I graduated almost a month ago and so far I haven't had any luck finding a job/internship. I'll all comes down to either a) don't have enough experience; or b) I don't have a car (to get to the jobs in suburbia.
I graduated with a 3.60 GPA; I got one of the best grades/crits in my last studio, and I won an honorable mention in the last design awards. But none of this seems to matter, only that I know CAD seems to matter.
Am I just being whinny about not having a job a month after? Or should I just apply for grad school and look for internships when I'm in school again?
i hear that...... i just turned 30 and you would think that me being a professional model builder/licensed builder/some arch office experience/design-build experience/furniture/interiors/shop manager....etc........ and i can't find a job because of some bullshyt.....
makes me think that the industry just want's robots and and creators...
i was gonna go to grad school and got accpeted already but i figured why spend 50k plus if i'll be in the same boat when i get out......
my sister works for the post office and she makes 26 bucks an hour plus full benefits/vac/overtime/etc.......
makes u wonder about the standards of the field and how firms want highly experienced or cadd monkeys...... no middle ground at all.....
Sometimes if you have trouble finding a summer intern position right after graduation you'll have better luck around August or September as all the summer help starts to move back to school. Keep trying. Also try calling or emailing the places that rejected you in May or June a little later in the summer to let them know you're still looking and are available for the fall.
I wouldn't recommend going back to school as a way of dealing with the difficulty of finding a first job. You still need to find that first job - whether now or a few years from now.
I don't think it is the case that firms only want robots and no creators. But with somebody brand new with no experience we are looking for some basic skills - because you have to "earn your keep" while you learn. Also, look at the standard phases of service for most firms - only about 10% to 20% of the typical project schedule and budget is allocated to the early design phases while 60% to 75% is usually allocated for the construction document phase. We don't need "robots" but we need people who can learn to do the less glamorous parts of the project - the detailing, spec writing, door scheduling, etc. - as well and professionally as they can do the type of schematic design that they learned in school.
The car issue seems like the biggest potential limiting factor. If you're in a larger city then it should be fine - just keep looking. But if realistically you're going to end up having to find something in a smaller city or suburb then most firms will require a car. And even if they don't require it, it may limit what your role will be if you can't go to visit clients and to job sites. If you work in the suburbs without a car (unless the firm is big enough to have company cars) you may be limiting yourself to a production role for now.
I hear you- I sent out 14 resumes and heard back from 1. It would be nice to receive a rejection letter or something so I can move on.
I am looking at LA, SF, Portland, and Seattle. I was hoping to plan a huge tour of the west coast with interviews at each stop. So far it just looks like SF. This is more frustrating then I thought it would be.
I'm in Milwaukee. I've looked at most of the large firms in the city, and I'm also searching in Chicago; but even in Chi-town all I find is BS in the burbs (I say BS because I DID NOT spend 4 years in college to make a KFC, and that's a lot of the work the firms I've seen in the Chicago burbs are doing).
I hear you- I sent out 14 resumes and heard back from 1. It would be nice to receive a rejection letter or something so I can move on.
Amen, I have heard back from one of the larger firms in the city, but it seems most firms don't eve have the courticy of seending you a rejection letter.
I'm in Milwaukee. I've looked at most of the large firms in the city, and I'm also searching in Chicago; but even in Chi-town all I find is BS in the burbs (I say BS because I DID NOT spend 4 years in college to make a KFC, and that's a lot of the work the firms I've seen in the Chicago burbs are doing).
I hear you- I sent out 14 resumes and heard back from 1. It would be nice to receive a rejection letter or something so I can move on.
Amen, I have heard back from one of the larger firms in the city, but it seems most firms don't eve have the courticy of seending you a rejection letter.
for some reason i get a twisted satisfaction out of seeing a recent graduate go through a ego/reality check. is it just me? not that i wish you misfortune cuervo, quite the contrary. i just think this ego check will make you a better architect...if you choose to see it that way.
you may have to work on a few KFC's before you can work on the projects you would like to. Your architectural education does not end with school, it really just begins...
When I was fresh out of school I too was offended at not getting rejection letters from each and every firm where I had sent a resume. Now that I've been out in the market for a while, I've come not to expect them. Honestly, unless someone has either words of encouragement or constructive criticism to address directly to me, I'd rather skip getting the typical "we'll keep your resume on file" form letter.
If you look at things from a firm's perspective, an office may be getting tens or even hundreds of unsolicited resumes weekly, especially this time of year, for positions from summer intern all the way up to principal. Even to send out a basic form letter in response to all those resumes would take a mimimum of a few hours per week of employee time. I can't blame a firm for not wanting to take an employee away from billable work just to crank out form letters, especially if the firm isn't currently hiring or advertising open positions.
congratulations, you are now standing at the threshold of one of the many "weeding out" stages of the architect's career. right now your gpa, your honorable mentions, even your college degree (with or without a fancy frame) mean very little. in fact, probably the only thing that does matter is your desire to stick it out and become an architect. if your goal is to become an architect then you have to get a job. and in a competitive market with other young recent grads looking for work then you're going to have to accept the fact that you might be working on kfc's if that will get your foot in the door.
otherwise, you might want to consider doing something different with your life. maybe a good paying job...maybe law school...maybe peace corp or army...whatever
oh...and by the way, this is by no mean the last such threshold that you will need to cross. you will then have to get into graduate school, finish it, get another job (this time paying a decent wage since you can't live off you parents forever), get through idp, pass the are, muster up the courage to start you own firm and then if you can keep that afloat for five years or so...well then you might finally feel comfortable enough to call yourself an architect and turn down fried chicken jobs.
as for the immediate future, i would consider taking the summer off. now that it's june, we're about to hit the summer holiday/vacation season which means that inevitably many of the decision makers in offices will be out of their offices. it's somewhat unfortunate that schools let their graduates out at the begining of summer because that is often not the best time to be looking for a job. over the years, i've noticed that early autumn (sept-oct) and just after the new year (jan) tend to be the best times to job search.
We didn't send rejection letters to the people we haven't hired yet for a round of interviews that we did about 5 weeks ago (for both summer and fulltime long-term employees.) That's because we may still want to add more people. We are waiting to see what pans out with a few projects that are currently "on hold" and with some larger projects for which we're shortlisted.
I understand the impatience of applicants, and that their practical financial concerns may force them to find other situations before we might be able to say for sure if we'll be needing them.
But I don't want to send rejection letters to applicants unless we have definately decided to reject them. Many candidates end up on our "wish list" of people we'd love to bring on if our projects pan out. (Keep in mind that we're just as impatient to hear from all those clients and committees out there who are currently considering us as you are to hear from the firms.) We do tell candidates who contact us for an update that we have not made a decision yet, that we'll let them know when we do, and that we understand that they may not be able to just sit and wait.
Don't assume that firms have rejected you and don't have the courtesy to tell you so. Contact them to let them know you're still interested and see if you can get an update on the status of their search.
another point: a month is not a long time at all for a job search. for the job seeker a month may seem like an eternity, but to the office worker a month is not a long time. i've had papers sitting on my desk for a month that i've been meaning to get around to looking at but either haven't had time or haven't felt like dealing with. exactly the same thing happens with resumes. employers rarely as eager to hire someone as you are to be hired. i've sent out resumes and not gotten called back until 2 or 3 months later. you just have to be patient.
