The USA is far more better than Europe.

chatter of clouds

Will, wouldn't you say Quebec is more socialist in outlook that Toronto (ontario) or Vancouver (BC)?

Jun 26, 13 7:11 am

Tax evasion is widespread, and the worst offenders are the richest people. Maybe if they paid a fair share, and maybe if it was spent on social services and public infrastructure (like it's supposed to be), the rest of us wouldn't feel so royally screwed. Romney paid 12% on $250 million income. Steve Jobs never paid any taxes at all.


Back to Greece, this is the result of bankers shorting sovereign economies. They make money through destruction, much easier and far more profitable than creating something good (which is by definition at odds with crapitalism).

Nobody talks about Iceland, where citizens refused to bailout the banks and the government and constitution were replaced. Or how the IMF came in to help the new govt. "fix" the economy and set the country back again before they were thrown out.

Jun 26, 13 9:41 am


   The debate is quite interesting but many comments are just missing the point ...

   I've never been to the US and i visited europe several times especially cities like Barcelona, Madrid, Paris... and other small cities. I noticed in all these places that people are just fine and the life there is quite luxurious comparing with big African cities. so the point is whether you live in the US or Europe you just got to appreciate what you have, and if you say your governments are corrupted i shall suggest you take a look at southern African countries for example. So stop complaining about stuff like NOT HAVING AN SUV, i mean come on people who are, are just suffering from a very deep lack of sensibility. oh and there's another thing people that complain about high taxes in Europe, i believe it's the same thing in US with the insurance agencies  ! Another point for Europe, when you say EUROPE it's not just one big country like a lot of people think it's many countries combined in one word, therefore you have an amazing cultural diversity in each country that i personally enjoy every time i go to Europe. Of course US  have this cultural diversity thing too but when immigrants come to America they  just get along with one way of life :"the American way of life", and other cultural backrounds take few generations to disappear. I'm not saying europe is better than US all i want to say is that your comparison should be based on personal social studies and not just on clichés (BTW you have a lot of those in both europe and US !) So I think from a social point of view that we all have to discover other cultures especially architects because there's no other thing that could lead us to a better understanding of the world in which we live,ways of life and life itself...

Jun 26, 13 9:55 am

wouldn't you say Quebec is more socialist in outlook that Toronto (ontario) or Vancouver (BC)?

I'm answering for myself.  Quebec may be more socialist, but it's also more libertine.  Chalk it up to the Gallic sensibilities.  Since it's all cold up there, it's the only place in Canada I'd want to live.  Toronto and Van show more of their English roots.  Ontario uses an emblem that looks like the British crown for their highway markers and Vancouver is just politically correct and smug.  Plus, the Quebecois say some crazy shit.  When the secession Referendum was a hot potato, some mucky muck or cabinet type said "We do not need to speak French.  We need French in order to speak."  They don't want to become homogenized and have the world's most beautiful language taken away from them.  I thought that was funny.  When Montreal's mayor Jean Drapeau was spending money on the Metro and the Expo, and money was for investment and development was shifting to Toronto at that time, he was asked if he was concerned about this.  Drapeau said "Let Toronto become Milan.  Montreal will always be Rome."  That is hilarious, at least to me.  BC might have the scenery, ON may have the NYC of Canada, but QC wins the contest for charm hands down. 

Jun 26, 13 12:10 pm
chatter of clouds

I'm answering for myself.  Quebec may be more socialist, but it's also more libertine.

but why do you insert your "but" in there? as if you understood my question as an implied criticism of  quebecois socialism. not at all; personally, i am all for a good socialism and a good welfare state. i don't see a contradiction between socialism and openness.

from my viewpoint, i didn't find montreal charming. i liked it (and might be moving there soon) but its not a city of charm even considering the old town (keep in mind i'm not from the US).  i hear quebec city is more charming. i also liked ottawa, although its smaller and less metropolitan. i like the very casual feel of residential neighbourhoods and its trusting interface with the streetscape. very cute and friendly. oh and the colours of the maple trees are beautiful.

Jun 26, 13 1:36 pm

socialist egalitarian vibe + libertine attitude = joie de vivre.  That's Montreal's calling card:  joie de vivre.

Yes, Quebec City is more charming, for its history and storybook appearance, not to mention has a location within a river valley and is hilly.  Montreal may not be as charming, but it is unique for a major city.  And how it is that you might be moving there?  I don't know if Americans can sort of sign up and move to Canada.  In fact, I am stunned at all the new immigrants in Canada when I'm there, some of whom are not degreed nor affluent, and wonder what the criteria is for getting in.

