its true, if you can talk, and sell something, youre ahead of the game

Welcome to sales

I wholly agree

Sorry to hear about it, Strawbeary. The difficult thing now is telling the client the truth without looking like you are just jealous/a bitch/trying to stake out more scope for yourself etc.

As the architect, it is totally appropriate for you to critique the interior designer's work in terms of maintenance, cost, etc. If you truly think the thing will be a maintenance nightmare, you actually owe it to the Owner to point that out, in the most rational and polite way possible, of course.

Also, try saying things to the Owner like "While I think it looks cool now, I worry that in five years you'll have to re-do everything ($$$) because you'll feel it looks dated - perhaps we can work with the designer to tone it down to something a little more timeless?" etc. I think the word "dated" scares Owners, while "trendy" sounds like you are just an old fogey not open to new ideas. (No offense Old Fogey, if you are reading this!) Also, important not to say "How can we convince Ms. ID to change this?" Better to make it sound like you want to work together with her to come to a soultion that is better for all - how can the Owner not be pleased to think of his/her entire team working together to his/her benefit?

Good luck dealing with it, and do report back if you have any success with subverting the bad design!

while we all wish it were not true, the fact remains that "influence and persuasion" are among the most important -- and least developed -- skills needed to actually get "good architecture" built.

we all know very talented designers who cannot communicate worth a damn ... we all know schlock designers who can be charming and who can sell ... more often than not, the schlock designers are the ones who get their stuff built ... that is not a good thing.

this is not to say our clients are stupid ... they're not. but many clients really don't know the difference between good and bad work (just like i would not know the difference between good rocket science and not-so-good rocket science) ... clients typically just know what they like ... it's up to us to develop (and use) the language skills and the selling skills necessary to help them make the necessary distinctions ...

you can't just rely on your work to stand on its own ... you have to help it along with "people skills" and "presentation skills" ...

most schools of architecture really don't help us develop those skills (they do make us practice such skills, but they really don't teach us how to do it better) ... i find it interesting that one of the most important parts of the curriculum at most MBA schools are really good classes that teach both written and verbal communication skills ... more often than not, those are the kind of people sitting across the table from us in client meetings.

perhaps it is experience and perhaps it is being on my own and simply not having the ability to focus too much time on every battle, but I've noticed that I'm more comfortable (and successful) getting my point across via several meetings/phone calls/emails rather than hoping and expecting that whoever i'm talking to will see the light in one conversation. in fact i'm getting some really good dialogue with clients lately by just planting seeds of opinion and letting the thoughts develop slowly. give it a shot strawbeary.

presentation is a big factor. afterall you wouldn't want to be hung up on the client nitpicking that he doesn't understand the design concept because the presentation isn't clear and well thought-out. whether or not the client is blindly won over by pretty graphics is really a testament to his/her experience and knowledge in what is being presented.

i think some architecture schools do emphasize on presentation and graphics, but not outwardly. our studio had formal crits with all students about once a week, in addition to individual desk crits. by presenting your ideas to new & old audiences over and over again, many were able to hone their communication skills. it also depended on the professor, some would sit and doodle while a presenter incoherently rambled on a normal 5 minute explaination for 40 minutes, then pull a inapplicable typical crit comment out of their ass because they weren't paying attention. the good professors would force you to cut out that type of blabbering and roast you on bad graphics. it only took one of such brutal crits for all students watching to get the message. i've noticed that in most studios, as the term progressed everyone got better & better in their presentations.

i wouldn't try going over or under the interior designer's head. that would just bring bad blood to the consultant/client relationship. also need to be careful what you do point out in front of the client. i've noticed if you give criticism- even an extremely nice one, sometimes you can't avoid bad feelings, especially if you're pointing out their errors in front of otthers. maybe a better way would be to ask the iD open ended questions as to suitability, maintenance, etc. so all parties can think through these aspects. at the least you'll be raising issues or problems for others to notice instead of outwardly stating the design is wrong.

Thanks for all the words, it is a complicated deal of course, there is more to it than I explained above. First off I am at 99% CD's and she is on schematic design. I already did much of the "interior design" (sans furniture and artwork) and had it approved by the owner long ago. I asked for her input the whole time, and never got any feedback, NEVER a returned phone call or e-mail.

