I cut my teeth on the 3D world builder that came with Halflife back in 1999. Not even kidding. Maybe that's why I still make boxes. I kind of need to learn how to make those swoopy surfaces better since those are like...the hip thing these days.
This is my experience.
I've seen many architects disappointed by Revit, infact they have switched back to Autocad or Archicad.
Maz and Viz are both by Autodesk now, so they are the same program now.
Maya is a little more complicated than the others, but once you have learned it, you can do whatever you want to do.
Rhino is fine.
I've learned to use Max, because it gave me a good base on how 3d rendering programs work and because it's widely used in studios I've been working with.
Studios that use Maya usually send their project out to have them done by graphic designers not by architects.
In college we learned FormZ, a cumbersome program that I'm told has gotten better and still has a strong following amongst Mac users. During thesis I taught myself 3D Studio Max and am still very happy with the program. It's alot deeper than FormZ and so takes more time to comprehend but it's capable of doing quite a bit, just get a lighting renderer to go with.
I know some firms that do their models inhouse and their people use Maya, but they're really into the 3d modelling and hard core, I've run across many more firms asking for Viz/Max experience, which as matteo says are the same program, Max is just a little more powerful.
I'm sure you already know this, but if you're going to learn the program make sure you have something to do, don't just sit down with it and play. I'm pretty good at learning new programs and I have to reteach myself half the things I already knew with 3DS every time I go to use it.
Look. Revit is not a 3d tool persay, it's an information modeler, it does have drawbacks, but once hardware and operating systems catch up, it will be the thing that everyone wants it to be. i am for one at the same time geeked with its potential and frustrated by its demand for faster and more capable hardware components. like autocad was maybe only 12-15 years ago, revit is at that same place, the worm will turn.
as for 3d, i think Rhino - and i have very limited exposure to Rhino - is the tool with the most potential, and is very much in the same boat as Revit, in terms of its infancy, it seems to have more flexibility and user control than other tools. Maya, has couple of drawbacks, least of all is the price, but i think once you get passed that i am left to wonder, so what? what is so special about it? sure the capabilities are top notch, but so what?
i think i am correct in saying that if you use rhino, then some other rendering tool is necessary, but that is another issue.
u can use flamingo to render in rhino, it has good quality if u spend the right time mapping the materials, and choosing good maps for its materials, anyways i use it sometimes and takes shorter than MAX...
i think u best option is not to know only one 3d tool, try several and then u will see which one adapts better to ur necesities.... i use rhino/max/acad
...and then also u can photoshop/illustrator everything
rhino is not "in it's infancy" like revit... the interface is just simple because it's a very small company that refuses to be bought out... plus this is THE nurb program...
imho, rhino is the best modeling tool. easy to learn, especially if you're used to the autocad interface...
imho, max is one of the best, most flexible, rendering tools with loads of third party plugs.
although, i haven't used flamingo or maya. i learned on form-z. stay away from being attracted to this program, i learned on it. people who use it, sware by it. but i think it takes way to long to model in it, and the lighting and rendering is pretty bad...
max/viz is probably the one of the more common programs used at arch firms.
Rhino and Max are a nice combo...once you know one the rest are relatively easy. I now know sketchup, Revit, Vectorworks, Maya, Modo, Max, Viz, Rhino, Form Z...etc...there is something each program does better than the others...with that said, I do think Max and Rhino are a very nice combo.
3D programs is that like a set square and some graph leaves?
Anyhow a bit of odd Sunday humour. I learnt Max and found very easy to switch to FormZ (at the time they had just made it for pc)...I actually preferred the latter. I however think that they both take you away from the point which is to create good work. If however you aren't looking at becoming a top notch architect I would suggest you learn the right way of doing. I know they have these excellent tutored courses that teach you about the layers, etc that I've never used. I'm a hatch - what can i say.
But the best 3D I ever did was a photograph of a model and edited in illustrator + photoshop. But i'm a tactile sob, and that's how I like it!
Personally I find the combination of Rhino and Maya to work really well, with Autocad for 2D.
Rhino is at the centre of this process. It imports and exports really well, in IGES format with Maya, and DWG format with Autocad. It's easy to model in Rhino. It is Nurbs based, so it goes back and forth to Maya without the glitchy triangulation that you get if you use FormZ or Sketchup. Rhino also goes well with CNC, and parametric modelers like Generative Components, when you want to fabricate. Rhino's user interface is also a joy to use.
Maya is used for animation and rendering. mental ray is a really powerful rendering tool. It has incredible richness of lighting and texturing. It's also really fast. I find animation a good way to explain your 3D design process, which can otherwise be quite opaque.
And Rhino began life as a 3D plugin for Autocad, so it works well with that.
i came to realize that you cant get hired in the profession without knowing a 3d program...... which is total bullshit....... you can have 10 great things but the one thing that you cant do is what will hinder yourself from the job........
sort of funny how a person can have experience in both detailing and construction but cant get a fuckn job in the field cause he doesnt know viz/max/etc ......... been there too many times...
i think if you just pick one, like Rhino or maya or others mentioned above, get a project to work on and go for it. Once you learn one, switching to another is fairly easy. The key is understanding 3dmodeling in general at first. I started on FormZ in school. Then swithced to 3dmax, then to Rhino. Now the firm I'm at uses acad and Viz, so I use that. You never know what firm you'll end up with and what platform and software they will use so you need to be somewhat versatile anyways.
