Every day, there are more and more Craigs List posts seeking "artists" for everything from auto graphics to comic books to corporate logo designs. More people are finding themselves in need of some form of illustrative service.
But what they're NOT doing, unfortunately, is realizing how rare someone with these particular talents can be.
To those who are "seeking artists", let me ask you; How many people do you know, personally, with the talent and skill to perform the services you need? A dozen? Five? One? …none?
More than likely, you don't know any. Otherwise, you wouldn't be posting on craigslist to find them.
And this is not really a surprise.
In this country, there are almost twice as many neurosurgeons as there are professional illustrators. There are eleven times as many certified mechanics. There are SEVENTY times as many people in the IT field.
So, given that they are less rare, and therefore less in demand, would it make sense to ask your mechanic to work on your car for free? Would you look him in the eye, with a straight face, and tell him that his compensation would be the ability to have his work shown to others as you drive down the street?
Would you offer a neurosurgeon the "opportunity" to add your name to his resume as payment for removing that pesky tumor? (Maybe you could offer him "a few bucks" for "materials". What a deal!)
Would you be able to seriously even CONSIDER offering your web hosting service the chance to have people see their work, by viewing your website, as their payment for hosting you?
If you answered "yes" to ANY of the above, you're obviously insane. If you answered "no", then kudos to you for living in the real world.
But then tell me… why would you think it is okay to live out the same, delusional, ridiculous fantasy when seeking someone whose abilities are even less in supply than these folks?
Graphic artists, illustrators, painters, etc., are skilled tradesmen. As such, to consider them as, or deal with them as, anything less than professionals fully deserving of your respect is both insulting and a bad reflection on you as a sane, reasonable person. In short, it makes you look like a twit.
A few things you need to know;
1. It is not a "great opportunity" for an artist to have his work seen on your car/'zine/website/bedroom wall, etc. It IS a "great opportunity" for YOU to have their work there.
2. It is not clever to seek a "student" or "beginner" in an attempt to get work for free. It's ignorant and insulting. They may be "students", but that does not mean they don't deserve to be paid for their hard work. You were a "student" once, too. Would you have taken that job at McDonalds with no pay, because you were learning essential job skills for the real world? Yes, your proposition it JUST as stupid.
3. The chance to have their name on something that is going to be seen by other people, whether it's one or one million, is NOT a valid enticement. Neither is the right to add that work to their "portfolio". They get to do those things ANYWAY, after being paid as they should. It's not compensation. It's their right, and it's a given.
4. Stop thinking that you're giving them some great chance to work. Once they skip over your silly ad, as they should, the next ad is usually for someone who lives in the real world, and as such, will pay them. There are far more jobs needing these skills than there are people who possess these skills.
5. Students DO need "experience". But they do NOT need to get it by giving their work away. In fact, this does not even offer them the experience they need. Anyone who will not/can not pay them is obviously the type of person or business they should be ashamed to have on their resume anyway. Do you think professional contractors list the "experience" they got while nailing down a loose step at their grandmother's house when they were seventeen?
If you your company or gig was worth listing as desired experience, it would be able to pay for the services it received. The only experience they will get doing free work for you is a lesson learned in what kinds of scrubs they should not lower themselves to deal with.
6. (This one is FOR the artists out there, please pay attention.) Some will ask you to "submit work for consideration". They may even be posing as some sort of "contest". These are almost always scams. They will take the work submitted by many artists seeking to win the "contest", or be "chosen" for the gig, and find what they like most. They will then usually have someone who works for them, or someone who works incredibly cheap because they have no originality or talent of their own, reproduce that same work, or even just make slight modifications to it, and claim it as their own. You will NOT be paid, you will NOT win the contest. The only people who win, here, are the underhanded folks who run these ads. This is speculative, or "spec", work. It's risky at best, and a complete scam at worst. I urge you to avoid it, completely. For more information on this subject, please visit www.no-spec.com
So to artists/designers/illustrators looking for work, do everyone a favor, ESPECIALLY yourselves, and avoid people who do not intend to pay you. Whether they are "spec" gigs, or just some guy who wants a free mural on his living room walls. They need you. You do NOT need them.
And for those who are looking for someone to do work for free… please wake up and join the real world. The only thing you're accomplishing is to insult those with the skills you need. Get a clue.
makes me feel good about not agreeing to lower my fee for my potential first client 2 years ago...even though i lost the client, i gained a whole lot more.
