so the time is approaching for me to start applying for an actual job. i graduate in may and am quite scared of the real world. i have had an internship(s) for years, but still, this is real.
i have worked for firms ranging from 4 to around 18 in office. i think i may want to go corporate for a while before grad school.
in atlanta, where i am currently, there is HOK, gensler, TVS, heary int., and i can't think of anyone else.
so, should i go corporate to test the waters? if so, Which One?
(i suppose it will also depend on who ever offers me a position)
I say yay to having at least one corporate job. Why? They have internship programs in place, will support you through IDP and exams, have great library resources and a variety of project types to try out.
corporate is a crazy world. i currently work in a nice corporate bubble where we sit in cubes, wear business clothes daily, and sport our company logo on every single type of business paraphernalia ranging from golf tees to umbrellas.
i joke about it and call myself a 'sell out' all the time but i actually enjoy it. my firm has a strong sense of community, a decent design mentality, and a place that is open to a challenge.
although my list of pros and cons can go on forever, i'll hit favorites for each:
pros - exposure to different types of projects at different scales
cons - you have to go through bureaucratic bullshit to stop the firm from using styrofoam coffee cups
bucku, take a look at Perkins + Will, Lord Aeck & Sargent, also can consider Cooper Carry, Smallwood, or Niles Bolton. I have worked (am currently working) for two of these firms during undergrad and currently while in grad school. Let me know if you want to hear more via email, I may be able to set you up with an interview
well, corportate is a good way to make money, have job security, and gain experience on big projects.
watch out though, i hear that the elite schools and the cutting edge little avante-garde firms will discriminate against you if they see something boring/corportate on your resume. like, it's a total black list or nazi yellow star or whatever you want to call it.
i don't know anything about the firms in atlanta but i know that in general there are a lot of good firms out there that are borderline corportate/borderline high design - big firms with big projects and a business mentality but who are also respected for their high design, their very intellecutal principles and their avante garde roots. i'm thinking like machado/silvetti, gwathmey/siegel, um i could probably think of more...
If you want corporate, Gensler was a great experience as far as looking out for the employee. However I'm not a corporate guy. But I'd agree with testing it out before forming an opinion. You'll never know until you try.
i have a friend @ tvs. he loves it.
i took a corporate gig when i quit one job without having another lined up. it wasn't fun. it's not for everyone.
then again, if you like overhearing discussions about prada and gucci, gensler might be a great choice.
I'd say go for it. Some corporate firms are better than others, but overall I think they get a bad rep on Archinect since so many here own their own firms or aspire to that.
I'm at a corporate firm that is very laid back and doesn't forget their roots of starting small with a single client. Going off that I'd suggest looking for a firm that made it big working their way up in Atlanta. Not a Gensler or HOK that just moved in by buying a small firm or just using their sheer size to gain a local foothold.
thanks folks. what worries me most about the corporate line is what some of you have mentioned... design. i hate some firms that are all about production. i get the feeling by alot of the atlanta firms that that is what they are about. their designs are nothing special, if anything they look like a developer's bullsh**.
i'm not too worried about money. its nice of course, but i have an option to work for a better firm/less pay kind of situation.
has anyone else heard anything about what robust84 said about getting discriminated against from grad schools/other firms for working corporate?
oh, and i plan on going to grad school fall08. do you think that this would interfere or change the scenario with a corporate firm/boutique?
I'm a corporate cog. It's not so bad. And it's really nice to get paid on time and not have to use my own computer. Such was not the case in previous gigs.
Never heard of working at a large firm being a reason for a grad school rejection. I think at most a grad schools would worry you were stuck in a cube doing stair sections year after year. From my experience this is a common misconception of corporate firms and haven't heard of any co-workers having trouble going back to grad school.
Don't worry about design too much. My experience of the bigger firms is they have a wide variety of clients providing more exposure and name recognition in turn pulling in the higher profile high design projects. We've worked on published projects like art museums and concert halls, but also done mundane corporate office projects.
I'd just caution you to look for the opportunity to gain experience over the opportunity to design. There is so much to the profession, just starting out you'll need a good foundation of all aspects.
I'll second what's been said about Perkins+Will and Gensler.
