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I have recently been involved in the design of a clothing store located in a shopping mall. I didn't think I would need an architect's stamp/signature, but according to the city I do and now Im kind of stuck. I have the drawings completed, but I need an architect to sign off on them. What's the best way going about this? and how much can I expect to pay? furthermore, does anyone in the detroit area know of an architect I can go to?

The design includes some free standing partition walls that are 8'-0" in height but do not connect into the ceiling.

Thanks for your thoughts

 
Sep 21, 06 8:15 pm
some person

Be careful in your approach: most (good) architects won't take kindly to you wanting to "buy" their stamp and signature. However, if you work to engage them in the review of the project and are open to their suggestions, you will probably have a better experience.

I'm not familiar with the jurisdictional practices of Detroit, but I would guess an architect is necessary to confirm the Life Safety of the project (i.e. egress in the event of a fire) and other code-required elements. There are probably other reasons - it would probably be in your best interest to find out the specific reasons from the governing body who told you to get an architect.

Perhaps you would want to pay the architect on an hourly basis to review your plans; if he/she finds anything that you need to change, you could work out a fixed fee for making those changes.

Depending on the size of your project, a mid-sized firm (15-30 people) may be the best route. Make sure they are commercial architects, not residential architects. A larger firm may not be willing to take on a project that will only require a few days or weeks to complete.

Good luck.

Sep 21, 06 9:03 pm  · 
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Aluminate

Whether or not an "architect of record" can stamp another designer's drawings without having been directly involved in supervising the creation of the drawings is something that varies from state to state. Check your state board's website and/or call the board to ask about the state's policies on "plan stamping".
In some states it is enough for the architect of record to carefully review the drawings, check code issues and calculations, etc.. In others the architect would be required to also provide a detailed letter documenting what was reviewed and what the findings were. And in still others the architect would essentially be expected to systematically re-draw the set.
Naturally these variations in requirements tend to affect the going rates for these services in various states.

Sep 21, 06 9:16 pm  · 
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some person

Well said, Aluminate.

Sep 21, 06 9:19 pm  · 
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vado retro

an engineer can also stamp your drawings in michiganistan.

Sep 21, 06 10:21 pm  · 
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wurdan freo

Ha Ha! - Nelson Muntz

Maybe you should have asked that question before you started. I wonder what other questions you forgot to ask.

Sep 22, 06 5:53 pm  · 
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trace™

Should be no problem finding someone to stamp them.

Sep 23, 06 9:43 am  · 
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If this is a freelance project, find a project manager at your normal job who seems friendly and see if they would be willing. That's usually how it's done in CA, anyway.

Sep 23, 06 12:45 pm  · 
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Gloominati

I'm not in Michigan so can't speak to what exactly is required there. But we have done some similar projects - mostly designers who do retail chains approaching us about reviewing and stamping sets for local projects. For the most part we're studying the drawings and specs for life safety issues and state-specific code and accessibility issues. Some state accessibility amendments here are more restrictive than ADA so out-of-state designers in particular often undersize restrooms and door clearances, fail to provide appropriate accessible transaction counter space, and miss other accessibility hot buttons, so some changes are often required on the drawings. Sometimes designers don't seem to have checked plumbing counts, fire ratings of finishes and assemblies, egress issues, etc.. (These are probably exactly the reasons local code officials often choose to require review by someone licensed, even if the state code does not strictly require a stamp for the size/type project involved.)
If we have to make the noted changes to the drawings ourselves then we bill that as an additional service, so usually the designers want to make the changes themselves and then we review the set again to see that it's now in compliance.
Our state says we must submit a written report to accompany the drawings if we weren't involved in the preparation of them. So our fee for the review and the report has to be based on the size/complexity of the project, but also on our feel for how comprehensive the drawings are and how inexperienced the designer. If we're seeing things right off the bat like that the designer hasn't accounted for finished thicknesses of materials in clearances, or hasn't detailed how to brace freestanding partitions and specified appropriate hardware for that, or isn't providing enough or accurate dimensional information, specifications, details, etc. then we know that we're going to be looking at taking the time to convey all of the changes to the designer, coordinating revised drawings, reviewing revised drawings, etc. If we're having to do calculations (for things like freestanding partitions) rather than just check them, then that's also going to cost more.
The fees to review, report on, and stamp the set could be anywhere from $700 if it's going to take less than a day's work, or up to 5 or 6 times that if the project is large and complex and/or under-designed and will require a "back to the drawing board" approach.
All of that being said, I've heard of firms out there who charge a flat $400 to plan stamp pretty much anything.

Sep 23, 06 5:14 pm  · 
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§5582 Aiding Unlawful Practice

The fact that the holder of a license has aided or abetted in the practice of architecture
any person not authorized to practice architecture under the provisions of this chapter,
constitutes a ground for disciplinary action.

