I am currently a student taking a course on construction management and administration and basically what we talk about in the class touches on everything related in the field of architecture other than the design of a building (everthing not normally taught in archtiecture school.) I have been reading the popular discussions quite a bit in the last six months and a typical theme has been how little an architect makes. My professor in this class has eluded to the fact that an archtiect can make very comfortable wages and she even goes to make figures to us through the business end of architecture (bugets, cost, and margin of profit.)
1) As an informed person in the profession, if I were to prove to an employer my value in the workplace as far as my labor, can that have an effect on my wages, especially since I think that I may be an asset to a particular firm? It seems as though the business of architecture is kept on low profile such that many people have no conception of what kind of an asset they are to a firm so labor costs are kept low.
2) What if I get that kind of bargaining power. Does that ever work for anyone. People that employ others, would you consider this if you knew that an employee was an asset and was doing well at keeping things afloat?
3) I know that I am 22 years old and in college still, and making about 10.00 an hour, but if I were to prove to them that I knew what I did to make them(my bosses) money would you think that I could negotiate a raise?
you're competing with others to GET a job, so you'll most likely be paid (initially) what anyone else would be paid for the same position.
once you have a job, the responsibility to prove your value is yours alone.
keep in mind that large offices often have discrete pay levels, for various reasons, not the least of which is to allow them to budget labor costs easily.
if you are interrested in the construction management side of things, look into working for a developer or construction company. Depending on the type of office you work for (one where making $$$ is the bottom line vs. an indpendenlty wealthy kid designing buildings for fun, for example) you will be valued differently
The time when you are able to state your value to a firm is when you graduate, and get to point out that you have x amount of experience, that you've taken classes in management, etc. instead of just design, and then throughout your tenure at a full-time job. An intern (in architecture) is only worth so much because of the lack of continuity involved, even if they are an unusually highly skilled intern.
Yes, you can greatly increase your salary by focusing on the management/construction/admin side of things instead of pushing for design opportunities. My office has one principal and a couple of associates who practically do nothing but this stuff, and they are compensated well for it. It's your choice whether you'll be happy forsaking design (which is what attracted most of us to architecture) for this sort of a job.
this is going to sound very rude, but i've recently come to the conclusion that nearly everybody under the age of twenty-five is a complete fucking moron. you should probably just be thankful that you're even getting $10 hour.
thank you guys for the response. I was feeling very repulsive when I started this discussion. I really need to realize my place in the profession at this time in my life, and you guys have set me back to where I need to be. Thank you for that. I appreciate it and I think that I need to reconsider my repulsions and think them through before getting on this thing and talking. I should not get myself into trouble. After all this is what I should expect at this age with the kind of experiece that I have. I should aways be grateful that I am getting some very good experience every day that I am working. The people that I work with trust that I know generally how to put a building together and that I have some competence to get the job done the way that it needs to. I also had a co-worker tell me that he wanted me to find people at the school that I to do competitions, but I was not to do competitions. My value was in the "production work" I really should feel good about what I am doing right now since I dont have any substantial bills to pay yet and I am still in college. I should worry about money after colllege. So if you think that I am a but repulsive, please let me apologize to you its just that it seems easier to let out my steam by typing all of these things. Sorry I do feel differently now than I did this morning (or by now yesterday morning) So, again, thank you for finding my place.
justinallanolson: It's good to question things you are learning in school. Your original post demonstrates that you are an active thinker and are trying to apply your coursework to your outlook on the profession. (This is far better than memorizing the book definitions from The Architect's Handbook of Professional Practice.)
The title of this post is more intriguing than the actual post, in my opinion. When I think of the "business end of architecture," things like firm management, marketing, project staffing, and overall profitability come to mind. To me, "construction administration" is one component in the wholistic design/project deliver process, and I do not directly connect it with the "business end of architecture." Yes, architects can burn a lot of fee during the construction administration phase, but that's a topic for another thread.
However, your post did not really address firm management or construction administration/observation. In a way, I wish it did. The responses that you received from others above generally answered your questions and killed the thread (with good reason, too).
Sure a Construction Management professor will talk about how much $$$ architects make. People on the construction side always talk about how much the architect makes, how the architect is screwing them over, etc. I've been in enough job trailers to pick that one up. Would venture a guess that the average general contractor PM earns more than the average architect PM, but that's just my guess.
It wasn't that long ago that I too was 22 years old and starting to send out resumes for my first real job after that BArch degree. After interning a few summers I too thought I knew the profession pretty good and could use that to negotiate higher salary.