Jun 26, 13 2:02 pm
chatter of clouds

is it its calling card? yes, i hear many US americans see it that way. its all relative. if you come from a rat-race culture saturated with  crappy food -if you forgive me for that description- , i guess yes, you might see a slogan for something else as a calling card. there were some not so joyeux looking people around, drug addicts and whatnot. still, an interesting city with an interesting melange of people and cultures.

Jun 26, 13 2:35 pm

Well, there's an attitude there, in Montreal.  And it's a different attitude than in Toronto or Vancouver.  It's palpable, at least to me.  And I like it way better.  Had I become more familiar with the city earlier in my life, I would have attempted to do something so as to be able to live there.  Heck, I didn't even know what McGill Univ. was until I was on vacation and came off one of the bridges in a rental car and found myself looking right at it.

Jun 26, 13 2:41 pm

Actually, the only reason the US might be better than Europe is for immigrants. The US is still far more tolerant than most of Europe in that sense...

Jun 26, 13 6:12 pm

Unless you're Muslim, or Pakistani or ...

Jun 26, 13 6:29 pm
Intolerance is universal. Whether govts institutionalize it is more better issue to ponder. There's lots if it (intolerance) in Canada. Maybe we're more polite about being racist but its still there. Our govt however takes in people from all over the world. It's one of the things that makes it a great nation.

No idea if Quebec is different from rest of Canada. Could be. I liked visiting Quebec and Montreal but for olde-timey cities i liked living in Halifax more. Better culture (university town!) and much nicer than Vancouver, which is a bit too sanitized lately. Pity the east coast economy is so poor.

Socialism is great. We have a pretty good socialist govt here in Japan. Also very libertine. Much more free here than in USA on almost every count. Not sure why people assume those concepts are opposites.

About the op and its ridiculosity. Yeah of course. Whole thread is a big joke.
Jun 26, 13 6:56 pm

"Far 'mo betta"

Jun 26, 13 7:49 pm

FYI. FOX News in full of shit! You should change the channel once in awhile.

I have a hard time believing you have lived in Europe.


How old are you and where are you from in the states?

Jun 27, 13 3:27 pm

The Romney low tax rate is because his earnings are all taxed at the lower rate for capital gains and other passive types of income, set up by Bush II exactly for the Palm Beach / La Jolla / Upper East Side crowd who generate that type of surplus disposable income when in their golden years, yet need it the least.  They also have Medicare, and with a cheap wraparound plan, their health needs are covered, including days in the nursing home, at which point they are close to expiration anyway.  Tax THEM more.  I'm surprised Obama hasn't touched the tax rates.  From a theoretical standpoint, these people provide the dollars which fuel investment and the recycling of money in the economy through all their investment holdings.  However, that sort of thinking also drained the coffers.  On the other hand, Dems tend to tax more and spend more.  Where the happy medium lies is unknown.  It's trial and error.  It's also a lot of number crunching, something the bureaucratic MPAs can do.  I think even the MBAs don't want to touch that stuff.  At any rate, it was a great day when we learned that the Romney dynasty would NOT be occupying the White House.  I didn't know "these people" even lived in Massachusetts.  I think 4 out of his 5 kids have Ivy League MBAs and the fifth studied business before going to med school.  They are avarice on 10 legs, not counting the parents and the products of their prolific procreation.

The above comment doesn't refer to me, since I don't watch FOX news.  At any rate, Greeks are inherently xenophobic.  They have their very own religion and alphabet, so they feel like a distinct entity from other Europeans.  In fact, that was a baseline for the flick "My Big Fat Greek Wedding," which one can only watch one time.  In Europe's south, the other slightly xenophobic folks are the Portuguese, largely because Spain has been hassling them for centuries and because they lost their prominence on the European stage after the Golden Age of the Discoveries.  That's why they have the fado, their own version of the blues - to wale about their sense of loss and tragedy.  I love that country and there are some wonderful people there, and they are more reserved than the Spaniards, which is great when you want peace and quiet.  However, there are some pills among them, and the biggest was a surly working class chick from Fall River MA (a major Portuguese handout) on the shuttle bus with her immigrant parents from the Porto airport arrivals curb to the rental car center.  There are all these culturally normative ways of looking at the world in each European country, and this is more interesting than their economic problems, and less depressing.  In Italy, it's the nationwide obsession with "la bella figura."

Sorry for the rant, but travel + culture = architecture, in a way.

