oh yes, and you can do IDP concurrently to get reciprocity in other states/countries

also who can name some of the most famous architects who went this route(non traditional Architecture education)? FLW Solari Bruder

I myself am from a Multi-Media background but grew up immersed in green build design all my life, child labor does pay off sometimes.

OK nix Solari maybe add Jefferson?

yeah, i've thought about it. most of my friends in AZ are going through ncarb, though. its just more useful in the long run. you can do similar things in wisconsin and florida. probably wendell burnette went thru the system, but i really don't know. i would strongly recommend you do your idp thru ncarb, and just take your time. the apprenticeship system really doesn't have reciprocity in any other states, and rumor has it its to be phased out. firms will always have more respect for someone with a masters degree.

That's what I meant by IDP that you can do that at the same time as getting licensed in order to get the reciprocity elsewhere.

300$ to DC for that. 390$ + study material + 6 years working w/ architects sure is cheaper than accruing a mountain of debt.

looks like Burnette has his BA from ASU , if it was accredited I don't know, as it doesn't need to be.
I have substitute taught some alt. architecture classes there and now work for a ex-AIA president doing LEED facilities.

I sure hope to doubt the system would not change, I like that it is the state with the most opportunity, growing the fastest and with many freedoms(from no helmet seatbelt laws, to legal public breast feeding, legal abortion, legal to carry fire arms with no license, pro marijuana, and architecture through experience), for the time being at least.

Several states require an NCARB certificate as the only means to reciprocity (though many others have alternated routes). The only way to get a "standard" NCARB certificate is with an accredited B.Arch or M.Arch.

There's another type of NCARB certification - the "Broadly Experienced Professional" - but this requires at least 8 years of fulltime experience as a LICENSED architect in some state before you can apply, and it costs thousands of dollars, requires interviews and documentation of work, and it is not accepted by some states that require certification.

well arizona is the libertarian state, which is what i like about it as well. it will inevitably change as more people arrive, and inevitably compromise the quality of life. look at the tempe smoking law. also, burnette went to taliesin. he just teaches at asu, and was mostly self-taught.

I'm registered in Arizona, it is where I took my exams. I apprenticed into the profession. I personally think if someone can come off the street and sit down and pass the exam which happens to be the same exam someone with a Master's Degree is taking they should be allowed to practice Architecture. Apprenticing into the profession brings a broader segment of society into the field. There are completly capable people out there who do not have the financial means to spend six years in college, but who could be vital people in
the profession.

yes, the Tempe smoking ordinance is a change and so is all of the gentrification occurring(high density urban loft living and cityscape project), the smoking law goes into effect May 1st statewide based on the last election (most people who smoke voted against smoking knowing it's harmful) What I have more qualms with and is more troubleing is the selling of public space to developers (Red Development) of the last public park in downtown Phoenix and the homless camping ordinance act in Tempe that says you can't sit for more than 15 min., you can't organize personal things, you can't rest. Another Food Not Bombs person was arrested yesterday in Orlando for feedign homeless, ACLU is on that case now.

I agree snooker we are fortunate to be able to have my license this way, a different kind of breed that brings fresh air to what can be a very conformist profession.

le bossman: with 50,000 people moving hear a month, i actually think it gets more diversity and this the only avenue is more libertarian/rugged individualistic, and with new pollution caps, city green build programs and the Light Rail coming more socialistic too.

Jonas - for as much debate the current state of Architecture Education gets, it still is very useful and fundamental in training the future of this field.

Sure, some great architects were never formally taught, and I'd never downplay the real life experience a good apprenticeship provides.

Then again I feel states like AZ that allow people to circumvent the "diploma first" route are doing a great disservice to the profession as a whole. Much in a similar fashion as engineers and other contractors try to chip away at the architect's sphere of influence.

Would you like someone to operate on you who never went to medical school, but only worked as an assistant, was good at studying and passed some exams? Especially when their main motivation in this route was to save some student loan debt?!?

