I second Nashville, TN. The city is thriving economically, and probably will always thrive economically for its strong tie to the music industry. It has a phenomonal art scene, great restaurants, charm, interesting museums, etc. The city has over 7 universities which gives it a youthful presence.
While it lacks in starchitects projects, many local firms have been genarating great designs. There also been a huge, successful push for the revitilization of its downtown and surrounding areas.
A city to be great should offer something unique as a physical place, but it should (or should have) certainly offer a contribution to our culture, to society, as well as be a cool place to live. If it has some starchitecture, great.
For the sake of this discussion, LA and NY are obviously not underrated, Chicago might be a liitle bit, from the perspective of the coasts. But places like Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Cincinnati, Nashville, Iowa City, Portland Oregon, Portland Maine, San Diego, Charlotte, even Reno are. However San Francisco being overrated is like saying Boston is overrated -- wrong. You might not like them, or not have had a good time there (sadly), but where would our culture be withoiut the contributions from these places of such intellectual capital? civil rights, counterculture, the personal computer -- that's overrated? hell, you might not even be surfin this Archinect discussion on the internet...
I cant speak for Boston-Ive never been there, unfortunately, and actually really want to see it. But I can see a case for SF being overrated-the things that it is famous for-counterculture, personal computers...they occurred 20-50 years ago. And up until very recently, it was architecturally really stagnant-even now a lot of the interesting stuff that is going up is from architects outside the Bay Area and in some cases, could only get built because the client had the right to go above the design review boards-(ex. the Federal Building by Morphosis) which have locked SF into this nostalgic look for years which has prevented anything new from occurring. And a lot of the intellectual capital and innovation in SF isnt in the city, it's in Palo Alto and Berkeley. I think a great city is one that is constantly innovating and open to change, and I dont know that SF, even though I love it and it's almost criminally pretty, is not really like that anymore-sometimes it seems too in love with itself to keep striving to do anything new anymore. I am a "what have you done for me lately' kind of guy when it comes to cities. As far as art and culture, it's not in the league of a Los Angeles.
I go back and forth on whether Austin is underrated or not-I love it, but it bigs itself up so much, the arts and culture should get beefed up, there is a lot to do if you are outdoorsy, the food is good, but sometimes I think it is missing something or hasnt gotten there yet.. I also think Houston has a great underrated arts and culture scene, good higher education (so does Austin), and is actually quite quirky and diverse.
Apparently overrated-everyone I know who has been there hates it-Miami.
20-50 years ago? ever heard of Google, EBay, Adobe, Apple, HP, Yahoo, You Tube, Flickr, Macromedia, Sun, CraigsList, etc., etc., (that recent NY Times article on Sequoia Capital reported on how nowhere else is even close to the SF Bay area when it comes to investment in new tech innovation, even after the dot.com bust, web 2.0 is just as big as the boom) -- sure its not all in SF proper (which is tiny - only 7x7 miles) but rather the metro area, but none of this, nor Berkeley, nor Palo Alto would be there were it not for SF.
Sure there's a long way to go in terms of opening eyes/minds when it comes to aesthetics that challenge the norm in architecture/urbanism, but in mentioning the Morphosis project skirting city planning, you fail to aknowledge the DeYoung, the Libeskind Jewsih Museum and Piano bldg in construction, Saitowitz's Yerba Buena lofts and the unbuilt OMA Prada that all passed through city planning in recent years...and obviously its not in the league of LA when it comes to art -- nothing is but NY -- but in terms of culture if you pit Hollywood vs. the web/internet I'm not so sure these days...
Overall it's a good place to live for someone who makes decent money, has an alcohol and/or espresso problem and hasn't made any kids, i.e., a young architect. Proves that corruption can make for a wonderful town. It's conveniently located: A quick rail/bus/ferry ride to Manhattan or train ride to anywhere else in the NE. You can own a car or not and be equally miserable either way. If the bicyclists were more numerous and more organized, they could rule the town. Ditto for the hardcore Segway thrashers.