Jun 27, 13 5:10 pm

It was for the topic author  harald

Jun 27, 13 5:32 pm

I think the US is still more tolerant than most other western countries for Muslims and Arabs.

Jun 27, 13 7:07 pm

observant: BO is one of THEM. He wouldn't be where he is if he wasn't.

Jun 27, 13 7:08 pm

Thanks, Miles.  I figured as much.  I don't trust any politician.  As a person who likes to craft things in my small life, I can't comprehend someone who has that level of lust for power, fame, and influence.

Correction on my previous post above:

Fall River MA (major Portuguese hangout), and NOT

Fall River MA (major Portuguese handout)

Jun 27, 13 7:22 pm

Couple of documentary films everyone should see:


Orwell Rolls in his Grave

And this clip of testimony on vote rigging before the Ohio State Legislature.

Guaranteed you will never see things the same way again.

Jun 27, 13 11:41 pm
chatter of clouds

having your own religion and alphabet does not signal inherent xenophobia. futhermore, it is ignorant to call it "their own religion" as their church is in communion with the greater eastern ortodox church that includes the russian, romanian, bulgarian...etc churches. they share faith, liturgical practice and so on. and even the greek orthodox church - a seperate theocratic but not theological entitiy- is hardly limited to greece proper. there are considerable swathes of greek orthodox communities in the middle east harkening back to the Constantinople. this, let alone historical egyptian and african outposts and elsewhere.

aside from that, are greeks  xenophobic?

i have heard really bad things being said about albanians and black people by greeks. not specifically racial slurs but the accusation that they steal and vandalize. i would therefore tentatively agree that  there is racism -moreso now that it has been brought out bu the dire socioeconomic situation. but are they inherently racist - more so than othe British (or even equal to them), for example? i would vehemently disagree. the different is that political correctness does not run in the greek veins. but in temperament, the greeks are generally peaceful very colourful people. this is why i find the Gold Dawn a cancerous tumour in their midst. also the Greece does not attract hoardes of nationalities and strangers as Britain and Germany do. they thus don't have the opportunity to formulate a racially and culturally agnostic platform as do the larger economic hubs.

also, i would not conflate the above with the greek sense of themselves (as you did, observant) which is not only shaped by a glorious hellenic past but also by very tough times since that time. greece was not a rich empire that transformed into a democracy like some of the european powerhouses. the psychological mindset is very different. greece stares at itself with a mixture of pride and disappointment. the degree of self reflexivity is peculair to them and it is understandable and has nothing to do with racism.

Jun 28, 13 2:02 am

having your own religion and alphabet does not signal inherent xenophobia. futhermore, it is ignorant to call it "their own religion" as their church is in communion with the greater eastern ortodox church that includes the russian, romanian, bulgarian...etc churches. they share faith, liturgical practice and so on. and even the greek orthodox church - a seperate theocratic but not theological entitiy- is hardly limited to greece proper. there are considerable swathes of greek orthodox communities in the middle east harkening back to the Constantinople. this, let alone historical egyptian and african outposts and elsewhere.

aside from that, are greeks  xenophobic?

So, you are right in that their sphere of influence, via their religion, is larger than Greece, as I know Eritreans and Somalians who identify as Greek Orthodox.  How about cliquish instead of xenophobic?  I sense that they want you to drop your tourist dollars and be on your way, and are a little too slick in their mercantilism in the process.  Their social life in America often revolves around a cathedral, or one of the few churches they have in a given metro area.  Some of the old timers have known each other for ever and speak Greek when you are at the Greek festivals, almost ignoring the attendees.  As for xenophobia, their lands are being  stomped on by those wanting out of Albania, north Africa, and some Balkan areas, and they feel like their fabric is less intact, in addition to their economic position in the EU being challenging, and this sort of siphoning provides additional stress for Greece. The despair in Greece is nothing to take lightly.  Southern Europe generally has the lowest suicide rates, owing to extensive family support systems, and those aren't even a safeguard in Greece these days.  I have visited Athens and 3 islands.  I would love to return.  However, in my own xenophobic way, it's not the slam dunk that visiting a country with a Latin rooted language is where I can manage quite well.  Greece may look familiar via its biogeographic attributes, but I feel like I am in a very different country.  In Portugal, I can hold a conversation and read what is presented to me, so I'll take a stress-free vacation to one that is more "exotic."  Also, political correctness is not part of the fabric when different peoples aren't being assimilated into the culture.  In Milan, I'm sure some checkpoints are in place, but in Sicily, are you kidding?  Political incorrectness is the order of the day, and they are politically incorrect to other native sons and daughters of Sicily.  Lastly, it can't be ignored that the Mediterranean European countries don't have the work ethic nor the output of others in the EU.  That's not how they roll.  However, for those scraping by, they are fat, dumb, and happy, smoking their cigarettes under the palm degrees and indulging in their mistresses for part of the day.  If they only calculated how many more Euros they'd have in their wallets if they didn't smoke.  They CAN'T afford to smoke.

