I work for a large development firm where we have a project that has several buildings designed by numerous architects. I have been able to obtain architectural, structural and MEP drawings in CAD format from all but one of the architect's. He is claiming that these drawings are his "intellectual property" and has charged my firm thousands of dollars to obtain only 9 drawings out of a set of 75. His firm has been paid in full for their services.
A company that has bought the actual building from us is in need of these drawings to do their build-out.
they (drawings) are the instruments of service and they can be only used and reproduced in relation to said project/contract. they belong to architect and their use by the owner is on a temporary licence.
the other architects might have released the cad drawings to be nice to potential client (your co.) but this guy says no to free lunch and he/she is rightful to do so.
in a nut shell.
look inside an aia contract b-141, aggreement btwn owner and architect.
it is not 'intellectual prop' issue it is 'instruments of service' thingy..
i might be corrected though.
I'm suprised that you have been able to get CAD files from all the other architects. The "intellectual property" clause is common in contracts - particularly with private clients.
The non-cooperating architect has no obligation at all to provide you (or your client) with drawings. The exception to that is if that architect's original client was actually your client, AND the original contract stated that the architect would provide "copies of drawings for reference purposes" or something to that effect.
Your choices at this point are to continue to attempt to negotiate with this architect to get whatever drawings you need from him, at a reasonable price, or to go without these drawings - perhaps by providing field-measuring services by your own firm or by hiring someone else to measure and document existing conditions.
Have you tried asking to purchase a hard copy (paper copy) of the architect's set? This is usually more acceptable to the original architect (my firm will never provide CAD drawings but will usually provide a paper set as long as there is no confidentiality clause in the original contract that would prevent it.)
If you do get a paper set, you could have it scanned and converted into CAD line drawings for about $100 per sheet.
Thanks for the responces. I thought as much was the case. Being the landlord and providing a shell building for the tenant buying the building, it would be their hired architect to, as someone said," pull out the measuring tape".
and 'pulling out the measuring tape' might be the more accurate way to go.
Another question, can the onner go to the city and get the copies of the submittal drawings?
was there nothing in the contract about delivering a set of "as-built" drawings at the end of construction? didn't the contractor keep a marked-up set of prints in their job trailer/office to record construction deviations from the construction documents? seems pretty standard to me and is designed to solve exactly your problem.
I do have as built drawings as hard copies. Obviously the tenant's architect wants to save time and money by not having to field measure. They just want to grab and plug existing drawings of the building into their build-out set and finish.
From what I understand, architects usually will send floor plans and elevations free of charge as dwg. But any thing else is a judgment call, (to be awarded future projects). We have worked with this architect on many projects over the years and I have in my procession almost all of their CD's in dwg. format on disc. We have always had a good relationship with all of the architects we work with so apparently he has become disillusioned with our relationship, therefore the big price tag.
the tennants architect really should verify all existing conditions, even if you have drawings from previous architect. Having the drawings does help though.
I would suggest obtaining a paper set from said architect, having the tennants architect make a copy of the paper set for their use, but verify the conditions.
sameolddoctor - the building department keeps a record set that anyone can look at, the record set becomes public information. However, they will not allow you to take the set from their office, or make copies.
Architects usually provide cad drawings as a courtesy or marketing tool. Apparently this architect sees no probable return for his courtesy. No architect wants to be another "company's" drafting service.
The "Owner" always has a better chance of receiving cad info, but only on the first request. If there has been a change in ownership, cad drawings, as standard practice, are part of the contract.
Some city building departments allow in-house copying. I now question that legality...
in the future your employer could make delivery of .dwg as-builts part of the contract, to be received before final payment. that's what most school boards and gov't organizations do. after the fact they have no obligation.
It would be really foolish of the tenant's architect not to measure anyway. First off, there's really no such thing as "as-builts". Hopefully the architect who did the set that you've got a hard copy of didn't actually represent them to you as "as-builts" - if he did his insurance company rep would probably love to give him a lecture on that.
The first architect most likely had a bunch of language in his contract about how his drawings are NOT to be considered "as-builts" or "record drawings", and that unforeseen conditions and/or changes during construction and/or deliberate or inadvertent straying from the construction drawings can result in conditions that are not represented accurately in the construction drawings.
Usually if an owner (or end user, or developer, or whatever) really needs accurate drawings of current conditions they will hire a firm to do "survey drawings.) This is what you, or your tenant, or your tenant's current architect, should do now.
The firms I've worked in all refuse to give CAD drawings to anyone but consultants directly involved in the project. I would not press this issue with a firm that does not want to provide these!
Hey - the guy that beat me on my last quote said he could do a 3 story condo conversion, design, cd's, all the mechanicals, permiting and structural for the low low price of 5k. And he even has a tape measure. Call me, I'll give you the prick's number, he's having a sale.
It works both ways. i've had a boss (architect/firm partner) who basically asked me (lowly intern) to trick an engineering consultant into giving up the MEP CAD files. All we had were the hard copies, but the architect wanted to make some simple last-minute changes and have the drawings reflect them without hiring the engineer all over again. It was a messy pro-bono project for a charitable organization, so from a karma perspective it all went towards a good cause, but I don't know what the legal/copyright/whatever ramifications are. The consultant didn't care anyway.