The problem or challenge is that all the senior staff in offices want to do the design and wont let juniors do it. So, as a junior you are stuck drawing up the designs the seniors create. I had and interview at one office (staff of 9) where they told me at the interview that the owner does all the design and everyone else just facilitates the design. BUNK! So, until you the some grey hairs your CAD, PM and construction documentation skill will get you in the door. No one will care about your design glories from school. Sorry, but that is the truth. Senior ARchitects that have been doing CAD for twenty years prior to finally designing something are going to want to keep the reigns on the design work. The only way you can fast track getting into design is to open your own biz. You will be a monkey for a while.
and MAC, that all depends on where you work. also, what you describe is prevailant, but it has many permutations...
many of the principal figures in the multi-office corporate firm that I work at are primarily concerned with business and marketing...the designers are typically in the mid-range of experience. This set up shrinks the distance between an entry level intern and design opportunity...just another perspective...
I don't agree that an entry level employee has to be a monkey. You may not be positioned for your ideal job right outta school, but it's possible to find a situation where there is opportunity.
1. Currently, on the AIA.org career center, there are a grand total of 37 job ads for entry level Intern Architects ... none of those jobs are in Milwaukee.
2. Currently, on the AIA.org career center, there are 789 job ads for mid-level to experienced Archtects and Project Managers.
3. Those two numbers indicate what the REAL hiring challenges are in this profession right now ... i.e. finding enough people who actually know how to do something productive and who can work reasonably independently.
CuervoMuerto -- yes, I do think you are being whinny. As a principal in my firm, I have to say that you're not remotely the center of my universe right now. I'm not having any trouble finding good quality intern level talent. I am having LOTS of trouble finding experience professionals who can manage and direct those interns.
While I think it would be nice to answer promptly every unsolicited resume that crosses my desk each week (and, just for the record, that's about 50 / week right now) it's really not possible to do that as quickly as we might like. At our firm, we do try to acknowledge receipt of all resumes (if we have an e-mail address) but it sometimes takes weeks before we actually have a chance to assess the credentials carefully and evalutate the hiring potential in each situation.
The easier you make it for us to assess your qualifications and communicate with you, the more likely you are to receive a response from us. But, if you send us a garbled resume file, and 15 separate JPG attachments in 4 separate e-mails that we have to struggle to manage, I'm pretty sure you're not going to get the attention you think you deserve.
While this may seem harsh, the profession does not owe you a living. You have to make a case for why someone would want to pay you a salary ... you have to put yourself in a position where you are seen to be cooperative and adaptable to the firm's needs (not the othere way around) ... what can you do to support the efforts of the firm ?
I get resumes in here every single day from 4-year degree holders, pleading with me to give them work. What they don't ever seem to grasp is the obvious reluctance on our part to invest heavy amounts of time and training in a candidate who CLEARLY is going to leave us to return to grad-school ... rather than put myself in that situation, I'm going to just keep hiring co-op students, where I at least know what the potential is before bringing them on board.
I can't tell you the number resumes I receive each month where the stated objective of the candidate goes something like "to have an enjoyable experience designing great buildings" ... come on folks ... let's get real here ... let's show some minor awareness of what the role of an intern architect really is ... we're going to spend a lot of time teaching you what the schools fail to teach ... somewhere, you're going to have to tell me what we're going to get out of the deal if we hire you ?
I recently graduated and have some advice. I was similarly frustrated by my complete inability to find a job and was sending out/emailing resume after resume after resume.
There are three succesful ways to go about it.
(1) Call up firms (DO NOT I REPEAT DO NOT WRITE) that you are interested in and ask them if they are looking for someone. Have 4-5 well presented work samples ready to email (PDF 8.5x11) and your resume. A quick cover letter stroking their back helps.
(2) Ask your profs if they know anyone who is looking for someone. Don't ask them if they are looking for someone because its better to give them the opportunity to ask you to work for them. (Makes it less awkward tahn if you staight out ask them for a job).
(3) Ask your archi-friends if they know of anyone looking.
The key is just getting in the loop. Your first job will probably blow, but everyone's does. And, you only need to stick it out for 6 months if it sucks. Afterwards, its a breeze (well, sort of). Just get some experience ASAP. That's what I found its all about.
I recently graduated and have some advice. I was similarly frustrated by my complete inability to find a job and was sending out/emailing resume after resume after resume.
There are three succesful ways to go about it.
(1) Call up firms (DO NOT I REPEAT DO NOT WRITE) that you are interested in and ask them if they are looking for someone. Have 4-5 well presented work samples ready to email (PDF 8.5x11) and your resume. A quick cover letter stroking their back helps.
(2) Ask your profs if they know anyone who is looking for someone. Don't ask them if they are looking for someone because its better to give them the opportunity to ask you to work for them. (Makes it less awkward tahn if you staight out ask them for a job).
(3) Ask your archi-friends if they know of anyone looking.
The key is just getting in the loop. Your first job will probably blow, but everyone's does. And, you only need to stick it out for 6 months if it sucks. Afterwards, its a breeze (well, sort of). Just get some experience ASAP. That's what I found its all about.
i'm moving to cali (l.a./santa monica/etc area) soon and would like to get a team that wants to do some cool work and has connections.... i'm leaving detroit for a reason and want to design/build in cali....but it might take a short time for me to get my builders license and find an architect to team up with...... i'm serious.... www.237am.com
"While this may seem harsh, the profession does not owe you a living. You have to make a case for why someone would want to pay you a salary ... you have to put yourself in a position where you are seen to be cooperative and adaptable to the firm's needs (not the othere way around) ... what can you do to support the efforts of the firm ?"
Appreciate the honesty, comb, but it sounds like you've lost some perspective. No one is entitled to a "living" from the profession, sure, but we all have to start somewhere. Unfortunately, we all tend to start at about the same place (ZERO years experience), and it usually gets messier from there thanks to things like pre-professional degrees and varying state licensure requirements. You know all about that because you've gone through it.
A lot of us have unrealistic expectations upon graduation, but that doesn't mean that we aren't also eager to learn. And "support the efforts of the firm"? THAT'S WHAT INTERNS DO! We produce all day long. If you want to keep us around, maybe you could pay us well and maybe you could challenge us with something other than overcoming poor management. I'm no business genius, but I do know that eventually, with time, 0 yr. interns will turn into 5 yr. PMs. If you're having an even harder time finding people with that level of experience, say, 5 years from now, then I think you'll understand what the problem might be.
"1. Currently, on the AIA.org career center, there are a grand total of 37 job ads for entry level Intern Architects ... none of those jobs are in Milwaukee.
2. Currently, on the AIA.org career center, there are 789 job ads for mid-level to experienced Archtects and Project Managers."
One plausible reason is that the profession lost quite a few good men during the recession to other better paying jobs. Therefore, with the new boom, there is just not sufficient project architects out there to fill all the jobs.
I appreciate the replies, specially comb and tiger77. While I know I'm being unrealistic, it's just frustuating to look for suposedly entry level jobs and then see that you don't have enogth expirience.
otherwise, you might want to consider doing something different with your life. maybe a good paying job...maybe law school...maybe peace corp or army...whatever
Nooooo. I'll keep looking. I couldn't do law school, I would go intpo grafic design or set design instead.
CuervoMuerto: Did you go to Interview Day? (I assume they still have it at UWM). How did it go? Are there firms that you wish you had interviewed with? Did any of your friends get jobs as a result of that day?
It's been said multiple times in this forum - the community of Milwaukee architects is strongly tied to UWM. Certainly you must be able to work your academic contacts to your advantage. Did you have any adjuncts as critics?
From what I can gather, the architectural market in Milwaukee is strong, and two of the largest firms have opened offices in Madison.
Good luck, and please feel free to email me if you have questions about specific firms.
Job hunting can be tough... I'll tell you the way I approached it: first, I never emailed. Always sent a hard copy with some good work samples attached, and a custom cover letter. Invest the time and money to make your applications count, spend enough time presenting yourself well before you send out, layout and presentation, etc. If it takes you 3 weeks working every day to perfect your resume and work sample package that you will send, do it. And print it out nicely, then sending out will be easy, you can send a couple a day, with a well thought out cover letter that is customized for each firm.