§ 5582.1 Signing Other’s Plans or Instruments; Permitting Misuse of Name
(a) The fact that the holder of a license has affixed his or her signature to plans,
drawings, specifications, or other instruments of service which have not been
prepared by him or her, or under his or her responsible control, constitutes a
ground for disciplinary action.
(b) The fact that the holder of a license has permitted his or her name to be used for
the purpose of assisting any person to evade the provisions of this chapter constitutes a ground for disciplinary action.

-seems like hard to proof for not so dengerous projects...




Sep 23, 06 6:28 pm  · 
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that was from california architect's practice act.

Sep 23, 06 6:29 pm  · 
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treekiller

only if you are an AIA member...

Sep 23, 06 6:31 pm  · 
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Janosh

^ ?

Sep 23, 06 6:40 pm  · 
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Janosh

Here's the excerpt from the Michigan regulations:

Sec. 2008.

(1) A plan, plat, drawing, map, and the title sheet of specifications, an addendum, bulletin, or report or, if a bound copy is submitted, the index sheets of a plan, specification, or report, if prepared by a licensee and required to be submitted to a governmental agency for approval or record, shall carry the embossed or printed seal of the person in responsible charge.

(2) If the overlapping of the professions of architecture and engineering is involved in a project, a licensed architect or licensed professional engineer who seals the plans, drawings, specifications, and reports may perform services in the field of the other practice if the services are incidental to the architectural or engineering project as a whole.

(3) A licensee shall not seal a plan, drawing, map, plat, report, specification, or other document not prepared by the licensee or under supervision of the licensee as the person in responsible charge.

But whatever... it's not mhopkins problem if s/he can get someone else to assume the liability.

Sep 23, 06 6:50 pm  · 
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Gloominati

#3 means that the architect of record would have to create a new drawing set, under his supervision. That would presumably be more expensive than what we usually do in our state, as described above. I think in that case you'd have to figure that you'll also be charged the hours it will take for the arch. of record to do a new CAD set.

Sep 23, 06 8:23 pm  · 
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Gloominati

and I don't understand treekiller's comment about the AIA. The states' laws - for instance the CA Practice Act - have nothing to do with the AIA.

Sep 23, 06 8:25 pm  · 
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treekiller

I thought Orhan's citation was from the AIA code of conduct, not CA state regs...

each state has variation- but how do 'architects of record' stamp the drawings unless they created the cd set???

The key words is 'prepare' and 'supervise' - does michigastan have legal defs and thresholds to define if a project is created with 'supervision' of a licensed arch???

the drawing review described by formallyunknown seems to fit my understanding of supervision, as those steps are the same if you drew the project from scratch or were stamping someone elses....

Sep 23, 06 8:43 pm  · 
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snooker

You might just want to find a Public Notary to seal and sign your drawings. Seems like these days with the fray of people out there
practicing architecture, most find little value in an architectural seal and signature. It was but about a month ago I saw a major article in a regional weekly paper about a drafting service who prepares construction documents for a number of architectural firms. What caught my eye was two things. He had just completed a project which was funded by the State, and second is an associate member of the AIA. Even though the state has verbage very similar to what I see posted here about how an architect has to be associated with a project
before they can seal and sign documents. It has become apparent no one gives a damn! I also get these letters for drafting service companies wanting to assist with my project and I always have to wonder how can these places exist with state laws in place.

Sep 24, 06 2:12 pm  · 
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archie

Find a Michigan firm that does lots of retail. Chances are they sometimes are doing projects in other states for national chains, and have the same problem in those states. so they will be sympathetic. Just a warning, in some locals, you also need full engineering drawings, even for a store in an interior of a mall, if you are moving plumbing, HVAC, or electrical devices. That means if you are adding new lighting, for example, you might need an electrical engineer to do calculations based on new energy codes, do a drawing, and stamp the drawings. Keep in mind that you probably have to upgrade to meet ADA, including cash stands. Some juridictions require you to shwo all fixturing on the plans. Keep in mind that officials interpret the new code in all kinds of ways when it comes to having your rear exit thru the stock room, most make you have a separate hallway. If you can give the architect your cad files, they can usually put them on their title block, review them, make any code changes (assuming minimal), and add what ever standard stuff they usually put on retail drawings for around $1000 to $2000. Consider it a good thing to have someone reviwe your drawings and make sure they meet code.

Sep 24, 06 3:16 pm  · 
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Janosh

Just a note - when we use an architect of record, they are responsible for doing the CDs, City Submittal sets, and CA. I think that is the above-board way of having someone else stamp the drawings.

Sep 24, 06 3:25 pm  · 
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