P+W does a lot of very nice design work around the world, and when I was there as an intern in the late 90's, they had a great corporate culture. My only caution would be is that for every high-profile Ralph Johnson or David Hansen project, there's a lot of smaller bread-and-butter corporate, healthcare, and education projects that may not be so glamorous. I would assume that's typical for any large firm, though... Not every project you do will end up on the cover of Architectural Record, but you can be confident that every project should at least be well thought-out and competently designed.
Regarding Gensler, I've met a number of Gensler people at various events in Chicago, and they all seemed very happy with working there. Their design work may not be as eye-catching as the stuff Ralph Johnson does for P+W, but they still do some very solid projects.
Another thing to keep in mind is that firms such as Perkins+Will and Gensler are often selected as the architects of record for high-profile starchitect projects. For example, P+W is the architect of record for Calatrava's new 2000-foot condo tower in Chicago, and I remember Zaha Hadid taking a tour of P+W's offices when her firm was submitting their competition entry for the IIT student center. So there's always the possibility you could gain valuable experience working on cutting-edge projects, even if you're not working for the starchitects themselves.
Send resumes to all and interview all. Its the only way to know. Every office is different and every office changes from year to year. Ask what project you will be working on and that may have a large impact on where you want to go.
I agree that Portman's buildings are horrible from an urban design point of view (not to mention crappily detailed). I don't see an impressive atrium space and good urban design as necessarily being mutually-exclusive ideas; it's just a shame that his buildings never took advantage of that opportunity.
corporate you mean to be a corporate sell out??? not to do passionate architecture???to have to tuck in my shirt and maybe buy an iron??? socks? what are socks? can't wear my plugs or pierced face??? shaving? goddamn sellouts!!!
j is either being a smartass (in which case, it's pretty funny) or he's providing evidence that my negative stereotypes of suv-drivers true, e.g., inconsiderate, disrespectful of others' life choices, selfish, and self-congratulatory.
is good design = cool design or is good design something which enhances the built environment for everyone, not just the client, shareholders, etc? some corporate firms will answer this question responsibly, some will not. some boutique firms will answer this question responsibly, some will not. the corporate or not question is more about personal choice regarding your work environment. good work can happen in either situation.
would working corporate right out of school allow for a better opportunity for a higher level job at that firm later in your carreer after experience at a few diff firms? kind of like getting your foot in the door. also i hear alot about how these corporate firms pay under the avg for salaries, what are we talking about for entry level intern positions? 20's K, 30's K, 40's K??
you mean at a corporate job? last year i had friends that went corporate after graduation. they all made relatively the same, which was in the range of 40-45k. now im not too positive of the market right now in atl, though it doesnt appear to have dwindled, so i imagin it is the same +/-.
boutique is definitely less than that. by how much? not sure.
i have been interested in the longer term affects/effects of working corporate. i dont want to be "blackballed"-as stated earlier- for working for someone who isnt so respected at a future grad school, so if i can be underpaid and overworked at a higher profile arch firm/more design competent, then i just may take riding transit over buying that new 4runner.
ive read that boston, for corporate, is significantly less compensated than a city like Atl (like -10k), is there truth in this? it also brings up a question on priority of location: using the boston/atl diff for example, if you desired to work in boston that also has a firm in Atl and u you took the Atl job based on higher pay, what would be the chances of a transfer of location (within the same firm) and staying at the Atl pay scale (ofcourse after a duration of atleast 1yr)? any opinions
this is crazy. and why the hell are you all wearing ties? do you really interact with clients that often during the week/day that you need to look pristine? that sux. i like my jeans, driving loafers, and reindeer boxers.
corporate or not.
so the time is approaching for me to start applying for an actual job. i graduate in may and am quite scared of the real world. i have had an internship(s) for years, but still, this is real.
i have worked for firms ranging from 4 to around 18 in office. i think i may want to go corporate for a while before grad school.
in atlanta, where i am currently, there is HOK, gensler, TVS, heary int., and i can't think of anyone else.
so, should i go corporate to test the waters? if so, Which One?
