i understand the criticism of the building as urban planning tool. the number of people that will use the place at one time requires space so a large plaza is not out of place...especially one that is going to be landsaped in a rather nice manner as far as i can tell. from my perspective there is enough urban fabric in beijing that a break from it is not out of place...but it sort of depends on how that falls out. i have seen some awful renderings of visions for the area that make me shudder for the banality of it all...and others published by H+deM that are very attractive. which way is more realistic? sadly, probably it will be like this in the end...
...just because people tend to make bad decisions on this sort of thing more often than not...but i hope it will look more like H+deM themsleves envision it, especially thos versions publishe din A+U...time will tell.
to change context of debate a bit, here are some other pics of building in construction. looks amazing to me.
dlb I think this is a very valid point and it is part of what makes me so angry about the damn Thomas toys. Someone somewhere - most likely an American - is making money off of *not* ensuring that lead paint doesn't end up in our supply chain, and it's especially egregious that this is in children's toys when the evidence of lead's ill effects on child development has been well-documented for 40 years.
But one is also flat-out not allowed to use lead paint in the US, a health standard which China is not controlling, because (in part) it allows China to make product for less cost than could be achieved in America. It is not only western companies profiting on China's product.
Lead in anyone's supply stream and environment is bad. I don't only blame China for importing lead toys, but I do blame them/it in part.
No, for the record, I have absolutely nothing against the Chinese people, I just think the govt. there is kind of evil. I'm not a fan of the US govt. either, but some of my best friends are american!
vindpust - hvad mener du med "tinhat movement"?
If I may be so bold, the only thing i'm gonna add to the political aspect of this discussion as far as U.S./China is concerned is that "All governments are created equal" it really is comparing apples and apples when you look at the policies of the U.S. and China respectively over their histories (I had no CLUE we/the CIA put Pol Pot in power). You can ask me to back it up if you like, but you'll get another rant.
I find the notions of urbanism expressed in this thread to be very interesting because it didn't cross my mind, but Beijing is so sprawled out the stadium is actually in a developed part of town, not out in the sticks. Besides that though, you have to take into account that Beijing is a very weird city from an urbanists standpoint. The block sizes are huge and thus the neighborhoods of alley houses (hutongs) are quite massive, almost like a collection of towns in one larger matrix. That said going block to block is almost like leaving one town for another and in older times these hutongs were not surrounded by shops on the main streets, but by walls. Insularity is integral to the urban fabric of Beijing, and in that respect the olympic site being this insular mega-block with object-in-field conditions makes sense.
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