The system is working? The sport is dead? I dunno what I think. I'm inclined to stick with "the system is working". Too bad Rabobank didn't get their shit together earlier.
And I think the difference is that Festina was busted accidentally by customs agents - this apparent meltdown has been entirely the result of doping testing and teams self-policing.
i wonder if the team owners are starting to have an effect on the running of the teams. i can imagine a company like rabobank deciding that it would be better in the long run to sack rasmussen before he wins rather than deal with the negative publicity of having the winner stripped of their title.
Yeah... I think that at some point pressure from the sponsors has to trickle down to how the riders operate, and that may be what we are seeing with the withdrawal of Cofidis. Astana on the other hand... who knows.
if they want credibility as a sport, then the Tour should cancel the rest of the race, convene a panel and figure out what the hell is going on, why it's happening and can they prevent it. they should not race until measures are put in place, and lifetime bans are handed out. this is only the tip, i fear the olympics might be next.
I think it is working and ever since Basso an Ullrich were pulled by there own team owners/directors are having to make the tough decisions, but that's what is expected. People just don't expect to see super human efforts day in and day out. Nobody's clear yet but it sure is entertaining.
The logical next step is to make it a crime where the punishment is jail ( like Italy ) It may not come to it but it sure would get you to think twice about the repurcussions, When you think about it all those guys who have been caught are getting away very easy. One day your riding across a pristine mountain pass nice day your in jail, that'd get my attention.
I'm with that. It's a crime in France as well. Think of the consternation it would cause in baseball and golf in the US if they were subject to criminal penalties for doping. And those aren't even real sports...
Yup. No other sport doesn't have anywhere near the same degree of testing. You can be sure that doping exists in other sports, but it is not getting caught.
beta, I don't know much abuut blood doping but I belive that it is primarily an endurance sport thing. The way I understand it the introduction of more red blood cells allows for the blood to carry more oxygen to the muscles for a longer period of time. I don't think it does mush from a strength stand point though.
Janosh, baseball not a sport? you're dead to me...
what i can't understand is why they didn't pull rassmussen from the beginning... this late pull while he's in yellow after taking the 16th stage just adds to the Tour's fiasco. Is there a positive test for Rassmussen during the Tour? No, right? \I'm not sayin it's not likely he was training with enhancers, but this seems to be wholey different than Barry and Balco, where people have actually come forward (for a while now) and said that he was on the program.
well, it's good that they are finding this stuff and kicking people out. no doubt they will need to get better and better to keep up with the labs, but i think the amount of controversy the tour has had this year, is likely to discourage a lot of riders next year from cheating
postal how can you say that it will change because of "this year"? This same thing has been going on for at least the last 5 or 6 and it's getting worse every year. Just like in any sport, if people want to win they will find a way to cheat. I don't know it will ever stop.
A year without a tour may do some good but there is too much money in it. I did the house for the people who own Saris (bike racks)and they practically live in europe three or four months of the year becasue that's where the bulk of the market is.
postal how can you say that it will change because of "this year"? This same thing has been going on for at least the last 5 or 6 and it's getting worse every year. Just like in any sport, if people want to win they will find a way to cheat. I don't know it will ever stop.
A year without a tour may do some good but there is too much money in it. I did the house for the people who own Saris (bike racks)and they practically live in europe three or four months of the year becasue that's where the bulk of the market is.
what i don't understand is how there is a grey area? how do you get a blood transfusion when you know they test for this sort of thing? twice we've seen desperate riders who were borderline out of the running, then all the sudden put together an incredible stage (landis, vino) are they of the mindset that they've got nothing to lose? either they suceed in cheating and are back in the running? or if they get caught they're kicked out of the race they would've been basically out of without the enhancement? are these strategies being used out of desperation?
and define getting worse? without knowing whether the number of users is growing or better/worse or the testing vs. drugs is getting better/worse
but i'm not an expert, nor a huge cycling fan, just a casual observer. my 2 cents.
Oh and just to get you thinking....Contador had a brain hemorrage, feel off his back and nearly died a few years back and that's the emotional story you may have heard and its true. So the cause of a brain hemorrage is most likely thickening of the blood, what causes that EPO.
Think Flo Jo from her sprinting days, oh that's right she died. She did get her olympic gold though. Just something to consider until the next cheat is caught.
I don't know why they do what they do but I can make thes comparisons although my examples are from levels of these sports nowhere near this.