The reason I think a hard copy is better: it shows that you invested the time, money and effort to apply to their office, and its something tangible on hand, more difficult to throw in the garbage pail. Also, if you invest this energy in it, you will probably be a bit more selective in who you send to, just send to firms you would want to work for. If you don't hear from them after a while, you can always contact them and follow up.
think of it another way: if you are short on experience, your greatest asset is your dedication, talent, and enthusiasm, eagerness to grow with their company... that and maybe any computer skills you might have. thats the only edge you might be able to sell as a fresh graduate... one thing that might make you competitive with other candidates with more experience: people might want to hire you if you're enthusiastic, but they're almost guarenteed to not want to hire you if you're not at all interested in what they do... I dunno, thats my 2 cents, but I'm quite new myself.
On the other hand, you can learn something from any job, designing a KFC is something... You don't have to design KFC's forever, everything is a step up.
a good thing is, if you don't have experience, and what worked for me, is to be very succinct and find out what each firm you apply to does. i.e. Fashion what their "charecter" is in your cover letter you write to them. If they do renovations, express that you're willing to do detail and interior elevations, if they're a big firm, express that you have a customer sevice aplitude since they work with many people from all over. But understand that, it's not so much a change of identity as you shop around, but an effort to improve your well roundedness.
I would also expand my options with the type of design firms I'm applying to. In one sense, all design involves similar concepts and ideas, but at different scales.
I would look into jobs/internships with graphic design firms, urban design firms, fabricators, furniture designers and the like.
if it is a creative design position you want then you must be creative about your application. a good example i have seen: a candidate made a portfolio/resume from a single piece of paper that unfolded from a square, revelaing information about himself and examples of his work after each unfold. it probably cost no more than a few bucks to make, but you could tell he spent some time on it. it was so effective that 6 of us crowded around it to discuss it. he got an offer . don't just send a resume with some stats on it. those get thrown away. make an object/package that will make employer remember you and feel guilty about throwing away, even if it means investing some time and money on it. i don't know where to find the link, but one of my old instructors made this cool marketing kit that he sent to potential clients. it involved some clever packaing and medical rubber band type stuff. don't have an image, but arch record did an article about it. the firm is plexus r+d
if applicants spend so much time and money making good portfolios for grad school, why not make the same investment for job applications?
sure, u can go all out and make some hot shyt... but really most of the time portfolios can be overdone......
trying to market myself in the areas that i do, i prolly spent over 5-6000 over the past 3 years or so.... sure, that might not be alot for a firm but for a 1 man shop.... that's a good amount of change.....
u also have to figure out what sets u aside from the rest..... i'm sure firms gets the typical portfolio's in box with wood/metal details/etc.... that went out in the late 90's.....
look at it this way, life is a hustle.... if you don't try to get it, you won't get it.........
I don't agree that you should spend a huge amount of time and money on your portfolio for this first job. At this point, with no experience, your portfolio is not a very important factor in the eyes of most employers. Neither are your GPA or academic design successes. In fact, within a year or two I'd expect that all or most of your academic work will be phased out of the portfolio that you use to apply for employment. (Your portfolio for applying to grad school is a whole other story...)
What's important right now is that you have some skills and a good attitude, and are willing to show up, do what's needed even when it isn't very glamorous, learn about what the firm does and how to do it, etc. and become thoroughly familiar and productive in typical firm procedures.
Once you have even 1 year of experience in a firm - ANY FIRM - you'll be in a better position to market yourself as a designer and it will be easier to target the specific types of firms that you're interested in. That year of experience is like your ticket through the door of a lot of firms.
Don't get too worried that 1 year in a run-of-the-mill firm will somehow take you out of the running for better opportunities later. A lot of interns seem to worry that if their first job isn't with a "starchitect" they've somehow ruined their future potential to work for good firms. In reality the more well-known firms are able to be all the more selective in their hiring and often want to see some professional experience first.
I started out in a small, no-name firm. It didn't hurt my or my coworkers' abilities to get interviews and offers at bigshot firms later. I had a titled Designer role with a large, well-known firm within about two years of graduation.
I agree with others here who have pointed out that in many firms designers tend to be mid-level employees, not necessarily principals. But it's very unlikely that a firm will put someone fresh out of school, with no experience at all, into a role in which the only thing they do is design.
Lots of firms will put you in a role in which you collaborate as part of a team on the design phases of projects. Some will give you smaller projects to attack on your own - hopefully with some amount of supervision at first! Some will give you elements of larger projects as your own "design territory" to see what you can do. That sometimes means starting with floor patterns or paneling or even the dreaded bathroom design, but usually assumes progressively better assignments. But you've got to expect that you'll be doing a lot of construction documents at first too - and you really shouldn't be too unhappy about it because it's one of the best ways to learn to detail projects. (It's really very hard to design beyond architecture-school-level conceptual and diagrammatic thinking until you have a strong grasp of construction issues and how to put things together.)
Some firms will also expect you to spend some of your time on much more mundane day-to-day office tasks. In a small firm you may be taking your turn filing, cleaning, and even answering phones. If you rule out all firms in which this stuff is part of the job description you'll be narrowing your options considerably.
I have to advise that you take a job - ANY JOB - as soon as you can get it, even if it means detaling KFC's. Stick it out for a year. Then re-assess your options. You'll be in a much better position at that point to apply to firms that interest you more.
Remember that architecture has a very long, slow learning curve. A lot of people don't really hit their peak of talent and knowledge/ability until their 40s - 50s. Architecture school is just the very first step that qualifies you to be an intern, then eventually get licensed, maybe go out on your own, etc. But right now just think of it as getting accepted to phase 2 of your education. Find someplace that will take you. If it doesn't turn out to be your dream job (and trust me, even if it looks like your dream job today it's unlikely that it will stay that way) then "transfer" to a better job in a year or so.
i think the point was that cuervo didn't just want to 'settle' for a first job. if you are willing to settle on anything for your first job, then agreed, portfolio and gpa mean nothing. it's really all networking, but if you want that ideal design job, go for it.
i kind of just settled for my first job bc it was the only offer i got at the time (i was interviewing right when the iraq war started). if i was coming out of school now, i'd be shooting for the job i really wanted. and i don't buy the slow learning curve, you won't peak until you're 50 bs. i refuse to believe it. i know many talented (and busy) architects under 35 who have their own firm. and if you were really good, then your talent never "peaks". i guess it's a matter of which you choose to be.
kind a going against what i said earlier about kfc, but i'm still reflecting on it myself.
But Cuervo has some conflicting things going on.
He's (or she's) frustrated because he has been looking for a month and is still unemployed.
But he doesn't want to take just any job.
He wants a job in which he'll have a substantial design role.
But often an entry-level person has a better chance of having a more substantial design role if he chooses a smaller and/or less prominent firm. That's no always the case, but I can say that my experience in "star" firms is that mid-level people really clamor for design-input roles, and are often extremely territorial.
When I was more of a "senior intern" in a name-brand firm one of my duties was to be the first line of defense in evaluating resumes, scheduling interviews, etc. (I do that now in my small firm too.) Portfolios do matter, but for entry-level people with no experience most firms are looking more for evidence of skills - a good drawing hand, competent and neat model building, proficiency with CAD and other software, layout skills, etc. There is less emphasis on design ability, design tendencies and "style", etc.. That's not to say that nobody cares at all - certainly academic work will be perused, and it can be the focus of an interview in the absence of other work.