This fabulous presentation began with how cold the architecture was, how the ceilings were too high and the glass curtain wall is "uncomfortable" and the whole thing is an acoustical nightmare - and that the interior design was going to fix that! She presented her design - apple green, watermelon red, and black Brady Bunch striped quarter turned carpet tiles with matching striped lamps, and mod polka dots fabrics as a way to add the "human element", bringing the space down to "our" level. This is a tiny glass box curtain wall building, clad in natural stone by the way.

She proceeds to "present" - bathroom sinks, mirrors, paint colors (bright red, green, and yellow), gold geometric vinyl wall coverings, casework (not finishes, PIECES), light fixtures, toilet accessories, a green plaid glass art wall, the works - you name it. She brought an entourage of 4 other ladies to back her up, including the owner of her firm who is an "award winning, nationally recognized top designer" or something like that. The men, the owners, were probably more excited about all the estrogen in the room they didn't care about the design and figured those women knew best. They hardly even looked at the boards before the head owner exclaimed that he loved it.

This poor design was on top of being impossible to work with. Plus she doesn't draw, or think for that matter, so I have to draw all her details and figure out the logistics of what she wants to do. She apparntly doesn't know what specs nor cut sheets are as I've tried to tell her she needs to get them to me and she answers, what? and why?

I know I don't have to validate anything to archinectors, but these are the reactions of some of my coworkers after I e-mailed the color boards around the office to make sure I wasn't the crazy one: The principal came out of his office with his jaw dropped onto his chest, asking, "What is that?!?!? She must have sent you the wrong boards." Another, "Nice boards, wrong project." Another, "Has she even seen the building yet, does she know what it looks like?" Yet another, "Now that's a carpet picker for ya!"

I'd always stood up for the ID's here when you guys rip on them. Now I think I know where some of you are coming from! Alas, the advice from my boss is we wil go with what we already have (lighting, bathroom sinks) and get the plaid glass wall VE'ed out and then forget about the rest of it. What gets me is, if they like what she did, they aren't going to like anything I picked out.

Liberty Bell, which do you think will go out of style faster, bright apple green glass wall tile or the ginormous amber glass and bronze mission style chandelier?

Now I need to go smoke a spliff. but I don't have one. dang.

i'd put my money on the apple green tiles.

i was trying to avoid having a go at id but your right, sometimes it appears that the design process which they go through places more importance on the qualities of the individual elements/products rather than the cohesion of the whole. even in our office where the id is integrated within the design team as much as possible there are still instances where they appear to make decisions in isolation.

the same thing can apply to landscape architecture sometimes, i dont mean to criticise landscape architects in general, but one of the products of the smallish design scene i work in is that there are really only 2 landscape firms who do projects of a significant size, which means they work on almost all large projects in this city. unfortunately they very rarely appear to engage with the design at any more than a superficial or pragmatic level. this may not be entirely their fault as i can rember a few times, working on schematic design where i have included or integrated the landscape in the sceme in various ways, only to be told 'dont waste your time on that, the consultants will deal with it'.

the result of all this is that i live in a city where the landscape, shell and interior of a project seem to be in the same place only by some kind of coincidence.....

+the id team gets all the best presents at christmas.

God Strawbeary the more you describe it the worse it sounds. I mean the design sounds hideously trendy (I was at an interior designer event last weekend - 100 designers in one room and let me tell you at least 30 of those people had apple green in their outfit in some fashion, including me as I recall - apple green is soooo popular right now that it is over over over! I actually just specified some apple green silk for a throw pillow for a client's house but for god's sake that's a throw pillow not a permanent installation!!! Jeepers talk about digressions here...) but as I was saying even though the design sounds ugly what sounds worse is the process you are having to deal with!

My firm is interiors and architecture but I swear practically every true "interior designer" I have worked with had absolutely no clue about implementation. How are you going to hang those etched glass panels? What kind of grout does that glass mosaic wall tile need? Is the throat of your faucet long enough to accommodate the extra depth of the chunky square ceramic sink deck? Will that hand-block-printed vegetable dye wallpaper stand up to the humidity in a Master Bath? Does that wool carpet need a pad and if so how thick is it since the hidden jib door in the cabinetry needs to be veritably flush to the floor?

Sorry I'm off on my own rant about people who like how things look but have no idea how things go together and then operate - which in all fairness could be said of not only ID's but of a lot of architects too.

(Honestly, can one still find a Mission style chandelier?!? And is that truly suppsoed to be installed int he same room as acid-toned mod polka dot fabric?!?)

Hang in there Strawbeary - it sounds like a frickin nightmare.

just get target to film a commercial there, the fee will offset the cost of replacing everything in 6 months.