May 3, 06 12:08 am ·
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Optainig CAD files from architect
I work for a large development firm where we have a project that has several buildings designed by numerous architects. I have been able to obtain architectural, structural and MEP drawings in CAD format from all but one of the architect's. He is claiming that these drawings are his "intellectual property" and has charged my firm thousands of dollars to obtain only 9 drawings out of a set of 75. His firm has been paid in full for their services.
A company that has bought the actual building from us is in need of these drawings to do their build-out.
What is the correct procedure for this situation?
they (drawings) are the instruments of service and they can be only used and reproduced in relation to said project/contract. they belong to architect and their use by the owner is on a temporary licence.
the other architects might have released the cad drawings to be nice to potential client (your co.) but this guy says no to free lunch and he/she is rightful to do so.
in a nut shell.
look inside an aia contract b-141, aggreement btwn owner and architect.
it is not 'intellectual prop' issue it is 'instruments of service' thingy..
i might be corrected though.
I'm suprised that you have been able to get CAD files from all the other architects. The "intellectual property" clause is common in contracts - particularly with private clients.
The non-cooperating architect has no obligation at all to provide you (or your client) with drawings. The exception to that is if that architect's original client was actually your client, AND the original contract stated that the architect would provide "copies of drawings for reference purposes" or something to that effect.
Your choices at this point are to continue to attempt to negotiate with this architect to get whatever drawings you need from him, at a reasonable price, or to go without these drawings - perhaps by providing field-measuring services by your own firm or by hiring someone else to measure and document existing conditions.
Have you tried asking to purchase a hard copy (paper copy) of the architect's set? This is usually more acceptable to the original architect (my firm will never provide CAD drawings but will usually provide a paper set as long as there is no confidentiality clause in the original contract that would prevent it.)
If you do get a paper set, you could have it scanned and converted into CAD line drawings for about $100 per sheet.
looks like it's time to break out the measuring tape...
Thanks for the responces. I thought as much was the case. Being the landlord and providing a shell building for the tenant buying the building, it would be their hired architect to, as someone said," pull out the measuring tape".
and 'pulling out the measuring tape' might be the more accurate way to go.
Another question, can the onner go to the city and get the copies of the submittal drawings?
was there nothing in the contract about delivering a set of "as-built" drawings at the end of construction? didn't the contractor keep a marked-up set of prints in their job trailer/office to record construction deviations from the construction documents? seems pretty standard to me and is designed to solve exactly your problem.
I do have as built drawings as hard copies. Obviously the tenant's architect wants to save time and money by not having to field measure. They just want to grab and plug existing drawings of the building into their build-out set and finish.
From what I understand, architects usually will send floor plans and elevations free of charge as dwg. But any thing else is a judgment call, (to be awarded future projects). We have worked with this architect on many projects over the years and I have in my procession almost all of their CD's in dwg. format on disc. We have always had a good relationship with all of the architects we work with so apparently he has become disillusioned with our relationship, therefore the big price tag.
the tennants architect really should verify all existing conditions, even if you have drawings from previous architect. Having the drawings does help though.
I would suggest obtaining a paper set from said architect, having the tennants architect make a copy of the paper set for their use, but verify the conditions.
sameolddoctor - the building department keeps a record set that anyone can look at, the record set becomes public information. However, they will not allow you to take the set from their office, or make copies.
Architects usually provide cad drawings as a courtesy or marketing tool. Apparently this architect sees no probable return for his courtesy. No architect wants to be another "company's" drafting service.
The "Owner" always has a better chance of receiving cad info, but only on the first request. If there has been a change in ownership, cad drawings, as standard practice, are part of the contract.
Some city building departments allow in-house copying. I now question that legality...
in the future your employer could make delivery of .dwg as-builts part of the contract, to be received before final payment. that's what most school boards and gov't organizations do. after the fact they have no obligation.
It would be really foolish of the tenant's architect not to measure anyway. First off, there's really no such thing as "as-builts". Hopefully the architect who did the set that you've got a hard copy of didn't actually represent them to you as "as-builts" - if he did his insurance company rep would probably love to give him a lecture on that.
The first architect most likely had a bunch of language in his contract about how his drawings are NOT to be considered "as-builts" or "record drawings", and that unforeseen conditions and/or changes during construction and/or deliberate or inadvertent straying from the construction drawings can result in conditions that are not represented accurately in the construction drawings.
Usually if an owner (or end user, or developer, or whatever) really needs accurate drawings of current conditions they will hire a firm to do "survey drawings.) This is what you, or your tenant, or your tenant's current architect, should do now.
The firms I've worked in all refuse to give CAD drawings to anyone but consultants directly involved in the project. I would not press this issue with a firm that does not want to provide these!
I can't think of the last time as-built drawings were atually submitted by any consultant we've ever used...usually just a money in the pocket clause.
you best check the contract you had with him dude. or just hire some kid to draw them up for you...
Hey - the guy that beat me on my last quote said he could do a 3 story condo conversion, design, cd's, all the mechanicals, permiting and structural for the low low price of 5k. And he even has a tape measure. Call me, I'll give you the prick's number, he's having a sale.
It works both ways. i've had a boss (architect/firm partner) who basically asked me (lowly intern) to trick an engineering consultant into giving up the MEP CAD files. All we had were the hard copies, but the architect wanted to make some simple last-minute changes and have the drawings reflect them without hiring the engineer all over again. It was a messy pro-bono project for a charitable organization, so from a karma perspective it all went towards a good cause, but I don't know what the legal/copyright/whatever ramifications are. The consultant didn't care anyway.
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