The city I'd move to from the NYC area if manifest destiny grabbed hold of me as it has for almost everyone else in my family (I was born in CA). I've been there five times in as many years to visit my cousin and his girl and always look forward to going back again. Short of a sizeable homeless population which dabbles in heroin and crystal meth, it ain't too bad a place to buy a cheap house. Their controversial zoning methodologies seem to be a plus for most.
It is from the perspective of those in my circle -- mainly Manhattanites who've never spent much time on the West Coast. Most of them think of LA, San Fran or Seattle when they think of cities on, or close to, the Pacific. Just as a lot of people on the West Coast think of Boston, New York or DC when they think of East Coast cities. They may not ever consider Providence, RI -- the most charming city I've been to in the NE. So I'm putting that up on the board too:
Archbishop - I think Hoboken really counts as part of NYC. It's closer to Manhattan than 95% of Brooklyn and Queens, and also shares the same mass transit system. Hoboken is also extremely expensive, there isn't even a reasonably priced condo anywhere there, never mind any bargains or deals. Hoboken zoning is a funny thing, since Hoboken is one of the last places where the mob actually has some power, you can more or less build whatever you like provided you pony up enough cash to the right people. Hoboken isn't such a bad place (if you can get over the white hat brigade vomited in the streets each night), but it is far from underrated. Hoboken is where guido's that have somehow managed to graduate college go to before they get married and start popping out younger guidos.
Emilyrides, all good points but "...guido's that have somehow managed to graduate college..."? -- I haven't ever met anyone fitting that description in Hoboken, and I've been there for over five years.
OK -- I was quite bothered to find out that STL is no longer the most populous city on the Mississippi. Ahhhh, sighhhhh....grrrrrrr....
I will still fight for my Saint Louis as an underated city because we ARE coming BACK! City population has grown in the past years and there is a good number of interesting projects giong on or just completed.
In the just completed category, the new Maki-designed Sam Fox Center at WashU. Quite nice. Insular, but nice.
Damn you MSP, we will rise again! Give it 5 years tops.
I just find it funny that every time this thread pops up, Minneapolis is in the first handful of posts. I just hope nobody blows the place up too much. I live in New York now, but would love to move back there in 5 years and start a practice. I really believe the area is ripe for good design. Scandanavians can be convinced of the merits of good design. Plus all of the top notch advertising firms, Blu-Dot, and oh yes even Target helps elevate the design acumen of the locals. So here is my best attempt at a flame:
Minneapolis is terrible, The winters are super cold, summers are real humid, mosquitoes are relentless, everyone is fat, blonde, and speaks with a funny twang, drunk drivers are everywhere, public transit is a joke, sprawl, mall of america is terrible, and Minnesota nice is a sham.
a friend & former classmate of mine is making huge architectural waves in Sioux City, Ia, my hometown (yes there are cities in iowa, barry). For instance, a new design school.
the fact that it has come up once in this discussion is reason enough to discuss it. houston is the city that every city not named New York, Chicago, LA, San Fran, Portland, and Seatle wants to be but doesn't know it. yeah, yeah, harp on the air quality, but i'll suck in air born cancer knowing that i can shop, jog around Rice University, hang out in Montrose and the Heights, go to world class theater, stroll through the menil collection, experience the most fabulous tree canopies in North America, and be in a city where everyone's a minority. You can make fun of us, say that we are fat, moan about our traffic, and complain about the weather, but come on . . . sure, they might bug you; however, we have more important things to do than whine about humidity and traffic - while you are shoveling snow and calling us names.
Archbishop - About the guidos, Really? Truly, there are plenty of cool people in Hoboken no doubt, and there are some good hangouts as well (maxwell's is off the charts for good shows), but I feel that most of the people in Hoboken are meat heads. Every time I spend a night out there I see a few guys bashing each others brains in while their buddies debate the finer points of '84 Mustang 5.0's versus early 80's IROQ's. Maybe we have divergent definitions of 'guido'.
