ive been at a firm @ 4 mo.s + there is a woman who seems to be getting away doing jane_s_it all day .. and it is very, very strange.
she puts down on her time sheet that she is actually working for the client - i would say 89% more than what she actually does .. (shell put in 45 minutes on a job but bill for 8 hours) . there is essentially no supervision in our firm as the principals are too busy + at meetings or out --- (she doesn't really draft she's primarly prjct managing) .. but she sits away fr everyone else but next to me so i know what's going down -- [ ie 1.5 hr lunches, leaving early-when a plan checks due .. seeing her gazing at her fingertips .. often [??] .. etc
does this occur in many firms ? i find it somewhat unethical to be billing a client for someone sitting on the horn chatting for an hour to their friends, checking out their manicure .. not corresponding obviously w. the mech engineer ..
it just irks me -
in means of billing, does this seem the norm as for the firm, in a way it doesn't matter they are getting away with billing the client to have a licensed architect working on their job for 'x' amt. of hours_ ethically it's wrong but is this done a lot?
A lot of firms I've been with have had somewhat the opposite problem - i.e. underbilling the client for time worked. This is usually either because the project was being billed at a fixed fee or percentage of construction costs and the design phases were going way past their expected hours (Happens a lot in so-called "high-design" firms. Lots of people working lots of overtime to design cool buildings and clients getting lots of work for free.)
Sure, your issue happens a lot - but it isn't usually the firm that is deliberately overbilling (unless it is the principals themselves who are the big do-nothings.) The fault is usually on the part of the lazy employee(s) who are padding their timesheets. As you said yourself, this person doesn't sit near enough to others to be obseved that well. Most likely nobody realizes the extent to which she is wasting time.
I wouldn't put too much time and effort into worrying about this. A lot of do-nothings eventually get figured out - whether because they under-produce, miss deadlines, or even start sneaking whole vacation days and filling in their timesheets as if they were there (that's what did in someone who sat next to me in a large firm. People eventually start to notice if they're paying you but you never seem to be there.)
Some of them never do get caught - but you're going to run in to that type repeatedly and it just doesn't do you much good to get overly "irked" about it.
How is that you know what she's filling in on her timesheets anyway? If I were you I wouldn't look, because it's only going to annoy you. For your own peace of mind do not get involved.
Is your firm using a straight hourly biling procedure? (This is very unlikely in a larger firm.) If they're using any other system - i.e. a percentage of construction costs, fixed fee, etc. then the firm's rates are determined in part by calculating overhead - which includes employee salaries, benefits, taxes, etc. as well as all sorts of other operating costs - and then coming up with a rate that will cover this and result in a profit. So, the expense of keeping your coworker around is really pretty much built into the fee already, whether or not she is producing.
Your firm is probably assuming something like an 80% to 90% billability for a project manager, meaning that 10% to 20% of her hours are presumed to be spent on in-house issues that can't be billed. If she's spending a lot more of her time on non-billable tasks she's probably padding her timesheet more because she doesn't want to get flagged as not billing enough hours - not because she's part of a firm-wide system to bilk the clients.
i appreciate your feedback ormolu, i was just getting heated as our principal lays out our work week for us , ie # o hours we are on which pjct per week. this is info the entire office knows. i have been wking on a pjct w. her - [ where she is of obviously very little help.]. the result is it puts me in a position where i get angry, as the principals believe she IS actually working (with me) on the job and she is MIA. i can't say anything because i look like a tattletalepudjerk doing that. but when i get loaded down + she's picking her toenails on the phone it gets my nickers is a big old bunch..!!
thanks again - i will try to let it go..(*grain of salt). i know they are unaware - they're pretty passive.
I think you should talk to the bosses about her. Tell them that you're afraid that the firm will miss deadlines b/c she is only doing an hour or 2 of work a day.
I am currently working on a US$65,000,000 project with two other people - The chief architect, and an intern. The fee is roughly US$3,500,000. This project will take the three of us about three years, while working on other things.
If the chief Architect makes 100k/year x3=300K
I make around 50/year x3=150K
The intern makes 35K/year x3=105K
That's 555K in Payroll, with a whole hell of alot to spend on paper and ink.
I screw around as much as possible. (within reason)
Other people aren't as lucky, I know. If your (firms) fees are high enough you can take it easy every once in a while, unless you work for a real slave-driver.
If we sell ourselves to developers like a bunch of cut-throat fee whores, well then you'll have to work harder, faster, and longer to pick up the slack.
The key is to find a firm that does large projects, often not the most interesting, but profitable enough that you can make a decent living while keeping your sanity and preparing for your real future.