"They will then usually have someone who works for them, or someone who works incredibly cheap because they have no originality or talent of their own, reproduce that same work, or even just make slight modifications to it, and claim it as their own. You will NOT be paid, you will NOT win the contest."
Exactly -- and Btw. thank's for an insightfull post.
Still if your girfriends friend had just widened the facts just a bit it would have covered the students working free in the studio and the master architect grabbing their credits, it would have covered the fact that when you read this to a person who realy don't care for arts or the fact life of real artists , they will respond with ignorance and most often they enjoy seing the artists being robbed the bread from their mouth.
But there are arguments to be made from this, --- when written ;
""They will then usually have someone who works for them, or someone who works incredibly cheap because they have no originality or talent of their own, reproduce that same work,"
Then this fact also mean that "they" the next time will find it difficult to continue a Delivery, next time they have to rob someone else leaving arts as the concured city with it's people in vain , and you will see "artists" where you wonder how they can manufactor works that one instance owerwhelme you and ensure you the original ore , and the next moment next time the same artists Push works that is obviously a copy of a copy of a copy , then suddenly the same "artists" totaly change direction and newer return to the othervise promising visions. And in architecture that mean that the architect that could have delivered the interiours that would have healed, would newer get the chance to offer that healing , ---- and by this robbing the mechanic, and heard surgant the craftsmen and your girlfriend will newer be offered the true Delivery , as what the artist deliver newer deal with what is robbed and transformed into fame or cheap labor no, the real artist offer the healing the healthy house , the buildings that make people feel good, the painting that you would newer sell, the book that inspired you when you needed it the most.
So the robbery are more serious than what bread are taken from the artists mouth, and sadly this corruption destroy so much more.
------- Guess what I try to say to add this insightfull subject is, that it is true that the real artists are rare ,their Delivery unique and allway's provoking the defination of real arts as how it allway's was --- but when the artist are robbed by criminal minds the true enemy of arts, then remember that with most artists their next work is often "better" , for an artist life is often concouring new lands new insight , but if your new insight as artist is about the how criminal minds work , then the next piece of arts that would othervise been a continuation a refinement , will be replaced with the knowleage about how the arts and academic world rather see the spoiled and social skilled get the credit , ------- and in architecture you will newer see the new architecture while when the master architect ask an employee to screen-grap an impressive creation ,being the struggeling Delivery of a new and hard working artist, and make a lookalike something with the just the same surface attitude without realising that what brought the wonder, the hard and deep work is omited then the continuation and further delivery are broken. --- when the prove of tallent are robbed and the master academics make thivery into the true arts , that's when our world looses the one quality that raises us humans abowe the animals. When being a master architect become the same as being a preditor.
Is this only delusional because of the "need" the percieved client has, in a sense saying that if you need a surgeon you get a surgeon, you need a lawyer you get a lawyer, talk about cost later, because in the end you could be dead or in jail and/or bankrupt?
Just want the response clarified a little bit.
This has interesting comparisons to young architects who are self-starters and want to get out and find commisions whether they are of a spatial or graphical nature. But that is only a small segment of the architectural profession, I assume. Not only this but when architectural companies are offering unpaid internships to students and recent grads it goes beyond the "sole" artist/designer into a larger realm of industry wide abuse and acceptance. This does not only come down to the american economy either, one such place i know of is Germany, especially Berlin where the building economy went through a downturn and the practicing architects are offering "great oppurtunities" just to be within an office, for no pay. This is of greater danger to the architectural community, being jilted by your own kind.
Also the acceptance of international competitions, they are dangerous and money sucking but I cannot see a better way for younger practices to experiment and possibly get a chance to build, unless we want to see the prevalence of soul sucking corporate warehouse structures dotting the landscape we need to have outlets for creativity. The competition industry seems to do a good job at feeding the architectural periodicals and even a few non-built works get published (P/A Awards and many others like them) giving the architects recognition and acceptance into a wider community, which they need to recieve in order to build. Which feeds back into the unpaid worker. Of course this is only one road to travel but it exists and usually gets the most exposure at least here on archinect.
How do we change this and remain experimentally viable in the real world? How do we recieve representation through/for our community, I wonder about the AIA? I cannot comment on them, but they prepare most of the contrracts I see. How do you measure yourself within the wider community of architecture?