I use Revit for all my 3d modeling, documentation and quick rendering. I use MAX for final rendering. Occasionally i might need an extreme shape that can be easily created with nurbs and then i use Rhino. Rhino imports seamlessly into Revit. http://www.wikihow.com/Create-a-Freeform-Roof-in-Revit
when i mean in its infancy, i mean it's clear that - at least to me - that Rhino's potential is not tapped out, Autocad can only refine what exists, and the same with Max, while Rhino can still go much farther - it's rendering component is just one example.
i use houdini & Maya. form are drawned by specification or writing script. very fast and powerful. is mostly used by hollywood for special effects like at the beginning of the movie.
just want to know any maya/max user after they design their form there, how to make it into working drawings or give dimension to it? transport to autocad?
Learn 3D modelling and rendering in both AutoCAD and 3D studio max/viz. The reason being, MAX and AutoCAD are both autodesk and they translate well with one another... Autocad sucks for 3D but its autocad so at times when you are building a model and working in 2D drafting mode, you can throw up some stuff you want in autocad and then send to Max for final rendering... Or you can do something more free and schematic massing studies quick in max and then throw back to autocad to refine it in 2D section, etc... then maybe throw back to Max... Know both...
Eventually learn Revit. Autocad will "BE Revit" eventually... Its a matter of time before parametric modelling and drafting are packaged as one product... Might take a decade or might be in a couple years, but it'll happen... Basically, despite what people say about Revit's clunky free modelling, I think it's decent... If you know how to model in other software like Autocad or 3D studio, you can pretty much build anything in Revit... But when you learn Revit, take a class...
AutoCAD, 3D Studio, and Revit. They are all autodesk, they are all useful for different things.
Of course, you need to know photoshop to be able to manipulate materials well for any kind of rendering with any software...
1. AutoCAD 2D (and photoshop)
2. AutoCAD 3D (which, because you already know the environment makes the leap to a 3D modeling simpler)
3. 3D Studio (this part will be the harder leap from autocad... some people love it some hate it... but LEARN it...) The key is: 3D Studio will be fun once you let yourself be more freeform and its intuitive, play with shapes... And then apply "modifiers" to shapes... But once you learn this, you can always just model in Autocad like you already did before and then import to 3D studio to render... Apply materials, set up cameras, lights in 3D studio which is much much easier...
4. REVIT (if you already know both autocad 2D and 3D, and 3D studio, this will be pretty easy to pick up...)
AutoCAD is to Revit, as
Microsoft Word is to Microsoft Excel
If you know how to use it, then it can be a very powerful design tool. Especially Form Finding it's great, but I always recommend people to use Rhino in the meantime untill they master Revit. You can import .SAT files into Revit that MAX and MAYA can't do, so your model will not be lost in the transition.
If I could only learn one program, I'd opt for Max. If I could learn two I'd go with the FormZ or Rhino to model, Max to render.
Maya, C4D, Lightwave, Modo, etc., are all good programs, but it's not going to help you get a job.
I hope Adesk does kill Maya and offer more versions of Max. One version for big bucks is a rip off, imo. Upgrades cost more than the competition!!
(I haven't even installed my upgrades to 9 because of so many problems)
Rhino is an absolute MUST!!! It is the most capable program that is absolutely mandatory as a way to build/analyze models.
Maya is great for deforming. Dynamics represent an amazingly rich and powerful way of deriving form based on scientific principles of thermodynamics. Time line or frame based replications are powerful.
Max to render. Why learn how to model in there? You can link a model in max to a rhino file and all your rhino layers can be imported making material assignments easy.
AutoCAD to draw. Lines and points are easily exported/imported. DXF's and DWG's are pretty universal.
Now....the next generation is Generative Components. This is the gravy on the cake. AMAZING relationship modeler for component based systems. This program is making waves and will continue to. Think the logic of RhinoScripting with GUI interface. It is still in Beta testing and is very buggy, but the implications on design are already apparent. And it exports well to Rhino or AutoCAD 3d.
In all, there is no one perfect program. You have to know a whole range of programs to getwhat you want. On a recent project it went like this:
-draw curves in Phino
-create a surface and populate the surface with a component in
GC
- export to rhino to create meshes
- export to Pepakura to unfold the meshes
- export to AutoCAD to get lines for a laser cut file
- export to my desk for manual assembly
No rendering needed, or else, insert export to 3ds Max.
I learned Rhino in school a few years ago, but is anyone, outside of small faculty-associated boutique firms, using it in the professional world? I don't know any firms that are using its CNC capabilities for building-scale work (a few that are using it for modelmaking).
To be practical (which is usually a bad thing in architecture), learn AutoCAD and Max/Viz. It's the standard. Everyone uses it.
Whoever made the comment to just learn 3D modelling in general regardless of program is right. All programs are in principle the same. It's only a matter of learning a new interface and output capabilities, if you switch.
first of all i would like to thank all who contributed to this post! the immense response from y'all is very much appreciated! i would have to spend time to browse over all your entries!
i am stating some varied reactions and comments here as my mind is still in a mess, however, i will be following up with some questions later on.
judging from all your comments it seems 3d viz / max is the most suitable (at least for now) to learn.
