the answer to the question is no. but the general contractor probably does.
from first principles:
people have been building buildings for like 8000 years. typically you built your own house, or your dad or grandfather or someone like that built it for you and thank god for that, because hand-milling wood and gathering rubble stone was hard. people did it as little as possible.
if you were like a sumerian king or a pharaoh or something, you rounded up a few thousand slaves to build your temple or pyramid or whatever.
but only sometime rather late in the time of the ancient egyptians did a guy step up and say, mr pharaoh, i know how your temple REALLY should work. imhotep, i am sure, was the bane of the slaves' existence.
if you just go out and build something, you learn only by what you've done wrong and what you've done right. if it didn't work last time, you try not to do it again -- or you do it again and hope it will work this time. if it worked, you sure as hell do it again, as close to the original as you can manage. because it worked, whatever it was.
you don't know the theory behind it. that shelter you built out of four columns (also known on the jobsite as "beams") and four beams (also known on the site as "posts") fell over in the wind. but when you rebuilt it and put some diagonal bracing at the corners (also known as "chingalera", see a previous post on construction spanish), it stood up kinda ok. so next time, you built it like that -- exactly like that, with the pegs in the same place and the carving in the same place because the gods must like egg-and-dart ornamentation.
fastforward to modern-day america, and the average guy behind the circular saw and the nail gun aren't much further along. some guy in a black shirt on a hot summer's day comes onto their site with that stupid drawing that ain't worth shit, they just disregard him until he makes them redo the damn detail. it matters not a lick that the guy in the black shirt has 3-5 years of professional education, 3-7 years of internship, and a professional license. he ain't never been in the trenches, and he's out of his mind, thinking you can't frame the rafters of a back porch directly onto masonry veneer, because that was how we did it at the last house and the owner never made a warranty claim.
I've nothing but good times with construction workers, even being commissioned by them to do other work. Which in my mind says alot. There are many horror stories with workers but I've found them more approachable you are and willing to listen as well as show them up on what they think they know about construction gains you in the end
Why don’t architects explain more to the clients that the low bidders will never execute their custom plans? Why? If architects had good trade contractors to fall back on and recommend I think the clients would listen and their designs would be executed with skill. The same goes with the general contractor. Too often I work with a general contractor and do better work then they have ever seen but am not brought back because they want to be “competitive”. This is why many residential buildings have gone from custom to mcmodern cookie cutter designs. This ensures that low baller bidders can hack out the job to passing standard, the general contractor is happy because he got the job and still charged his normal rate also same with architect and engineer. Meanwhile the skilled trades are disappearing being replaced with more and more hack jobs especially in the finish trades..... homeowners are clueless to good work as long as it look standard but most of the time they are in for a big surprise and cost of fixing things down the road. The funny thing is clients complain about price but my father who is also a high end tradesmen was charging higher prices in the 80s and 90s then I charge today and I don’t even stay busy all year round. I have to lower my standard to stay busy because I can bid things lower and it sucks because it’s hard to sleep at night knowing what I had to do just to get the damn job! This is a real reason skill is down because most realize they will be broke doing great work in today’s economy even though the rich have become richer they still carve this result out more and more. No one in higher standing is willing to step in for another, which ultimately will build better structures but America has become a sissy country giving up its integrity to the greed of Corporate America, the gap is widening every year. I can just walk into new homes now and cringe at what is being awarded as construction. Clients also don’t call tradesmen to build a home they first call a architect and find a builder, these professions are supposed to be our voice but they are almost mimicking corporate American thought on who really cares about the so called little guy as long as we get our cut! I see it all the time and I’m in California one of the priciest places to even be a legal contractor but still I loose bids to half legal or illegal contracts left and right. It’s becoming a joke.
