For many reasons, I like my motorcycle best of all. 40mpg, 0-60 in less than 4 seconds, and cost me all of $2500 used. And way more fun than any car costing 100 times as much.
Anyway, back on topic.....
xacto, I'm not sure where you're located, but I was under the impression that Smart Cars weren't quite yet available in the US, or have been made available very recently. This might explain a little bit why you haven't seen many.
Truth is, they are overpriced for what they are. They are also smaller and less safe than most cars on the road. They get good gas mileage, but not as good as you'd think. In the end, the cost isn't justified. Partly this may be because it's a Mercedes product, and geared primarily toward urban Europeans, who actually want something like this, apparently.
i think that is because they arent officially on sale in the united states, not until 2008. the smartcars you see now are probably "grey market" imports. hence the (european) diesel engin.
i just read this off the FAQ on the smartusa website(i know, im a nerd).
4. How much will a smart vehicle cost?
The smart fortwo pure will start under $12,000*, the smart fortwo passion coupe will start under $14,000* and the smart fortwo passion cabrio will start under $17,000*. Exact pricing will not be determined until late 2007. Once this information has been determined, it will be posted on www.smartusa.com.[/i]
i'm with you, exacto. electric cars only make consumers imagine its cleaner because they don't get that nasty gas smell all over their hands at the fuel pump when fifty miles away there's some power plant belching plumes of yellow smoke. coal and fossil fuels are both equally bad fuel sources. alternative fuel sources is where it's at (personally i'm rooting for a safe hydrogen fuel cell and was really impressed with what honda was doing with this type of research).
hybrids are a step in the right direction because they make fossil fuel burning engines more efficient by reusing the energy produced by the car while it is in motion, storing the energy in the battery. until the auto industry can find an alternative fuel that is both safe and efficient enough to produce the power to accomodate current vehicles, the hybrids the best we got.
so what about all the refineries, the tankers, etc., etc. that are used for gas? Wouldnt' that make electric still a billion times more environmentally friendly, even though powerplants are horrible?
It's not 100%, but it could be.
I agree there is a long way to go, but technology is moving fast. A solar panel or two with increased efficiency, some kinda generator to make energy while coasting, etc., and you've got a perfectly functioning electric car. PVs are progressing quickly, now that there is actual 'real' interest.
I also agree coal will be a huge part of the future. There are some companies making it 'green' (gotta go find their ticker symbol!), but we'll see.
"Charge At Home or On the Road
Plug your Tesla Roadster into the at-home charging unit, and you’ll be fully charged in under four hours. But we consider this a “worst case” for someone starting with a completely dead battery. Even after a 100-mile trip, you can be completely charged in under two hours.* And should you need to charge on the road, packed away in the trunk is an optional mobile-charging kit that lets you charge from standard electrical outlets while away from home."
200 miles between charges. That's more than I drive in a month!
That is unless you are all for extending our dependence on oil to our great grandchildren rather than our grandchildren. Then yes hybrids are the best way to put it off a teeny bit longer.
I agree there is a long way to go, but technology is moving fast. A solar panel or two with increased efficiency, some kinda generator to make energy while coasting, etc., and you've got a perfectly functioning electric car. PVs are progressing quickly, now that there is actual 'real' interest.
I do wonder what you would get if you put PVs where a sunroof usually goes (picture a big one like on a Scion TC) and maybe on the trunk lid too, and coupled that with the energy-harvesting technology that charges hybrids when they break. If the battery was capable of enough storage, maybe you could park your car in the sun all day while you were at work, and use that energy to drive yourself home at night.
Of course, in the meantime, I'm a big fan of pedal power.
i think the idea is that tesla will next develop a 5 seater at 60k then another at 30k sometime in the future.
the second model [code name: White Star, scheduled for 2008] will be a sporty four door family car at roughly half the $89k price point of the Tesla Roadster and the third model will be even more affordable
-form treehugger
garpike: i would not be opposed to electric cars when there is a more enviromentally friendly way to produce electricity. in my eyes, owning an electric car today is no better than owning a car that runs on fossil fuel. the only difference is that your supporting a different economy.
also, i agree that hybrids are the best temporary solution, but only as a temporary solution.
I think that the whole idea that there can BE a temporary solution is a huge part of the problem! Why are we thinking about enormous machines that hang around for decades in any terms like "temporary"??? The best TEMPORARY solution is to stop buying new cars. The vast majority of the embodied energy of a vehicle is in its manufacture, not in its use, so buying a new car is one of the worst things you can do for the planet, no matter how effecient the emissions on that new car may be. Suck it up and drive something used, at least until we figure out a better solution.
i dont mean for this to come off as mean, but electric cars for the general public dont even exsist yet. To me, apposing them now seems a little 'defeatest'.