I'll give some point to St. Louis, it's a really beautiful city with a great culture for it's size. It's just a shame there are no jobs and most of the inner city is pretty bombed out. I see a lot of potential there though.
I'm kicking in for Zap, North Dakota. Ya know Zip to Zap! It wasn't Woodstock but could have been. Second Vote is Bruce, South Dakota, Ya know Bong to Bruce! Life is damn good in those small isolated places long as you know how to live.
tboy -
I agree that Houston is under rated. Good culture, good diversity, excellent business climate (including architects), low cost of living, named after Texas hero Sam Houston, etc.
On the other hand we've got Dallas. Over rated by a crappy 80's television series and by American Airlines as their largest hub.
Columbus got white castle, wendy's, the limited, and ????
beyond the football/basket ball at OSU, there is no there there.
and then you're stuck in ohio, too many hours to Chicago or NY to easily find the metropolitan vibe.
I went to the KSA before it was known as the KSA, and the last time I went back, OSU had destroyed high street and the short north. Is there any hope for Columbus?
did they ever fix the leaks and the solar oven in the upper gallery? anybody have pictures of the dozens of buckets scattered through out the wexner on a rainy day?
Hoboken is pretty legit. Ugly, and with the occasional meathead/guido/anyone that ever considered a brooklyn fade, but hey, it's basically NYC, you can't escape those things there. It's clean, people are polite, and has RIDICULOUS views of the city. I'm a fan.
I tried that whole not living in a city thing. In the middle of nowhere, Oklahoma. It was pretty boring, so i moved to Chicago. And now I don't need a car. (Take that, Houston!) And I don't have to design Wal-Marts - Oklahoma is way too close to Bentonville.
-------------------------------------------
For most underrated city, I'll have to go with someone completely different, though. Las Cruces, New Mexico. 100,000 people, and county seat of one of the poorest counties in the nation, terrible schools, probably no architectural scene to speak of.
But, growing insanely fast, situated in the middle of a beautiful valley surrounded by huge mountains, with great weather, great hiking, great adobe buildings, and great cacti. No lack of water despite being in the middle of the desert, and cheap a/c is plentiful (people don't use electric a/c down there...they use swamp coolers). It has some of the cheapest housing anywhere, and progressive people because of the university, White Sands Missile Range and the spaceport, and its location generally in a progressive state. And where else can you find land for $200/acre?
I would move to Silver City before Las Cruces any day. Outdoors magazine rated it one of the top 5 places to live...lots of access to national forests, Gila, and something Las Cruces does not have...trees.
Rural land in New Mexico is amazingly cheep as long as you are prepared to live off the grid.
this gets bumped and I see 3 back Saint Louis is represented. Good Job nh.
IN evidence of this I'll point out that we already have museums by Ando, Cloepfil, Maki, and that the forthcoming addition to the Art Museum is by Chipperfield.
That said, I visited KC and Holl's Bloch Building at the Nelson-Atkins a month or so ago, and that shit's for real!!! Pretty awesome, and seemed like a great city because of it.
And while I have real hopes for Chipperfield here, I can't see (yet) how he'll surpass Holl in KC. It'll be interesting to compare the 2 once done.
Most Under-rated N. American Cities
I second Nashville, TN. The city is thriving economically, and probably will always thrive economically for its strong tie to the music industry. It has a phenomonal art scene, great restaurants, charm, interesting museums, etc. The city has over 7 universities which gives it a youthful presence.
While it lacks in starchitects projects, many local firms have been genarating great designs. There also been a huge, successful push for the revitilization of its downtown and surrounding areas.
archasm...besides that it's expensive there. explain why san francisco is over rated?
I third Nashville. I love that town.
Does starchitecture make a city? No. But rivers and bays do. Or they used to.
as did culture ...
A city to be great should offer something unique as a physical place, but it should (or should have) certainly offer a contribution to our culture, to society, as well as be a cool place to live. If it has some starchitecture, great.