I've never seen any firm that cared about anyone's GPA. I've heard a lot of negative comments about the tendency of new grads to put GPA on their resumes - especially if they're carried out to multiple decimal places. There's so much variation in programs, grade inflation, etc., and studio grading is so subjective, that it's not a good measure of anything. I taught in design programs in which Cuervo's 3.6 would be unattainable, and others in which it would be considered only so-so. Granted Cuervo is interviewing close to where he went to school, so people interviewing him may be intimately familiar with his particular architecture school. But I still think he's emphasizing academic accomplishments too much and should focus on conveying that he's got concrete, immediately useful skills that will benefit the firm.
Personally I would not advise putting a huge time and financial investment into an entry-level portfolio. Of course it should be carefully designed and put together, and well edited. But beyond that, any tricky packaging or other special effects are probably not worth the trouble at this stage....
and as far as the slow learning curve: lots of people have their own firms in their 20s or 30s. (I'm in my 30s and a partner in a small firm.) Still I think it takes longer than that for most of us to really get to where we want to be knowledge-wise... Maybe some people are much better much earlier or at least think they are. I feel competent at this point but certainly not totally "there" yet, and lots of my peers express similar feelings.
Mostly my comments about the learning curve were more in response to Cuervo's impatience to be evaluated primarily on design skill immediately out of school.
But Cuervo has some conflicting things going on.
He's (or she's) frustrated because he has been looking for a month and is still unemployed.
But he doesn't want to take just any job.
He wants a job in which he'll have a substantial design role.
But often an entry-level person has a better chance of having a more substantial design role if he chooses a smaller and/or less prominent firm.
No nessesarily (I'm a he BTW). It's not that I want a substancial design role, it's that I still want to work on things that I like. I know I'm an idealistic young punk; but I just don't want to be making WalMart floor plans, and things of that nature. I know eventuaally I'm going to have to suck it up and do it, but that dosen't mean I'm going to like it.
I do want a to work at a smaller firm, but that's because I want to feel like I'm part of a group, and not just another disposable cog in a factory. Hell my dream job rigth now would be the model maker/cad/photohsop/slave at a small firm.
Mostly my comments about the learning curve were more in response to Cuervo's impatience to be evaluated primarily on design skill immediately out of school.
I know I'm being a bitch, and I apologize for that. I started this tread mostly as a rant; but you guys have given some valuable imput, so I thank you for that.
Anyway on Tuesday I'm goign to start my new (temporary) contruction job working under UWM's shop guy. I've wanted have some construction expirience for a while now anyway, and it pays more that the "normal" job I was going to get to pay the bills so I'm happy. After that the architecture search continues.
Yes sir/ma'am. I know I've met you here before and that I know you in real life. But who are ya really? lol
Anyway on a related note; the construction fell througth because of lack of funds/codes stuff (I guess I'm really learning from the real world now). But I just got a call back from a firm today. So it all balances itself out.
with that good bit of news, i want all youse students to take notes:
1. get your first summer architecture job after your first year in school.
2. do ANYTHING. just get that first job. take out the trash. file. have NO expectation that you will even be allowed to breathe the word "design" unless perhaps you're filing "design development" documents in the office flat file. don't be discriminating except, you know, don't work for firms that eat human flesh or big things like that.
3. make it one whole summer.
4. then, either go back the next summer...or get another job.
5. repeat 3 and 4 until you graduate.
*btw, cuervo, you didn't say (or i forgot) how much experience you had and i'm not assuming you had some or none, these are just guidelines.
it's funny that many premiated graduates have never punched a clock in an architecture firm prior to graduation, and have no idea what it's like in, yes, the real world.
they have no idea that they have to keep track of their time for each task they do...and may have to justify the 22 hours they spent fine-tuning the colors in a rendering to someone with authority.
they have no idea that design -- pure "design" as practiced in school -- is like 1% of the building process.
they have very out-of-touch expectations as to what working in a firm should be. and have never seen the professional hierarchy up close.
i mean, the cardiologist didn't come out of medical school being the lead on the heart transplants, did s/he? no matter how many s/he had simulated in school.
I think it's good to come out of school with high expectations and want to work on good design, to be a small part of a team that is interested in good design. That being said, I think its good to keep an open mind.
First, don't limit yourself to small firms. There are some really good larger offices that also do good design, and if you're lucky and perhaps if you make that your intent, you can be put on a single project team from the start, even in a larger firm that will mean alot of the team collaboration that you are suggesting, even in a larger firm. It's not necessarily true that working in a larger offce means you are a disosable cog, often times large firms are divided into studios or teams that will be alot like working in smaller firms within the large firm, each with its own studio culture... That can be a good thing, having the resources of a large firm, but the flexibility and design culture of a smaller firm. If you're applying to larger firms, look at what the studio does, the projects, and the values of the people there... Alot of that can be assessed in an interview.
Another thing is: try to keep an open mind that the project type itself does not necessarily dictate the level of design interest or creative energy that can be exerted. Depending on who's in charge, a KFC could have more room for innovation than an art gallery depending on the design lead... Whatever you get put on, it'll be a learning experience, and its valuable to push design on any proejct, even if you're designing a fast food joint. You won't be designing fast food joints all the time... But anyway, I think its not a bad idea to give yourself some room, be open and try to get a read on the people who interview you and the office culture, but don't limit your applications too quickly. I think alot of a job experience depends on who you get to work with.
The important thing is to work someplace where you can grow, being a slave at small firm that does good work can be stifling too if the people are not cool, and you can just as easily be a dispensable cog in the wheel at a tiny firm, it really depends on the people, something that you can get a feel for if you interview. Also, at a large firm, if you didn't like what you were doing, there is more room for movement, there might even be more deign opportunity in that a very small firm might be more pigeon holed into a particular aesthetic / authorship of the principal. There may also be things you can learn in a mid-sized or large firm that you might not be able to at a tiny firm, and even if you decide that you're more suited to a small office later, that large firm experience could be invaluable.
on the other hand, i think there are some other good points. the real world is quite different from school... if you want to be able to design for real, its important to know how the industry works, its always collaborative and not usually general like in school, no matter who you work for... so in a way, its good to be a cog in the wheel, maye not a disposable cog... and its good to learn everything,especially the many facetted process of how things are actually built...
i'm recently out of school too, basically a newbie... i think ochona and aluminate have good points... school is only the beginning, when you're out, there's alot to learn that archi school does not adequately prepare you for.
i had a couple of internships (ranging from 2 to 5 months each), but when i was in a job interview recently since i've graduated the lady said i have no work experience. so intern job doesn't constitute work or what?
Unsolicited resumes are definately NOT the way to go. At my old job, people would fax us resumes all the time. Usually, we'd just laugh at them for a while (because they were always terrible) and then throw them out. Sending out batch resumes doesn't work either.
If you are answering a job ad, the best way to go is to tailor your resume and cover letter to address the specific needs of the ad you are answering. And always follow up with a call a few days after you send your resume.
If you are looking for a job at a place that is not advertising any openings, your best option is to call, or go visit in person (depending on the firm). That way, they know your name and remember your face, so that when you send a resume, they will know who you are.
: "the lady said i have no work experience" ... that's when you politely point out that, "yes, in fact, I have about 7-months of full-time work experience, as you can see here on my resume ... during those two jobs I did ______ and learned how to ________ and my employers would be happy to speak with you about how well I performed in those jobs."
If you don't stand up for yourself, nobody else will !
recent grad/no job limbo...
I graduated almost a month ago and so far I haven't had any luck finding a job/internship. I'll all comes down to either a) don't have enough experience; or b) I don't have a car (to get to the jobs in suburbia.
I graduated with a 3.60 GPA; I got one of the best grades/crits in my last studio, and I won an honorable mention in the last design awards. But none of this seems to matter, only that I know CAD seems to matter.