Auto racing at a local track or limited region: Most regulations require a dollar amount buyout restriction. A local track here has a $400 buy out rule. If a guy in your class wants to buy your motor for that price you are required to sell it for that price. Yet all of the guys in the upper half of the class have many thousands in their motors. They don't get bought out because its basically a under the table gentlemans agreement thing. Everyone would gun for you if you did this.
Powerlifting: I have known a large number of people who perform like crap in the gym and at certain meets yet at other meets they turn into monsters. Testing is done on a request only basis and is rarely requested. Why? Because if I request that you test, its in the regs that YOU have to pay for the test. If someone were to do that, the community would know it and make me test at every meet I ever go to from that point on.
It's gambling plain and simple. You go to Vegas and hope to strike it rich....most lose but if you win it was worth it.
i watched yesterday's stage finish last night, and did not know rasmussen was sent home...i was amazed to see the top 3 duel in the end and amazing how rasumussen defended all of Contador's attacks, and then w/1km. left just took off (in the back of my mind, i was think it was un-human, like landis' come-back stage last year...
now, from what i can gather, Rasmussen was sent home because he told his team he was in mexico before the tour started, and that caused him to miss the surprise exams, and someone said he saw him in italy instead?! is that enough reason!? don't they have exams after each race?! i'd hate to find out that rasmussen was kicked off the tour for a missunderstanding (why don't they just look at the results?) and now that contador is the yellow jersey, how long until somebody finds his email address in some doctor's computer...
lastly, regardless of how clean the sport is (or isn't), yesterday's event was thoroughly entertaining!
simples... look into the "men in black" rumours surrounding cycling recently.
Quite recently both teams (to cover there asses from being responsible) and national federations (who police their athletes) have instituted policies for cyclists to provide schedules pertaining to their whereabouts. Rasmussen blatently contradicted his schedule. Now the reason why it is so troubling for Rabo and the Danish Cycling Fed. is that in recent years riders would disappear for a time and show up to compete and blow everyone away. (think: Lance doing those Alps/Pyrenees recon camps now everyone!) I'm not going to get into the specifics but it is possible to do certain drugs that will clear ones system and thus not be traceable while continuing to provide physiological 'benefits' for a time after.
This is nothing new and the provision of travel iteneraries is designed so that testers can show up any time any where to test you. I know a guy who rode for phonak who once had officials show up on his door step on his birthday for a pee sample!
This is nothing new for Rasmussen. I was competing as a junior in '99, the year he won the world MTB champs, before he switched to road. The guy did shit all year and then suddenly arrived in sweden and blew everyone away after "training hard for a month in Italy". Pezzo did the same thing with the Olympics when she won.....
It's truely amazing, and troubling how deeply ingrained it is into the culture of the sport.
I find it kind of fascinating to be honest.
For all those interested check out Paul Kimmage's book "Rough Ride" in which he candidly biographs his struggles in the pro peloton in the '80s.
I'm pissed off having waisted one single minute on watching the Tour this year. I agree with comments above - a lot of dopers and a druggie arms race is going on and the organisers know it and lay down the rules as if to say: 'these are the targets/checks you have to beat if you want to cheat"...It's a fucking joke.
Nobody is winning the Tour this year, just like the year before that and before that etc.
Only Lance "Oh Lance" stands untainted by the hypocrisy of these cheats and thieves..! Or so he says..
From what I've read in the Danish media, Rasmussen is claiming his innocence but is now referring to his lawyer most of the time, whom he says is dealing with all aspects of the matter. He's hired some top lawyer and they're saying it could be some time before they will make any further statements - however, the moves is being interpreted as a sign that Rasmussen will fight the case (like Landis I guess...)
There's also some accusations/anger against a certain journalist from the national broadcaster (DR) who's being accused of harassing Rasmussen and forcing a minor issue to the point where it got him thrown out of the race. Obviously the journo is saying he just followed the story...Which had let him to an Italian rider (Cassani) claiming to have spotted Rasmussen in Italy whilst Rasmussen was claiming to have been in Mexico (Rasmussen's wife is Mexican btw).
Rasmussen also said that he'd not been formally sacked by Rabobank so he's waiting to hear on that.
I think the worst thing about these doping scandals is that it makes all riders suspect. Unfounded rumors like the one that Whistler repeated above about Contador's hemmorhage being the result of EPO use ruin careers and are totally irresponsible. I mean, the guy crashed, suffered a huge head injury and nearly dies, and here you have people saying it is must of been because doping. I've seen some of the same shit on Daily Peloton, and those are people that should know better.