If we want to remain a professional occupation a college degree should become mandantory. If anything, states should be tightening their standards. The architect will not regain a status of master builder by letting anyone with a few years of experience join the club.

actually aquapura, the questions you ask in your fourth paragraph is very good and something that i've been grappling with. I wouldn't want someone doing surgery on me that has never been to medical school, but sometimes I do feel some doctors are over-qualified, over-educated and frankly too expensive for the services they provide. Is it any wonder that America has the least affordable healthcare among developed countries? What is the point of advanced knowledge if only the select few have access? This isn't always the case, but larger corporations like their employers to have advanced degrees so they can legitimitely charge their customers/patients/clients more for their services and therefore earn more profit - not necessarily because they would be providing a better service. Lets be honest here. The professional PRACTICE of architecture is learned in the workplace anyway and success is up to the individual. If someone is willing to put in the years of apprenticeship and contribute to this profession, I say go for it. Architecture has been done that way for much longer than how its done now.

I fully disagree aquapura
what you say is fascistic to be honest to deny choice and to create barriers and entropy all seemingly in some self egotistic feeling your profession my be diminished. HAH

I would quite be OK with a non-Phd operating on me np if the route to gain technical registration is through experience and testing outside of ridged centralized regulatory bodies I am all for it this prevents the entropy that is our enemy.

I am disappointed that you continue a pompous attitude that would be better off to be lessened to help create a sustainable cooperative future.

Knowledge and access denied is human rights violations, the laws of math are well defined, ideas can't be owned, globalization as is currently does NOT work.

& all I hear is nightmares about schooling and get ridicule for not having gone to 'traditional craft schooling' from 'masters' what a power trip.
that goes back to the question of 'how much are you willing to do to maintain your privilege?' It is a question that will be asked for a long time to come as we sort out all these illegal wars to secure energy resources and demonize those who don't cooperate with the expectations of plutocrats and their cogs, with that fake 'evil' myth of redemptive violence lie.

good comment Philarch

aqua....I just chuckle...cause I had people working on projects I was running with Master's Degrees. I must also reveal, I'm crap at taking test. However I know my way around architecture, I have been in practice for myself for ten years and I do have a number of nice projects under my belt, and another thing they all respect the health,
safety and welfare of the public. As for another perspetive, who do you think designed most of the building of the world as we know it?
It would be apprentices.....those who learned by doing in the Great Civilizations of the world, not the throw away society we live in today.

I also want you to know those people I worked with on projects were
always greatful when I guided them to becoming better architects.
For this I was given alot of respect.

It just happened I stumbled into the profession when I was eighteen.
People were good to me and say that I had desire to learn but they also knew I did not come from money so they guided me and supported me as I grew.

When I sat for my exams, for me it was a grand moment and I have never looked back. I do wish there were many more who would be given this opportunity in our American Society, the Land of the Free.

First of all, I don't hold a master's degree, nor think a "graduate" education should be a requirement for this profession. In my honest opinion the 5-year BArch is still the superior degree.

My problem with getting registered w/out degree is the state of AZ, NCARB, AIA, etc. make no distinction between that architect and the one that has a professional college degree.

So if a state like AZ wants to let people w/out degrees sit for licensing exams and gain professional registration, fine. Then we just need a different national body that can differentiate the different backgrounds of said professionals. Example, the AIA behind ones name tells a client they should expect a certian level of professionalism and service. If the AIA decided they would only accept members with a professional college degree then you'd have definition. The client would be fully in his rights to hire what ever architect they wish. Similar situations can apply to doctors, lawyers, or anyone who needs a professional registration of some type.

This isn't about maintaining priveledge or human rights. I worked my ass off to get through college both financially and educationally and fully think I'm a better architect for the experience I gained there. Frankly I think it's pompus to think education is over-rated and unnecessary.

aquapura....oh ya I forgot to mention I have had my own practice for ten years...and yes I do have some big spender clients....who could care less if I have a degree or not.

aquapura: that's basically why the NCARB certificate exists. NCARB certification requires a license in at least one state, completion of IDP and the ARE, and a professional B.Arch or M.Arch. Clients can easily look up certification status on NCARB's website. (This is not the same thing as having a council record and completing IDP. It's a different application process that doesn't happen until after you're already licensed in at least one state.)