I already know how to use autocad 2d, microstation 2d, acad 3d, and sketchup, and was thinking bout this jump to know about viz /max. though i dont aim to be an expert renderer i do notice that most firms do look for knowledge in viz and max. i noticed some others look for maya knowledge as well.
about the flexibility with different programs, wouldn't that make you a jack of all trades and a master of none?
As someone mentioned above...there are so many common terms and processes that each 3D program incorporates.
Things like NURBS, Booleans, Polygons, Vertices, etc., etc., are all pretty much the same.
If you learn one really well, and truly understand how things work, then jumping to a new program won't be starting over. It'll take time. of course, but when you understand certain things you can take them with you to a new program.
No one knows where Maya and Max will head to. Basically, there is nothing one can do the other can't. 5 years ago that was different, but not so much anymore. With Adesk owning both, it doesn't seem to make much sense keeping both parallel for too long. My bet is that Maya becomes more effects and character driven (where it got its reputation in Hollywood) and Max goes more towards ArchViz and real time production (where it is solidly entrenched in the gaming and ArchViz world).
Learn Max, learn to render (I'd suggest either Final Render or VRay) and you'll have a great asset in your skillset.
The idea that all 3D programs are similar holds true except for parametric modellers, which represent fundamentally different ways of thinking. I expect we will see parametric and BIM modeling becoming standard practice in the not-so-distant future - designers that can work with these tools will be in great demand. But these are not at all the same as Rhino, Max, SketchUp, etc. Max and Maya are *kinda* parametric, but not to the extent of Generative Components, Digital Project, or SolidWorks.
I would make sure to learn at least one parametric modeler while you are at it. It takes a different mindset and a bit more of a time commitment, but they are amazing tools that far exceed other options in terms of surface and solid modeling.
thank you trace
do you think max has more of an advantage as an exploratory and advanced tool for modelling than viz?
i understand viz is more for architecture but so far i think its more for euclidean and 'commercial' architecture with the basic forms.. somehow i thnk max has scripting which enables it to do stuff like what DRL people do...
thank you flashpan
your advice somehow tells me that there is an advantage in terms of future potential for BIM modelers, just like how autocad (and computers) took the architectural world by storm.
however, i'd really like to become a better designer rather than a better 3d modeller or cad specialist. do you think these programs aid in the acceleration of realizing a design, or do they sometimes get in the way of the actual design process?
- i mean, sometimes we think of an idea but end up thinking of what steps to take /tools to use to create such a form (which is the idea) in the virtual space.
: almost all of my impressions are based on using these on my own (since employers prefer to hire people with cad experience who don't know what they're drawing, versus hiring people who know what they're drawing, but haven't had the chance to work the requisite one year with cad).
2nd caveat: I've used Revit only with tutorials and some of my old drawings alongside. (there are errors in tutorials, btw) I haven't used family editor, but I've edited (sometimes extensively) the prefab elements via properties subdialogs.
big deficit from Landscape pov: none of these 3d programs work well for freeform geometry (landscape). the best modelers (such as Revit) are efficient because they make good 3d assumptions about 2d inputs. So for landscape/grades, elevations numbers (and notes) on a plan are as good.
also, beginning design on paper is still fastest. you need scrawl only what your brain needs to work things out. often this consists of plans on flimsy with a lot of text scribbles, calculations, and a few intricate perspective details (eg, non orthogonal intersection or miscellaneous oddities/freakouts). i can mush a lot of alts, overlaid partial alts, etc. (you get the idea) onto a series of flimsies. all rapidly accessible. most of your brainpower goes to DESIGN, rather than leaked while friggin with the ominpresent holey condom limitations of 2d interface.
One obvious unavoidable design need for good 3d software: (structural!!) intersection of two or more compound curves or solids. I'm not sure how you'd attempt that using "paper" because I'm pretty sure the connection/intersection requires a lot of series calculations with special boundaries (connection method: weld types, etc) Numerically intensive. (matlab???)
revit
compared to boggy acad, Revit's amazing. (besides "smart" 3d assumptions) another of Revit's big advantage: Revit's UI changes to conform to the task being performed, so less cruft gets in your way. The revit way isn't obvious with 1st use, and you're still a slave to the method the software uses (ugh!), but you catch on quick. (unlike acad, which forces you to frig around with it forever, while it stomps on your toes, and twists your sensitive bits. link )
I've noticed that Revit still requires some workarounds, and hopefully those will be fixed.
though adsk had added on some nice stuff to acad, it still seems mostly a *polar DOS program that's been poorly skinned over with win dialogs. and the berzhillions of 'hidden' modes and variables that need to be set to fix some mysteriously boneheaded result; that's not sane. (though I've read that revit's got some of those, too.)
i don't know when there will be something like revit for terrain-type design. but in these dying acad days, I'd rather learn a viable minority software (eg, Vectorworks) in production environment, rather than acad in production.
despite my b1tching, after reading how much hardware Revit needs, i now feel a bit of sympathy for adsk dragging the world along on acad. link i guess PC hardware couldn't handle anything better (acknowledging the usual economic tradeoff: software writing methods vs efficient code)
SketchUp is easy to run, but i don't see the current version producing anything more than basic presentation.
i haven't yet tried any of those other 3d rendering progs (bryce, blender, maya?, max, formz, c4d, etc) But from general design POV, real modeling (dimensions and properties/materials and "accessories") such as Revit's, is worth a lot more because you're really designing something, rather than depicting something (in a very cumbersome manner)
the npower nurbs and solids makes max a totally different modeler...much more control...email them, they have student prices that they do not advertise which are very reasonable.