For the sake of this discussion, LA and NY are obviously not underrated, Chicago might be a liitle bit, from the perspective of the coasts. But places like Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Cincinnati, Nashville, Iowa City, Portland Oregon, Portland Maine, San Diego, Charlotte, even Reno are. However San Francisco being overrated is like saying Boston is overrated -- wrong. You might not like them, or not have had a good time there (sadly), but where would our culture be withoiut the contributions from these places of such intellectual capital? civil rights, counterculture, the personal computer -- that's overrated? hell, you might not even be surfin this Archinect discussion on the internet...
Iowa has a city??????
I cant speak for Boston-Ive never been there, unfortunately, and actually really want to see it. But I can see a case for SF being overrated-the things that it is famous for-counterculture, personal computers...they occurred 20-50 years ago. And up until very recently, it was architecturally really stagnant-even now a lot of the interesting stuff that is going up is from architects outside the Bay Area and in some cases, could only get built because the client had the right to go above the design review boards-(ex. the Federal Building by Morphosis) which have locked SF into this nostalgic look for years which has prevented anything new from occurring. And a lot of the intellectual capital and innovation in SF isnt in the city, it's in Palo Alto and Berkeley. I think a great city is one that is constantly innovating and open to change, and I dont know that SF, even though I love it and it's almost criminally pretty, is not really like that anymore-sometimes it seems too in love with itself to keep striving to do anything new anymore. I am a "what have you done for me lately' kind of guy when it comes to cities. As far as art and culture, it's not in the league of a Los Angeles.
I go back and forth on whether Austin is underrated or not-I love it, but it bigs itself up so much, the arts and culture should get beefed up, there is a lot to do if you are outdoorsy, the food is good, but sometimes I think it is missing something or hasnt gotten there yet.. I also think Houston has a great underrated arts and culture scene, good higher education (so does Austin), and is actually quite quirky and diverse.
Apparently overrated-everyone I know who has been there hates it-Miami.
20-50 years ago? ever heard of Google, EBay, Adobe, Apple, HP, Yahoo, You Tube, Flickr, Macromedia, Sun, CraigsList, etc., etc., (that recent NY Times article on Sequoia Capital reported on how nowhere else is even close to the SF Bay area when it comes to investment in new tech innovation, even after the dot.com bust, web 2.0 is just as big as the boom) -- sure its not all in SF proper (which is tiny - only 7x7 miles) but rather the metro area, but none of this, nor Berkeley, nor Palo Alto would be there were it not for SF.
Sure there's a long way to go in terms of opening eyes/minds when it comes to aesthetics that challenge the norm in architecture/urbanism, but in mentioning the Morphosis project skirting city planning, you fail to aknowledge the DeYoung, the Libeskind Jewsih Museum and Piano bldg in construction, Saitowitz's Yerba Buena lofts and the unbuilt OMA Prada that all passed through city planning in recent years...and obviously its not in the league of LA when it comes to art -- nothing is but NY -- but in terms of culture if you pit Hollywood vs. the web/internet I'm not so sure these days...
Hoboken, NJ
Overall it's a good place to live for someone who makes decent money, has an alcohol and/or espresso problem and hasn't made any kids, i.e., a young architect. Proves that corruption can make for a wonderful town. It's conveniently located: A quick rail/bus/ferry ride to Manhattan or train ride to anywhere else in the NE. You can own a car or not and be equally miserable either way. If the bicyclists were more numerous and more organized, they could rule the town. Ditto for the hardcore Segway thrashers.
Portland, OR
The city I'd move to from the NYC area if manifest destiny grabbed hold of me as it has for almost everyone else in my family (I was born in CA). I've been there five times in as many years to visit my cousin and his girl and always look forward to going back again. Short of a sizeable homeless population which dabbles in heroin and crystal meth, it ain't too bad a place to buy a cheap house. Their controversial zoning methodologies seem to be a plus for most.
how is Portland underrated? Portland Maine is, but that pacific northwest town?