It's possible to get the "Broadly Experienced Professional" certification without an accredited degree, if you have a minimum of 8 years of experience as a licensed architect in a state that allows that (like AZ), and pass the interview and portfolio review processes. The BEP certification process typically takes 3 years to get through and is pretty rigorous (only a few people per year get through this successfully). But even then, your certification is identified as a BEP certificate - not the standard certification. So if the client is very concerned with the architect's education then NCARB certification is the credential to check for.

The AIA isn't a regulatory power, it's just a professional club. While some clients may be confused by AIA advertising and believe that "AIA" after one's name is some indicator of quality, the AIA does not verify any credentials other than license status and completion of the minimum number of continuing ed credits each year (which most states require anyway, regardless of AIA membership). It's not the AIA's responsibility to distinguish between architects with various educational and professional backgrounds or by which route they took to licensure. That's NCARB's job, and NCARB does that.

it's BEA

waxwings: thanks for the correction. It used to be BEP (still is in my state's statutes).

eeayeeayo - thanks for the clarification about the NCARB certificate. My knowledge of it is only as a way to reduce the hassles of gaining licensure in multiple states.

I understand that the AIA isn't a regulatory power, nor do I want it to act as one. I was just using it as an example since it's more visible to the public than NCARB. I do think it would be of great service to the AIA to make those letters behind ones name mean a bit more than paying some dues and earning continuing ed. After all, to the layman, AIA means architect as much as MD means doctor.

Mostly I'm surprised by the vitriolic responses to my attitude that a formal education should be a part of an architect's training. I'm sorry if anyone has taken it as an attack on their ability. However I do find it awfuly conceited to feel one is above a formal education.

I went to college with several classmates that were much older than me. People that had worked in the profession w/out degree and went back because they saw a benefit to the education. If you disagree with that being necessary for you, that's your choice, as much as it's AZ's choice to have the licensing rules they have. I disagree with them but I guess that means we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Aquapura, Life is an education my friend. I see nothing wrong with the formality of an education in a University setting. In fact it is something everyone should have the opportunity to have, but the facts bear different. Take a look at lack of diversity in the Architectural Field and maybe, you will see that we are locking alot of people out of the profession by pushing everyone into the University setting. It is not that not educated, I do have some 150 hours of University Credit, just not in all the pigeon hole slots some Univerisity administrator believes they should be in. I also worked while at the University in an Architectural firm which was frowned upon at the time by the professors. Even though my boss was a graduate school alumni of the institution where I attended.

I think people miss much of the point of education in architecture, technicals skills are not that difficult, people who cant pass the GED can build a house that won't fall down, and that meets code. The process of design is more than that, and there is a lot to be said for the academic process that occurs through a multi step process of education.
BTW, AZ is not the only state that does this, MD and GA are two, I think you can still licence in GA without ever stepping foot in a university.

is it possible for me to get licensed in ohio without taking the exams again?
i have a license in california and i didn't do idp.

caffinejunkie....what the heck do you think a guy is doing in an office if they are not developing design skills? The multi step process of design in an office is as valid as any university taught design process of education. The difference is you are working on projects which will most likely be built, so it is even more fulfilling than burning a model at the end of the semester.

Orhan: sure you can get licensed in Ohio without taking the exams again. But you'll have to do the IDP paperwork retroactively. Ohio requires NCARB certification to apply for reciprocity. The NCARB certification process takes 6 to 8 months usually.
You should also check directly with the Ohio board though, because for a long time they were one of the only states that had a rule limiting the amount of IDP experience that you could report retroactively (it was 6 months if you were in the state, and 2 years if you were out of state or had just moved there). I don't know if they still have that rule.

thank you Needlebeam.