Sorry this is so garbled but had to get some of this out.
Did anybody see the job posting on craigslist a couple of weeks ago for a real estate company looking for an architect to build a model for free claiming it might lead to more work. I regret not calling them and taking the job and then delivery a pile of scape the day it was due.
We're artists, so why are we being compared to doctors and mechanics and not, say, directors or musicians?
How much speculative, non-paid work do you think a young aspiring director or musician is willing to do before they are in a position to actually make money in their industry?
By the way, I don't propone getting duped into doing free work for someone who doesn't want to pay for services. If that happens, then you got sucka'd.
Arrogance? To devote time to address an issue of importance to those in your line of work? "An individual attempting to speak on behalf of an entire group of people, when that person has no authority to do so." Are you a time traveler from the past? What a ridiculous thing to point out. I don't even know what sort of world you'd have to live in to take issue with the idea of someone voicing a concern, so I'm going to stick with the idea that you have built a working time machine and have hurtled forward through the ages to our present day Earth, where we have the internet and people share ideas. You are a caveman or maybe some sort of feudal Lord.
Delusional. Here's where I take it easy on your caveman sensibility because I do actually think that the author must have meant "more in demand". It doesn't make their argument shaky, though, only their proofreading. Otherwise, they clearly understand the economics of their industry. But here's where you being from bizzaro world ruined what only looked like a smart response to the author: the author isn't comparing the value of the different professions. Much like the invention of the wheel, it's quite simple: these unrelated businesses ARE actually related. They have the same parents! I Pay You Money is the father, and You Provide a Service/Product is the mother. Such a happy family!
Also, marketing budgets are large, as the value of branding and the packaging of visual information is undeniable. Do a google search for "Google" if you don't believe me.
Jan 28, 07 12:49 am ·
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Bust a cap in these suckas!
So, my girlfriend just showed me this...
Her friend wrote it up in a rant to the "artist community" which applies to Architects as well...
__________________________________________________________________
Every day, there are more and more Craigs List posts seeking "artists" for everything from auto graphics to comic books to corporate logo designs. More people are finding themselves in need of some form of illustrative service.
But what they're NOT doing, unfortunately, is realizing how rare someone with these particular talents can be.
To those who are "seeking artists", let me ask you; How many people do you know, personally, with the talent and skill to perform the services you need? A dozen? Five? One? …none?
More than likely, you don't know any. Otherwise, you wouldn't be posting on craigslist to find them.
And this is not really a surprise.
In this country, there are almost twice as many neurosurgeons as there are professional illustrators. There are eleven times as many certified mechanics. There are SEVENTY times as many people in the IT field.
So, given that they are less rare, and therefore less in demand, would it make sense to ask your mechanic to work on your car for free? Would you look him in the eye, with a straight face, and tell him that his compensation would be the ability to have his work shown to others as you drive down the street?
Would you offer a neurosurgeon the "opportunity" to add your name to his resume as payment for removing that pesky tumor? (Maybe you could offer him "a few bucks" for "materials". What a deal!)
Would you be able to seriously even CONSIDER offering your web hosting service the chance to have people see their work, by viewing your website, as their payment for hosting you?
If you answered "yes" to ANY of the above, you're obviously insane. If you answered "no", then kudos to you for living in the real world.
But then tell me… why would you think it is okay to live out the same, delusional, ridiculous fantasy when seeking someone whose abilities are even less in supply than these folks?
Graphic artists, illustrators, painters, etc., are skilled tradesmen. As such, to consider them as, or deal with them as, anything less than professionals fully deserving of your respect is both insulting and a bad reflection on you as a sane, reasonable person. In short, it makes you look like a twit.
A few things you need to know;
1. It is not a "great opportunity" for an artist to have his work seen on your car/'zine/website/bedroom wall, etc. It IS a "great opportunity" for YOU to have their work there.
2. It is not clever to seek a "student" or "beginner" in an attempt to get work for free. It's ignorant and insulting. They may be "students", but that does not mean they don't deserve to be paid for their hard work. You were a "student" once, too. Would you have taken that job at McDonalds with no pay, because you were learning essential job skills for the real world? Yes, your proposition it JUST as stupid.