The sport and all the clean riders who participate in it deserve to be treated fairly. When Vino and Sinkewitcz's doping results were leaked to L'Equipe, I was pissed at the two of them for putting a great sport in danger and cheating its fans, but I was more pissed at the Chatenay lab. I mean, WTF! The UCI and the labs are supposed to be the ones imposing professionalism and responsibility within the sport, and instead they are going after headlines. It undermines the credibility of the doping control system. There's something very wrong when the clean riders and the tour organizers say they don't trust the system.
Well, maybe its not a bad thing. Things made a positive turn when the steroid scandal broke out in baseball. Now the emphasis is back on pitching, not hitting home runs. This makes a lot more of the game more enjoyable for everyone. I'm not quite sure how this could translate to cycling, but I'm sure if its there they can figure it out.
The tradition of the GC riders taking it easy in Paris is because it usually never matters for them as the final standings are already more or less decided. The final stage in Paris is a short stage beginning outside of town but finishing with a number of circuits up and down the Champs Elysees. Even considering the time bonuses, Evans wouldn't be able to best Contador's 23 seconds unless he won the stage and the intermediate sprints, which is impossible. Meanwhile, the sprinters that have made it all the way around France have one last extremely prestigious stage to contest, and the GC riders are usually happy to stay out of their way - it's dangerous at the front of any sprint, and in Paris in particular because of the turns, cobbles, and crowds. Leipheimer is on the same team as Contador, so he is obligated to sit back and enjoy the celebration.
Only one Tour was decided on the final stage, and that was in 1989 when LeMond defeated Laurent Fignon in an individual time trial, using his controversial aero bars and goofy proto-teardrop helmet. Fignon was devastated.
Tour De France 2007
i'm completely shocked by the rasmussen news as well as the news on Cofidis departing the tour.
i'd be psyched to see either levi or contador win this thing.
what a crazy tour though.
is this yr worse than '96?
this sport is dead.
The system is working? The sport is dead? I dunno what I think. I'm inclined to stick with "the system is working". Too bad Rabobank didn't get their shit together earlier.
And I think the difference is that Festina was busted accidentally by customs agents - this apparent meltdown has been entirely the result of doping testing and teams self-policing.
I'd never thought I would utter these words...
"There's just too much drama in cycling. I can't keep up with it."
i wonder if the team owners are starting to have an effect on the running of the teams. i can imagine a company like rabobank deciding that it would be better in the long run to sack rasmussen before he wins rather than deal with the negative publicity of having the winner stripped of their title.
Yeah... I think that at some point pressure from the sponsors has to trickle down to how the riders operate, and that may be what we are seeing with the withdrawal of Cofidis. Astana on the other hand... who knows.
if they want credibility as a sport, then the Tour should cancel the rest of the race, convene a panel and figure out what the hell is going on, why it's happening and can they prevent it. they should not race until measures are put in place, and lifetime bans are handed out. this is only the tip, i fear the olympics might be next.
I think it is working and ever since Basso an Ullrich were pulled by there own team owners/directors are having to make the tough decisions, but that's what is expected. People just don't expect to see super human efforts day in and day out. Nobody's clear yet but it sure is entertaining.
The logical next step is to make it a crime where the punishment is jail ( like Italy ) It may not come to it but it sure would get you to think twice about the repurcussions, When you think about it all those guys who have been caught are getting away very easy. One day your riding across a pristine mountain pass nice day your in jail, that'd get my attention.
I'm with that. It's a crime in France as well. Think of the consternation it would cause in baseball and golf in the US if they were subject to criminal penalties for doping. And those aren't even real sports...
what is working, getting caught and punished? where are the mechanisms that actually prevent this from happening in the first place?
Yup. No other sport doesn't have anywhere near the same degree of testing. You can be sure that doping exists in other sports, but it is not getting caught.
can blood doping assist anyone other than distance athletes and other track and field competitors?
beta, I don't know much abuut blood doping but I belive that it is primarily an endurance sport thing. The way I understand it the introduction of more red blood cells allows for the blood to carry more oxygen to the muscles for a longer period of time. I don't think it does mush from a strength stand point though.