Jun 28, 13 2:31 am
chatter of clouds

"However, for those scraping by, they are fat, dumb, and happy, smoking their cigarettes under the palm degrees and indulging in their mistress for part of the day."

i think you've reached a low life level with that remark. i'll pay attention to something else now.

Jun 28, 13 2:35 am

i think you've reached a low life level with that remark. i'll pay attention to something else now.

Suit yourself, since you alternate between being very decisive and thin skinned.  I have a fair handle on it.  I was in Sicily last July, a year ago.  There is 27% unemployment.  They are at the beach daily, with deep tans, and smoking under their umbrellas ... and I'm wondering how they put a roof over their heads and food on the table.  It's a mystery.  And, yes, the mistress as a third wheel is part of the culture and the more adventurous, influential and/or affluent guys want more than just their wives, and that's why their wives smoke like chimneys, too.  They are so functionally dysfunctional that it's a marvel.  But if anything that assesses a situation with candor and crassness bothers you, I could see why you'd turn your attention elsewhere.

Jun 28, 13 2:45 am


Aug 16, 15 6:53 am

First of all, the title of the article is strikingly nationalistic and infantile, would never have commented on it, but the interesting debate in comments drew my attention. I have been leaving in the USA for the past 6 years, moving here from Eastern Europe which is quite different from the Western Europe which I visited a lot. As an immigrant I love the USA for all the opportunities it gives to people; I saw friends, also immigrants, getting their degrees and becoming successful professionals, opening their businesses, probably it's harder to do so in Europe. Tolerance is the key of American culture. I also admire the human rights idea this country promotes.

But years of living here made me doubt that life in the USA is that great. The level of obsession with materialistic values and pursuit of money is striking! It is really all about dolllarzzzz here. You get 2 weeks of vacation in a year! Who on earth wants to live a life like that! Americans do! The level of education at schools is extremely low, I doubt that they ever learn anything there. I heard they do not teach geography at schools, only starting from college...?!? Really? As a woman who just gave a birth, I have only 2 months to stay at home? Isn't is crazy!? At the same time the minimal wage is soo low, there are so many people who survive only on a minimal wage...In the end who is this country for? I am not talking about gun violence and the fact that nothing is being done about it, why, because there is NRA that needs to keep getting wealthier. Why there is no mass solar and wind power stations implementation like in Europe? Because corporations need to keep making money. I don't even talk about politics, thanks to this country the whole Middle East is a mess now, which causes a huge refugee crisis in Europe...

And if you measure the quality of life by the size of a car and must be a very self-centered, uneducated person. I have been to many countries all over Europe and admire how people are to enjoy little things. In Europe you enjoy your life even if you are the gardener or maid, here, no chance to enjoy it without money...

Nov 6, 16 3:03 pm

^ Pray tell why are you here then?

Nov 6, 16 5:04 pm
Olaf Design Ninja_

archie, that's juliettek 's fist post on archinect on a thread 4 years old with the last post over a 1 years old. 

This is probably just really bad Russian propaganda or who knows the Ayatollah discovered twitter and inspired some middle easterner to pretend to be eastern European....or she could be a delusional democrat (not the republican HIllary).  not sure yet ;)

Nov 6, 16 8:51 pm

^ Makes sense

Nov 7, 16 12:56 am

I am an American and EU citizen and what I love about the US, especially as an architect, is the seriousness with which society takes its laws. Depending on where you are in Europe, people don't use the legal system to their advantage. Employees get screwed out of money, clients get screwed on time, employers get screwed on fees, and no one sues. What I dislike about the USA, is that we are on the other side of the spectrum, suing left and right, but at least we have a system under which we can fight for our rights and feel relatively confident that whatever the outcome, that we would have been presented with fair and amole opportunities to argue our case. Also, I completely agree that Europeans have set up an unspoken hierarchy of nations that to a large extent fosters discrimination. The French dislike the Italians; the Germans the French; the Brits fhe Irish and so on...I love the giant melting pot of the USA and believe it contributes to overall progress in a multifude of fields through a diverse exchange of perspectives and ideas. More homogeneous societies can only make local progress. Progress on an international and global scale happens through interaction with other societies. 