That would be a tradesmen dream today for there to be an architect who had the knowledge to tell the client the reality and if you go over budget it’s because it’s custom work being done right with skill. I have known a few old school builders that my fathers company still works with that only take on jobs with this approach but they are far and few in between today. Last architect I worked with asked me to lower my price by about 30,000 dollars and I found out he had been convicted of 20 felonies! I finished the job with highly skilled workers that had been working for my family for 20 years now, it was a struggle I also worked the job missing out on some new projects along the way. I think they ended up having the architect serve like two months in jail and he is back in the area hiring mostly hack tradesmen living on an ocean front property. I can’t even imagine owning a home close to the ocean in this economy. Money and status talks in the world today it’s the only thing the human world respects. I am still paying off college loans, people don’t seem to care though if your a tradesmen that has completed a bachelors degree, they just judge you as a man who works with his hands and think the business side is not much. It’s not at all humane what’s happening today and will only get worse from where I see it. More and more cookie cutter paper trade contractors will take my jobs through high volume of projects bidding low and cutting all the corners to finish so they don’t loose their ass. I refuse to work this way honestly I feel like I am adding to the pile when I’m forced to and hate even thinking what I did on those projects. The funny thing is both sides of the spectrum usually can’t fully distinguish great work from hack work, there are exceptions to the rule but overall I feel homeowners are not educated at all by the architects or prime contractors. They sure as hell don’t ask all the trades much too, if they do it’s not very hard for a hack to bs a client and keep the job of course.
Sep 15, 18 12:58 pm ·
·
donadon
No that was not me who mentioned earlier the architect board. I am a trade contractor not an architect. I worked for an architect charged with 20 felonies or more I think. He basically submitted multiple forged and altered surveys to city and was caught. It was in the la times.
Sep 16, 18 12:36 pm ·
·
donadon
He was probably not convicted for all 20 + felonies or he would be in jail forever like you mentioned 3 strike rule. He took a please bargain and I think lost his license for a while but is back up and running in the same town.
Sometimes I do think heck I do have a degree why don’t I just become a financial contractor (bullshit artist) they make anywhere from 2x to 40x what a real contractor makes and they don’t do any labor just play with numbers. Same goes with financial engineer they make dreams with numbers and make 10x what a structural engineer makes but he knows how to build a damn bridge? It’s honestly a shame where we have taken the easy way out, allowing government and corporation to bind and run all aspects of currency today. Rome wasn’t built in a day in fact it’s still being built right here in America being run by mostly Zionist Jewish and their henchmen. Central bankers have a grip on the entire globe and are filthy rich, I honestly believe just one of their fortunes could end world hunger and build a thriving economy in almost every third world country, but they are power sick passing down their evil ways generation after generation building more and more wealth like dragons sitting on gold ready to strike anyone who even needs so much as 1 coin. Our culture actually thinks this is kool everyone thinks these people are gods or something. Even their public charities are all scams to make themselves a write off so they can avoid taxes and other regulations, they could care less about the charity it’s whats in it for them. Going off in another direction I could go on and on but hopefully the public will wake up one day.
Sep 15, 18 1:27 pm ·
·
JLC-1
Do it please, nobody's gonna wake up to be the way you think the world should be, ever
Sep 16, 18 11:28 pm ·
·
JLC-1
Hadn't read your stupid racist comment about jews- news for you, they've been at work since the moors left spain in 1250, instead of rantong ignorant crap on forum go to a library.
I'm a registered architect working for a CM. Tradespeople and contractors I've worked with don't mind competent architects who don't have an ego. I get teased by people around my age/title or below. It bothered me at first, but then I worked with some architects who did dreadful work. I've seen some perspectives and understand now.
I don't like architects with an ego, who do bad drawings, or won't commit to an answer/don't follow up. The foremen I know especially don't like architects who do poorly coordinated drawings, unconstructible designs, or take long to respond to RFIs.
Sep 16, 18 6:37 pm ·
·
JLC-1
You're talking about lazy people, entitled, had most of their lives handed to them in a silver tray, as they will do with their kids, it takes a couple of generations of real need to change the trend. It may very well be what America needs to go through.
As a teen I worked construction, sometimes on my father's projects. None of the tradesmen knew who I was so I got to hear a lot of bitching, some of which was quite accurate.
Everyone was working outside of their comfort zone. The old man was experimenting, the contractors had never seen anything like it.
Sep 16, 18 9:11 pm ·
·
JLC-1
As an architectural student i was graded for building a chapel and then for working in abuolding dpt, we had to have the priest and the chief building official to write the recommendations. I have never drawn anything i wasn't sure how to build, and it is appreciated by gc' s and my boss that's been building homes for the very wealthy for 40 years. If you dont know how to put it together, why did you drew it?