3. The chance to have their name on something that is going to be seen by other people, whether it's one or one million, is NOT a valid enticement. Neither is the right to add that work to their "portfolio". They get to do those things ANYWAY, after being paid as they should. It's not compensation. It's their right, and it's a given.
4. Stop thinking that you're giving them some great chance to work. Once they skip over your silly ad, as they should, the next ad is usually for someone who lives in the real world, and as such, will pay them. There are far more jobs needing these skills than there are people who possess these skills.
5. Students DO need "experience". But they do NOT need to get it by giving their work away. In fact, this does not even offer them the experience they need. Anyone who will not/can not pay them is obviously the type of person or business they should be ashamed to have on their resume anyway. Do you think professional contractors list the "experience" they got while nailing down a loose step at their grandmother's house when they were seventeen?
If you your company or gig was worth listing as desired experience, it would be able to pay for the services it received. The only experience they will get doing free work for you is a lesson learned in what kinds of scrubs they should not lower themselves to deal with.
6. (This one is FOR the artists out there, please pay attention.) Some will ask you to "submit work for consideration". They may even be posing as some sort of "contest". These are almost always scams. They will take the work submitted by many artists seeking to win the "contest", or be "chosen" for the gig, and find what they like most. They will then usually have someone who works for them, or someone who works incredibly cheap because they have no originality or talent of their own, reproduce that same work, or even just make slight modifications to it, and claim it as their own. You will NOT be paid, you will NOT win the contest. The only people who win, here, are the underhanded folks who run these ads. This is speculative, or "spec", work. It's risky at best, and a complete scam at worst. I urge you to avoid it, completely. For more information on this subject, please visit www.no-spec.com
So to artists/designers/illustrators looking for work, do everyone a favor, ESPECIALLY yourselves, and avoid people who do not intend to pay you. Whether they are "spec" gigs, or just some guy who wants a free mural on his living room walls. They need you. You do NOT need them.
And for those who are looking for someone to do work for free… please wake up and join the real world. The only thing you're accomplishing is to insult those with the skills you need. Get a clue.
werd
witty unpredictable, talent and natural game!
good post, makes me want to stop being a total whore.
makes me feel good about not agreeing to lower my fee for my potential first client 2 years ago...even though i lost the client, i gained a whole lot more.
"They will then usually have someone who works for them, or someone who works incredibly cheap because they have no originality or talent of their own, reproduce that same work, or even just make slight modifications to it, and claim it as their own. You will NOT be paid, you will NOT win the contest."
Exactly -- and Btw. thank's for an insightfull post.
Still if your girfriends friend had just widened the facts just a bit it would have covered the students working free in the studio and the master architect grabbing their credits, it would have covered the fact that when you read this to a person who realy don't care for arts or the fact life of real artists , they will respond with ignorance and most often they enjoy seing the artists being robbed the bread from their mouth.
But there are arguments to be made from this, --- when written ;
""They will then usually have someone who works for them, or someone who works incredibly cheap because they have no originality or talent of their own, reproduce that same work,"
Then this fact also mean that "they" the next time will find it difficult to continue a Delivery, next time they have to rob someone else leaving arts as the concured city with it's people in vain , and you will see "artists" where you wonder how they can manufactor works that one instance owerwhelme you and ensure you the original ore , and the next moment next time the same artists Push works that is obviously a copy of a copy of a copy , then suddenly the same "artists" totaly change direction and newer return to the othervise promising visions. And in architecture that mean that the architect that could have delivered the interiours that would have healed, would newer get the chance to offer that healing , ---- and by this robbing the mechanic, and heard surgant the craftsmen and your girlfriend will newer be offered the true Delivery , as what the artist deliver newer deal with what is robbed and transformed into fame or cheap labor no, the real artist offer the healing the healthy house , the buildings that make people feel good, the painting that you would newer sell, the book that inspired you when you needed it the most.
So the robbery are more serious than what bread are taken from the artists mouth, and sadly this corruption destroy so much more.
