I've been arguing with someone else on this topic, and wondered what the archinect community thought of it. I was told that women wishing to enter architecture should already know how to draft and build models coming out of high school, because they had a more difficult time learning these skills, owing to the 'fact' that women don't play with spatial toys or build models of any sort when they are young, whereas boys play with legos and the like.
I, being a woman who had no problems picking up AutoCAD, modeling, hand drafting, or even 3D modeling, told the person who said this that he was full of shit and to drop his outdated stereotypes. The only disadvantages I have run into are contractors not listening to women as much, and women being expected to have a natural knack for interior finishes and being assigned that work regardless of training or interest.
What do you guys think? Are there any natural disadvantages that you can see for a woman in this field? Have you been subject to these sorts of stereotypes in your workplace? I feel like architecture has come a loooong way in the past twenty or thirty years, but I know that one experience does not fare a trend.
...though, given his time, thomas edison would probably have agreed with rationalist's dingnut. so they're both dingnuts. i can't believe we're still talking about this.
women have to work hard enough as it is to jump the hurdles that men put in their way. perpetuation of myths of their unpreparedness is tired. maybe some men need to do this so that they don't have to work so hard to stay ahead of industrious women?
I'm absolutely with you guys on this, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't speaking out of turn. At USC, probably 60% of the arch. students are women, and I was considered one of, if not the best in my year with drafting, rendering, etc. despite the fact that I had no training prior to entering college (because come on, what public high school teaches that?). So I was pretty appalled to see that stuff directed towards a high school girl interested in architecture on another website.
Girls play house and have tea parties - this is a natural analog for the practice of architecture. I'd think most guys are disadvantaged (unless they're gay) because we didn't do this as kids.
women are naturally advantaged when it comes to landscape architecture as they play with flowers more then most guys do (ok, we play with frogs, snails and worms) that make them more sensitive to cultivating things.
oh, guys who study drafting in high school tend to be really bad architecture students who think they know everything (I should know).
First of all, the implication that women are at an architectural disadvantage for any reason is fucking crazy.
I remember reading about this Ericson study where kids (5 or 6 year olds) were given blocks, told to make something out of them and tell a story about it. According to the article Ericson found that boys almost invariably built tall towers, the action of the story happening around the outside, and girls almost always made "corral" shapes and had the stories happen inside.
Ok. So at least at the time, there was the implication that, whether because of parental conditioning or some psychosexual predisposition there was a fundamental difference between the sense of space between boys and girls.
I had a professor once who proposed that the clearest characteristic that separates modern architecture from pre-modern architecture is a transition to a primary focus on space over material presence. If this is true, wouldnt this put women at an advantage in creating complex spaces? It seems funny to apply freudian criticism to architecture, but comparing say.. hadid to gehry, I think there are some amusing observations one could make. When you look at the absurd over prevalence of phallic symbols in most cities, I think it could certainly be argued that without women architecture has been at a terrible disadvantage for far too long.
In any case, obviously any predisposition in either direction is bound to be so astronomically small in comparison to the personal experience and drives of an individual as to be pointless to discuss outside of humorous observations.
that's part of it Steven. A big part of it. Men are used to having it their way, of calling the shots, of putting other people down and putting themselves on the pedestal. Enrollment in college in general is now dominated by women.
I actually agree, that in general, women AREN'T as naturally inclined to do well at math, physics, bullshit, etc. Women are, in general, better at other things that make good architects like communication, compassion, intuition, multi-tasking, and aesthetics/color. (These are all generalizations that should be dropped when addressing any specific person's skills and attributes.) SOOO, I will conclude that women make better architects than men, like treekilla says. And when you have a potent combo such as what I have, playing house and legos, and blowing the socks off both spatial and language tests, you have one hell of a (female) architect.
oh jesus! Update: it turns out the dingbat is a WOMAN!!!!!! And now she's offended that I said her stereotypes were outdated.... That's just sad, when I find out that it's women perpetuating the stereotypes as much as men.