Furthermore, suggesting pv brings up an interesting point. today, there are few practical ways of powering a car, fossil fules and electricity. I guess you could attach thin film pvs but pvs probably wont be a primary power source in our life time. I think electric vehicals are exciting because electrisity can be generated for distribution in a number of ways--nuclear, coal, biomass, hydro, wind, solar, natural gas, geothermal, potatos. Yes, some are greener than others. On the other hand, fossil fules can only generated by drilling in other countries.
PV's great... but what about those of us in the great white north, where it snows 5 months of the year?
I'm getting ready to move to a city that actually HAS electrical sockets for every outdoor parking space in many parking lots - to keep an engine block heater running (so the oil doesn't freeze, and your car turns over a little easier and doesn't kill your battery.)
Yeah, I'm nuts. But I already knew that.
If there were an easy solution, we'd be there by now. Temporary sucks, but if it's an improvement while we work on the 'big answer' (which will never exist), then that's better than nothing.
I agree 1000% with rationalist - buy USED. Our government has advertisements playing right now, urging everybody to buy new cars, because they claim new cars are simply exponentially more efficient than cars were only 10 years ago.
Bulllllshit. I drive a 12-year old car that gets the same gas mileage as all the new cars in the same size class. The last emissions test I had showed that I was polluting at about 10% of the acceptable level. What a joke (and a cash grab). And last but not least, our automotive sector is shrinking, and our conservative government is freaking out. Meanwhile, the car companies aren't making the fuel-efficient vehicles that most people are in the market for.
I'm reviving this post because I saw today on treehugger that someone is already doing the hybrid + solar thing. It says you can go 20 miles a day on electric power that way, which would more than cover my daily driving.
would you pay $26,000 for this...
damnit... too wide...
by the way, that is an RTM Tango...
For many reasons, I like my motorcycle best of all. 40mpg, 0-60 in less than 4 seconds, and cost me all of $2500 used. And way more fun than any car costing 100 times as much.
Anyway, back on topic.....
xacto, I'm not sure where you're located, but I was under the impression that Smart Cars weren't quite yet available in the US, or have been made available very recently. This might explain a little bit why you haven't seen many.
Truth is, they are overpriced for what they are. They are also smaller and less safe than most cars on the road. They get good gas mileage, but not as good as you'd think. In the end, the cost isn't justified. Partly this may be because it's a Mercedes product, and geared primarily toward urban Europeans, who actually want something like this, apparently.
i think that is because they arent officially on sale in the united states, not until 2008. the smartcars you see now are probably "grey market" imports. hence the (european) diesel engin.
Oh I thought by electric cars (of today) xacto was saying not many people buy these:
Now I am confused. How did Smart Cars come into this (besides being the topic of the thread)?
what the hell is that?
very interesting. thanks gar. i thought electric cars were killed of in the 90's.
i just read this off the FAQ on the smartusa website(i know, im a nerd).
4. How much will a smart vehicle cost?
The smart fortwo pure will start under $12,000*, the smart fortwo passion coupe will start under $14,000* and the smart fortwo passion cabrio will start under $17,000*. Exact pricing will not be determined until late 2007. Once this information has been determined, it will be posted on www.smartusa.com.[/i]
the true answer. http://www.bikecarmovie.com/
Do any of you have an audio file of the smart car horn?!
i'm with you, exacto. electric cars only make consumers imagine its cleaner because they don't get that nasty gas smell all over their hands at the fuel pump when fifty miles away there's some power plant belching plumes of yellow smoke. coal and fossil fuels are both equally bad fuel sources. alternative fuel sources is where it's at (personally i'm rooting for a safe hydrogen fuel cell and was really impressed with what honda was doing with this type of research).
hybrids are a step in the right direction because they make fossil fuel burning engines more efficient by reusing the energy produced by the car while it is in motion, storing the energy in the battery. until the auto industry can find an alternative fuel that is both safe and efficient enough to produce the power to accomodate current vehicles, the hybrids the best we got.
so what about all the refineries, the tankers, etc., etc. that are used for gas? Wouldnt' that make electric still a billion times more environmentally friendly, even though powerplants are horrible?
It's not 100%, but it could be.
I agree there is a long way to go, but technology is moving fast. A solar panel or two with increased efficiency, some kinda generator to make energy while coasting, etc., and you've got a perfectly functioning electric car. PVs are progressing quickly, now that there is actual 'real' interest.