------- Guess what I try to say to add this insightfull subject is, that it is true that the real artists are rare ,their Delivery unique and allway's provoking the defination of real arts as how it allway's was --- but when the artist are robbed by criminal minds the true enemy of arts, then remember that with most artists their next work is often "better" , for an artist life is often concouring new lands new insight , but if your new insight as artist is about the how criminal minds work , then the next piece of arts that would othervise been a continuation a refinement , will be replaced with the knowleage about how the arts and academic world rather see the spoiled and social skilled get the credit , ------- and in architecture you will newer see the new architecture while when the master architect ask an employee to screen-grap an impressive creation ,being the struggeling Delivery of a new and hard working artist, and make a lookalike something with the just the same surface attitude without realising that what brought the wonder, the hard and deep work is omited then the continuation and further delivery are broken. --- when the prove of tallent are robbed and the master academics make thivery into the true arts , that's when our world looses the one quality that raises us humans abowe the animals. When being a master architect become the same as being a preditor.
that was so well written and satisfying. ahhhhhhh
If you are looking for a perspective do what the man said ,visit that site;
http://www.no-spec.com/
i am going to have that tattooed backwards on my chest so i can read it every morning after i get out of the shower....
just put it on the mirror....der
J,
Is this only delusional because of the "need" the percieved client has, in a sense saying that if you need a surgeon you get a surgeon, you need a lawyer you get a lawyer, talk about cost later, because in the end you could be dead or in jail and/or bankrupt?
Just want the response clarified a little bit.
This has interesting comparisons to young architects who are self-starters and want to get out and find commisions whether they are of a spatial or graphical nature. But that is only a small segment of the architectural profession, I assume. Not only this but when architectural companies are offering unpaid internships to students and recent grads it goes beyond the "sole" artist/designer into a larger realm of industry wide abuse and acceptance. This does not only come down to the american economy either, one such place i know of is Germany, especially Berlin where the building economy went through a downturn and the practicing architects are offering "great oppurtunities" just to be within an office, for no pay. This is of greater danger to the architectural community, being jilted by your own kind.
Also the acceptance of international competitions, they are dangerous and money sucking but I cannot see a better way for younger practices to experiment and possibly get a chance to build, unless we want to see the prevalence of soul sucking corporate warehouse structures dotting the landscape we need to have outlets for creativity. The competition industry seems to do a good job at feeding the architectural periodicals and even a few non-built works get published (P/A Awards and many others like them) giving the architects recognition and acceptance into a wider community, which they need to recieve in order to build. Which feeds back into the unpaid worker. Of course this is only one road to travel but it exists and usually gets the most exposure at least here on archinect.
How do we change this and remain experimentally viable in the real world? How do we recieve representation through/for our community, I wonder about the AIA? I cannot comment on them, but they prepare most of the contrracts I see. How do you measure yourself within the wider community of architecture?
Sorry this is so garbled but had to get some of this out.
Did anybody see the job posting on craigslist a couple of weeks ago for a real estate company looking for an architect to build a model for free claiming it might lead to more work. I regret not calling them and taking the job and then delivery a pile of scape the day it was due.
you get what you pay for
i have a friend that had this little story
if you go to the store and you want milk and bread but you only have enough for the milk, do you think the store will give you the bread?
Well put j.
We're artists, so why are we being compared to doctors and mechanics and not, say, directors or musicians?
How much speculative, non-paid work do you think a young aspiring director or musician is willing to do before they are in a position to actually make money in their industry?
By the way, I don't propone getting duped into doing free work for someone who doesn't want to pay for services. If that happens, then you got sucka'd.
To expect to be paid for services?
Arrogance? To devote time to address an issue of importance to those in your line of work? "An individual attempting to speak on behalf of an entire group of people, when that person has no authority to do so." Are you a time traveler from the past? What a ridiculous thing to point out. I don't even know what sort of world you'd have to live in to take issue with the idea of someone voicing a concern, so I'm going to stick with the idea that you have built a working time machine and have hurtled forward through the ages to our present day Earth, where we have the internet and people share ideas. You are a caveman or maybe some sort of feudal Lord.
Delusional. Here's where I take it easy on your caveman sensibility because I do actually think that the author must have meant "more in demand". It doesn't make their argument shaky, though, only their proofreading. Otherwise, they clearly understand the economics of their industry. But here's where you being from bizzaro world ruined what only looked like a smart response to the author: the author isn't comparing the value of the different professions. Much like the invention of the wheel, it's quite simple: these unrelated businesses ARE actually related. They have the same parents! I Pay You Money is the father, and You Provide a Service/Product is the mother. Such a happy family!
Also, marketing budgets are large, as the value of branding and the packaging of visual information is undeniable. Do a google search for "Google" if you don't believe me.
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