Yes, the amber/bronze mission style chandelier is above (err, ah, I mean ties together and focalizes) the furniture with the apple green, red, and gold mod dots on black background. This over the black and charcoal grey carpet tile accented with apple green and red stripes, quarter turned. Said carpet tile patch is bordered by ceramic tile inlay - one of those nice 4" wide strips that has metal edging - in jade green (yes a totally different green) among other soft neutral tones. All in a sea of chocolate and caramel swirl ceramic tile, interupted oh so designerly-like with 6' wide maple wood flooring in horizontal stripe.

Over in one corner is the backlit green and gold plaid transluscent glass backlit art wall. The furniture is ultry dainty plasticy IKEA type with mod rounded intercies. (In a heavy timber exposed structure building.) Don't forget the colorful striped lampshades and the traditional milled wood base and colored concrete counter tops.

This is an accessory building, clubhouse, to a swimming pool in a planned development, all in one large room, a very architecturally strong room at that, about 1500 square feet, floor to ceiling glass on three sides (where does the three paint colors go you ask? good question, she's not sure yet, but will find a place), wood t&g ceiling deck. There are 5 shades/species of wood in the room, one each for floor, furniture, cabinetry, doors and the ceiling/beams.

With red and white striped patio furniture on the deck.

I could go on, but that's enough to make ya grin, right? What upside down says about the individual components is right on. No one thing she is proposing is horrible (except maybe that mod fabric). And the tile border is actually very nice. When the owners praised her, she laughed and joked - if you guys had picked out the furniture you'd probably have ended up with leather! Everyone had a good hearty laugh.

(kidding about the red and white patio furniture.)

Just typing that made me laugh out loud.

damn. that's bad.
sometimes i must give kudos to interior designers as they can come up with unique and amazing schemes. and then there are ones like this... i'm seeing more of a kids alice-in-the-wonderland, disney-world but chucky-cheese cheaper playroom, scheme doesn't scream sophistication does it.

well, what i've learned and admired from my mentor is that he'll always try to respect a designer's (that's what you hired them for). but i take back what i said before, if she's opened the can of worms by outwardly labelling your architecture as "Harsh" and something that needed their fixing then i wouldn't worry about tip-toeing around her design criticisms. at the least i would question all parts of her design on installation, construction details, maintenance and longevity in addition to scheduling sequence if everyone else is completed cds and she's just starting. these are valid questinos and concerns that you'd need to raise for the client's sake.

on another note i'm always suspicious when an entourage is needed to accompany 1 person's presentation. tells me someone on her end doesn't have faith in the her/the design and thinks strong-arm backup is needed. just my opinion.

Strawberry, seriousness asside, I've found this always works with other consultants who bring perhaps not the most ideal proposals. Start laughing, mildly, in that nasal architectural chuckle they imbred us with at unis. The ID will get on what you are doing, but will be fearful to respond, the client then will interject and ask for your honest and specific opinion.
.But mod lights should burn...

btw Strawberry as a good Jamaican born architect I always keep one [spliff] in the lining of my hemp sachel....I only wish, I would of toked the whole bag already with or without my laptop in it

yup

Strawberry:
why don't you hire professional render to make persuasive and "stunning" renderings of your original space?

Images vs Images -- not Concepts vs Images -- not Words vs Images

My boss loves my presentations, when he wakes up he feels so refreshed that he always approves the design.

That really sucks! this kind of stories make me want to change my major before it too late. Not only architects work like crazy, they are also getting paid much less....

whoa, pencebor ... chill a little !

i think this has been an enlightening and optimistic thread ... it looks at some of the underlying reasons that cause architects not to have all of the influence we might like ... half the challenge of solving any problem is understanding why the problem exists in the first place.

i believe architects need to take a much more proactice stance when it comes to fighting for a meaningful role in the building process ... we can't just keep out heads down, doing design and expecting the rest of the populace to fall all over themselves to say "wow - aren't you smart and talented" ... that's not going to happen. we have to stand up for ourselves and make our voices heard.

when it comes to influence and persuasion, we have a whole bunch of new skills to learn ... those skills are not hard to learn necessarily ... but, we have to decide to step up and make the effort ... nobody's going to just pour that stuff into our heads.

as a land arch, I was once in a discussion about a project with an architect from an well known firm and I protested that we "were beyond the graphic phase" and needed to think about what the space would be like for the people who would live there (referring to the site plan for a residential development) to which she responded "but the graphic is everything". So much for creating places for people....