I also agree coal will be a huge part of the future. There are some companies making it 'green' (gotta go find their ticker symbol!), but we'll see.
"Charge At Home or On the Road
Plug your Tesla Roadster into the at-home charging unit, and you’ll be fully charged in under four hours. But we consider this a “worst case” for someone starting with a completely dead battery. Even after a 100-mile trip, you can be completely charged in under two hours.* And should you need to charge on the road, packed away in the trunk is an optional mobile-charging kit that lets you charge from standard electrical outlets while away from home."
200 miles between charges. That's more than I drive in a month!
I think I'd be pretty happy with this baby:
http://www.teslamotors.com/
Oh, yeah, 0-60 in 4 seconds. 13,000rpm redline. 100% torque 100% of the time.
i think that most of the electricity is lost in the transmission of it over long distances
... I agree, as a temporary solution only.
That is unless you are all for extending our dependence on oil to our great grandchildren rather than our grandchildren. Then yes hybrids are the best way to put it off a teeny bit longer.
trace.... that car seems kinda interesting.... but a $92,000 base price is a bit rich for most of us, I'd imagine!
i just want a back pack like bubbafet
My electric car, as of July:
Now yer talking.
slantsix - yup, it ain't cheap, but we can always hope for the trickle down
I do wonder what you would get if you put PVs where a sunroof usually goes (picture a big one like on a Scion TC) and maybe on the trunk lid too, and coupled that with the energy-harvesting technology that charges hybrids when they break. If the battery was capable of enough storage, maybe you could park your car in the sun all day while you were at work, and use that energy to drive yourself home at night.
Of course, in the meantime, I'm a big fan of pedal power.
i think the idea is that tesla will next develop a 5 seater at 60k then another at 30k sometime in the future.
the second model [code name: White Star, scheduled for 2008] will be a sporty four door family car at roughly half the $89k price point of the Tesla Roadster and the third model will be even more affordable
-form treehugger
garpike: i would not be opposed to electric cars when there is a more enviromentally friendly way to produce electricity. in my eyes, owning an electric car today is no better than owning a car that runs on fossil fuel. the only difference is that your supporting a different economy.
also, i agree that hybrids are the best temporary solution, but only as a temporary solution.
I think that the whole idea that there can BE a temporary solution is a huge part of the problem! Why are we thinking about enormous machines that hang around for decades in any terms like "temporary"??? The best TEMPORARY solution is to stop buying new cars. The vast majority of the embodied energy of a vehicle is in its manufacture, not in its use, so buying a new car is one of the worst things you can do for the planet, no matter how effecient the emissions on that new car may be. Suck it up and drive something used, at least until we figure out a better solution.
i dont mean for this to come off as mean, but electric cars for the general public dont even exsist yet. To me, apposing them now seems a little 'defeatest'.
Furthermore, suggesting pv brings up an interesting point. today, there are few practical ways of powering a car, fossil fules and electricity. I guess you could attach thin film pvs but pvs probably wont be a primary power source in our life time. I think electric vehicals are exciting because electrisity can be generated for distribution in a number of ways--nuclear, coal, biomass, hydro, wind, solar, natural gas, geothermal, potatos. Yes, some are greener than others. On the other hand, fossil fules can only generated by drilling in other countries.
PV's great... but what about those of us in the great white north, where it snows 5 months of the year?
I'm getting ready to move to a city that actually HAS electrical sockets for every outdoor parking space in many parking lots - to keep an engine block heater running (so the oil doesn't freeze, and your car turns over a little easier and doesn't kill your battery.)
Yeah, I'm nuts. But I already knew that.
If there were an easy solution, we'd be there by now. Temporary sucks, but if it's an improvement while we work on the 'big answer' (which will never exist), then that's better than nothing.
I agree 1000% with rationalist - buy USED. Our government has advertisements playing right now, urging everybody to buy new cars, because they claim new cars are simply exponentially more efficient than cars were only 10 years ago.
Bulllllshit. I drive a 12-year old car that gets the same gas mileage as all the new cars in the same size class. The last emissions test I had showed that I was polluting at about 10% of the acceptable level. What a joke (and a cash grab). And last but not least, our automotive sector is shrinking, and our conservative government is freaking out. Meanwhile, the car companies aren't making the fuel-efficient vehicles that most people are in the market for.
I'm reviving this post because I saw today on treehugger that someone is already doing the hybrid + solar thing. It says you can go 20 miles a day on electric power that way, which would more than cover my daily driving.
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