Sep 16, 18 11:34 pm ·
·
JLC-1
Your old man knew what he wanted to do and figured he had to know how to build it, be he wouldn't have asked any sub to do it if he couldn't
There was a moment in the late 60's and early 70's when the Hamptons was at the forefront of avant-garde residential architecture. Nobody had any experience building the things they did and there were some significant disasters, especially in terms of keeping water out. It was all brand new to architects and builders alike. Many of these buildings have aged poorly, especially in comparison to traditional houses that were a century or more in age at that time.
Sep 16, 18 11:40 pm ·
·
JLC-1
But you're still proud of them, and they may age poorly, but who doesn't - I guess my point was that your dad didn't see himself as something other or better than what these pricks call down as " construction workers"; I'm an architect by chance, formed and burnt outside yhe us and since I can't get a license in the birthplace of liberty
and justice, i just say I work in construction, because that's what i do, i dont escalate through meaningless titles.
My go-to HVAC guy - highly competent - has given up arguing with big city architects and their engineering firms. When they spec 70 tons of cooling capacity where 16 will do, he simply does the job knowing full well that they won't listen to him or allow him to engineer the systems and that in a year the owner will be calling to complain about the astronomical electric bills.
I can tell you about one not-really-an-architect-even-though-he-pretends-to-be who I know for a fact many contractors hate, and here is why:
1.Total prima donna who thinks his temper tantrums are evidence of his brilliance
2. Doesn't understand or refuses to understand that additional labor = additional cost
3. Steals others' work and claims it as his own, but threatens lawsuits if others claim any collaborative relationship whatsoever to his own work that could not be built at all if the contractors didn't figure out how to do it
4. Has at least one MAJOR contractor who has vowed to never, ever work with him again
5. Doesn't pay his architecture school graduate interns
Advice to real architects: don't do any of those things. They make all of us look bad.
How many contractors have been thrown under the bus by architects to cover their own incompetence?
Sep 18, 18 1:10 pm ·
·
mightyaa
@Miles.. How many architects have been tossed under the bus by incompetent contractors? Can't tell you how many times I've heard "I've always done it this way" by contractors who've tossed the installation manual, ignored drawings, don't bother with industry standards and generally seem to not understand simple physics of 'water flows downhill'
Sep 18, 18 3:49 pm ·
·
Non Sequitur
Mighty, just had that very discussion this morning.
Contractors do things by routine, they'll never push the boundaries unless they're explicitly asked, shown or proven that something could be done differently or better even. If it were up to them they'll gladly make the architectural equivalent of a black T-Ford all the bloody time. A tiring bunch...
Sep 19, 18 2:20 am ·
·
Wilma Buttfit
In Merica, it's more basic, like they need adult supervision like don't take a dump on the floor.
Sep 19, 18 9:52 am ·
·
mightyaa
The issue I normally see is what I'd call 'blow and go'. The sub-contractor comes in, rushes whatever it is they do, never coordinate or think about how their stuff interfaces with the other tradesmen, then they move on to their next project. It is about turn-around and profit margins... the architectural equivalent of paste and clip projects without effort to coordinate; "our consultants are supposed to coordinate with our work" bs.
Sep 19, 18 11:19 am ·
·
whistler
Sure, there are a lot of horror stories, but I have had a number of really great experiences with first rate creative craftsman, tradespeople and yes "contractors" who do amazing work. Not cheap and not interested is down the same thing overtime out, its inspiring when you have those kinds of people on a job site.
Sep 19, 18 2:15 pm ·
·
Non Sequitur
Whistler, had such a guy on my last large project (275k sqft office building). We had a nice lobby design with subtle reveals in the gypsum board that aligned with a big feature wood slat piece (which I also designed). The trades were having difficulty getting the 90d corners to work so one guy went home and build some sort of rig, on his own time, to ensure perfect corners. Certainly made my day.
Sep 19, 18 2:20 pm ·
·
whistler
A German cabinet maker I have worked with over the years has an awesome reputation in town, has a "reveal spacer kit" he built himself to ensure that every single reveal on the whole house is exactly same ... 1/8" or 3/16" or 1/2"... every reveal, I mean it,
he checks everything. It's comical but he doesn't fuck around... it's never done til Manfred says it's done!