Aug 3, 04 2:41 pm ·
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billing ethics -?
ive been at a firm @ 4 mo.s + there is a woman who seems to be getting away doing jane_s_it all day .. and it is very, very strange.
she puts down on her time sheet that she is actually working for the client - i would say 89% more than what she actually does .. (shell put in 45 minutes on a job but bill for 8 hours) . there is essentially no supervision in our firm as the principals are too busy + at meetings or out --- (she doesn't really draft she's primarly prjct managing) .. but she sits away fr everyone else but next to me so i know what's going down -- [ ie 1.5 hr lunches, leaving early-when a plan checks due .. seeing her gazing at her fingertips .. often [??] .. etc
does this occur in many firms ? i find it somewhat unethical to be billing a client for someone sitting on the horn chatting for an hour to their friends, checking out their manicure .. not corresponding obviously w. the mech engineer ..
it just irks me -
in means of billing, does this seem the norm as for the firm, in a way it doesn't matter they are getting away with billing the client to have a licensed architect working on their job for 'x' amt. of hours_ ethically it's wrong but is this done a lot?
so I guess you havent asked to move away from debbie doom yet?
A lot of firms I've been with have had somewhat the opposite problem - i.e. underbilling the client for time worked. This is usually either because the project was being billed at a fixed fee or percentage of construction costs and the design phases were going way past their expected hours (Happens a lot in so-called "high-design" firms. Lots of people working lots of overtime to design cool buildings and clients getting lots of work for free.)
Sure, your issue happens a lot - but it isn't usually the firm that is deliberately overbilling (unless it is the principals themselves who are the big do-nothings.) The fault is usually on the part of the lazy employee(s) who are padding their timesheets. As you said yourself, this person doesn't sit near enough to others to be obseved that well. Most likely nobody realizes the extent to which she is wasting time.
I wouldn't put too much time and effort into worrying about this. A lot of do-nothings eventually get figured out - whether because they under-produce, miss deadlines, or even start sneaking whole vacation days and filling in their timesheets as if they were there (that's what did in someone who sat next to me in a large firm. People eventually start to notice if they're paying you but you never seem to be there.)
Some of them never do get caught - but you're going to run in to that type repeatedly and it just doesn't do you much good to get overly "irked" about it.
How is that you know what she's filling in on her timesheets anyway? If I were you I wouldn't look, because it's only going to annoy you. For your own peace of mind do not get involved.
Is your firm using a straight hourly biling procedure? (This is very unlikely in a larger firm.) If they're using any other system - i.e. a percentage of construction costs, fixed fee, etc. then the firm's rates are determined in part by calculating overhead - which includes employee salaries, benefits, taxes, etc. as well as all sorts of other operating costs - and then coming up with a rate that will cover this and result in a profit. So, the expense of keeping your coworker around is really pretty much built into the fee already, whether or not she is producing.
Your firm is probably assuming something like an 80% to 90% billability for a project manager, meaning that 10% to 20% of her hours are presumed to be spent on in-house issues that can't be billed. If she's spending a lot more of her time on non-billable tasks she's probably padding her timesheet more because she doesn't want to get flagged as not billing enough hours - not because she's part of a firm-wide system to bilk the clients.
i appreciate your feedback ormolu, i was just getting heated as our principal lays out our work week for us , ie # o hours we are on which pjct per week. this is info the entire office knows. i have been wking on a pjct w. her - [ where she is of obviously very little help.]. the result is it puts me in a position where i get angry, as the principals believe she IS actually working (with me) on the job and she is MIA. i can't say anything because i look like a tattletalepudjerk doing that. but when i get loaded down + she's picking her toenails on the phone it gets my nickers is a big old bunch..!!
thanks again - i will try to let it go..(*grain of salt). i know they are unaware - they're pretty passive.
I think you should talk to the bosses about her. Tell them that you're afraid that the firm will miss deadlines b/c she is only doing an hour or 2 of work a day.
I am currently working on a US$65,000,000 project with two other people - The chief architect, and an intern. The fee is roughly US$3,500,000. This project will take the three of us about three years, while working on other things.
If the chief Architect makes 100k/year x3=300K
I make around 50/year x3=150K
The intern makes 35K/year x3=105K
That's 555K in Payroll, with a whole hell of alot to spend on paper and ink.
I screw around as much as possible. (within reason)
Other people aren't as lucky, I know. If your (firms) fees are high enough you can take it easy every once in a while, unless you work for a real slave-driver.
If we sell ourselves to developers like a bunch of cut-throat fee whores, well then you'll have to work harder, faster, and longer to pick up the slack.
The key is to find a firm that does large projects, often not the most interesting, but profitable enough that you can make a decent living while keeping your sanity and preparing for your real future.
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