Am I just being whinny about not having a job a month after? Or should I just apply for grad school and look for internships when I'm in school again?
i hear that...... i just turned 30 and you would think that me being a professional model builder/licensed builder/some arch office experience/design-build experience/furniture/interiors/shop manager....etc........ and i can't find a job because of some bullshyt.....
makes me think that the industry just want's robots and and creators...
i was gonna go to grad school and got accpeted already but i figured why spend 50k plus if i'll be in the same boat when i get out......
my sister works for the post office and she makes 26 bucks an hour plus full benefits/vac/overtime/etc.......
makes u wonder about the standards of the field and how firms want highly experienced or cadd monkeys...... no middle ground at all.....
typo....... want's robot and no creators.......
Sometimes if you have trouble finding a summer intern position right after graduation you'll have better luck around August or September as all the summer help starts to move back to school. Keep trying. Also try calling or emailing the places that rejected you in May or June a little later in the summer to let them know you're still looking and are available for the fall.
I wouldn't recommend going back to school as a way of dealing with the difficulty of finding a first job. You still need to find that first job - whether now or a few years from now.
I don't think it is the case that firms only want robots and no creators. But with somebody brand new with no experience we are looking for some basic skills - because you have to "earn your keep" while you learn. Also, look at the standard phases of service for most firms - only about 10% to 20% of the typical project schedule and budget is allocated to the early design phases while 60% to 75% is usually allocated for the construction document phase. We don't need "robots" but we need people who can learn to do the less glamorous parts of the project - the detailing, spec writing, door scheduling, etc. - as well and professionally as they can do the type of schematic design that they learned in school.
The car issue seems like the biggest potential limiting factor. If you're in a larger city then it should be fine - just keep looking. But if realistically you're going to end up having to find something in a smaller city or suburb then most firms will require a car. And even if they don't require it, it may limit what your role will be if you can't go to visit clients and to job sites. If you work in the suburbs without a car (unless the firm is big enough to have company cars) you may be limiting yourself to a production role for now.
where are you looking for work?
I hear you- I sent out 14 resumes and heard back from 1. It would be nice to receive a rejection letter or something so I can move on.
I am looking at LA, SF, Portland, and Seattle. I was hoping to plan a huge tour of the west coast with interviews at each stop. So far it just looks like SF. This is more frustrating then I thought it would be.
I'm in Milwaukee. I've looked at most of the large firms in the city, and I'm also searching in Chicago; but even in Chi-town all I find is BS in the burbs (I say BS because I DID NOT spend 4 years in college to make a KFC, and that's a lot of the work the firms I've seen in the Chicago burbs are doing).
I hear you- I sent out 14 resumes and heard back from 1. It would be nice to receive a rejection letter or something so I can move on.Amen, I have heard back from one of the larger firms in the city, but it seems most firms don't eve have the courticy of seending you a rejection letter.
I'm in Milwaukee. I've looked at most of the large firms in the city, and I'm also searching in Chicago; but even in Chi-town all I find is BS in the burbs (I say BS because I DID NOT spend 4 years in college to make a KFC, and that's a lot of the work the firms I've seen in the Chicago burbs are doing).
I hear you- I sent out 14 resumes and heard back from 1. It would be nice to receive a rejection letter or something so I can move on.Amen, I have heard back from one of the larger firms in the city, but it seems most firms don't eve have the courticy of seending you a rejection letter.
someone delete that doble post please
for some reason i get a twisted satisfaction out of seeing a recent graduate go through a ego/reality check. is it just me? not that i wish you misfortune cuervo, quite the contrary. i just think this ego check will make you a better architect...if you choose to see it that way.
CuervoMuerto,
you may have to work on a few KFC's before you can work on the projects you would like to. Your architectural education does not end with school, it really just begins...
i use to live 2 blocks from here. as silly as it is, it's actually better than most of the work i was doing at my first job.
When I was fresh out of school I too was offended at not getting rejection letters from each and every firm where I had sent a resume. Now that I've been out in the market for a while, I've come not to expect them. Honestly, unless someone has either words of encouragement or constructive criticism to address directly to me, I'd rather skip getting the typical "we'll keep your resume on file" form letter.
If you look at things from a firm's perspective, an office may be getting tens or even hundreds of unsolicited resumes weekly, especially this time of year, for positions from summer intern all the way up to principal. Even to send out a basic form letter in response to all those resumes would take a mimimum of a few hours per week of employee time. I can't blame a firm for not wanting to take an employee away from billable work just to crank out form letters, especially if the firm isn't currently hiring or advertising open positions.
cuervomuerto,
congratulations, you are now standing at the threshold of one of the many "weeding out" stages of the architect's career. right now your gpa, your honorable mentions, even your college degree (with or without a fancy frame) mean very little. in fact, probably the only thing that does matter is your desire to stick it out and become an architect. if your goal is to become an architect then you have to get a job. and in a competitive market with other young recent grads looking for work then you're going to have to accept the fact that you might be working on kfc's if that will get your foot in the door.
otherwise, you might want to consider doing something different with your life. maybe a good paying job...maybe law school...maybe peace corp or army...whatever
oh...and by the way, this is by no mean the last such threshold that you will need to cross. you will then have to get into graduate school, finish it, get another job (this time paying a decent wage since you can't live off you parents forever), get through idp, pass the are, muster up the courage to start you own firm and then if you can keep that afloat for five years or so...well then you might finally feel comfortable enough to call yourself an architect and turn down fried chicken jobs.
as for the immediate future, i would consider taking the summer off. now that it's june, we're about to hit the summer holiday/vacation season which means that inevitably many of the decision makers in offices will be out of their offices. it's somewhat unfortunate that schools let their graduates out at the begining of summer because that is often not the best time to be looking for a job. over the years, i've noticed that early autumn (sept-oct) and just after the new year (jan) tend to be the best times to job search.
its not unusual. i know of 'top' recent graduates sending out over a hundred resumes and nada...
don't try detroit..... i'm trying to get out...nothing really here.... the designs aren't really all that and etc............
just have to breath
We didn't send rejection letters to the people we haven't hired yet for a round of interviews that we did about 5 weeks ago (for both summer and fulltime long-term employees.) That's because we may still want to add more people. We are waiting to see what pans out with a few projects that are currently "on hold" and with some larger projects for which we're shortlisted.
I understand the impatience of applicants, and that their practical financial concerns may force them to find other situations before we might be able to say for sure if we'll be needing them.
But I don't want to send rejection letters to applicants unless we have definately decided to reject them. Many candidates end up on our "wish list" of people we'd love to bring on if our projects pan out. (Keep in mind that we're just as impatient to hear from all those clients and committees out there who are currently considering us as you are to hear from the firms.) We do tell candidates who contact us for an update that we have not made a decision yet, that we'll let them know when we do, and that we understand that they may not be able to just sit and wait.
Don't assume that firms have rejected you and don't have the courtesy to tell you so. Contact them to let them know you're still interested and see if you can get an update on the status of their search.
another point: a month is not a long time at all for a job search. for the job seeker a month may seem like an eternity, but to the office worker a month is not a long time. i've had papers sitting on my desk for a month that i've been meaning to get around to looking at but either haven't had time or haven't felt like dealing with. exactly the same thing happens with resumes. employers rarely as eager to hire someone as you are to be hired. i've sent out resumes and not gotten called back until 2 or 3 months later. you just have to be patient.