The construction worker hates the architect....true???
that article has little to do with being vegan...it everything to do with being crazy and abusive.
plus, jonas77 said he/she(?) is a vegetarian...not vegan. different diets.
raw food is beyond vegan
Once on site once , A carpenter and his gang of craftsmen offered me some High-power chewing tobacco .....
well, after I tried it ,I had to control myself from almost fainting.....
I still think they did it on purpose.
the answer to the question is no. but the general contractor probably does.
from first principles:
people have been building buildings for like 8000 years. typically you built your own house, or your dad or grandfather or someone like that built it for you and thank god for that, because hand-milling wood and gathering rubble stone was hard. people did it as little as possible.
if you were like a sumerian king or a pharaoh or something, you rounded up a few thousand slaves to build your temple or pyramid or whatever.
but only sometime rather late in the time of the ancient egyptians did a guy step up and say, mr pharaoh, i know how your temple REALLY should work. imhotep, i am sure, was the bane of the slaves' existence.
if you just go out and build something, you learn only by what you've done wrong and what you've done right. if it didn't work last time, you try not to do it again -- or you do it again and hope it will work this time. if it worked, you sure as hell do it again, as close to the original as you can manage. because it worked, whatever it was.
you don't know the theory behind it. that shelter you built out of four columns (also known on the jobsite as "beams") and four beams (also known on the site as "posts") fell over in the wind. but when you rebuilt it and put some diagonal bracing at the corners (also known as "chingalera", see a previous post on construction spanish), it stood up kinda ok. so next time, you built it like that -- exactly like that, with the pegs in the same place and the carving in the same place because the gods must like egg-and-dart ornamentation.
fastforward to modern-day america, and the average guy behind the circular saw and the nail gun aren't much further along. some guy in a black shirt on a hot summer's day comes onto their site with that stupid drawing that ain't worth shit, they just disregard him until he makes them redo the damn detail. it matters not a lick that the guy in the black shirt has 3-5 years of professional education, 3-7 years of internship, and a professional license. he ain't never been in the trenches, and he's out of his mind, thinking you can't frame the rafters of a back porch directly onto masonry veneer, because that was how we did it at the last house and the owner never made a warranty claim.
I've nothing but good times with construction workers, even being commissioned by them to do other work. Which in my mind says alot. There are many horror stories with workers but I've found them more approachable you are and willing to listen as well as show them up on what they think they know about construction gains you in the end
if all else fails go shag his missus!
Why don’t architects explain more to the clients that the low bidders will never execute their custom plans? Why? If architects had good trade contractors to fall back on and recommend I think the clients would listen and their designs would be executed with skill. The same goes with the general contractor. Too often I work with a general contractor and do better work then they have ever seen but am not brought back because they want to be “competitive”. This is why many residential buildings have gone from custom to mcmodern cookie cutter designs. This ensures that low baller bidders can hack out the job to passing standard, the general contractor is happy because he got the job and still charged his normal rate also same with architect and engineer. Meanwhile the skilled trades are disappearing being replaced with more and more hack jobs especially in the finish trades..... homeowners are clueless to good work as long as it look standard but most of the time they are in for a big surprise and cost of fixing things down the road. The funny thing is clients complain about price but my father who is also a high end tradesmen was charging higher prices in the 80s and 90s then I charge today and I don’t even stay busy all year round. I have to lower my standard to stay busy because I can bid things lower and it sucks because it’s hard to sleep at night knowing what I had to do just to get the damn job! This is a real reason skill is down because most realize they will be broke doing great work in today’s economy even though the rich have become richer they still carve this result out more and more. No one in higher standing is willing to step in for another, which ultimately will build better structures but America has become a sissy country giving up its integrity to the greed of Corporate America, the gap is widening every year. I can just walk into new homes now and cringe at what is being awarded as construction. Clients also don’t call tradesmen to build a home they first call a architect and find a builder, these professions are supposed to be our voice but they are almost mimicking corporate American thought on who really cares about the so called little guy as long as we get our cut! I see it all the time and I’m in California one of the priciest places to even be a legal contractor but still I loose bids to half legal or illegal contracts left and right. It’s becoming a joke.