It is from the perspective of those in my circle -- mainly Manhattanites who've never spent much time on the West Coast. Most of them think of LA, San Fran or Seattle when they think of cities on, or close to, the Pacific. Just as a lot of people on the West Coast think of Boston, New York or DC when they think of East Coast cities. They may not ever consider Providence, RI -- the most charming city I've been to in the NE. So I'm putting that up on the board too:
Providence, RI
Archbishop - I think Hoboken really counts as part of NYC. It's closer to Manhattan than 95% of Brooklyn and Queens, and also shares the same mass transit system. Hoboken is also extremely expensive, there isn't even a reasonably priced condo anywhere there, never mind any bargains or deals. Hoboken zoning is a funny thing, since Hoboken is one of the last places where the mob actually has some power, you can more or less build whatever you like provided you pony up enough cash to the right people. Hoboken isn't such a bad place (if you can get over the white hat brigade vomited in the streets each night), but it is far from underrated. Hoboken is where guido's that have somehow managed to graduate college go to before they get married and start popping out younger guidos.
Emilyrides, all good points but "...guido's that have somehow managed to graduate college..."? -- I haven't ever met anyone fitting that description in Hoboken, and I've been there for over five years.
Denver
OK -- I was quite bothered to find out that STL is no longer the most populous city on the Mississippi. Ahhhh, sighhhhh....grrrrrrr....
I will still fight for my Saint Louis as an underated city because we ARE coming BACK! City population has grown in the past years and there is a good number of interesting projects giong on or just completed.
In the just completed category, the new Maki-designed Sam Fox Center at WashU. Quite nice. Insular, but nice.
Damn you MSP, we will rise again! Give it 5 years tops.
I just find it funny that every time this thread pops up, Minneapolis is in the first handful of posts. I just hope nobody blows the place up too much. I live in New York now, but would love to move back there in 5 years and start a practice. I really believe the area is ripe for good design. Scandanavians can be convinced of the merits of good design. Plus all of the top notch advertising firms, Blu-Dot, and oh yes even Target helps elevate the design acumen of the locals. So here is my best attempt at a flame:
Minneapolis is terrible, The winters are super cold, summers are real humid, mosquitoes are relentless, everyone is fat, blonde, and speaks with a funny twang, drunk drivers are everywhere, public transit is a joke, sprawl, mall of america is terrible, and Minnesota nice is a sham.
sammy- now those things are bad???? and what city dosn't have 9 out of ten of those things?
sammy - you forgot the bad drivers.
i agree with sammy's second paragraph. it's like i wrote it, except with more commas.
a friend & former classmate of mine is making huge architectural waves in Sioux City, Ia, my hometown (yes there are cities in iowa, barry). For instance, a new design school.
DETROIT !!!! no doubt!
houston
no question.
the fact that it has come up once in this discussion is reason enough to discuss it. houston is the city that every city not named New York, Chicago, LA, San Fran, Portland, and Seatle wants to be but doesn't know it. yeah, yeah, harp on the air quality, but i'll suck in air born cancer knowing that i can shop, jog around Rice University, hang out in Montrose and the Heights, go to world class theater, stroll through the menil collection, experience the most fabulous tree canopies in North America, and be in a city where everyone's a minority. You can make fun of us, say that we are fat, moan about our traffic, and complain about the weather, but come on . . . sure, they might bug you; however, we have more important things to do than whine about humidity and traffic - while you are shoveling snow and calling us names.
Archbishop - About the guidos, Really? Truly, there are plenty of cool people in Hoboken no doubt, and there are some good hangouts as well (maxwell's is off the charts for good shows), but I feel that most of the people in Hoboken are meat heads. Every time I spend a night out there I see a few guys bashing each others brains in while their buddies debate the finer points of '84 Mustang 5.0's versus early 80's IROQ's. Maybe we have divergent definitions of 'guido'.
I'll give some point to St. Louis, it's a really beautiful city with a great culture for it's size. It's just a shame there are no jobs and most of the inner city is pretty bombed out. I see a lot of potential there though.