I post on a website about colleges- I go on there to stay up to date on where I should be on the grad school admissions process, talk to people about the schools I'm interested in and such. So I occasionally drop by and give advice to the kidlets interested in architecture.
females fare both the best and worst in the construction industry. i've seen some who:
exhibit A: design meeting. group of people - some women. archie female as design professional at end of table. she could answer every question, right or wrong, with grace and an ease that only a female could have. great to have her sensitive but knowledgeable experience on board. easy on the eyes... helps.
other hand,
exhibit B: design meeting. group of people - some women. nervous bitchy (female) project leader that talks too much and laughs inexplicably and often. defensive because she feels that (insert rationalists friend, dingut's comments here) like she has something to prove and is using "female power" to do it.
no one wants her on their project.
its gone both ways in extreme measures (that i've noticed)
but arborassassin, i think your take is....rather...unfounded. its hard to perceive how the playful banter that a child would have in terms of imaginary parties and having them via a homochildhood, or heterochildhood could affect the "natural analog" for architecture as an adult profession. i mean - what if the same concept that a girl has founded in "playing tea" a boy could match in organizing the homebases for playing "tag"...?
i will say that at the trailer, a woman would more than likely have to grow thicker skin - it gets raunchy sometimes. i mean - dirty bar room table slappin cigar smokin raunchy. and these guys taking her serious would have to come from a firm stance on what she represents from the beginning.
disadvantage? my opinion - yes, but not as much as it used to be. and soon that dis advantage will dis appear.
perfect place. would at least make more sense than most of above.
women and men are different, but not THAT different. my oldest daughter loves math and painting and building things...my youngest plays with dolls more, but also builds with models and she paints...my own belief is that culture has more to do with sex in determining ability to do things. wealthy families offer more opportunities for their children than poor ones, and that continues on through to the professions people might chose, or excel at...gender? not so much an issue.
Good thread, rationalist. I think about this topic often. It's still very much a man's world out on the jobsite. I find myself trying to be more direct (but not necessary overly tough) with my words and actions as a way to earn respect. I don't feel like I have something to prove - like kyll's 'exhibit B,' but I do feel the need to stand my ground and not be a push-over.
As for the idea in the initial post that girls don't have the same playtime opportunities as boys, I will offer up this photo:
DCA, age 5.
I musta been buildin' somethin... Look at that expression of concentration! I'm still just as serious today.
i have come across maybe two or three women in school that made my jaw drop, that one that comes to mind is Monica Telescu, i know i am spelling her name wrong, but she went to Cooper. in first year she did a project based on Einstein On The Beach. it was then i knew architecture could be better...
many women i have come to know seem to lack that self confidence that she had. i want to work with women that challenge preconceived notions, that attack long held bullshit belief systems, that say fuck convention, and say fuck you to my face. i can't build museum quality models and don't care if the opposite does either.
i have similar experience to you betadine, but to be fair it is about the same for men. i think i have met only one or two really amazing guys at school or through work. some people stand out. most don't. don matter, male or female...
If there is any influential factor, I'd place class as the natural advantage/disadvantage. Gender? Ha ha. No. Men and women and those persons who fall between the binary can all contribute.
Inspired by DCA, here's baby namby girl venturing into phallic symbolism.
as DCA said "I once heard that women can see something like 1,000 colors, whereas men can see something like 100 colors."
women are excellent in choosing color & combination
i've worked with girls in studio before.
girls are less stubborn than guys, so it's much easier to share idea.
i've worked with stubborn guys before (i've heard i was stubborn, but they were worse), and it wasn't that pleasant
however, girls take argument, criticizm more personally, so you can't really do "argue now, forget it later" a.k.a bitching at your group members
in a group project, i bought a material for group, and i requested one girl to pay me $8, and she was complaining to her friend that i am so cheap.
Women are better at interior spaces because we are "entered" whereas men erect buildings because they "enter".
And if you believe that I'll sell you the Brooklyn Bridge too.
Lots of good stuff here, and lots of silly stuff too, and ultimately it is all personal experience and non-scientific (except maybe that thing about color - cool).
namby probably has it closest - class and education are bigger determinants than gender.
kyll, your comment was well-stated as always. There are genders of all types who seem comfortable in their skin and use it to everyone's advantage. Then there are assholes who do the opposite, again, of both genders.
Young women in the field need to remind themselves to be assertive but not aggressive when they are dealing with some of the aspects of this profession that are more "male" such as construction site visits. It gets way easier as one gets older, both because age brings experience and thus confidence, and because it brings respect.