(i suppose it will also depend on who ever offers me a position)
b
I say yay to having at least one corporate job. Why? They have internship programs in place, will support you through IDP and exams, have great library resources and a variety of project types to try out.
corporate is a crazy world. i currently work in a nice corporate bubble where we sit in cubes, wear business clothes daily, and sport our company logo on every single type of business paraphernalia ranging from golf tees to umbrellas.
i joke about it and call myself a 'sell out' all the time but i actually enjoy it. my firm has a strong sense of community, a decent design mentality, and a place that is open to a challenge.
although my list of pros and cons can go on forever, i'll hit favorites for each:
pros - exposure to different types of projects at different scales
cons - you have to go through bureaucratic bullshit to stop the firm from using styrofoam coffee cups
bucku, take a look at Perkins + Will, Lord Aeck & Sargent, also can consider Cooper Carry, Smallwood, or Niles Bolton. I have worked (am currently working) for two of these firms during undergrad and currently while in grad school. Let me know if you want to hear more via email, I may be able to set you up with an interview
bucky,
well, corportate is a good way to make money, have job security, and gain experience on big projects.
watch out though, i hear that the elite schools and the cutting edge little avante-garde firms will discriminate against you if they see something boring/corportate on your resume. like, it's a total black list or nazi yellow star or whatever you want to call it.
i don't know anything about the firms in atlanta but i know that in general there are a lot of good firms out there that are borderline corportate/borderline high design - big firms with big projects and a business mentality but who are also respected for their high design, their very intellecutal principles and their avante garde roots. i'm thinking like machado/silvetti, gwathmey/siegel, um i could probably think of more...
If you want corporate, Gensler was a great experience as far as looking out for the employee. However I'm not a corporate guy. But I'd agree with testing it out before forming an opinion. You'll never know until you try.
i have a friend @ tvs. he loves it.
i took a corporate gig when i quit one job without having another lined up. it wasn't fun. it's not for everyone.
then again, if you like overhearing discussions about prada and gucci, gensler might be a great choice.
I'd say go for it. Some corporate firms are better than others, but overall I think they get a bad rep on Archinect since so many here own their own firms or aspire to that.
I'm at a corporate firm that is very laid back and doesn't forget their roots of starting small with a single client. Going off that I'd suggest looking for a firm that made it big working their way up in Atlanta. Not a Gensler or HOK that just moved in by buying a small firm or just using their sheer size to gain a local foothold.
thanks folks. what worries me most about the corporate line is what some of you have mentioned... design. i hate some firms that are all about production. i get the feeling by alot of the atlanta firms that that is what they are about. their designs are nothing special, if anything they look like a developer's bullsh**.
i'm not too worried about money. its nice of course, but i have an option to work for a better firm/less pay kind of situation.
has anyone else heard anything about what robust84 said about getting discriminated against from grad schools/other firms for working corporate?
oh, and i plan on going to grad school fall08. do you think that this would interfere or change the scenario with a corporate firm/boutique?
I'm a corporate cog. It's not so bad. And it's really nice to get paid on time and not have to use my own computer. Such was not the case in previous gigs.
Never heard of working at a large firm being a reason for a grad school rejection. I think at most a grad schools would worry you were stuck in a cube doing stair sections year after year. From my experience this is a common misconception of corporate firms and haven't heard of any co-workers having trouble going back to grad school.
Don't worry about design too much. My experience of the bigger firms is they have a wide variety of clients providing more exposure and name recognition in turn pulling in the higher profile high design projects. We've worked on published projects like art museums and concert halls, but also done mundane corporate office projects.
I'd just caution you to look for the opportunity to gain experience over the opportunity to design. There is so much to the profession, just starting out you'll need a good foundation of all aspects.
I'll second what's been said about Perkins+Will and Gensler.
P+W does a lot of very nice design work around the world, and when I was there as an intern in the late 90's, they had a great corporate culture. My only caution would be is that for every high-profile Ralph Johnson or David Hansen project, there's a lot of smaller bread-and-butter corporate, healthcare, and education projects that may not be so glamorous. I would assume that's typical for any large firm, though... Not every project you do will end up on the cover of Architectural Record, but you can be confident that every project should at least be well thought-out and competently designed.
Regarding Gensler, I've met a number of Gensler people at various events in Chicago, and they all seemed very happy with working there. Their design work may not be as eye-catching as the stuff Ralph Johnson does for P+W, but they still do some very solid projects.