Janosh, baseball not a sport? you're dead to me...
what i can't understand is why they didn't pull rassmussen from the beginning... this late pull while he's in yellow after taking the 16th stage just adds to the Tour's fiasco. Is there a positive test for Rassmussen during the Tour? No, right? \I'm not sayin it's not likely he was training with enhancers, but this seems to be wholey different than Barry and Balco, where people have actually come forward (for a while now) and said that he was on the program.
well, it's good that they are finding this stuff and kicking people out. no doubt they will need to get better and better to keep up with the labs, but i think the amount of controversy the tour has had this year, is likely to discourage a lot of riders next year from cheating
postal how can you say that it will change because of "this year"? This same thing has been going on for at least the last 5 or 6 and it's getting worse every year. Just like in any sport, if people want to win they will find a way to cheat. I don't know it will ever stop.
A year without a tour may do some good but there is too much money in it. I did the house for the people who own Saris (bike racks)and they practically live in europe three or four months of the year becasue that's where the bulk of the market is.
postal how can you say that it will change because of "this year"? This same thing has been going on for at least the last 5 or 6 and it's getting worse every year. Just like in any sport, if people want to win they will find a way to cheat. I don't know it will ever stop.
A year without a tour may do some good but there is too much money in it. I did the house for the people who own Saris (bike racks)and they practically live in europe three or four months of the year becasue that's where the bulk of the market is.
...I used to have a Saris bike rack...
what i don't understand is how there is a grey area? how do you get a blood transfusion when you know they test for this sort of thing? twice we've seen desperate riders who were borderline out of the running, then all the sudden put together an incredible stage (landis, vino) are they of the mindset that they've got nothing to lose? either they suceed in cheating and are back in the running? or if they get caught they're kicked out of the race they would've been basically out of without the enhancement? are these strategies being used out of desperation?
and define getting worse? without knowing whether the number of users is growing or better/worse or the testing vs. drugs is getting better/worse
but i'm not an expert, nor a huge cycling fan, just a casual observer. my 2 cents.
Oh and just to get you thinking....Contador had a brain hemorrage, feel off his back and nearly died a few years back and that's the emotional story you may have heard and its true. So the cause of a brain hemorrage is most likely thickening of the blood, what causes that EPO.
Think Flo Jo from her sprinting days, oh that's right she died. She did get her olympic gold though. Just something to consider until the next cheat is caught.
I've heard stories of soigneurs having to wake riders in the middle of the night to get up and move around to keep blood circulating.
I don't know why they do what they do but I can make thes comparisons although my examples are from levels of these sports nowhere near this.
Auto racing at a local track or limited region: Most regulations require a dollar amount buyout restriction. A local track here has a $400 buy out rule. If a guy in your class wants to buy your motor for that price you are required to sell it for that price. Yet all of the guys in the upper half of the class have many thousands in their motors. They don't get bought out because its basically a under the table gentlemans agreement thing. Everyone would gun for you if you did this.
Powerlifting: I have known a large number of people who perform like crap in the gym and at certain meets yet at other meets they turn into monsters. Testing is done on a request only basis and is rarely requested. Why? Because if I request that you test, its in the regs that YOU have to pay for the test. If someone were to do that, the community would know it and make me test at every meet I ever go to from that point on.
It's gambling plain and simple. You go to Vegas and hope to strike it rich....most lose but if you win it was worth it.
i watched yesterday's stage finish last night, and did not know rasmussen was sent home...i was amazed to see the top 3 duel in the end and amazing how rasumussen defended all of Contador's attacks, and then w/1km. left just took off (in the back of my mind, i was think it was un-human, like landis' come-back stage last year...
now, from what i can gather, Rasmussen was sent home because he told his team he was in mexico before the tour started, and that caused him to miss the surprise exams, and someone said he saw him in italy instead?! is that enough reason!? don't they have exams after each race?! i'd hate to find out that rasmussen was kicked off the tour for a missunderstanding (why don't they just look at the results?) and now that contador is the yellow jersey, how long until somebody finds his email address in some doctor's computer...
lastly, regardless of how clean the sport is (or isn't), yesterday's event was thoroughly entertaining!
simples... look into the "men in black" rumours surrounding cycling recently.
Quite recently both teams (to cover there asses from being responsible) and national federations (who police their athletes) have instituted policies for cyclists to provide schedules pertaining to their whereabouts. Rasmussen blatently contradicted his schedule. Now the reason why it is so troubling for Rabo and the Danish Cycling Fed. is that in recent years riders would disappear for a time and show up to compete and blow everyone away. (think: Lance doing those Alps/Pyrenees recon camps now everyone!) I'm not going to get into the specifics but it is possible to do certain drugs that will clear ones system and thus not be traceable while continuing to provide physiological 'benefits' for a time after.