Also, all the tools use the history palette as well...so you can constantly change your work at any point in the modeling 'history'...very nice...check out their quicktime tutorials on their site...there are some nice examples.
the idea that max will replace maya at autodesk is a very architectural point of view. in maya's market, architecture is just a blip. it is mainly used by the film industry. maya is going to be around for a very long time. and there are plenty of cracked copies around.
aspect:
i've never had mental ray crash on me. i find it stable, fast and powerful.
trace:
formz is the fastest to model? have you tried rhino? i used formz for a year, then swtiched to rhino. it was like going from crawling to walking. rhino's interface is way more intuitive. also it has a lot in common with autocad, so if you know that, you will pick up rhino faster, and vice versa.
1. max (for project integration & pre-rendering)
2. acad (for all the usual stuff)
3. rhino for blobby stuff, as needed, exported as dxf's
4. final render (for rendering)
Works wonders...
There should be laws against sketchup use by architects (I hope firms adopting it to save money find that they have trouble recruiting) and form-z use by anybody (scripters be darned)
ah.. yes, also don't forget arcmap/arcscene for sitework dimensioning and stuff, if you have GIS data available. acad drawings now map easily into arcmap via geocoding. Pretty cool stuff...
cjw - for design, I still use FormZ. Max is just too slow to redraw (even with great graphic cards - I've used everything from $500 cards to $3500 cards with little noticeable difference).
graham - nope, never worked with Rhino. I have only heard good things about it. I use so many shortcuts with FMZ (almost all programs, really), so I don't really care much about an interface. It's the speed of going from one tool to another that I care about.
Any program that uses sub-object selections and modeling is going to be really slow for architecture. That's what I love most about FormZ - select Point, drag around all the points, then move and viola! The ALL the windows and frames and details are now 3' taller!
To be honest, I barely model anymore (gots people for that), so I can't say for sure where Max is now. I've heard 9 is much better with OpenGL and wireframes, but I am waiting to install my upgrades for a while (gotta keep compatible, one of the worst things with Max is that you can't down save).
cjw - I stick with Max vs. Viz because there are a few tools taht I need in Max. But for most folks Viz is fine. They are both the 'same' program, Max just has more features (like effects, character studio, etc.), but you can get super results from either.
I've met people who love it and people who hate it... I think it comes down to whether you are used to its interface or not. I think most people who love it are the ones who started with it.
Form Z has always seemed to me a modeller with the most sensible and simple enough toolset structure and logic... Naturally being able to select by different type of subobject, etc... But I've always hated the clunky interface, tool bars and the awkward way you navigate in a view... Maybe this is a lame reason not to use a software, but I also hate the appearance of the new toolbar icons... All of these icons look similar and the logic of how toolbars are laid out doesnt make any sense...! So the interface generally bugs me... But it has some pretty powerful and robust tools, I'd say it's similar to basic Microstation 3D with the added power of the Max-like subobjects... Everything is a tool, vs. Max where you have to add modifiers, etc.
Never used Form Z enough to actually set up a whole series of personal shortcuts, only ever used it in school so I had to use the default setup on the lab computers... That was my major beef with FormZ, the awkward user interface, etc. vs. Max which has a very intuitive ergonomic key layout, very intuitive and smooth way in which you can navigate within a view, pan with the mouse, etc. But I guess I can see how FormZ might be a good choice if you are able to personalize all of commands into a comfortable shortcut arrangement, or if you were accustomed to its interface...
bRink, I think you are spot on with the interface. Spending so much time in these softwares really makes you attune to a bad one. When you have to think about the interface, and it inhibits work flow - it is bad. FormZ & Microstation/Triforma (for me) are exemplary of this problem. The fact that you have to pick a button to pan and rotate is just archaic.
Rhino, especially the new version 4, is completely smooth and doesn't hinder work flow. It is customizable and as simple or complex as you want it to be. Sketchup has probably nailed it, even though the toolset isn't as vast as some of the others, but still really intuitive. Haven't used viz or max enough to weigh in.
If someone could figure out a way to get feature modeling to be as fluid as some of the others (or apply feature sets to geometry modeled in another software) - I would be sold.
Mar 4, 07 4:38 pm ·
·
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.
worthwhile to learn which 3D program
ive been thinkin bout enrollin in a course for learnin 3D visualization...
what do you guys think is worthwhile to learn? Viz? Max? Rhino? Maya? Revit?
i'm thinkin long term benefits as well (i.e. importance in employment and professional circuit)
I cut my teeth on the 3D world builder that came with Halflife back in 1999. Not even kidding. Maybe that's why I still make boxes. I kind of need to learn how to make those swoopy surfaces better since those are like...the hip thing these days.
This is my experience.
I've seen many architects disappointed by Revit, infact they have switched back to Autocad or Archicad.
Maz and Viz are both by Autodesk now, so they are the same program now.
Maya is a little more complicated than the others, but once you have learned it, you can do whatever you want to do.
Rhino is fine.