Another thing to keep in mind is that firms such as Perkins+Will and Gensler are often selected as the architects of record for high-profile starchitect projects. For example, P+W is the architect of record for Calatrava's new 2000-foot condo tower in Chicago, and I remember Zaha Hadid taking a tour of P+W's offices when her firm was submitting their competition entry for the IIT student center. So there's always the possibility you could gain valuable experience working on cutting-edge projects, even if you're not working for the starchitects themselves.
Send resumes to all and interview all. Its the only way to know. Every office is different and every office changes from year to year. Ask what project you will be working on and that may have a large impact on where you want to go.
What type of stuff has Portman been doing lately? Seems like he's been completely off the radar screen since the 80's.
I have to admit, I absolutely love his huge atrium spaces and glass elevators... Call it one of my guilty architectural pleasures.
i forget he is in atlanta. how large is his firm?
LIG, everyone in atlanta hates his atriums so its funny you like them. people blame the lack of pedestrian activity on many of his buildings.
still, may be cool to work for.
KPF... they always fed me well
I agree that Portman's buildings are horrible from an urban design point of view (not to mention crappily detailed). I don't see an impressive atrium space and good urban design as necessarily being mutually-exclusive ideas; it's just a shame that his buildings never took advantage of that opportunity.
LIG
Portman rocks...
what do you guys think of OMA as corporate?...thanks.
corporate you mean to be a corporate sell out??? not to do passionate architecture???to have to tuck in my shirt and maybe buy an iron??? socks? what are socks? can't wear my plugs or pierced face??? shaving? goddamn sellouts!!!
not
are u serious vado retro and bothands?? have u worked there or heard from people? are they really that bad?
Corporates are great,
friday is our casual dressing day thats when we get to open our shirt cuff buttons.
j is either being a smartass (in which case, it's pretty funny) or he's providing evidence that my negative stereotypes of suv-drivers true, e.g., inconsiderate, disrespectful of others' life choices, selfish, and self-congratulatory.
is good design = cool design or is good design something which enhances the built environment for everyone, not just the client, shareholders, etc? some corporate firms will answer this question responsibly, some will not. some boutique firms will answer this question responsibly, some will not. the corporate or not question is more about personal choice regarding your work environment. good work can happen in either situation.
would working corporate right out of school allow for a better opportunity for a higher level job at that firm later in your carreer after experience at a few diff firms? kind of like getting your foot in the door. also i hear alot about how these corporate firms pay under the avg for salaries, what are we talking about for entry level intern positions? 20's K, 30's K, 40's K??
you mean at a corporate job? last year i had friends that went corporate after graduation. they all made relatively the same, which was in the range of 40-45k. now im not too positive of the market right now in atl, though it doesnt appear to have dwindled, so i imagin it is the same +/-.
boutique is definitely less than that. by how much? not sure.
i have been interested in the longer term affects/effects of working corporate. i dont want to be "blackballed"-as stated earlier- for working for someone who isnt so respected at a future grad school, so if i can be underpaid and overworked at a higher profile arch firm/more design competent, then i just may take riding transit over buying that new 4runner.
ive read that boston, for corporate, is significantly less compensated than a city like Atl (like -10k), is there truth in this? it also brings up a question on priority of location: using the boston/atl diff for example, if you desired to work in boston that also has a firm in Atl and u you took the Atl job based on higher pay, what would be the chances of a transfer of location (within the same firm) and staying at the Atl pay scale (ofcourse after a duration of atleast 1yr)? any opinions
if working in any office and learning how to build buildings will get you blackballed then i say fuck that shit.
oh and i'm wearing an 80 dollar tie.
Next thing you know someone is going to be telling us how much his briefs cost.....
I'm wearing an $80 paisley tie. And my cubicle rocks. I can't wait to drive my new SUV home to my new house.
ps - I am a robot.
this is crazy. and why the hell are you all wearing ties? do you really interact with clients that often during the week/day that you need to look pristine? that sux. i like my jeans, driving loafers, and reindeer boxers.
Excellend point, bucku, I think it's time the architecture profession moves towards a shirtless-office policy!
chili, gehry's office already has, and it's paying off!
ties come in handy for those moments when you need to hang yerself but don't have a noose.
or you only have the good noose you've been saving for special occasions
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