That would be a tradesmen dream today for there to be an architect who had the knowledge to tell the client the reality and if you go over budget it’s because it’s custom work being done right with skill. I have known a few old school builders that my fathers company still works with that only take on jobs with this approach but they are far and few in between today. Last architect I worked with asked me to lower my price by about 30,000 dollars and I found out he had been convicted of 20 felonies! I finished the job with highly skilled workers that had been working for my family for 20 years now, it was a struggle I also worked the job missing out on some new projects along the way. I think they ended up having the architect serve like two months in jail and he is back in the area hiring mostly hack tradesmen living on an ocean front property. I can’t even imagine owning a home close to the ocean in this economy. Money and status talks in the world today it’s the only thing the human world respects. I am still paying off college loans, people don’t seem to care though if your a tradesmen that has completed a bachelors degree, they just judge you as a man who works with his hands and think the business side is not much. It’s not at all humane what’s happening today and will only get worse from where I see it. More and more cookie cutter paper trade contractors will take my jobs through high volume of projects bidding low and cutting all the corners to finish so they don’t loose their ass. I refuse to work this way honestly I feel like I am adding to the pile when I’m forced to and hate even thinking what I did on those projects. The funny thing is both sides of the spectrum usually can’t fully distinguish great work from hack work, there are exceptions to the rule but overall I feel homeowners are not educated at all by the architects or prime contractors. They sure as hell don’t ask all the trades much too, if they do it’s not very hard for a hack to bs a client and keep the job of course.
No that was not me who mentioned earlier the architect board. I am a trade contractor not an architect. I worked for an architect charged with 20 felonies or more I think. He basically submitted multiple forged and altered surveys to city and was caught. It was in the la times.
He was probably not convicted for all 20 + felonies or he would be in jail forever like you mentioned 3 strike rule. He took a please bargain and I think lost his license for a while but is back up and running in the same town.
Sometimes I do think heck I do have a degree why don’t I just become a financial contractor (bullshit artist) they make anywhere from 2x to 40x what a real contractor makes and they don’t do any labor just play with numbers. Same goes with financial engineer they make dreams with numbers and make 10x what a structural engineer makes but he knows how to build a damn bridge? It’s honestly a shame where we have taken the easy way out, allowing government and corporation to bind and run all aspects of currency today. Rome wasn’t built in a day in fact it’s still being built right here in America being run by mostly Zionist Jewish and their henchmen. Central bankers have a grip on the entire globe and are filthy rich, I honestly believe just one of their fortunes could end world hunger and build a thriving economy in almost every third world country, but they are power sick passing down their evil ways generation after generation building more and more wealth like dragons sitting on gold ready to strike anyone who even needs so much as 1 coin. Our culture actually thinks this is kool everyone thinks these people are gods or something. Even their public charities are all scams to make themselves a write off so they can avoid taxes and other regulations, they could care less about the charity it’s whats in it for them. Going off in another direction I could go on and on but hopefully the public will wake up one day.
Do it please, nobody's gonna wake up to be the way you think the world should be, ever
Hadn't read your stupid racist comment about jews- news for you, they've been at work since the moors left spain in 1250, instead of rantong ignorant crap on forum go to a library.
the guy who has to tear out all the tile might hate me now. i can't blame him though.
One of the many wonderful things about working with real materials is they don't lie to you. Fuck it up and you have to deal with it.
they just installed the wrong tile. nothing but dumb.
I'm sure it was your fault tho.
I'm a registered architect working for a CM. Tradespeople and contractors I've worked with don't mind competent architects who don't have an ego. I get teased by people around my age/title or below. It bothered me at first, but then I worked with some architects who did dreadful work. I've seen some perspectives and understand now.
I don't like architects with an ego, who do bad drawings, or won't commit to an answer/don't follow up. The foremen I know especially don't like architects who do poorly coordinated drawings, unconstructible designs, or take long to respond to RFIs.
You're talking about lazy people, entitled, had most of their lives handed to them in a silver tray, as they will do with their kids, it takes a couple of generations of real need to change the trend. It may very well be what America needs to go through.
As a teen I worked construction, sometimes on my father's projects. None of the tradesmen knew who I was so I got to hear a lot of bitching, some of which was quite accurate.
Everyone was working outside of their comfort zone. The old man was experimenting, the contractors had never seen anything like it.
As an architectural student i was graded for building a chapel and then for working in abuolding dpt, we had to have the priest and the chief building official to write the recommendations. I have never drawn anything i wasn't sure how to build, and it is appreciated by gc' s and my boss that's been building homes for the very wealthy for 40 years. If you dont know how to put it together, why did you drew it?