I've learned to use Max, because it gave me a good base on how 3d rendering programs work and because it's widely used in studios I've been working with.
Studios that use Maya usually send their project out to have them done by graphic designers not by architects.
In college we learned FormZ, a cumbersome program that I'm told has gotten better and still has a strong following amongst Mac users. During thesis I taught myself 3D Studio Max and am still very happy with the program. It's alot deeper than FormZ and so takes more time to comprehend but it's capable of doing quite a bit, just get a lighting renderer to go with.
I know some firms that do their models inhouse and their people use Maya, but they're really into the 3d modelling and hard core, I've run across many more firms asking for Viz/Max experience, which as matteo says are the same program, Max is just a little more powerful.
I'm sure you already know this, but if you're going to learn the program make sure you have something to do, don't just sit down with it and play. I'm pretty good at learning new programs and I have to reteach myself half the things I already knew with 3DS every time I go to use it.
Good luck!
Look. Revit is not a 3d tool persay, it's an information modeler, it does have drawbacks, but once hardware and operating systems catch up, it will be the thing that everyone wants it to be. i am for one at the same time geeked with its potential and frustrated by its demand for faster and more capable hardware components. like autocad was maybe only 12-15 years ago, revit is at that same place, the worm will turn.
as for 3d, i think Rhino - and i have very limited exposure to Rhino - is the tool with the most potential, and is very much in the same boat as Revit, in terms of its infancy, it seems to have more flexibility and user control than other tools. Maya, has couple of drawbacks, least of all is the price, but i think once you get passed that i am left to wonder, so what? what is so special about it? sure the capabilities are top notch, but so what?
i think i am correct in saying that if you use rhino, then some other rendering tool is necessary, but that is another issue.
u can use flamingo to render in rhino, it has good quality if u spend the right time mapping the materials, and choosing good maps for its materials, anyways i use it sometimes and takes shorter than MAX...
i think u best option is not to know only one 3d tool, try several and then u will see which one adapts better to ur necesities.... i use rhino/max/acad
...and then also u can photoshop/illustrator everything
RHINO + MAX
revit is not a 3d tool
rhino is not "in it's infancy" like revit... the interface is just simple because it's a very small company that refuses to be bought out... plus this is THE nurb program...
imho, rhino is the best modeling tool. easy to learn, especially if you're used to the autocad interface...
imho, max is one of the best, most flexible, rendering tools with loads of third party plugs.
although, i haven't used flamingo or maya. i learned on form-z. stay away from being attracted to this program, i learned on it. people who use it, sware by it. but i think it takes way to long to model in it, and the lighting and rendering is pretty bad...
max/viz is probably the one of the more common programs used at arch firms.
Rhino and Max are a nice combo...once you know one the rest are relatively easy. I now know sketchup, Revit, Vectorworks, Maya, Modo, Max, Viz, Rhino, Form Z...etc...there is something each program does better than the others...with that said, I do think Max and Rhino are a very nice combo.
3D programs is that like a set square and some graph leaves?
Anyhow a bit of odd Sunday humour. I learnt Max and found very easy to switch to FormZ (at the time they had just made it for pc)...I actually preferred the latter. I however think that they both take you away from the point which is to create good work. If however you aren't looking at becoming a top notch architect I would suggest you learn the right way of doing. I know they have these excellent tutored courses that teach you about the layers, etc that I've never used. I'm a hatch - what can i say.
But the best 3D I ever did was a photograph of a model and edited in illustrator + photoshop. But i'm a tactile sob, and that's how I like it!
Personally I find the combination of Rhino and Maya to work really well, with Autocad for 2D.
Rhino is at the centre of this process. It imports and exports really well, in IGES format with Maya, and DWG format with Autocad. It's easy to model in Rhino. It is Nurbs based, so it goes back and forth to Maya without the glitchy triangulation that you get if you use FormZ or Sketchup. Rhino also goes well with CNC, and parametric modelers like Generative Components, when you want to fabricate. Rhino's user interface is also a joy to use.
Maya is used for animation and rendering. mental ray is a really powerful rendering tool. It has incredible richness of lighting and texturing. It's also really fast. I find animation a good way to explain your 3D design process, which can otherwise be quite opaque.
And Rhino began life as a 3D plugin for Autocad, so it works well with that.
Graham
i came to realize that you cant get hired in the profession without knowing a 3d program...... which is total bullshit....... you can have 10 great things but the one thing that you cant do is what will hinder yourself from the job........
sort of funny how a person can have experience in both detailing and construction but cant get a fuckn job in the field cause he doesnt know viz/max/etc ......... been there too many times...
good luck
Maya>Maxwell will make you very happy.
i think if you just pick one, like Rhino or maya or others mentioned above, get a project to work on and go for it. Once you learn one, switching to another is fairly easy. The key is understanding 3dmodeling in general at first. I started on FormZ in school. Then swithced to 3dmax, then to Rhino. Now the firm I'm at uses acad and Viz, so I use that. You never know what firm you'll end up with and what platform and software they will use so you need to be somewhat versatile anyways.