The problem or challenge is that all the senior staff in offices want to do the design and wont let juniors do it. So, as a junior you are stuck drawing up the designs the seniors create. I had and interview at one office (staff of 9) where they told me at the interview that the owner does all the design and everyone else just facilitates the design. BUNK! So, until you the some grey hairs your CAD, PM and construction documentation skill will get you in the door. No one will care about your design glories from school. Sorry, but that is the truth. Senior ARchitects that have been doing CAD for twenty years prior to finally designing something are going to want to keep the reigns on the design work. The only way you can fast track getting into design is to open your own biz. You will be a monkey for a while.
similar experience last year...
and MAC, that all depends on where you work. also, what you describe is prevailant, but it has many permutations...
many of the principal figures in the multi-office corporate firm that I work at are primarily concerned with business and marketing...the designers are typically in the mid-range of experience. This set up shrinks the distance between an entry level intern and design opportunity...just another perspective...
I don't agree that an entry level employee has to be a monkey. You may not be positioned for your ideal job right outta school, but it's possible to find a situation where there is opportunity.
Let's get a little perspective here ...
1. Currently, on the AIA.org career center, there are a grand total of 37 job ads for entry level Intern Architects ... none of those jobs are in Milwaukee.
2. Currently, on the AIA.org career center, there are 789 job ads for mid-level to experienced Archtects and Project Managers.
3. Those two numbers indicate what the REAL hiring challenges are in this profession right now ... i.e. finding enough people who actually know how to do something productive and who can work reasonably independently.
CuervoMuerto -- yes, I do think you are being whinny. As a principal in my firm, I have to say that you're not remotely the center of my universe right now. I'm not having any trouble finding good quality intern level talent. I am having LOTS of trouble finding experience professionals who can manage and direct those interns.
While I think it would be nice to answer promptly every unsolicited resume that crosses my desk each week (and, just for the record, that's about 50 / week right now) it's really not possible to do that as quickly as we might like. At our firm, we do try to acknowledge receipt of all resumes (if we have an e-mail address) but it sometimes takes weeks before we actually have a chance to assess the credentials carefully and evalutate the hiring potential in each situation.
The easier you make it for us to assess your qualifications and communicate with you, the more likely you are to receive a response from us. But, if you send us a garbled resume file, and 15 separate JPG attachments in 4 separate e-mails that we have to struggle to manage, I'm pretty sure you're not going to get the attention you think you deserve.
While this may seem harsh, the profession does not owe you a living. You have to make a case for why someone would want to pay you a salary ... you have to put yourself in a position where you are seen to be cooperative and adaptable to the firm's needs (not the othere way around) ... what can you do to support the efforts of the firm ?
I get resumes in here every single day from 4-year degree holders, pleading with me to give them work. What they don't ever seem to grasp is the obvious reluctance on our part to invest heavy amounts of time and training in a candidate who CLEARLY is going to leave us to return to grad-school ... rather than put myself in that situation, I'm going to just keep hiring co-op students, where I at least know what the potential is before bringing them on board.
I can't tell you the number resumes I receive each month where the stated objective of the candidate goes something like "to have an enjoyable experience designing great buildings" ... come on folks ... let's get real here ... let's show some minor awareness of what the role of an intern architect really is ... we're going to spend a lot of time teaching you what the schools fail to teach ... somewhere, you're going to have to tell me what we're going to get out of the deal if we hire you ?
I recently graduated and have some advice. I was similarly frustrated by my complete inability to find a job and was sending out/emailing resume after resume after resume.
There are three succesful ways to go about it.
(1) Call up firms (DO NOT I REPEAT DO NOT WRITE) that you are interested in and ask them if they are looking for someone. Have 4-5 well presented work samples ready to email (PDF 8.5x11) and your resume. A quick cover letter stroking their back helps.
(2) Ask your profs if they know anyone who is looking for someone. Don't ask them if they are looking for someone because its better to give them the opportunity to ask you to work for them. (Makes it less awkward tahn if you staight out ask them for a job).
(3) Ask your archi-friends if they know of anyone looking.
The key is just getting in the loop. Your first job will probably blow, but everyone's does. And, you only need to stick it out for 6 months if it sucks. Afterwards, its a breeze (well, sort of). Just get some experience ASAP. That's what I found its all about.
I recently graduated and have some advice. I was similarly frustrated by my complete inability to find a job and was sending out/emailing resume after resume after resume.
There are three succesful ways to go about it.
(1) Call up firms (DO NOT I REPEAT DO NOT WRITE) that you are interested in and ask them if they are looking for someone. Have 4-5 well presented work samples ready to email (PDF 8.5x11) and your resume. A quick cover letter stroking their back helps.
(2) Ask your profs if they know anyone who is looking for someone. Don't ask them if they are looking for someone because its better to give them the opportunity to ask you to work for them. (Makes it less awkward tahn if you staight out ask them for a job).
(3) Ask your archi-friends if they know of anyone looking.
The key is just getting in the loop. Your first job will probably blow, but everyone's does. And, you only need to stick it out for 6 months if it sucks. Afterwards, its a breeze (well, sort of). Just get some experience ASAP. That's what I found its all about.
i'm moving to cali (l.a./santa monica/etc area) soon and would like to get a team that wants to do some cool work and has connections.... i'm leaving detroit for a reason and want to design/build in cali....but it might take a short time for me to get my builders license and find an architect to team up with...... i'm serious....
www.237am.com
b
"While this may seem harsh, the profession does not owe you a living. You have to make a case for why someone would want to pay you a salary ... you have to put yourself in a position where you are seen to be cooperative and adaptable to the firm's needs (not the othere way around) ... what can you do to support the efforts of the firm ?"
Appreciate the honesty, comb, but it sounds like you've lost some perspective. No one is entitled to a "living" from the profession, sure, but we all have to start somewhere. Unfortunately, we all tend to start at about the same place (ZERO years experience), and it usually gets messier from there thanks to things like pre-professional degrees and varying state licensure requirements. You know all about that because you've gone through it.
A lot of us have unrealistic expectations upon graduation, but that doesn't mean that we aren't also eager to learn. And "support the efforts of the firm"? THAT'S WHAT INTERNS DO! We produce all day long. If you want to keep us around, maybe you could pay us well and maybe you could challenge us with something other than overcoming poor management. I'm no business genius, but I do know that eventually, with time, 0 yr. interns will turn into 5 yr. PMs. If you're having an even harder time finding people with that level of experience, say, 5 years from now, then I think you'll understand what the problem might be.
"1. Currently, on the AIA.org career center, there are a grand total of 37 job ads for entry level Intern Architects ... none of those jobs are in Milwaukee.
2. Currently, on the AIA.org career center, there are 789 job ads for mid-level to experienced Archtects and Project Managers."
One plausible reason is that the profession lost quite a few good men during the recession to other better paying jobs. Therefore, with the new boom, there is just not sufficient project architects out there to fill all the jobs.
I appreciate the replies, specially comb and tiger77. While I know I'm being unrealistic, it's just frustuating to look for suposedly entry level jobs and then see that you don't have enogth expirience.
otherwise, you might want to consider doing something different with your life. maybe a good paying job...maybe law school...maybe peace corp or army...whateverNooooo. I'll keep looking. I couldn't do law school, I would go intpo grafic design or set design instead.
CuervoMuerto: Did you go to Interview Day? (I assume they still have it at UWM). How did it go? Are there firms that you wish you had interviewed with? Did any of your friends get jobs as a result of that day?
It's been said multiple times in this forum - the community of Milwaukee architects is strongly tied to UWM. Certainly you must be able to work your academic contacts to your advantage. Did you have any adjuncts as critics?
From what I can gather, the architectural market in Milwaukee is strong, and two of the largest firms have opened offices in Madison.
Good luck, and please feel free to email me if you have questions about specific firms.
CuervoMuerto:
Job hunting can be tough... I'll tell you the way I approached it: first, I never emailed. Always sent a hard copy with some good work samples attached, and a custom cover letter. Invest the time and money to make your applications count, spend enough time presenting yourself well before you send out, layout and presentation, etc. If it takes you 3 weeks working every day to perfect your resume and work sample package that you will send, do it. And print it out nicely, then sending out will be easy, you can send a couple a day, with a well thought out cover letter that is customized for each firm.