Nov 7, 16 7:20 am

"Europeans have set up an unspoken hierarchy of nations that to a large extent fosters discrimination. The French dislike the Italians; the Germans the French; the Brits fhe Irish and so on"


That's absolute bullshit, its just bants.


"I love the giant melting pot of the USA and believe it contributes to overall progress in a multifude of fields through a diverse exchange of perspectives and ideas" - Racial hate is everywhere.

Nov 7, 16 8:18 am

The USA is about to look a lot more like the EU after tomorrow...

Nov 7, 16 8:29 am

Nah, We don't have a Trump or Hillary, you keep that there.

Nov 7, 16 10:14 am

Would take trump/clinton over merkel/nigel farage/that EU clown any day. Good luck with the refugees btw...

Nov 7, 16 10:53 am

archietechie, Olaf Design Ninja_

It's unbelievable how you Americans always call the truth "propaganda"!))) You should have used this term for the call to unleash the war in Iraq, that eventually created this refugee disaster that's happening in Europe right now, and in the end you are wishing Europe good luck with it?!? Sick!

I am in the USA to learn about the world and myself, and it's been an empowering experience. Since I seriously started considering moving to Europe, due to the reasons mentioned above, I came across this nationalistic article. And, obviously, kept reading only because of some intelligent comments, definitely not coming from you. You are a product of the mass culture of this country, a victim. Read the history of your country, ignorant. 

Nov 7, 16 2:13 pm
Olaf Design Ninja_

you can't be serious. you came across this article?

Nov 7, 16 2:17 pm

It would've been nice if your little "empowering" experience didn't involve trampling on the country you're so happily reaping the benefits off of.

To be fair, it was merkel's fault for opening up so willingly to the refugees where other's are trying very hard not to. We probably would be more obliging too if their muslim brethren done the same.

Olaf's german btw, at least he's grateful not to bite the feeding hand. And...almost every country/state belonged to someone else's earlier, your point being?

Nov 7, 16 2:18 pm

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Nov 8, 16 5:13 am

archietechie - Nigel has no political power, the EU isn't a country like the USA. It's getting tiring when Americans consider Europe or the EU a country.

Your country is literally a country of refugees.

Nov 8, 16 5:30 am

I can see why someone so used to that 'ab'original life style of USA suburbia would write such a piece like this after living 3 months in Europe. Don't you also feel that you really don't need to own everything to enjoy life? Chances are Europeans would hate hanging out with someone of American mentality. I just love going to Europe and having a glimpse at life with some class. (Not caste kind of class) and things that make sense. Let alone the life style, I just wanted to say something about values. 

Whilst you enjoy your 4000 square ft house in suburbia, your entire country is left with parking lots after parking lots because that's all we North Americans need. And why do we even complain about the hideous cities we have all over the map?

Also, just to remind some of you guys, unlike what Trump always claims about China and their air pollution, the biggest carbon footprint per capita goes to USA and Canada (then Australia, New Zealand, etc.. you got the idea). If you are here part of Archinect Forum, I assume you are somehow associated with architecture and have heard of all the above issues. And you still value those things? I don't know what to tell you.

Know that if the whole world lives like an average North American for one day, we will see our eco system  collapse in the next decade. Thank god, there are poor countries, eh? Thank god, there are countries who take such things so much more seriously than us, like the ones you are complaining about. 

Mar 7, 17 11:06 pm

that's some  BULLSHIT!!!!!!

don't talk about us if you don't know us :p i could show you an howle other side ;) but that's how you are....  don't judge people without knowing how they realy are ;) when i read how you talk about us, just because one guy says how he feels thats stupid but you al believe one guy :p

come to europe and i wil show you the real deal not one retard that thinks he knows everiyhing after 3 years ;)

ciao :) 

Jun 14, 17 7:41 pm


Non Sequitur
This is a great thread.
Jun 15, 17 12:08 am

Not to mention the Freedom you enjoy in America. Europe is sadly an Orwellian police state.

Jun 15, 17 11:22 am

what happened to harold? is he living far more better now?

Jun 15, 17 11:44 am


Jun 16, 17 2:45 pm

What does Europe have that the "Far more better" USA doesn't?

Among other things, they learn Grammar, though perhaps the initial post learned Grammer at school instead?

Jun 18, 17 2:59 am

So many triggered...

Jun 18, 17 3:49 am

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