As to your original post, rationalist, we can all recall stories of childhood that we can later point to as indicators of our life choices. I always made little houses in the weeds in our backyard for my toys - typically a loft-like setup, with open living and kitchen areas and a more seclduded bedroom. Once I got the little house set up I was never that interested in actually playing with it - I just liked the planning and implementation part. So there ya go - destined to be an architect.
noctilucent, I'm only infatuated with cabinetry right now because that's what I'm mainly dealing with, since kitchen renovations make up a huge portion of my current work. When I was responsible for exterior wall sections on a dormitory I was obsessed with water infiltration, fireproofing, and steel beam section dimensions. I enjoy whatever the profession throws me.
And Strawbeary is right - it is fun and sometimes useful as an analytic device to claim stereotypes re: gender, but those stereotypes need to be dropped immediately when dealing with an actual human in real life.
lb- I only pointed to that because the woman I was arguing with claimed that women don't build for play as kids, which I thought was just stupid. I couldn't believe someone really thought there was such a strict gender divide in the toys that I always considered uni-sex. Sure, Barbies and GIJoes were gender oriented, but LEGOS?!
"I actually agree, that in general, women AREN'T as naturally inclined to do well at math, physics, bullshit, etc. Women are, in general, better at other things that make good architects like communication, compassion, intuition, multi-tasking, and aesthetics/color. "
was this a joke? i know that you said that it can be dropped for
individual instances...but at the very least what makes a woman better
at multi-tasking? intuition? aesthetics?
i can understand the compassion and communication part...women are
far more involved during conversations generally...the idea of touch
and eye contact etc.
i am interested in the idea of spacial abilities and such..and if it's
gender related. i know that personally i have always had an ability
to 'see' a space before it's built (as i'm sure most/many architects
can).
also is saying that men are better at physics/math any better/worse
stereotyping than saying men are better architects? didn't the
president? of harvard get fired for saying virtually the same thing.
i'm also interested in finding out the scientific analysis that went
into determining that men are better bull-shitters...
What's interesting to me is girls probably all had both female AND male dolls - how else would we have been able to simulate kissing etc. with them? - whereas I imagine very, very few boys ever had a female doll or action figure. Princess Leah, perhaps.
Once on long ago (3-4 months) while interviewing with a nightmare of a firm, I was told of these natural disadvantages....
He called them babies, but I guess that would be the case for all professions. In so many words, he said, 'I'd love for you to come and work for me... I just hope your stay here will be longer than 2-3 years, seeing that you are in your prime years for having children.'
EK!
On the flip side... Growing up in the desert, I spent a lot of time playing in the dirt making tunnels under the concrete sidewalk and building stuff out of clay (for my barbies of course).
this is a really lame discussion...the world is made up of individuals and gender is but a small peice of the melange that constitutes each of us. in fact, i'm somewhat dismayed that we're only viewing the gender issue in either/or terms as their are (an admittedly small but hardly irrelevant) number of people born with both male & female physical attributes. it's disappointing that these individuals while physically embodying the gray area that makes up most of our emotional & mental composition are shamefully relegated to the fringes of society.
incidently, when voting today (which i admit to doing sheepishly since i'm an advocate of not voting) i tended to choose women when faced with a choice that i otherwise knew nothing about...just figured that there were already to men running things
women at a natural 'disadvantage' in architecture?
I've been arguing with someone else on this topic, and wondered what the archinect community thought of it. I was told that women wishing to enter architecture should already know how to draft and build models coming out of high school, because they had a more difficult time learning these skills, owing to the 'fact' that women don't play with spatial toys or build models of any sort when they are young, whereas boys play with legos and the like.
I, being a woman who had no problems picking up AutoCAD, modeling, hand drafting, or even 3D modeling, told the person who said this that he was full of shit and to drop his outdated stereotypes. The only disadvantages I have run into are contractors not listening to women as much, and women being expected to have a natural knack for interior finishes and being assigned that work regardless of training or interest.
What do you guys think? Are there any natural disadvantages that you can see for a woman in this field? Have you been subject to these sorts of stereotypes in your workplace? I feel like architecture has come a loooong way in the past twenty or thirty years, but I know that one experience does not fare a trend.
rationalist: Fact there are more women in the University Architectural Studies Programs in Brazil than there are men.
- Thomas Edison
That guy sounds like a dingnut.
not thomas edison, the dingnut rationalist is talking about.