Very quickly I learned that knowing my way around AutoCAD and having some experience answering RFI's, etc., didn't mean shit. Just remember that no matter how much you know, there's someone competing with you that has more experience, a better portfolio, more CM classes and so on. The key is getting that first job and building off that experience.
And go easy Puddles...our friend probably isn't an enlightened resident of the central coast.
There are just a couple of snags to think about. Construction administration is only one aspect of architecture - knowing about this is no guarantee that will make the bosses money. CA is simply servicing the construction contract. There are other things at stake here: how the firm runs, contract amounts, salaries.
Architecture is a profession that is built on years of experience - unlike some careers no one skyrockets to the top by just applying what they learned in school. Therefore if you were to bargain for a higher salary based on school, without experience to back it up, I doubt you'd be very successful. You've assumed that no one knows about CA. This may be true to those in school, but not at firms. The places I've worked for station their senior guys on construction services for a good reason - they know the technology behind a building, are familiar with construction scheduling and staging and therefore can evaluate whatever comes their way. These are things they learned by experience.
Because you've learned about CA you're expanding your scope, and it may make you more appealing to be hired over the next guy if you know what happens beyond the CD stage. (This may not mean you won't be hired to work on CAD drawings for the first little while though). However please don't mistake the theoretical teachings amounting to experience.
Regarding your salary, please don't walk away from all that's written on this post thinking you should be grateful for $10/hr. Evaluate it on your locale, your skills, your experience and achievements at previous places of employment - you be the judge. Too many people are bullied into thinking their skills are worthless and therefore settle for piddle while working their fingers to the bone.
You're aiming high - which is good, just understand the profession is more like a ladder in terms of skill set. No one goes from being part-time CAD piddler one day to Lead Project Designer the next.... unless your name is Brad Pitt.
In my experience, there's a tremendous amout of decision making going on during CA that actually does have a lot to do with the design of the building ... embrace that phase ... it will make you a better architect.
Jan 29, 07 10:02 am ·
·
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.
business end of architecture. (construction administration)
I am currently a student taking a course on construction management and administration and basically what we talk about in the class touches on everything related in the field of architecture other than the design of a building (everthing not normally taught in archtiecture school.) I have been reading the popular discussions quite a bit in the last six months and a typical theme has been how little an architect makes. My professor in this class has eluded to the fact that an archtiect can make very comfortable wages and she even goes to make figures to us through the business end of architecture (bugets, cost, and margin of profit.)
1) As an informed person in the profession, if I were to prove to an employer my value in the workplace as far as my labor, can that have an effect on my wages, especially since I think that I may be an asset to a particular firm? It seems as though the business of architecture is kept on low profile such that many people have no conception of what kind of an asset they are to a firm so labor costs are kept low.
2) What if I get that kind of bargaining power. Does that ever work for anyone. People that employ others, would you consider this if you knew that an employee was an asset and was doing well at keeping things afloat?
3) I know that I am 22 years old and in college still, and making about 10.00 an hour, but if I were to prove to them that I knew what I did to make them(my bosses) money would you think that I could negotiate a raise?
you're competing with others to GET a job, so you'll most likely be paid (initially) what anyone else would be paid for the same position.
once you have a job, the responsibility to prove your value is yours alone.
keep in mind that large offices often have discrete pay levels, for various reasons, not the least of which is to allow them to budget labor costs easily.
if you are interrested in the construction management side of things, look into working for a developer or construction company. Depending on the type of office you work for (one where making $$$ is the bottom line vs. an indpendenlty wealthy kid designing buildings for fun, for example) you will be valued differently
The time when you are able to state your value to a firm is when you graduate, and get to point out that you have x amount of experience, that you've taken classes in management, etc. instead of just design, and then throughout your tenure at a full-time job. An intern (in architecture) is only worth so much because of the lack of continuity involved, even if they are an unusually highly skilled intern.
Yes, you can greatly increase your salary by focusing on the management/construction/admin side of things instead of pushing for design opportunities. My office has one principal and a couple of associates who practically do nothing but this stuff, and they are compensated well for it. It's your choice whether you'll be happy forsaking design (which is what attracted most of us to architecture) for this sort of a job.
join csi and i ain't talking about the crime show...
this is going to sound very rude, but i've recently come to the conclusion that nearly everybody under the age of twenty-five is a complete fucking moron. you should probably just be thankful that you're even getting $10 hour.
ouch. guess he won't be back anytime soon.