This is nothing new and the provision of travel iteneraries is designed so that testers can show up any time any where to test you. I know a guy who rode for phonak who once had officials show up on his door step on his birthday for a pee sample!
This is nothing new for Rasmussen. I was competing as a junior in '99, the year he won the world MTB champs, before he switched to road. The guy did shit all year and then suddenly arrived in sweden and blew everyone away after "training hard for a month in Italy". Pezzo did the same thing with the Olympics when she won.....
It's truely amazing, and troubling how deeply ingrained it is into the culture of the sport.
I find it kind of fascinating to be honest.
For all those interested check out Paul Kimmage's book "Rough Ride" in which he candidly biographs his struggles in the pro peloton in the '80s.
I guess that's all for now...
I'm pissed off having waisted one single minute on watching the Tour this year. I agree with comments above - a lot of dopers and a druggie arms race is going on and the organisers know it and lay down the rules as if to say: 'these are the targets/checks you have to beat if you want to cheat"...It's a fucking joke.
Nobody is winning the Tour this year, just like the year before that and before that etc.
Only Lance "Oh Lance" stands untainted by the hypocrisy of these cheats and thieves..! Or so he says..
PetePeterson- Thanks for the insight! Good stuf!
pete...very interesting background info...it also makes it a bit more understandable why it's so hard to clean up the sport...
From what I've read in the Danish media, Rasmussen is claiming his innocence but is now referring to his lawyer most of the time, whom he says is dealing with all aspects of the matter. He's hired some top lawyer and they're saying it could be some time before they will make any further statements - however, the moves is being interpreted as a sign that Rasmussen will fight the case (like Landis I guess...)
There's also some accusations/anger against a certain journalist from the national broadcaster (DR) who's being accused of harassing Rasmussen and forcing a minor issue to the point where it got him thrown out of the race. Obviously the journo is saying he just followed the story...Which had let him to an Italian rider (Cassani) claiming to have spotted Rasmussen in Italy whilst Rasmussen was claiming to have been in Mexico (Rasmussen's wife is Mexican btw).
Rasmussen also said that he'd not been formally sacked by Rabobank so he's waiting to hear on that.
what's with all the dog wrecks this tour?
major fart moments!
I think the worst thing about these doping scandals is that it makes all riders suspect. Unfounded rumors like the one that Whistler repeated above about Contador's hemmorhage being the result of EPO use ruin careers and are totally irresponsible. I mean, the guy crashed, suffered a huge head injury and nearly dies, and here you have people saying it is must of been because doping. I've seen some of the same shit on Daily Peloton, and those are people that should know better.
The sport and all the clean riders who participate in it deserve to be treated fairly. When Vino and Sinkewitcz's doping results were leaked to L'Equipe, I was pissed at the two of them for putting a great sport in danger and cheating its fans, but I was more pissed at the Chatenay lab. I mean, WTF! The UCI and the labs are supposed to be the ones imposing professionalism and responsibility within the sport, and instead they are going after headlines. It undermines the credibility of the doping control system. There's something very wrong when the clean riders and the tour organizers say they don't trust the system.
Well, maybe its not a bad thing. Things made a positive turn when the steroid scandal broke out in baseball. Now the emphasis is back on pitching, not hitting home runs. This makes a lot more of the game more enjoyable for everyone. I'm not quite sure how this could translate to cycling, but I'm sure if its there they can figure it out.
The tradition of the GC riders taking it easy in Paris is because it usually never matters for them as the final standings are already more or less decided. The final stage in Paris is a short stage beginning outside of town but finishing with a number of circuits up and down the Champs Elysees. Even considering the time bonuses, Evans wouldn't be able to best Contador's 23 seconds unless he won the stage and the intermediate sprints, which is impossible. Meanwhile, the sprinters that have made it all the way around France have one last extremely prestigious stage to contest, and the GC riders are usually happy to stay out of their way - it's dangerous at the front of any sprint, and in Paris in particular because of the turns, cobbles, and crowds. Leipheimer is on the same team as Contador, so he is obligated to sit back and enjoy the celebration.
Only one Tour was decided on the final stage, and that was in 1989 when LeMond defeated Laurent Fignon in an individual time trial, using his controversial aero bars and goofy proto-teardrop helmet. Fignon was devastated.
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