...though, given his time, thomas edison would probably have agreed with rationalist's dingnut. so they're both dingnuts. i can't believe we're still talking about this.
women have to work hard enough as it is to jump the hurdles that men put in their way. perpetuation of myths of their unpreparedness is tired. maybe some men need to do this so that they don't have to work so hard to stay ahead of industrious women?
I'm absolutely with you guys on this, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't speaking out of turn. At USC, probably 60% of the arch. students are women, and I was considered one of, if not the best in my year with drafting, rendering, etc. despite the fact that I had no training prior to entering college (because come on, what public high school teaches that?). So I was pretty appalled to see that stuff directed towards a high school girl interested in architecture on another website.
Girls play house and have tea parties - this is a natural analog for the practice of architecture. I'd think most guys are disadvantaged (unless they're gay) because we didn't do this as kids.
women are naturally advantaged when it comes to landscape architecture as they play with flowers more then most guys do (ok, we play with frogs, snails and worms) that make them more sensitive to cultivating things.
oh, guys who study drafting in high school tend to be really bad architecture students who think they know everything (I should know).
First of all, the implication that women are at an architectural disadvantage for any reason is fucking crazy.
I remember reading about this Ericson study where kids (5 or 6 year olds) were given blocks, told to make something out of them and tell a story about it. According to the article Ericson found that boys almost invariably built tall towers, the action of the story happening around the outside, and girls almost always made "corral" shapes and had the stories happen inside.
Ok. So at least at the time, there was the implication that, whether because of parental conditioning or some psychosexual predisposition there was a fundamental difference between the sense of space between boys and girls.
I had a professor once who proposed that the clearest characteristic that separates modern architecture from pre-modern architecture is a transition to a primary focus on space over material presence. If this is true, wouldnt this put women at an advantage in creating complex spaces? It seems funny to apply freudian criticism to architecture, but comparing say.. hadid to gehry, I think there are some amusing observations one could make. When you look at the absurd over prevalence of phallic symbols in most cities, I think it could certainly be argued that without women architecture has been at a terrible disadvantage for far too long.
In any case, obviously any predisposition in either direction is bound to be so astronomically small in comparison to the personal experience and drives of an individual as to be pointless to discuss outside of humorous observations.
that's part of it Steven. A big part of it. Men are used to having it their way, of calling the shots, of putting other people down and putting themselves on the pedestal. Enrollment in college in general is now dominated by women.
I actually agree, that in general, women AREN'T as naturally inclined to do well at math, physics, bullshit, etc. Women are, in general, better at other things that make good architects like communication, compassion, intuition, multi-tasking, and aesthetics/color. (These are all generalizations that should be dropped when addressing any specific person's skills and attributes.) SOOO, I will conclude that women make better architects than men, like treekilla says. And when you have a potent combo such as what I have, playing house and legos, and blowing the socks off both spatial and language tests, you have one hell of a (female) architect.
oh jesus! Update: it turns out the dingbat is a WOMAN!!!!!! And now she's offended that I said her stereotypes were outdated.... That's just sad, when I find out that it's women perpetuating the stereotypes as much as men.
= (
was my last post kinda scatter-brained? I gave up coffee this morning.
where are you reading/hearing this rationalist?
wonder what winka played with as a girl...
I post on a website about colleges- I go on there to stay up to date on where I should be on the grad school admissions process, talk to people about the schools I'm interested in and such. So I occasionally drop by and give advice to the kidlets interested in architecture.
hmm...
i didnt know ratl'ist and strawb were fembots.
k u d o s
females fare both the best and worst in the construction industry. i've seen some who:
exhibit A: design meeting. group of people - some women. archie female as design professional at end of table. she could answer every question, right or wrong, with grace and an ease that only a female could have. great to have her sensitive but knowledgeable experience on board. easy on the eyes... helps.
other hand,
exhibit B: design meeting. group of people - some women. nervous bitchy (female) project leader that talks too much and laughs inexplicably and often. defensive because she feels that (insert rationalists friend, dingut's comments here) like she has something to prove and is using "female power" to do it.
no one wants her on their project.