"but i've recently come to the conclusion "
so you just turned 26?
thank you guys for the response. I was feeling very repulsive when I started this discussion. I really need to realize my place in the profession at this time in my life, and you guys have set me back to where I need to be. Thank you for that. I appreciate it and I think that I need to reconsider my repulsions and think them through before getting on this thing and talking. I should not get myself into trouble. After all this is what I should expect at this age with the kind of experiece that I have. I should aways be grateful that I am getting some very good experience every day that I am working. The people that I work with trust that I know generally how to put a building together and that I have some competence to get the job done the way that it needs to. I also had a co-worker tell me that he wanted me to find people at the school that I to do competitions, but I was not to do competitions. My value was in the "production work" I really should feel good about what I am doing right now since I dont have any substantial bills to pay yet and I am still in college. I should worry about money after colllege. So if you think that I am a but repulsive, please let me apologize to you its just that it seems easier to let out my steam by typing all of these things. Sorry I do feel differently now than I did this morning (or by now yesterday morning) So, again, thank you for finding my place.
that's how you learn...you'll go far justiinallanolson
justinallanolson: It's good to question things you are learning in school. Your original post demonstrates that you are an active thinker and are trying to apply your coursework to your outlook on the profession. (This is far better than memorizing the book definitions from The Architect's Handbook of Professional Practice.)
The title of this post is more intriguing than the actual post, in my opinion. When I think of the "business end of architecture," things like firm management, marketing, project staffing, and overall profitability come to mind. To me, "construction administration" is one component in the wholistic design/project deliver process, and I do not directly connect it with the "business end of architecture." Yes, architects can burn a lot of fee during the construction administration phase, but that's a topic for another thread.
However, your post did not really address firm management or construction administration/observation. In a way, I wish it did. The responses that you received from others above generally answered your questions and killed the thread (with good reason, too).
Sure a Construction Management professor will talk about how much $$$ architects make. People on the construction side always talk about how much the architect makes, how the architect is screwing them over, etc. I've been in enough job trailers to pick that one up. Would venture a guess that the average general contractor PM earns more than the average architect PM, but that's just my guess.
It wasn't that long ago that I too was 22 years old and starting to send out resumes for my first real job after that BArch degree. After interning a few summers I too thought I knew the profession pretty good and could use that to negotiate higher salary.
Very quickly I learned that knowing my way around AutoCAD and having some experience answering RFI's, etc., didn't mean shit. Just remember that no matter how much you know, there's someone competing with you that has more experience, a better portfolio, more CM classes and so on. The key is getting that first job and building off that experience.
And go easy Puddles...our friend probably isn't an enlightened resident of the central coast.
There are just a couple of snags to think about. Construction administration is only one aspect of architecture - knowing about this is no guarantee that will make the bosses money. CA is simply servicing the construction contract. There are other things at stake here: how the firm runs, contract amounts, salaries.
Architecture is a profession that is built on years of experience - unlike some careers no one skyrockets to the top by just applying what they learned in school. Therefore if you were to bargain for a higher salary based on school, without experience to back it up, I doubt you'd be very successful. You've assumed that no one knows about CA. This may be true to those in school, but not at firms. The places I've worked for station their senior guys on construction services for a good reason - they know the technology behind a building, are familiar with construction scheduling and staging and therefore can evaluate whatever comes their way. These are things they learned by experience.
Because you've learned about CA you're expanding your scope, and it may make you more appealing to be hired over the next guy if you know what happens beyond the CD stage. (This may not mean you won't be hired to work on CAD drawings for the first little while though). However please don't mistake the theoretical teachings amounting to experience.
Regarding your salary, please don't walk away from all that's written on this post thinking you should be grateful for $10/hr. Evaluate it on your locale, your skills, your experience and achievements at previous places of employment - you be the judge. Too many people are bullied into thinking their skills are worthless and therefore settle for piddle while working their fingers to the bone.
You're aiming high - which is good, just understand the profession is more like a ladder in terms of skill set. No one goes from being part-time CAD piddler one day to Lead Project Designer the next.... unless your name is Brad Pitt.
CA is NOT "the business end of architecture"
In my experience, there's a tremendous amout of decision making going on during CA that actually does have a lot to do with the design of the building ... embrace that phase ... it will make you a better architect.
Block this user
Are you sure you want to block this user and hide all related comments throughout the site?
Archinect
This is your first comment on Archinect. Your comment will be visible once approved.