The reason I think a hard copy is better: it shows that you invested the time, money and effort to apply to their office, and its something tangible on hand, more difficult to throw in the garbage pail. Also, if you invest this energy in it, you will probably be a bit more selective in who you send to, just send to firms you would want to work for. If you don't hear from them after a while, you can always contact them and follow up.
think of it another way: if you are short on experience, your greatest asset is your dedication, talent, and enthusiasm, eagerness to grow with their company... that and maybe any computer skills you might have. thats the only edge you might be able to sell as a fresh graduate... one thing that might make you competitive with other candidates with more experience: people might want to hire you if you're enthusiastic, but they're almost guarenteed to not want to hire you if you're not at all interested in what they do... I dunno, thats my 2 cents, but I'm quite new myself.
On the other hand, you can learn something from any job, designing a KFC is something... You don't have to design KFC's forever, everything is a step up.
a good thing is, if you don't have experience, and what worked for me, is to be very succinct and find out what each firm you apply to does. i.e. Fashion what their "charecter" is in your cover letter you write to them. If they do renovations, express that you're willing to do detail and interior elevations, if they're a big firm, express that you have a customer sevice aplitude since they work with many people from all over. But understand that, it's not so much a change of identity as you shop around, but an effort to improve your well roundedness.
I agree with close to everything bRink has said.
I would also expand my options with the type of design firms I'm applying to. In one sense, all design involves similar concepts and ideas, but at different scales.
I would look into jobs/internships with graphic design firms, urban design firms, fabricators, furniture designers and the like.
if it is a creative design position you want then you must be creative about your application. a good example i have seen: a candidate made a portfolio/resume from a single piece of paper that unfolded from a square, revelaing information about himself and examples of his work after each unfold. it probably cost no more than a few bucks to make, but you could tell he spent some time on it. it was so effective that 6 of us crowded around it to discuss it. he got an offer . don't just send a resume with some stats on it. those get thrown away. make an object/package that will make employer remember you and feel guilty about throwing away, even if it means investing some time and money on it. i don't know where to find the link, but one of my old instructors made this cool marketing kit that he sent to potential clients. it involved some clever packaing and medical rubber band type stuff. don't have an image, but arch record did an article about it. the firm is plexus r+d
if applicants spend so much time and money making good portfolios for grad school, why not make the same investment for job applications?
sure, u can go all out and make some hot shyt... but really most of the time portfolios can be overdone......
trying to market myself in the areas that i do, i prolly spent over 5-6000 over the past 3 years or so.... sure, that might not be alot for a firm but for a 1 man shop.... that's a good amount of change.....
u also have to figure out what sets u aside from the rest..... i'm sure firms gets the typical portfolio's in box with wood/metal details/etc.... that went out in the late 90's.....
look at it this way, life is a hustle.... if you don't try to get it, you won't get it.........
I don't agree that you should spend a huge amount of time and money on your portfolio for this first job. At this point, with no experience, your portfolio is not a very important factor in the eyes of most employers. Neither are your GPA or academic design successes. In fact, within a year or two I'd expect that all or most of your academic work will be phased out of the portfolio that you use to apply for employment. (Your portfolio for applying to grad school is a whole other story...)
What's important right now is that you have some skills and a good attitude, and are willing to show up, do what's needed even when it isn't very glamorous, learn about what the firm does and how to do it, etc. and become thoroughly familiar and productive in typical firm procedures.
Once you have even 1 year of experience in a firm - ANY FIRM - you'll be in a better position to market yourself as a designer and it will be easier to target the specific types of firms that you're interested in. That year of experience is like your ticket through the door of a lot of firms.
Don't get too worried that 1 year in a run-of-the-mill firm will somehow take you out of the running for better opportunities later. A lot of interns seem to worry that if their first job isn't with a "starchitect" they've somehow ruined their future potential to work for good firms. In reality the more well-known firms are able to be all the more selective in their hiring and often want to see some professional experience first.
I started out in a small, no-name firm. It didn't hurt my or my coworkers' abilities to get interviews and offers at bigshot firms later. I had a titled Designer role with a large, well-known firm within about two years of graduation.
I agree with others here who have pointed out that in many firms designers tend to be mid-level employees, not necessarily principals. But it's very unlikely that a firm will put someone fresh out of school, with no experience at all, into a role in which the only thing they do is design.
Lots of firms will put you in a role in which you collaborate as part of a team on the design phases of projects. Some will give you smaller projects to attack on your own - hopefully with some amount of supervision at first! Some will give you elements of larger projects as your own "design territory" to see what you can do. That sometimes means starting with floor patterns or paneling or even the dreaded bathroom design, but usually assumes progressively better assignments. But you've got to expect that you'll be doing a lot of construction documents at first too - and you really shouldn't be too unhappy about it because it's one of the best ways to learn to detail projects. (It's really very hard to design beyond architecture-school-level conceptual and diagrammatic thinking until you have a strong grasp of construction issues and how to put things together.)
Some firms will also expect you to spend some of your time on much more mundane day-to-day office tasks. In a small firm you may be taking your turn filing, cleaning, and even answering phones. If you rule out all firms in which this stuff is part of the job description you'll be narrowing your options considerably.
I have to advise that you take a job - ANY JOB - as soon as you can get it, even if it means detaling KFC's. Stick it out for a year. Then re-assess your options. You'll be in a much better position at that point to apply to firms that interest you more.
Remember that architecture has a very long, slow learning curve. A lot of people don't really hit their peak of talent and knowledge/ability until their 40s - 50s. Architecture school is just the very first step that qualifies you to be an intern, then eventually get licensed, maybe go out on your own, etc. But right now just think of it as getting accepted to phase 2 of your education. Find someplace that will take you. If it doesn't turn out to be your dream job (and trust me, even if it looks like your dream job today it's unlikely that it will stay that way) then "transfer" to a better job in a year or so.
aluminate,
i think the point was that cuervo didn't just want to 'settle' for a first job. if you are willing to settle on anything for your first job, then agreed, portfolio and gpa mean nothing. it's really all networking, but if you want that ideal design job, go for it.
i kind of just settled for my first job bc it was the only offer i got at the time (i was interviewing right when the iraq war started). if i was coming out of school now, i'd be shooting for the job i really wanted. and i don't buy the slow learning curve, you won't peak until you're 50 bs. i refuse to believe it. i know many talented (and busy) architects under 35 who have their own firm. and if you were really good, then your talent never "peaks". i guess it's a matter of which you choose to be.
kind a going against what i said earlier about kfc, but i'm still reflecting on it myself.
Yeah, I understand what Cuervo is saying.
But Cuervo has some conflicting things going on.
He's (or she's) frustrated because he has been looking for a month and is still unemployed.
But he doesn't want to take just any job.
He wants a job in which he'll have a substantial design role.
But often an entry-level person has a better chance of having a more substantial design role if he chooses a smaller and/or less prominent firm. That's no always the case, but I can say that my experience in "star" firms is that mid-level people really clamor for design-input roles, and are often extremely territorial.
When I was more of a "senior intern" in a name-brand firm one of my duties was to be the first line of defense in evaluating resumes, scheduling interviews, etc. (I do that now in my small firm too.) Portfolios do matter, but for entry-level people with no experience most firms are looking more for evidence of skills - a good drawing hand, competent and neat model building, proficiency with CAD and other software, layout skills, etc. There is less emphasis on design ability, design tendencies and "style", etc.. That's not to say that nobody cares at all - certainly academic work will be perused, and it can be the focus of an interview in the absence of other work.