its gone both ways in extreme measures (that i've noticed)
but arborassassin, i think your take is....rather...unfounded. its hard to perceive how the playful banter that a child would have in terms of imaginary parties and having them via a homochildhood, or heterochildhood could affect the "natural analog" for architecture as an adult profession. i mean - what if the same concept that a girl has founded in "playing tea" a boy could match in organizing the homebases for playing "tag"...?
i will say that at the trailer, a woman would more than likely have to grow thicker skin - it gets raunchy sometimes. i mean - dirty bar room table slappin cigar smokin raunchy. and these guys taking her serious would have to come from a firm stance on what she represents from the beginning.
disadvantage? my opinion - yes, but not as much as it used to be. and soon that dis advantage will dis appear.
is this the wrong place to suggest a "girls of archinect" calender???
no...good idea
depends on how much profit would the girls of archinect make off of this affair
The Best Architect I know is a Woman and she happens to be my Wife!
perfect place. would at least make more sense than most of above.
women and men are different, but not THAT different. my oldest daughter loves math and painting and building things...my youngest plays with dolls more, but also builds with models and she paints...my own belief is that culture has more to do with sex in determining ability to do things. wealthy families offer more opportunities for their children than poor ones, and that continues on through to the professions people might chose, or excel at...gender? not so much an issue.
third.
snooker, I like the capitalization - emphasizes your respect.
I once heard that women can see something like 1,000 colors, whereas men can see something like 100 colors.
It turns out that there is some scientific evidence to support this.
Good thread, rationalist. I think about this topic often. It's still very much a man's world out on the jobsite. I find myself trying to be more direct (but not necessary overly tough) with my words and actions as a way to earn respect. I don't feel like I have something to prove - like kyll's 'exhibit B,' but I do feel the need to stand my ground and not be a push-over.
As for the idea in the initial post that girls don't have the same playtime opportunities as boys, I will offer up this photo:
DCA, age 5.
I musta been buildin' somethin... Look at that expression of concentration! I'm still just as serious today.
DCA – interesting stats about men vs women on the color issue. Now I know why women always disagree with men on color! Cute pic by the way :)
i have come across maybe two or three women in school that made my jaw drop, that one that comes to mind is Monica Telescu, i know i am spelling her name wrong, but she went to Cooper. in first year she did a project based on Einstein On The Beach. it was then i knew architecture could be better...
many women i have come to know seem to lack that self confidence that she had. i want to work with women that challenge preconceived notions, that attack long held bullshit belief systems, that say fuck convention, and say fuck you to my face. i can't build museum quality models and don't care if the opposite does either.
just don't cow tow to the man.
i am sensitive and nurturing and probably should have been a nurse...
wha? your not a nurse?
i have similar experience to you betadine, but to be fair it is about the same for men. i think i have met only one or two really amazing guys at school or through work. some people stand out. most don't. don matter, male or female...
vado action figure
If there is any influential factor, I'd place class as the natural advantage/disadvantage. Gender? Ha ha. No. Men and women and those persons who fall between the binary can all contribute.
Inspired by DCA, here's baby namby girl venturing into phallic symbolism.
is he wearing a codpiece?
good call, nambypambics.
Why do I keep thinking that the question would have been more relevant before Zaha became the big cheese?
Probably.
99 % of the world's women are beautiful, the remaining 1 % were in my college
i thought rationalist was a guy till now!!!
as DCA said "I once heard that women can see something like 1,000 colors, whereas men can see something like 100 colors."
women are excellent in choosing color & combination
i've worked with girls in studio before.
girls are less stubborn than guys, so it's much easier to share idea.
i've worked with stubborn guys before (i've heard i was stubborn, but they were worse), and it wasn't that pleasant
however, girls take argument, criticizm more personally, so you can't really do "argue now, forget it later" a.k.a bitching at your group members
in a group project, i bought a material for group, and i requested one girl to pay me $8, and she was complaining to her friend that i am so cheap.
liberty bell's infatuation with cabinetry...perversely 'feminine'?
men are inferior. men are explicit where there is no need to be and many more men are destroying the planet. even knowledge is pee marked. but...
liberty bell's infatuation with cabinetry...perversely 'feminine'?
men are inferior. men are explicit where there is no need to be and many more men are destroying the planet. even knowledge is pee marked. but...
The final word on gender and architecture:
Women are better at interior spaces because we are "entered" whereas men erect buildings because they "enter".
And if you believe that I'll sell you the Brooklyn Bridge too.