its funny how we are talking about Max, and i can almost guarantee that 9/10s of them are bandulu copies
I use Revit for all my 3d modeling, documentation and quick rendering. I use MAX for final rendering. Occasionally i might need an extreme shape that can be easily created with nurbs and then i use Rhino. Rhino imports seamlessly into Revit. http://www.wikihow.com/Create-a-Freeform-Roof-in-Revit
Shape of building = Choice of Software:
""Traditional"" = Autocad
free form = Maya or max
double curved ect. = Rhino
when i mean in its infancy, i mean it's clear that - at least to me - that Rhino's potential is not tapped out, Autocad can only refine what exists, and the same with Max, while Rhino can still go much farther - it's rendering component is just one example.
i use houdini & Maya. form are drawned by specification or writing script. very fast and powerful. is mostly used by hollywood for special effects like at the beginning of the movie.
just want to know any maya/max user after they design their form there, how to make it into working drawings or give dimension to it? transport to autocad?
btw, mental ray is good but a home pc will crash in no time cos it takes up lots of memory especially for buildings.
Learn 3D modelling and rendering in both AutoCAD and 3D studio max/viz. The reason being, MAX and AutoCAD are both autodesk and they translate well with one another... Autocad sucks for 3D but its autocad so at times when you are building a model and working in 2D drafting mode, you can throw up some stuff you want in autocad and then send to Max for final rendering... Or you can do something more free and schematic massing studies quick in max and then throw back to autocad to refine it in 2D section, etc... then maybe throw back to Max... Know both...
Eventually learn Revit. Autocad will "BE Revit" eventually... Its a matter of time before parametric modelling and drafting are packaged as one product... Might take a decade or might be in a couple years, but it'll happen... Basically, despite what people say about Revit's clunky free modelling, I think it's decent... If you know how to model in other software like Autocad or 3D studio, you can pretty much build anything in Revit... But when you learn Revit, take a class...
AutoCAD, 3D Studio, and Revit. They are all autodesk, they are all useful for different things.
Of course, you need to know photoshop to be able to manipulate materials well for any kind of rendering with any software...
I would learn, in this order:
1. AutoCAD 2D (and photoshop)
2. AutoCAD 3D (which, because you already know the environment makes the leap to a 3D modeling simpler)
3. 3D Studio (this part will be the harder leap from autocad... some people love it some hate it... but LEARN it...) The key is: 3D Studio will be fun once you let yourself be more freeform and its intuitive, play with shapes... And then apply "modifiers" to shapes... But once you learn this, you can always just model in Autocad like you already did before and then import to 3D studio to render... Apply materials, set up cameras, lights in 3D studio which is much much easier...
4. REVIT (if you already know both autocad 2D and 3D, and 3D studio, this will be pretty easy to pick up...)
AutoCAD is to Revit, as
Microsoft Word is to Microsoft Excel
Revit, imo, is a great bim modeler,
but not a designing tool
If you know how to use it, then it can be a very powerful design tool. Especially Form Finding it's great, but I always recommend people to use Rhino in the meantime untill they master Revit. You can import .SAT files into Revit that MAX and MAYA can't do, so your model will not be lost in the transition.
Max is the safest, most widely used
FormZ is the fastest to model, imo
If I could only learn one program, I'd opt for Max. If I could learn two I'd go with the FormZ or Rhino to model, Max to render.
Maya, C4D, Lightwave, Modo, etc., are all good programs, but it's not going to help you get a job.
I hope Adesk does kill Maya and offer more versions of Max. One version for big bucks is a rip off, imo. Upgrades cost more than the competition!!
(I haven't even installed my upgrades to 9 because of so many problems)
Sketchup is free... You can download it now and be modelling stuff within a day of playing with it and taking those tutorials...
http://sketchup.google.com/
Rhino is an absolute MUST!!! It is the most capable program that is absolutely mandatory as a way to build/analyze models.
Maya is great for deforming. Dynamics represent an amazingly rich and powerful way of deriving form based on scientific principles of thermodynamics. Time line or frame based replications are powerful.
Max to render. Why learn how to model in there? You can link a model in max to a rhino file and all your rhino layers can be imported making material assignments easy.
AutoCAD to draw. Lines and points are easily exported/imported. DXF's and DWG's are pretty universal.
Now....the next generation is Generative Components. This is the gravy on the cake. AMAZING relationship modeler for component based systems. This program is making waves and will continue to. Think the logic of RhinoScripting with GUI interface. It is still in Beta testing and is very buggy, but the implications on design are already apparent. And it exports well to Rhino or AutoCAD 3d.
In all, there is no one perfect program. You have to know a whole range of programs to getwhat you want. On a recent project it went like this:
-draw curves in Phino
-create a surface and populate the surface with a component in
GC
- export to rhino to create meshes
- export to Pepakura to unfold the meshes
- export to AutoCAD to get lines for a laser cut file
- export to my desk for manual assembly
No rendering needed, or else, insert export to 3ds Max.
Max is great to model in if you have npowers plugins
http://www.npowersoftware.com/main.htm
I learned Rhino in school a few years ago, but is anyone, outside of small faculty-associated boutique firms, using it in the professional world? I don't know any firms that are using its CNC capabilities for building-scale work (a few that are using it for modelmaking).
To be practical (which is usually a bad thing in architecture), learn AutoCAD and Max/Viz. It's the standard. Everyone uses it.