Your old man knew what he wanted to do and figured he had to know how to build it, be he wouldn't have asked any sub to do it if he couldn't
There was a moment in the late 60's and early 70's when the Hamptons was at the forefront of avant-garde residential architecture. Nobody had any experience building the things they did and there were some significant disasters, especially in terms of keeping water out. It was all brand new to architects and builders alike. Many of these buildings have aged poorly, especially in comparison to traditional houses that were a century or more in age at that time.
But you're still proud of them, and they may age poorly, but who doesn't - I guess my point was that your dad didn't see himself as something other or better than what these pricks call down as " construction workers"; I'm an architect by chance, formed and burnt outside yhe us and since I can't get a license in the birthplace of liberty
and justice, i just say I work in construction, because that's what i do, i dont escalate through meaningless titles.
My go-to HVAC guy - highly competent - has given up arguing with big city architects and their engineering firms. When they spec 70 tons of cooling capacity where 16 will do, he simply does the job knowing full well that they won't listen to him or allow him to engineer the systems and that in a year the owner will be calling to complain about the astronomical electric bills.
Now multiply this by pretty much every trade ...
I can tell you about one not-really-an-architect-even-though-he-pretends-to-be who I know for a fact many contractors hate, and here is why:
1.Total prima donna who thinks his temper tantrums are evidence of his brilliance
2. Doesn't understand or refuses to understand that additional labor = additional cost
3. Steals others' work and claims it as his own, but threatens lawsuits if others claim any collaborative relationship whatsoever to his own work that could not be built at all if the contractors didn't figure out how to do it
4. Has at least one MAJOR contractor who has vowed to never, ever work with him again
5. Doesn't pay his architecture school graduate interns
Advice to real architects: don't do any of those things. They make all of us look bad.
Sturgeon's Law.
Designing a building is hard. For every GC or sub that shit-talks an architect for not getting it perfect, I would invite them attempt what we do.
How many contractors have been thrown under the bus by architects to cover their own incompetence?
@Miles.. How many architects have been tossed under the bus by incompetent contractors? Can't tell you how many times I've heard "I've always done it this way" by contractors who've tossed the installation manual, ignored drawings, don't bother with industry standards and generally seem to not understand simple physics of 'water flows downhill'
Mighty, just had that very discussion this morning.
It goes both ways. I've worn both hats and seen it from both sides. If you really want to get into it we should add decorators to the mix.
Agreed Miles; it is a two way street. I've seen architects who don't know diddly either and can't even recognize when the GC is covering for them.
Contractors read books about how to screw people over. Architects read books on ______?
Contractors do things by routine, they'll never push the boundaries unless they're explicitly asked, shown or proven that something could be done differently or better even. If it were up to them they'll gladly make the architectural equivalent of a black T-Ford all the bloody time. A tiring bunch...
In Merica, it's more basic, like they need adult supervision like don't take a dump on the floor.
The issue I normally see is what I'd call 'blow and go'. The sub-contractor comes in, rushes whatever it is they do, never coordinate or think about how their stuff interfaces with the other tradesmen, then they move on to their next project. It is about turn-around and profit margins... the architectural equivalent of paste and clip projects without effort to coordinate; "our consultants are supposed to coordinate with our work" bs.
Sure, there are a lot of horror stories, but I have had a number of really great experiences with first rate creative craftsman, tradespeople and yes "contractors" who do amazing work. Not cheap and not interested is down the same thing overtime out, its inspiring when you have those kinds of people on a job site.
Whistler, had such a guy on my last large project (275k sqft office building). We had a nice lobby design with subtle reveals in the gypsum board that aligned with a big feature wood slat piece (which I also designed). The trades were having difficulty getting the 90d corners to work so one guy went home and build some sort of rig, on his own time, to ensure perfect corners. Certainly made my day.
A German cabinet maker I have worked with over the years has an awesome reputation in town, has a "reveal spacer kit" he built himself to ensure that every single reveal on the whole house is exactly same ... 1/8" or 3/16" or 1/2"... every reveal, I mean it, he checks everything. It's comical but he doesn't fuck around... it's never done til Manfred says it's done!
Re 'blow and go' - when subs are beaten to near-death price-wise there is zero incentive for them to do anything except GTFO.
Yes, architects hate each other too. There's no winning.
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