Lots of good stuff here, and lots of silly stuff too, and ultimately it is all personal experience and non-scientific (except maybe that thing about color - cool).
namby probably has it closest - class and education are bigger determinants than gender.
kyll, your comment was well-stated as always. There are genders of all types who seem comfortable in their skin and use it to everyone's advantage. Then there are assholes who do the opposite, again, of both genders.
Young women in the field need to remind themselves to be assertive but not aggressive when they are dealing with some of the aspects of this profession that are more "male" such as construction site visits. It gets way easier as one gets older, both because age brings experience and thus confidence, and because it brings respect.
As to your original post, rationalist, we can all recall stories of childhood that we can later point to as indicators of our life choices. I always made little houses in the weeds in our backyard for my toys - typically a loft-like setup, with open living and kitchen areas and a more seclduded bedroom. Once I got the little house set up I was never that interested in actually playing with it - I just liked the planning and implementation part. So there ya go - destined to be an architect.
noctilucent, I'm only infatuated with cabinetry right now because that's what I'm mainly dealing with, since kitchen renovations make up a huge portion of my current work. When I was responsible for exterior wall sections on a dormitory I was obsessed with water infiltration, fireproofing, and steel beam section dimensions. I enjoy whatever the profession throws me.
And Strawbeary is right - it is fun and sometimes useful as an analytic device to claim stereotypes re: gender, but those stereotypes need to be dropped immediately when dealing with an actual human in real life.
i think treekiller was being facetious, kyll.
when lb pulls up in the ranchero all the brads on the website feel inferior...
what a great way to disarm the readers...start with sex
. mommies rule!!
That was my tactic, dammson. Female wiles?
lb- I only pointed to that because the woman I was arguing with claimed that women don't build for play as kids, which I thought was just stupid. I couldn't believe someone really thought there was such a strict gender divide in the toys that I always considered uni-sex. Sure, Barbies and GIJoes were gender oriented, but LEGOS?!
Strawbeary...
"I actually agree, that in general, women AREN'T as naturally inclined to do well at math, physics, bullshit, etc. Women are, in general, better at other things that make good architects like communication, compassion, intuition, multi-tasking, and aesthetics/color. "
was this a joke? i know that you said that it can be dropped for
individual instances...but at the very least what makes a woman better
at multi-tasking? intuition? aesthetics?
i can understand the compassion and communication part...women are
far more involved during conversations generally...the idea of touch
and eye contact etc.
i am interested in the idea of spacial abilities and such..and if it's
gender related. i know that personally i have always had an ability
to 'see' a space before it's built (as i'm sure most/many architects
can).
also is saying that men are better at physics/math any better/worse
stereotyping than saying men are better architects? didn't the
president? of harvard get fired for saying virtually the same thing.
i'm also interested in finding out the scientific analysis that went
into determining that men are better bull-shitters...
I'll respond later. Right now the guys and I are busy smoking cigars and slapping chick-architect fannies.
What's interesting to me is girls probably all had both female AND male dolls - how else would we have been able to simulate kissing etc. with them? - whereas I imagine very, very few boys ever had a female doll or action figure. Princess Leah, perhaps.
Wait, I know this one...or should I not count the inflatable ones?
Once on long ago (3-4 months) while interviewing with a nightmare of a firm, I was told of these natural disadvantages....
He called them babies, but I guess that would be the case for all professions. In so many words, he said, 'I'd love for you to come and work for me... I just hope your stay here will be longer than 2-3 years, seeing that you are in your prime years for having children.'
EK!
On the flip side... Growing up in the desert, I spent a lot of time playing in the dirt making tunnels under the concrete sidewalk and building stuff out of clay (for my barbies of course).
this is a really lame discussion...the world is made up of individuals and gender is but a small peice of the melange that constitutes each of us. in fact, i'm somewhat dismayed that we're only viewing the gender issue in either/or terms as their are (an admittedly small but hardly irrelevant) number of people born with both male & female physical attributes. it's disappointing that these individuals while physically embodying the gray area that makes up most of our emotional & mental composition are shamefully relegated to the fringes of society.
incidently, when voting today (which i admit to doing sheepishly since i'm an advocate of not voting) i tended to choose women when faced with a choice that i otherwise knew nothing about...just figured that there were already to men running things
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