Whoever made the comment to just learn 3D modelling in general regardless of program is right. All programs are in principle the same. It's only a matter of learning a new interface and output capabilities, if you switch.
has someone experience with BLENDER?
http://www.blender.org/features-gallery/features/
first of all i would like to thank all who contributed to this post! the immense response from y'all is very much appreciated! i would have to spend time to browse over all your entries!
i am stating some varied reactions and comments here as my mind is still in a mess, however, i will be following up with some questions later on.
judging from all your comments it seems 3d viz / max is the most suitable (at least for now) to learn.
I already know how to use autocad 2d, microstation 2d, acad 3d, and sketchup, and was thinking bout this jump to know about viz /max. though i dont aim to be an expert renderer i do notice that most firms do look for knowledge in viz and max. i noticed some others look for maya knowledge as well.
about the flexibility with different programs, wouldn't that make you a jack of all trades and a master of none?
As someone mentioned above...there are so many common terms and processes that each 3D program incorporates.
Things like NURBS, Booleans, Polygons, Vertices, etc., etc., are all pretty much the same.
If you learn one really well, and truly understand how things work, then jumping to a new program won't be starting over. It'll take time. of course, but when you understand certain things you can take them with you to a new program.
No one knows where Maya and Max will head to. Basically, there is nothing one can do the other can't. 5 years ago that was different, but not so much anymore. With Adesk owning both, it doesn't seem to make much sense keeping both parallel for too long. My bet is that Maya becomes more effects and character driven (where it got its reputation in Hollywood) and Max goes more towards ArchViz and real time production (where it is solidly entrenched in the gaming and ArchViz world).
Learn Max, learn to render (I'd suggest either Final Render or VRay) and you'll have a great asset in your skillset.
The idea that all 3D programs are similar holds true except for parametric modellers, which represent fundamentally different ways of thinking. I expect we will see parametric and BIM modeling becoming standard practice in the not-so-distant future - designers that can work with these tools will be in great demand. But these are not at all the same as Rhino, Max, SketchUp, etc. Max and Maya are *kinda* parametric, but not to the extent of Generative Components, Digital Project, or SolidWorks.
I would make sure to learn at least one parametric modeler while you are at it. It takes a different mindset and a bit more of a time commitment, but they are amazing tools that far exceed other options in terms of surface and solid modeling.
thank you trace
do you think max has more of an advantage as an exploratory and advanced tool for modelling than viz?
i understand viz is more for architecture but so far i think its more for euclidean and 'commercial' architecture with the basic forms.. somehow i thnk max has scripting which enables it to do stuff like what DRL people do...
thank you flashpan
your advice somehow tells me that there is an advantage in terms of future potential for BIM modelers, just like how autocad (and computers) took the architectural world by storm.
however, i'd really like to become a better designer rather than a better 3d modeller or cad specialist. do you think these programs aid in the acceleration of realizing a design, or do they sometimes get in the way of the actual design process?
- i mean, sometimes we think of an idea but end up thinking of what steps to take /tools to use to create such a form (which is the idea) in the virtual space.
: almost all of my impressions are based on using these on my own (since employers prefer to hire people with cad experience who don't know what they're drawing, versus hiring people who know what they're drawing, but haven't had the chance to work the requisite one year with cad).
2nd caveat: I've used Revit only with tutorials and some of my old drawings alongside. (there are errors in tutorials, btw) I haven't used family editor, but I've edited (sometimes extensively) the prefab elements via properties subdialogs.
big deficit from Landscape pov: none of these 3d programs work well for freeform geometry (landscape). the best modelers (such as Revit) are efficient because they make good 3d assumptions about 2d inputs. So for landscape/grades, elevations numbers (and notes) on a plan are as good.
also, beginning design on paper is still fastest. you need scrawl only what your brain needs to work things out. often this consists of plans on flimsy with a lot of text scribbles, calculations, and a few intricate perspective details (eg, non orthogonal intersection or miscellaneous oddities/freakouts). i can mush a lot of alts, overlaid partial alts, etc. (you get the idea) onto a series of flimsies. all rapidly accessible. most of your brainpower goes to DESIGN, rather than leaked while friggin with the ominpresent holey condom limitations of 2d interface.
One obvious unavoidable design need for good 3d software: (structural!!) intersection of two or more compound curves or solids. I'm not sure how you'd attempt that using "paper" because I'm pretty sure the connection/intersection requires a lot of series calculations with special boundaries (connection method: weld types, etc) Numerically intensive. (matlab???)
revit
compared to boggy acad, Revit's amazing. (besides "smart" 3d assumptions) another of Revit's big advantage: Revit's UI changes to conform to the task being performed, so less cruft gets in your way. The revit way isn't obvious with 1st use, and you're still a slave to the method the software uses (ugh!), but you catch on quick. (unlike acad, which forces you to frig around with it forever, while it stomps on your toes, and twists your sensitive bits. link )
I've noticed that Revit still requires some workarounds, and hopefully those will be fixed.
though adsk had added on some nice stuff to acad, it still seems mostly a *polar DOS program that's been poorly skinned over with win dialogs. and the berzhillions of 'hidden' modes and variables that need to be set to fix some mysteriously boneheaded result; that's not sane. (though I've read that revit's got some of those, too.)
i don't know when there will be something like revit for terrain-type design. but in these dying acad days, I'd rather learn a viable minority software (eg, Vectorworks) in production environment, rather than acad in production.
despite my b1tching, after reading how much hardware Revit needs, i now feel a bit of sympathy for adsk dragging the world along on acad. link i guess PC hardware couldn't handle anything better (acknowledging the usual economic tradeoff: software writing methods vs efficient code)
SketchUp is easy to run, but i don't see the current version producing anything more than basic presentation.
i haven't yet tried any of those other 3d rendering progs (bryce, blender, maya?, max, formz, c4d, etc) But from general design POV, real modeling (dimensions and properties/materials and "accessories") such as Revit's, is worth a lot more because you're really designing something, rather than depicting something (in a very cumbersome manner)
meta - yes!
the npower nurbs and solids makes max a totally different modeler...much more control...email them, they have student prices that they do not advertise which are very reasonable.