I'm kicking in for Zap, North Dakota. Ya know Zip to Zap! It wasn't Woodstock but could have been. Second Vote is Bruce, South Dakota, Ya know Bong to Bruce! Life is damn good in those small isolated places long as you know how to live.
tboy -
I agree that Houston is under rated. Good culture, good diversity, excellent business climate (including architects), low cost of living, named after Texas hero Sam Houston, etc.
On the other hand we've got Dallas. Over rated by a crappy 80's television series and by American Airlines as their largest hub.
Columbus
Okay, I'm a little biased because its my hometown but I thinks a great mixture of big city/ small town feel...
If you're into that sorta thing.
Columbus Ohio....
I guess I should be specific b/c there's more than one
Emily, it's IROC - not IROQ and it's an acronym for
I-talian
R-etard
O-ut
C-ruising
Columbus got white castle, wendy's, the limited, and ????
beyond the football/basket ball at OSU, there is no there there.
and then you're stuck in ohio, too many hours to Chicago or NY to easily find the metropolitan vibe.
I went to the KSA before it was known as the KSA, and the last time I went back, OSU had destroyed high street and the short north. Is there any hope for Columbus?
the wexner center is a great institution to have.
they rebuilt south campus with high density buildings, and the short north has really taken off with thriving gallery and indy music scenes.
but yeah, you're in the middle of ohio...
did they ever fix the leaks and the solar oven in the upper gallery? anybody have pictures of the dozens of buckets scattered through out the wexner on a rainy day?
a bit on the diminutive side, but...
fort collins, co; afterall, it is the best place to live in america
Hoboken is pretty legit. Ugly, and with the occasional meathead/guido/anyone that ever considered a brooklyn fade, but hey, it's basically NYC, you can't escape those things there. It's clean, people are polite, and has RIDICULOUS views of the city. I'm a fan.
what about not living in a city? is this at all possible for you people? there are advantages to avoiding cities, you know.
Pasadena is my Town.......
yawn
Where's that?
I tried that whole not living in a city thing. In the middle of nowhere, Oklahoma. It was pretty boring, so i moved to Chicago. And now I don't need a car. (Take that, Houston!) And I don't have to design Wal-Marts - Oklahoma is way too close to Bentonville.
-------------------------------------------
For most underrated city, I'll have to go with someone completely different, though. Las Cruces, New Mexico. 100,000 people, and county seat of one of the poorest counties in the nation, terrible schools, probably no architectural scene to speak of.
But, growing insanely fast, situated in the middle of a beautiful valley surrounded by huge mountains, with great weather, great hiking, great adobe buildings, and great cacti. No lack of water despite being in the middle of the desert, and cheap a/c is plentiful (people don't use electric a/c down there...they use swamp coolers). It has some of the cheapest housing anywhere, and progressive people because of the university, White Sands Missile Range and the spaceport, and its location generally in a progressive state. And where else can you find land for $200/acre?
detroit...thats why no-one lives here
erie, pennsylvania
what would i do without wsee?
I would move to Silver City before Las Cruces any day. Outdoors magazine rated it one of the top 5 places to live...lots of access to national forests, Gila, and something Las Cruces does not have...trees.
Rural land in New Mexico is amazingly cheep as long as you are prepared to live off the grid.
i would move to reserve, new mexico.
I have my eye on land between El Malpais and Pie Town.
i prefer the ease of motel living
STL or maybe
G'Ville
Sarasota
~bump~
this gets bumped and I see 3 back Saint Louis is represented. Good Job nh.
IN evidence of this I'll point out that we already have museums by Ando, Cloepfil, Maki, and that the forthcoming addition to the Art Museum is by Chipperfield.
That said, I visited KC and Holl's Bloch Building at the Nelson-Atkins a month or so ago, and that shit's for real!!! Pretty awesome, and seemed like a great city because of it.
And while I have real hopes for Chipperfield here, I can't see (yet) how he'll surpass Holl in KC. It'll be interesting to compare the 2 once done.
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