I've never seen any firm that cared about anyone's GPA. I've heard a lot of negative comments about the tendency of new grads to put GPA on their resumes - especially if they're carried out to multiple decimal places. There's so much variation in programs, grade inflation, etc., and studio grading is so subjective, that it's not a good measure of anything. I taught in design programs in which Cuervo's 3.6 would be unattainable, and others in which it would be considered only so-so. Granted Cuervo is interviewing close to where he went to school, so people interviewing him may be intimately familiar with his particular architecture school. But I still think he's emphasizing academic accomplishments too much and should focus on conveying that he's got concrete, immediately useful skills that will benefit the firm.
Personally I would not advise putting a huge time and financial investment into an entry-level portfolio. Of course it should be carefully designed and put together, and well edited. But beyond that, any tricky packaging or other special effects are probably not worth the trouble at this stage....
Anyway, just my opinion. Good luck.
and as far as the slow learning curve: lots of people have their own firms in their 20s or 30s. (I'm in my 30s and a partner in a small firm.) Still I think it takes longer than that for most of us to really get to where we want to be knowledge-wise... Maybe some people are much better much earlier or at least think they are. I feel competent at this point but certainly not totally "there" yet, and lots of my peers express similar feelings.
Mostly my comments about the learning curve were more in response to Cuervo's impatience to be evaluated primarily on design skill immediately out of school.
He's (or she's) frustrated because he has been looking for a month and is still unemployed.
But he doesn't want to take just any job.
He wants a job in which he'll have a substantial design role.
But often an entry-level person has a better chance of having a more substantial design role if he chooses a smaller and/or less prominent firm.
No nessesarily (I'm a he BTW). It's not that I want a substancial design role, it's that I still want to work on things that I like. I know I'm an idealistic young punk; but I just don't want to be making WalMart floor plans, and things of that nature. I know eventuaally I'm going to have to suck it up and do it, but that dosen't mean I'm going to like it.
I do want a to work at a smaller firm, but that's because I want to feel like I'm part of a group, and not just another disposable cog in a factory. Hell my dream job rigth now would be the model maker/cad/photohsop/slave at a small firm.
Mostly my comments about the learning curve were more in response to Cuervo's impatience to be evaluated primarily on design skill immediately out of school.
I know I'm being a bitch, and I apologize for that. I started this tread mostly as a rant; but you guys have given some valuable imput, so I thank you for that.
Anyway on Tuesday I'm goign to start my new (temporary) contruction job working under UWM's shop guy. I've wanted have some construction expirience for a while now anyway, and it pays more that the "normal" job I was going to get to pay the bills so I'm happy. After that the architecture search continues.
And expect an email DCA...
...Abraham?...
Yes sir/ma'am. I know I've met you here before and that I know you in real life. But who are ya really? lol
Anyway on a related note; the construction fell througth because of lack of funds/codes stuff (I guess I'm really learning from the real world now). But I just got a call back from a firm today. So it all balances itself out.
with that good bit of news, i want all youse students to take notes:
1. get your first summer architecture job after your first year in school.
2. do ANYTHING. just get that first job. take out the trash. file. have NO expectation that you will even be allowed to breathe the word "design" unless perhaps you're filing "design development" documents in the office flat file. don't be discriminating except, you know, don't work for firms that eat human flesh or big things like that.
3. make it one whole summer.
4. then, either go back the next summer...or get another job.
5. repeat 3 and 4 until you graduate.
*btw, cuervo, you didn't say (or i forgot) how much experience you had and i'm not assuming you had some or none, these are just guidelines.
it's funny that many premiated graduates have never punched a clock in an architecture firm prior to graduation, and have no idea what it's like in, yes, the real world.
they have no idea that they have to keep track of their time for each task they do...and may have to justify the 22 hours they spent fine-tuning the colors in a rendering to someone with authority.
they have no idea that design -- pure "design" as practiced in school -- is like 1% of the building process.
they have very out-of-touch expectations as to what working in a firm should be. and have never seen the professional hierarchy up close.
i mean, the cardiologist didn't come out of medical school being the lead on the heart transplants, did s/he? no matter how many s/he had simulated in school.
cuervomuerto:
I think it's good to come out of school with high expectations and want to work on good design, to be a small part of a team that is interested in good design. That being said, I think its good to keep an open mind.
First, don't limit yourself to small firms. There are some really good larger offices that also do good design, and if you're lucky and perhaps if you make that your intent, you can be put on a single project team from the start, even in a larger firm that will mean alot of the team collaboration that you are suggesting, even in a larger firm. It's not necessarily true that working in a larger offce means you are a disosable cog, often times large firms are divided into studios or teams that will be alot like working in smaller firms within the large firm, each with its own studio culture... That can be a good thing, having the resources of a large firm, but the flexibility and design culture of a smaller firm. If you're applying to larger firms, look at what the studio does, the projects, and the values of the people there... Alot of that can be assessed in an interview.
Another thing is: try to keep an open mind that the project type itself does not necessarily dictate the level of design interest or creative energy that can be exerted. Depending on who's in charge, a KFC could have more room for innovation than an art gallery depending on the design lead... Whatever you get put on, it'll be a learning experience, and its valuable to push design on any proejct, even if you're designing a fast food joint. You won't be designing fast food joints all the time... But anyway, I think its not a bad idea to give yourself some room, be open and try to get a read on the people who interview you and the office culture, but don't limit your applications too quickly. I think alot of a job experience depends on who you get to work with.
The important thing is to work someplace where you can grow, being a slave at small firm that does good work can be stifling too if the people are not cool, and you can just as easily be a dispensable cog in the wheel at a tiny firm, it really depends on the people, something that you can get a feel for if you interview. Also, at a large firm, if you didn't like what you were doing, there is more room for movement, there might even be more deign opportunity in that a very small firm might be more pigeon holed into a particular aesthetic / authorship of the principal. There may also be things you can learn in a mid-sized or large firm that you might not be able to at a tiny firm, and even if you decide that you're more suited to a small office later, that large firm experience could be invaluable.
on the other hand, i think there are some other good points. the real world is quite different from school... if you want to be able to design for real, its important to know how the industry works, its always collaborative and not usually general like in school, no matter who you work for... so in a way, its good to be a cog in the wheel, maye not a disposable cog... and its good to learn everything,especially the many facetted process of how things are actually built...
i'm recently out of school too, basically a newbie... i think ochona and aluminate have good points... school is only the beginning, when you're out, there's alot to learn that archi school does not adequately prepare you for.
None at all. But I have to say I wish I had done everything you outlines there.
Well I have an interview with the firm that gave me that call back so we'll see what happpens. Wish me luck!
i had a couple of internships (ranging from 2 to 5 months each), but when i was in a job interview recently since i've graduated the lady said i have no work experience. so intern job doesn't constitute work or what?
Unsolicited resumes are definately NOT the way to go. At my old job, people would fax us resumes all the time. Usually, we'd just laugh at them for a while (because they were always terrible) and then throw them out. Sending out batch resumes doesn't work either.
If you are answering a job ad, the best way to go is to tailor your resume and cover letter to address the specific needs of the ad you are answering. And always follow up with a call a few days after you send your resume.
If you are looking for a job at a place that is not advertising any openings, your best option is to call, or go visit in person (depending on the firm). That way, they know your name and remember your face, so that when you send a resume, they will know who you are.
: "the lady said i have no work experience" ... that's when you politely point out that, "yes, in fact, I have about 7-months of full-time work experience, as you can see here on my resume ... during those two jobs I did ______ and learned how to ________ and my employers would be happy to speak with you about how well I performed in those jobs."
If you don't stand up for yourself, nobody else will !
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