Also, all the tools use the history palette as well...so you can constantly change your work at any point in the modeling 'history'...very nice...check out their quicktime tutorials on their site...there are some nice examples.
npower also makes fantastic translators I've used the Rhino to Max one with great results.
metamechanic:
the idea that max will replace maya at autodesk is a very architectural point of view. in maya's market, architecture is just a blip. it is mainly used by the film industry. maya is going to be around for a very long time. and there are plenty of cracked copies around.
aspect:
i've never had mental ray crash on me. i find it stable, fast and powerful.
trace:
formz is the fastest to model? have you tried rhino? i used formz for a year, then swtiched to rhino. it was like going from crawling to walking. rhino's interface is way more intuitive. also it has a lot in common with autocad, so if you know that, you will pick up rhino faster, and vice versa.
graham
My new favorite combo is the following:
1. max (for project integration & pre-rendering)
2. acad (for all the usual stuff)
3. rhino for blobby stuff, as needed, exported as dxf's
4. final render (for rendering)
Works wonders...
There should be laws against sketchup use by architects (I hope firms adopting it to save money find that they have trouble recruiting) and form-z use by anybody (scripters be darned)
ah.. yes, also don't forget arcmap/arcscene for sitework dimensioning and stuff, if you have GIS data available. acad drawings now map easily into arcmap via geocoding. Pretty cool stuff...
laws against sketchup for architects? why?
i'm curious to know:
say after u make all those fantastic shapes in maya, how do u turn into working drawings??
u export as obj to Max? then to autocad??
cjw - for design, I still use FormZ. Max is just too slow to redraw (even with great graphic cards - I've used everything from $500 cards to $3500 cards with little noticeable difference).
graham - nope, never worked with Rhino. I have only heard good things about it. I use so many shortcuts with FMZ (almost all programs, really), so I don't really care much about an interface. It's the speed of going from one tool to another that I care about.
Any program that uses sub-object selections and modeling is going to be really slow for architecture. That's what I love most about FormZ - select Point, drag around all the points, then move and viola! The ALL the windows and frames and details are now 3' taller!
To be honest, I barely model anymore (gots people for that), so I can't say for sure where Max is now. I've heard 9 is much better with OpenGL and wireframes, but I am waiting to install my upgrades for a while (gotta keep compatible, one of the worst things with Max is that you can't down save).
cjw - I stick with Max vs. Viz because there are a few tools taht I need in Max. But for most folks Viz is fine. They are both the 'same' program, Max just has more features (like effects, character studio, etc.), but you can get super results from either.
aspect:
to make maya models usable i export them as igs to rhino, then make plan/section cuts and export as dwg to autocad.
graham
Re FormZ:
I've met people who love it and people who hate it... I think it comes down to whether you are used to its interface or not. I think most people who love it are the ones who started with it.
Form Z has always seemed to me a modeller with the most sensible and simple enough toolset structure and logic... Naturally being able to select by different type of subobject, etc... But I've always hated the clunky interface, tool bars and the awkward way you navigate in a view... Maybe this is a lame reason not to use a software, but I also hate the appearance of the new toolbar icons... All of these icons look similar and the logic of how toolbars are laid out doesnt make any sense...! So the interface generally bugs me... But it has some pretty powerful and robust tools, I'd say it's similar to basic Microstation 3D with the added power of the Max-like subobjects... Everything is a tool, vs. Max where you have to add modifiers, etc.
Never used Form Z enough to actually set up a whole series of personal shortcuts, only ever used it in school so I had to use the default setup on the lab computers... That was my major beef with FormZ, the awkward user interface, etc. vs. Max which has a very intuitive ergonomic key layout, very intuitive and smooth way in which you can navigate within a view, pan with the mouse, etc. But I guess I can see how FormZ might be a good choice if you are able to personalize all of commands into a comfortable shortcut arrangement, or if you were accustomed to its interface...
bRink, I think you are spot on with the interface. Spending so much time in these softwares really makes you attune to a bad one. When you have to think about the interface, and it inhibits work flow - it is bad. FormZ & Microstation/Triforma (for me) are exemplary of this problem. The fact that you have to pick a button to pan and rotate is just archaic.
Rhino, especially the new version 4, is completely smooth and doesn't hinder work flow. It is customizable and as simple or complex as you want it to be. Sketchup has probably nailed it, even though the toolset isn't as vast as some of the others, but still really intuitive. Haven't used viz or max enough to weigh in.
If someone could figure out a way to get feature modeling to be as fluid as some of the others (or apply feature sets to geometry modeled in another software) - I would be sold.
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.